F-35 performance at Haboob Havoc 2019

[SpudmanWP]

"Maybe" wingtip AIM-9X but certainly nothing pylon mounted or CFTs.

I'd bet the F-35 was not allowed to have the 9X either.

[sferrin]

so it's accuracy is easily demonstrated....

....to have been somewhat less than that of the A-10C.

How many planes did the A-10 shoot with it's gun?

[outlaw162]

The GAU-8 is a laser beam while the M-61 is a shotgun.

There was minimal dispersion with the M-61 on a stable platform like the A-7 or F-105. Even the SUU-23 pod would fire a fairly concentrated burst if mounted properly....and it helped if it was pointed in the right direction.

The GAU-22 has half the ROF of the M-61, so even with minimal dispersion, you get half the rounds out toward the target over the same firing period, albeit bigger, harder hitting rounds. Not so much a factor A/G as it is A/A.

That 34 seconds is impressive, but how soon we forget 40 second Boyd. That was 60 years ago and he started with his opponent 1000 feet behind him.

So we've dropped 6 seconds in 60 years as a measure of aerial gun employment progress.

[F-16ADF]

Big question is: Did the F-16's have tanks on? Willing to bet they did. Unless someone has a few pics from the event showing otherwise-




Also, F-15C's out of JRB NO aka "JZ" fight with VFA-204 Hornets from time to time. They know the slow speed alpha fight well.

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

Ah, but have they ever fought a Hornet "with four engines"?

[hythelday]

Quickest radar kill means little, but the fact that Eagles either scored more kills or died less isn't something to write home about for the F-35 drivers, unless there was some major disproportion regarding sorties flown. F-35 theoretically has heaps of SA advantage, and is supposedly a "Hornet with four engines" and "turns like a snowboard in powder snow" but still couldn't match F-15 in BFM? Seems strange given that in both "Heritage reports" F-15C pilots favored Eagle only in perch setup but overwhelmingly voted F-35A better at "close range".

[F-16ADF]

JZ guys fight the Navy Aggressor Hornets aka VFA-204, both are based in JRB New Orleans. As I said in the prior post, they aren't ignorant of the high AOA fight. Ultimately, it's the quality of the pilot.

[spazsinbad]

"A 20mm round from the M61 Vulcan 20mm cannon of this 310th FS ‘Tophats’ F-16D streaks past the canopy
during a low-angle strafe pass." Photo from four page PDF of article about 'HABOOB HAVOC' on previous page.

[F-16ADF]

And their jets are pretty old:


the FY 78 jet didn't even have all the front end mods.

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

Doesn't say what they got 4:1 against. Article says they went up to a predetermined point and "fought whatever was there" and that A-10s also participated. No AIM-9s at all. They wanted the event to be "easy and fun", this is not a Red Flag style competition.

Edit* it could be that unit smoked everything that wasn't an F-35 and lost against every F-35 they were up against. We don't know.

[spazsinbad]

Doesn't say what they got 4:1 against. Article says they went up to a predetermined point and "fought whatever was there" and that A-10s also participated. No AIM-9s at all. They wanted the event to be "easy and fun", this is not a Red Flag style competition.

Desert Storm [Haboob Havoc]
August 2019 Joe Copalman

"...organizers suggested those with minimal experience in dissimilar air combat training (DACT) be selected to utilize the competition as a training opportunity as well.

Head-to-head
The competition consisted of an air-to-air event, characterized by one-on-one dissimilar engagements, and an air-to-ground event that involved high-angle strafe and low-angle strafe on the manned ranges at the Goldwater Range. For the air air-to-air event, the focus was on dissimilar basic fighter maneuvering (BFM). Explaining how these match-ups worked, Maj Alex ‘Leeroy’ Esson, 56th FW weapons officer and exercise organizer told Combat Aircraft, ‘What we did was have two points that were 10-15 miles away from each other, so you show up at that point and you both turn in, and then you end up fighting whatever you get across from you. The whole idea was [to see] what is that other aircraft? Move in for a visual, decide what your advantages are, and see who could take better advantage of those.’ All aircraft types taking part in ‘Haboob Havoc’ engaged in the BFM engagements — even the A-10s.

The two possible means of achieving victory in the air-to-air engagement were either a two-shot radar missile ‘kill’ or a guns ‘kill.’ Though all aircraft had the capability to carry the AIM-9 Sidewinder infra-red-guided missile, Esson deliberately excluded it as an option during ‘Haboob Havoc 2019’. ‘I took Sidewinders out of it because then all the units who came in would have had to bring flares, which is annoying because flying over the continental US, you need to get permission for ordnance transfers. The whole point of the competition was to make it easy and fun. The other reason I did that is because it makes the fights a little bit more pure BFM. If you’re going to be fighting a Sidewinder that has a really high off-boresight capability, you have to fight a very different fight, and it’s not quite the raging BFM that would happen from only radar missiles and guns.’..."

Source: Combat Aircraft Magazine August 2019 Volume 20 Number 8

[outlaw162]

JZ guys fight the Navy Aggressor Hornets aka VFA-204, both are based in JRB New Orleans. As I said in the prior post, they aren't ignorant of the high AOA fight. Ultimately, it's the quality of the pilot.

These guys made their air-to-air reputation starting way back in their F-100 days. They were good....but back then they were not the Bayou Militia....they were the Coonass Militia.

Did the Eagles strafe?

[spazsinbad]

JZ guys fight the Navy Aggressor Hornets aka VFA-204, both are based in JRB New Orleans. As I said in the prior post, they aren't ignorant of the high AOA fight. Ultimately, it's the quality of the pilot.

These guys made their air-to-air reputation starting way back in their F-100 days. They were good....but back then they were not the Bayou Militia....they were the Coonass Militia.
Did the Eagles strafe?

Quote from reading the four page PDF arstickle available:

"...‘Haboob Havoc’, a gunnery competition named after Arizona’s summer dust storms and hosted by the 56th Fighter Wing at Luke AFB just outside Phoenix, is one of the few hold-outs when it comes to such events. Initially established in December 2011 by then-56th FW commanding officer Brig Gen J. D. Harris, ‘Haboob Havoc’ brings US Air Force fighter squadrons together for several days of competition in the form of one-on-one dogfighting and air-to-ground gunnery over the Barry M. Goldwater Range, as well as a golf competition and a hangar party....

...one F-15C pilot raised eyebrows by placing in the top three in high-angle strafe (the F-15s did not fly the low-angle strafe). As Esson recounted, ‘They had one pilot from the Louisiana Air National Guard, and they’re a really pushed-up unit. Most C-model units don’t strafe a lot, but they do it just to make sure their guns are actually working. They had one guy who had been a Strike Eagle pilot who switched over to the C-models, and he had the third best pass of the entire competition.’..."

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

Did the Eagles strafe?

An F-15C driver who used to fly F-15Es even took third in the high angle strafe.

[outlaw162]

A closet air-to-ground guy.

Low angle strafe is tough for an aircraft whose gun actually points up slightly. I 'spect their low angle strafe (had they) scores would have been lower than their golf scores.