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F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 13:21
by gc
Reading the most recent issue of Combat Aircraft. The results of this air to air and ground strafe competition is surprising to say the least. Participating aircrafts are the F-15C, F-16, F-35A and A-10C.

Air to air scenario comprised of a two shot radar missile kill scenario and guns only BFM event. The F-35s participated with radar reflectors to give the vipers and eagle any chance. One would have expected the Lightning to dominate the radar missile fight and the viper to dominate the guns fight. But lo and behold, it was the opposite.

Re: F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 13:50
by spazsinbad
Four Page PDF from Combat Aircraft Mag'n Aug 2019 of 'Desert Storm' about HABOOB HAVOC by Joe Copalman is attached.

& earlier on da Picha thred: download/file.php?id=30789

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=54256&p=423148&hilit=renbarger#p423148

Image

Re: F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 14:46
by gc
Thanks Spaz for the article.

Re: F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 16:16
by marsavian
Isn't the most important takeaway is that the supposedly inaccurate F-35A gun shot down another fighter ;).

Re: F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 16:28
by sferrin
HaboobHavocAfterTheDustSettled.gif


"OH MAH GAWD SEE F-35 GETS SHOT DOWN BY F-16!!!!!"

Re: F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 16:28
by SpudmanWP
I am sure the "devil's in the details"....
--radar reflectors
--BFM setup
--HOBS restrictions
--etc

Re: F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 17:13
by sferrin
SpudmanWP wrote:I am sure the "devil's in the details"....
--radar reflectors
--BFM setup
--HOBS restrictions
--etc


How often do the usual suspects worry about little things like that?

Re: F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 17:17
by marsavian
4/1 for the F-15C, go F-15EX !! ;)

Re: F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 17:26
by zero-one
I noticed that the highest kill ratio seems to be a low 4:1 which is close to the early Vietnam era kill ratio of 3:1 which was considered Abysmal.

Why?
Are these exercises the sort where everything is set up to be as "fair" as possible.
-Radar reflectors
-Neutral merge set ups
-1 v 1, 2 v 2, 4 v 4 etc

Re: F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 17:35
by outlaw162
Isn't the most important takeaway is that the supposedly inaccurate F-35A gun shot down another fighter


Minor technicality, but this says nothing about the 'accuracy' of the actual gun. To determine that you would have to fire it. :shock:

(kill was probably determined either by gun camera assessment or some fancy TACTS pod datalink assessment, or both)

Re: F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 17:54
by SpudmanWP
outlaw162 wrote:To determine that you would have to fire it. :shock:

Live-Fire ground targets were part of the exercise so it's accuracy is easily demonstrated.

Re: F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 18:19
by outlaw162
so it's accuracy is easily demonstrated....


....to have been somewhat less than that of the A-10C. :D

Re: F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 18:29
by doge
I tried to search for "Lt Col. Daniel ‘Chip’n ’Daehler". 8) https://www.944fw.afrc.af.mil/News/Arti ... milestone/
He is a former F-16 pilot, and the F-35 boarding history seems to be the third year.
It's very very amazing to "Kill in only 34 seconds" the Dogfight king F-16. :applause:

I try to think about this in various ways. 8)
The impression of both fighter I know is...
    ・Both 9G.
    ・Acceleration is about the same.
    ・The turn is better with F-16.
    ・Low speed maneuverability is better with the F-35.
    ・Cockpit visibility is better with F-16.
What is the factor that divided the victory and defeat? I suppose.
    ・Enemy mistakes?
    ・F-35 is have, but F-16 is not have, Thanks to the slow maneuverability?
    ・Lt Col. Daniel ‘Chip’n ’Daehler was the crack top special Ace pilot?
    etc...
I do not know variously, Anyway...Great Excellent!!! :applause:

Re: F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 18:42
by sprstdlyscottsmn
outlaw162 wrote:
so it's accuracy is easily demonstrated....


....to have been somewhat less than that of the A-10C. :D

The GAU-8 is a laser beam while the M-61 is a shotgun. I don;t know what the dispersion is of the GAU-22.

Re: F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 19:39
by wrightwing
doge wrote:


I try to think about this in various ways. 8)
The impression of both fighter I know is...
    ・Both 9G.
    ・Acceleration is about the same.
    ・The turn is better with F-16.
    ・Low speed maneuverability is better with the F-35.
    ・Cockpit visibility is better with F-16.
What is the factor that divided the victory and defeat?


The only configuration where an F-16 has kinematic parity, is in an airshow configuration. Put any weapons/pods/EFTs on the F-16, and the F-35 will out accelerate, as well as enjoy better STR/ITR. The cockpit visibility is better in an F-16, but DAS provides better SA than Mk1 eyeballs.