The Hidden Troubles of the F-35 [DefenseNews]

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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quicksilver

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Unread post14 Jun 2019, 14:31

https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/692307.pdf

There’s the GAO report from last year. And, in the wake of that report there was a flood of ‘me too’ reporting on it by a variety of outlets — even ‘Popular Mechanics.’

Go back through the annual GAO and DOT&E annual reports. Count the number of pages in each successive F-35 section versus any other weapons system. Go to your search engine of choice and search F-16, F-18 or F-15 ‘development problems’ or GAO reports on same.

It doesn’t take much effort to get educated on the reality rather than the ‘popular opinion.’
Last edited by quicksilver on 14 Jun 2019, 14:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post14 Jun 2019, 14:41

“The point I am making is transparency would force the manufacturer to fix these issues fully and quickly.”

There are hundreds of USG employees who go to work in the LM plant every day for the purpose of monitoring Contractor compliance with all of the USG policy, rules and regulations that govern how a weapons system is designed and built, and how contracted dollars are spent toward those ends. Simultaneously, there are thousands of USG employees and service members who go to work every day at various test sites and other locations testing and verifying the performance of what has actually been designed and built — and they do so with access to greater information and with more fidelity than any aircraft program in the history of the planet. Every day.

None of these items are news.
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Unread post14 Jun 2019, 14:54

Here’s the link to dote annual reports —

https://www.dote.osd.mil/annual-report/index.html

Go to ‘DOD Programs’ and then ‘F-35’. Take your pick of annual reports.

Anyone claiming ‘lack of transparency’ hasn’t been paying full attention.

From the 2012 report (and I quote) —

“Horizontal tail surfaces are experiencing higher than expected temperatures during sustained high-speed/high-altitude flight, resulting in delamination and scorching of the surface coatings and structure. All variants were restricted from operations outside of a reduced envelope until the test team added instrumentation to the tailbooms to monitor temperatures on the tail surfaces. The program scheduled modification of one flight sciences aircraft of each variant with new skin coatings on the horizontal tail to permit flight testing in the currently restricted part of the high-speed/high-altitude flight envelope. The test team is adding more flight test instrumentation to help quantify the impacts of the tail heating to support necessary design changes. The program scheduled modifications on one aircraft (AF-2) to be completed in early 2013 to allow flight testing of the new skin design on the horizontal tails to proceed.”
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marsavian

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Unread post14 Jun 2019, 15:06

Quicksilver, thanks for your research which has added more information about this issue to f-16.net users. :thumb:
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quicksilver

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Unread post14 Jun 2019, 15:10

As they say, “...just keepin it real.”
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quicksilver

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Unread post14 Jun 2019, 15:17

So everyone...

Let’s circle back around to Defense News’ use of the term, “Hidden Troubles...”

Truth or modern day ‘yellow journalism’...?

Decide for yourself.

In this day and age in particular, it behooves us all to be discerning consumers of ‘news’ and information.
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Unread post14 Jun 2019, 15:21

marsavian wrote:Has the supersonic thermal issue or the oscillation at moderate AoA for F-35B/C ever been reported before despite being issues of many years standing ? First I have heard of either.

The 'thermal issue' has been reported upon years ago now with info somewhere on this forum. There are photos of bits of red tape stuff on affected area of test aircraft IIRC. The oscillations have been referenced in various ways but perhaps not in the same detail as outlined/summarised in a report we have not seen IIRC. Standby to Standby for a reference or 2....
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Unread post14 Jun 2019, 15:26

spazsinbad wrote:
marsavian wrote:Has the supersonic thermal issue or the oscillation at moderate AoA for F-35B/C ever been reported before despite being issues of many years standing ? First I have heard of either.

The 'thermal issue' has been reported upon years ago now with info somewhere on this forum. There are photos of bits of red tape stuff on affected area of test aircraft IIRC. The oscillations have been referenced in various ways but perhaps not in the same detail as outlined/summarised in a report we have not seen IIRC. Standby to Standby for a reference or 2....


Your internet service must be slow today. :wink:
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Unread post14 Jun 2019, 15:31

quicksilver wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:
marsavian wrote:Has the supersonic thermal issue or the oscillation at moderate AoA for F-35B/C ever been reported before despite being issues of many years standing ? First I have heard of either.

The 'thermal issue' has been reported upon years ago now with info somewhere on this forum. There are photos of bits of red tape stuff on affected area of test aircraft IIRC. The oscillations have been referenced in various ways but perhaps not in the same detail as outlined/summarised in a report we have not seen IIRC. Standby to Standby for a reference or 2....


Your internet service must be slow today. :wink:

You better believe it - NBN stands for Not Believable Now in my area (NBN = National Broadband Network) - no sign of it.

HEHEHEH - I'm uploading a youboob video which slows my internet to concrete drying speed otherwise so I missed all the good stuff previously posted by 'QS' starts here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=55673&p=421853&hilit=skin#p421853 apologies.
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smsgtmac

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Unread post15 Jun 2019, 01:32

juretrn wrote:I don'tthink the timing of this release is a coincidence. It seems the DoD is trying to grab LM by the balls, especially in regards to spare parts and maintainability.
Some tough love is needed- the program will be stronger for it.


Your suspicions aren't paranoia, but they are misdirected. The timing if the articles is a defensive move by the Faux-Military Reform INdustry in an attempt to shore up their position in the wake of mostly good news coming out about the F-35 lately. The reduced price of the F-35 was anticipated, and POGO just days before rolled out an updated screed on the F-35 by their rather lame point man Dan Grasier (not his all his fault-their points are lame), and from the article itself you can tell it should have been titled "Cub Girl Reporter Discovers How Airplane Sausage is Made: Spoon-fed by POGO".
--The ultimate weapon is the mind of man.
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Unread post15 Jun 2019, 01:42

spazsinbad wrote: I'll be kind. On previous page this thread is the same post: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=55673&p=421741&hilit=dump#p421741


I did say I didn't see it anywhere, I will look harder next time!
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spazsinbad

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Unread post15 Jun 2019, 01:46

Searching for key or unique words should find it. Always I have author/title+date on posts. Makes searching much easier.
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marsavian

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Unread post15 Jun 2019, 11:39

Reading the DoD reports this issue was not finally resolved until 2017.

https://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY ... f35jsf.pdf

F-35B Flight Sciences Assessment
- The program plans to complete F-35B flight sciences
testing by January 2018, enabling a military flight release
for the full Block 3F flight envelope in May 2018, but
delays are likely. As of the end of October 2017, the
program had over 500 test points remaining to complete
F-35B flight sciences testing.
- The following discoveries affected F-35B flight sciences
testing:
▪ Excessive heating on the horizontal tail surfaces limited
the time the aircraft could operate in afterburner at a
high Mach number to collect necessary strain load data.
To reach high Mach number test points, the program
designed and installed flight-test-unique horizontal tail
thermal barrier coatings on BF-3.
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Unread post15 Jun 2019, 12:08

marsavian wrote:Reading the DoD reports this issue was not finally resolved until 2017.

https://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY ... f35jsf.pdf

F-35B Flight Sciences Assessment
- The program plans to complete F-35B flight sciences
testing by January 2018, enabling a military flight release
for the full Block 3F flight envelope in May 2018, but
delays are likely. As of the end of October 2017, the
program had over 500 test points remaining to complete
F-35B flight sciences testing.
- The following discoveries affected F-35B flight sciences
testing:
▪ Excessive heating on the horizontal tail surfaces limited
the time the aircraft could operate in afterburner at a
high Mach number to collect necessary strain load data.
To reach high Mach number test points, the program
designed and installed flight-test-unique horizontal tail
thermal barrier coatings on BF-3.


And so what is your point? Should they have done it quicker? Do you work in aerospace? Do you have a degree in a materials science or advanced composites? What other test points were they pursuing using BF-3? Should they have taken BF-3 out of all the other flight sciences testing just to instrument the horizontal stab sooner? How do you know?

:roll:
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Unread post15 Jun 2019, 13:52

Smac’s observation above is a good reminder that in addition to some very sophisticated science(s), there is lotsa sausage making in aircraft development and developmental flight test. It is very, very complex and difficult stuff (they’re not building Toyotas) and in spite of all we humans know (or better, all we think we know), the ‘unknown’ and the ‘imperfect’ are always present — and it has never been otherwise. However, in the 21st century — the day and age of near ubiquity of information —that makes it (designing etc jets) more political because many use ‘the imperfect’ to exploit lay readers’ unfamiliarity with how it all gets done — design, development, build, test, and problem resolution.
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