Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2019, 13:26
by sferrin
(EDITOR’S NOTE: US Air Force F-35A fighters waited two weeks after landing at Al Dhafra air base, in the United Arab Emirates, before they carried out their first combat mission, dropping a single JDAM bomb against a cave – 32 months after reaching their Initial Operational Capabiity.
A two-week wait to hit a target that isn’t going anywhere is a bit of an anti-climax to the first US Air Force air strike using the F-35A, almost 20 years after the aircraft was selected for development.
Absent an explanation, and a rationale, the two-week wait before the air strike – whose result has not been released – suggests that it was unforeseen, which prompts speculation that it may have caused by a maintenance issue.
Sending two aircraft to drop a single bomb isn’t an impressive feat to recount, especially as in the absence of any opposition requiring the aircraft’s claimed “stealth,” any aircraft could have dropped the same bomb at a far lesser cost.
In fact, the Air Force went out of its way to demonstrate that stealth was not needed for the mission by fitting Luneburg reflectors to each wing, and by carrying Sidewinder missiles on the outboard weapon stations, which multiply their radar cross-section and thus make the aircraft very visible on radar.)


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... -cave.html

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2019, 15:51
by SpudmanWP
Is anyone surprised that he took May 1st off?

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2019, 18:00
by viper12
Giovanni de Briganti as editor. 'Nuff said.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2019, 19:32
by quicksilver
viper12 wrote:Giovanni de Briganti as editor. 'Nuff said.


Yep. One who is dead set on finding problems will usually find some — often, in spite of the reality.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2019, 20:17
by citanon
That's almost as stupid as this one:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/ ... martin/amp

Or is it more stupid? I can't tell.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2019, 21:27
by viper12
Is it me or the Express' article tries to complete a bingo card of falsehoods ? I think they got an average of at least one falsehood/misleading statement per sentence...

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2019, 21:43
by juretrn
They literally went to this question
https://www.quora.com/Is-an-F-22-Raptor ... n-the-F-35
and took the top three answers. That's it. Quality reporting!

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2019, 22:08
by SpudmanWP
This is golden

At Red Flag the F-22 has a roughly 100:1 kill ratio against F-16s, while the F-35 so far has about 20:1 against F-16 opponents. This suggests a big superiority for air-to-air combat for the F-22, which is what you would expect.


Someone should let them know that the 100:1 is across multiple exercises and the 20:1 is just a single one.

But hey, the maths is hard....

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2019, 22:28
by marsavian
It is quite sad that in the internet age with more data at everyone's disposal the quality of professional journalism had actually gone down significantly. Perhaps they lack the intelligence to filter the signal from all the noise out there.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2019, 04:32
by krieger22
marsavian wrote:It is quite sad that in the internet age with more data at everyone's disposal the quality of professional journalism had actually gone down significantly. Perhaps they lack the intelligence to filter the signal from all the noise out there.


The people running the financial side of newsrooms don't want to spend on hiring people who know what they're talking about, and those who do know what they're talking about tend to get headhunted by organizations other than news sites.

Or it's there, but it's paywalled. All the Wall Street Journal articles about the latest revelations regarding the 737 MAX are all paywalled. A dumpster fire of an IEEE Spectrum article on it? Free access! Guess what people are going to read.

viper12 wrote:Is it me or the Express' article tries to complete a bingo card of falsehoods ? I think they got an average of at least one falsehood/misleading statement per sentence...


It's not called the Daily Sexpress for nothing. The British tabloid press is to be trusted under literally no circumstances.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2019, 05:03
by spazsinbad
"...It's not called the Daily Sexpress for nothing. The British tabloid press is to be trusted under literally no circumstances."
It is truly awful. Sadly the formerly Oz Newstrash Typoon MurderDoc has a lot to answer for the wrapper rubbish <sigh>.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2019, 13:35
by sferrin
Flight Data Recorder from Japan's Crashed F-35A Retrieved, But Key Data Still Missing (excerpt)

The Defense Ministry has retrieved part of the flight data recorder from a F-35A stealth fighter that went missing last month, but it was heavily damaged and did not include a storage device to record speed and altitude data, Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya told reporters Tuesday.

(EDITOR’S NOTE: This article mentions, just in passing, that the F-35’s flight recorder “did not include a storage device to record speed and altitude data,” a stunning omission on an aircraft that has been hailed for 20 years as the most sophisticated fighter ever built.
Conveniently for its backers, this means that the causes of the unexplained incident will probably never be ascertained, and therefore will not further degrade the aircraft’s reputation.)


Of course it's Giovanni de Briganti.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2019, 16:42
by SpudmanWP
lol.. like "speed and altitude" would tell it "why" it crashed as opposed to the speed it was going when it crashed... :doh:

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2019, 19:22
by spazsinbad
Thanks 'sferrin' "part of" indeed. :devil: When will Briganti discover his loose screws? Under the nearest lamppost I guess. :doh:

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2019, 19:52
by SpudmanWP
Is it just me or did the original news post say that it was the recording media that was not found and not that the data was not recorded. But hey, I'm just the kind of guy that wants to get down to the facts of the case rather than just reading headline :roll:

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2019, 04:10
by Dragon029
Correct, what they found was a very badly damaged flight data recorder with the storage medium (the solid state drives or whatever) missing.

This will make investigator's life a lot harder, but (if I'm not misunderstanding an F-35 maintainer I've spoken with) the F-35A's black box is apparently stored in the base of the left vertical stabiliser (presumably in the avionics bay back there, near the rear-lower MADL arrays), so the fact that it's basically been destroyed would suggest that this might have been a rather high speed crash.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2019, 04:23
by optimist
spazsinbad wrote:
"...It's not called the Daily Sexpress for nothing. The British tabloid press is to be trusted under literally no circumstances."
It is truly awful. Sadly the formerly Oz Newstrash Typoon MurderDoc has a lot to answer for the wrapper rubbish <sigh>.

What is really funny, is the little boy from Adelaide. Helping his dad's small volume, daily rag. Has gone on to be the puppet master of the right wing, in an influential country. He is in effect, the most powerful man in the world.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2019, 07:20
by XanderCrews
krieger22 wrote:
marsavian wrote:It is quite sad that in the internet age with more data at everyone's disposal the quality of professional journalism had actually gone down significantly. Perhaps they lack the intelligence to filter the signal from all the noise out there.


The people running the financial side of newsrooms don't want to spend on hiring people who know what they're talking about, and those who do know what they're talking about tend to get headhunted by organizations other than news sites.

Or it's there, but it's paywalled. All the Wall Street Journal articles about the latest revelations regarding the 737 MAX are all paywalled. A dumpster fire of an IEEE Spectrum article on it? Free access! Guess what people are going to read.

viper12 wrote:Is it me or the Express' article tries to complete a bingo card of falsehoods ? I think they got an average of at least one falsehood/misleading statement per sentence...


It's not called the Daily Sexpress for nothing. The British tabloid press is to be trusted under literally no circumstances.



“Most of the outlets are reporting on world events from Washington. The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old, and their only reporting experience consists of being around political campaigns. That’s a sea change. They literally know nothing.”
Ben Rhodes, Obama advisor.

The don't have the money to have foreign bureaus anymore.

before the phrase "fake news" took off I was trying to articulate the click bait dunning krueger examples I saw everywhere. Tyler Rogoaway being one of them, but david axe is another prime example.

People may not like Trump, but hes 100 percent right on the sorry state of the media. And they're completely clueless that they're clueless. Thats how they blew one of the biggest stories of the 21st century:

Image

And the irony of that, is no one should be more mad than the left.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2019, 15:42
by krieger22
Funny you mention Ben Rhodes, since he's also been a pretty spectacular symptom of that ever since leaving the White House. Still, there's got to be something inspiring about someone with a creative writing degree of all things directing government policy...

Anyway, back on topic

Image

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2019, 15:48
by optimist
Bring it on. I want to see TOP GUN II

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2019, 16:44
by XanderCrews
krieger22 wrote:Funny you mention Ben Rhodes, since he's also been a pretty spectacular symptom of that ever since leaving the White House. Still, there's got to be something inspiring about someone with a creative writing degree of all things directing government policy...

Anyway, back on topic

Image



Why didn't the navy just invest in 300 million dollar a piece hybrids of F-14/F-22?! If it only it had don'e that we could have 12 carriers sharing about 200 fighters right now!!!

Looks like that "f-14" has had a lot more than a FBW upgrade too...

Image

Why navy so dumb?!

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2019, 17:43
by sferrin
Dragon029 wrote:Correct, what they found was a very badly damaged flight data recorder with the storage medium (the solid state drives or whatever) missing.


I take it the storage medium is not actually part of the data recorder? Is that normal? :|

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2019, 19:22
by SpudmanWP
Crash analysis is not the primary reason for the military data recorders.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2019, 21:45
by Dragon029
sferrin wrote:
Dragon029 wrote:Correct, what they found was a very badly damaged flight data recorder with the storage medium (the solid state drives or whatever) missing.


I take it the storage medium is not actually part of the data recorder? Is that normal? :|

I'm under the understanding that it is (what is a flight data recorder if not something that records data); the thing was just that badly damaged.

This is what we're apparently talking about; the F-35's "Crash Survivable Memory Unit" (CSMU):

Image

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2019, 22:11
by SpudmanWP
So.. maybe they found the "data collector" but not the CSMU that it used to store the data?

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2019, 22:38
by Dragon029
It's being reported / described as the "flight data recorder" with descriptions like:

Takeshi Iwaya, Japan’s defence minister, said that the search has found some components of the crashed jet at the bottom of the ocean. However, the flight data recorder was damaged and memory chips that could contain a record of the accident have not yet been located.


https://www.ft.com/content/5a263c2c-709 ... 68069fbd15

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 09 May 2019, 01:18
by spazsinbad
Dragon029 wrote:It's being reported / described as the "flight data recorder" with descriptions like:

Takeshi Iwaya, Japan’s defence minister, said that the search has found some components of the crashed jet at the bottom of the ocean. However, the flight data recorder was damaged and memory chips that could contain a record of the accident have not yet been located.


https://www.ft.com/content/5a263c2c-709 ... 68069fbd15

Any chance of getting most of the appropriate text excerpted here please - otherwise non-subscribers see nothing. TIA.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 09 May 2019, 08:25
by marsavian
More from that FT article

Japan has recovered part of the flight data recorder from an F-35 stealth fighter that crashed almost a month ago, but the fuselage with its highly sensitive technology is still missing. Mr Iwaya said that the Kaimei, a marine survey ship operated by Japan’s education ministry, and the deep sea diving ship Van Gogh, chartered by the US Navy, have joined Japanese minesweepers in the search.

“Based on information collected by Kaimei and after confirmation on the seabed by the Van Gogh, we’ve identified components of the F-35A including part of the flight data recorder,” said Mr Iwaya. “This portion of the flight data recorder has been raised by the Van Gogh, and the ministry and self-defence forces are now examining it, but thus far the crucial memory — the recording media — has not been discovered.”

The search continues, said Mr Iwaya. “The ministry and self-defence forces, working closely with these various vessels, will carry on searching for the missing pilot and fuselage, in order to recover them and establish the cause of the accident,” he said.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2019, 22:24
by SpudmanWP
Convenient how he has completely ignored the $1.3 Billion that Canada has already secured and that ONLY Partners and NOT FMS customers can bid on Partner purchased F-35s, not to mention the FMS fees that FMS customers pay. I would love to debate him, but my parents taught me not to beat up the mentally retarded.

So, the Canadian government has backed down, and is changing the rules of its new fighter competition to allow Lockheed Martin to compete with the F-35 – the only aircraft that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau promised that Canada would never buy.
This Canadian about-turn also confirms one of the anomalies of the F-45 Joint Strike Fighter program: partner countries -- which have paid a share of the aircraft’s $66.2 billion development – cannot benefit from the offsets that are available to countries that buy the aircraft off-the-shelf, through the Foreign Military Sales program.

In other words, Canada has accepted the risk of obtaining no offsets on its largest-ever defense purchase, so writing off a potential economic gain of C$ 15 billion to C$19 billion.)

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/artic ... 5-bid.html

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2019, 15:10
by krieger22
The Canadian-Swedish Joint Cope Project

Image

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2019, 16:04
by sferrin
krieger22 wrote:The Canadian-Swedish Joint Cope Project

Image


Ye Gods. Who's this, "Erik Elmgren" imbecile?

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2019, 16:33
by SpudmanWP
Once again proving that denial ain't just a river in Egypt :doh:

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2019, 19:27
by magitsu
Just another Swede brought up with a generous helping of Saab kool aid. Bio says that he's sailing, currently in the Caribbean.

His father(?) Bosse Elmgren (over 85 years old anyway) seems to have been a newspaper editor, social democrat, and once served as Sweden's ombudsman (body of complaint which protects individuals against abuses of power). http://nordics.info/show/artikel/preview-ombudsman-1/

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 14:17
by sferrin
(EDITOR’S NOTE: Interesting to see that, 19 years into its development program and 13 years after its first flight, the F-35 is still unable – or unwilling – to fly through bad weather.
These aircraft, which left Hill AFB on Wednesday, spent two nights (Wednesday and Thursday) at Burlington Airport, in Vermont, although the Associated Press reported, “The airport expects the jets to remain in Burlington for a day.”
They finally took off from Burlington on Friday morning, May 31, on their way to Switzerland, but they only arrived at Payerne air base at dusk on Saturday night – over 30 hours later.
In other words, they disappeared from the public eye for 24 hours.
Did they stop somewhere? Why?
The four F-35s are to be evaluated in Payerne by the Swiss Air Force as candidates for its Air 2030 next-generation fighter competition.)


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... rland.html

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 16:57
by blindpilot
sferrin wrote:(EDITOR’S NOTE: Interesting to see that, 19 years into its development program and 13 years after its first flight, the F-35 is still unable – or unwilling – to fly through bad weather.
...)


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... rland.html


I sometimes would like to tie some of these "editors" to a stake in Oklahoma this month and see if they are unable ... or is it unwilling ... to face the driving rains of floods, tornados, just good old midwest thunderstorms ...

I recall many times I was "able" to challenge the weather, in what turned out to be idiotic foolish efforts. Some I had no choice, others were just plain poor judgement for which I probably should have been grounded. I took a T-38 "above FL 400" to get over a building thunderstorm, flew out of Texas in storms from hell and dragged 4 F-4's through a wall of hell in the Pacific ... etc. etc.

I was technically "able." The T-38 climbed like a bat out of hell, (still slower than a thunderstorm though). The old 707 airframe was overbuilt like a brick sh... F-4s were bricks :D

However even those flying hurricane hunters are often "unwilling" to test mother nature. That's esecially true of simple peace time deployments. Take a day at the O Club bar, take in a movie ... try again tomorrow. Mother Nature is NOT to be fooled with.

FWIW
BP

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 17:05
by quicksilver
X2

I’m having a Pavlovian reaction as I recall same... (the ‘challenging the wx’ part with or without better judgment)

It’s not good to mess w Mother Nature. :wink:

Wasn’t it Scott Crossfield who morted in a t-storm down south somewhere?

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 17:10
by SpudmanWP
It was an issue with the tanker not wanting to fly in bad weather (or was just not available), not the F-35.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 17:14
by quicksilver
SpudmanWP wrote:It was an issue with the tanker not wanting to fly in bad weather (or was just not available), not the F-35.



My guess is it was about wx divert requirements for the translant; the ‘rules’ are typically conservative and there is no/little latitude to waiver from the requirements specified in the instruction.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 18:16
by outlaw162
...tie some of these "editors" to a stake in Oklahoma this month...


In one respect, the Okie Wx is a good thing. It tends to discourage relocation to OK. Very little unwelcome 'overcrowding' here. And a natural population leveler (offset by teen pregnancy rate to some extent).

Just about the time of year to reposition the 'stake' to the Gulf Coast. :shock:

Compliments, good post.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 18:30
by kimjongnumbaun
In regards to weather, as my IP said, just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s smart.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 21:33
by viper12
Oh my. What is Briganti smoking ?

And yes, Scott Crossfield died because of thunderstorms : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Sc ... ield#Death

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 15:55
by SpudmanWP
(EDITOR’S NOTE: So the pilot of what is claimed to be the most advanced combat aircraft in the world crashes into the sea because of “spatial disorientation,” but it “doesn’t count as pilot error” and there also was “no problem with the aircraft.”
Yet it crashed, killing its pilot, Maj. Akinori Hosomi, 41.
It is now for the manufacturer to explain how an aircraft claimed to have the world’s most advanced situation awareness capabilities could disorient its pilot – a veteran pilot of jet fighters, with over 3,200 flight hours, about 60 of them on the F-35 – to the point of diving into the water at “683 mph.”
The JASDF doesn’t explain how it determined the impact speed since the flight data recorder it recovered “was heavily damaged and the storage medium was missing.”.)


$5 says he never read the English translation of the report or even bothers to ready an analysis of the report.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 18:43
by mixelflick
SpudmanWP wrote:Once again proving that denial ain't just a river in Egypt :doh:



"F-35, a good light bomber...".

Do these guys know about its 15-1 or 20-1 kill ratios at Red Flag? Or do you think they just dismiss such things? The 2019 demo is a great start, but I fear the general public is going to need more to change their opinion.

Unfortunately, Congressmen can sometimes be included among those who think like this...

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 20:11
by ricnunes
mixelflick wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Once again proving that denial ain't just a river in Egypt :doh:



Or do you think they just dismiss such things?


Yes, that's exactly what I think :wink:

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 02:09
by spazsinbad
Does Turkey really want the F-35 fighter jets?
12 Jun 2019 Nedret Ersanel

“The F-35 fighter jets are not as strategic as the S-400s. Their performance in aerial operations is 60 percent, their rate of meeting the performance expected of them for all tasks is 27 percent. Also, they are under U.S. control and can easily be manipulated. Furthermore, these aircraft are very expensive. Their maintenance and operation are quite difficult. Their useful load, bomb-missile carry capacity is inadequate. We met with the air forces personnel as well. I also think they are bulky aircraft. F-35 will not add anything to Turkey, but it is extremely important for the U.S.” [“Hakurk ile Kandil bağı kesilecek” (Hakurk’s Qandil ties will be severed), June 10, Hürriyet.]


"Former General Staff Chief of Intelligence and retired Lt. Gen. İsmail Hakkı Pekin’s “bolded” words require extra attention.... [can oath]

Source: https://www.yenisafak.com/en/columns/ne ... ts-2047065

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 03:47
by XanderCrews
sferrin wrote:
krieger22 wrote:The Canadian-Swedish Joint Cope Project

Image


Ye Gods. Who's this, "Erik Elmgren" imbecile?


How many fighter producers does Sweden have again? Wouldn't want a monopoly...

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 08:24
by energo
sferrin wrote: In other words, they disappeared from the public eye for 24 hours.
l


Rouge cloud?

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2019, 01:54
by white_lightning35
https://futurism.com/the-byte/us-milita ... -unflyable
Posted 1 day ago

https://www.thedailybeast.com/america-i ... cant-fight
Posted 2 hours ago

Is no one else amazed the Lockheed has managed to drop the price of each f-35 by 600 billion dollars in one day? That's incredible! Thanks for reporting on this, trustworthy and accurate news media!

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 21:16
by SpudmanWP
Yahoo news is quickly approaching NI's level of ClickBait. It does not help that they keep republishing NI's articles, even the ones that say that they are over a year old. :doh:

https://news.yahoo.com/f-35-trouble-dis ... 00940.html

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2019, 21:37
by spazsinbad
BUTT ITS NEWS! Yahoo must define news as in RIP VAN WINKLE news definition or perhaps ZOMBIE NEWS - it RISE UP! :devil:

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2019, 04:12
by SpudmanWP
This problem extends to new and old platforms alike. The air readiness of the Air Force’s version of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), a platform already hampered by massive cost overruns and delays, dropped by five percent in FY 2018 compared to FY 2017. Less than 50 percent of the service’s 148 JSFs achieved a mission-capable rating in FY 2018.

https://www.cagw.org/thewastewatcher/ai ... -continues

In the article, they only cite FY2017 and FY2018 numbers. Gee, I wonder why?

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2019, 04:25
by spazsinbad
Interesting AFtimes article from which buttyHurty came: https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... o-improve/

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2019, 13:30
by sferrin
"(EDITOR’S NOTE: Contrary to what is stated above, there is nothing ‘curious’ about the fact that the F-35 was designed without chaff or IR flare launchers.

Since its stealthy design was claimed to make the F-35 invisible to radar, there was clearly no need for active countermeasures like chaff to protect it from radar. This same reasoning explains why no other US Air Force ‘stealth’ aircraft, from the F-117 to the F-22 and B-2, are not fitted with any.

By the same logic, the fact that chaff is now planned to be retrofitted to the F-35A merely confirms that, a quarter-century since it was designed, ‘stealth’ is no longer a sufficient guarantee of the F-35A’s survival in combat – if it ever was.

And this clearly poses a major problem, since ‘stealth’ is the promise that justified the aircraft’s many design limitations in terms of speed, range and weapon payload.

If ‘stealth’ is no longer the combat asset its manufacturer has long claimed to justify these limitations, the F-35A becomes just another aircraft with mediocre performance – but with a high sticker price and huge operating costs.) "


Because the F-35 is getting chaff dispensers. :roll: (Like the F-22 has had since day one. )

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/artic ... nough.html

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2019, 15:05
by ricnunes
Jesus Christ!! That guy above (the "editor" of the article above) is a walking brain fart!! :doh: :bang: :roll:

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2019, 15:50
by quicksilver
The F-35 (all variants) have always had expendable RF/IR countermeasures (chaff and flares). The recent announcement was about the planned addition of advanced versions thereof; ‘upgrades’ if you will, as part of c2d2.

From 2006...

https://www.aviationtoday.com/2006/04/0 ... rotection/

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2019, 15:55
by ricnunes
So "brain fart" squared.
No, make it better: "brain fart" cubed! :roll:

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2019, 16:53
by spazsinbad
ricnunes wrote:So "brain fart" squared.
No, make it better: "brain fart" cubed! :roll:

That clown Giovanni de Briganti at DEFaero is a real fake "NEWSmaker".

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2019, 17:50
by garrya
ricnunes wrote:Jesus Christ!! That guy above (the "editor" of the article above) is a walking brain fart!! :doh: :bang: :roll:

Not a big surprise
D66414C8-E28E-4B6F-B542-663E80A63F18.jpeg

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2019, 20:41
by ricnunes
Ok, it's explained - Giovanni de Briganti!

So and actually that's a "brain fart" elevated by a factor of four (4) or more :roll:

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2019, 21:34
by hythelday
What are the chances that the new chaff is not actually "chaff"but something more akin to "Gremlin" drones?



I mean those are not terribly large.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 16 Oct 2019, 17:50
by notkent
All the F-35 critics don't seem like they have much to say lately.
Some of them must have gotten caught up in that "death spiral" they were always warning about.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 16 Oct 2019, 18:10
by XanderCrews
sferrin wrote:"(EDITOR’S NOTE: Contrary to what is stated above, there is nothing ‘curious’ about the fact that the F-35 was designed without chaff or IR flare launchers.

Since its stealthy design was claimed to make the F-35 invisible to radar, there was clearly no need for active countermeasures like chaff to protect it from radar. This same reasoning explains why no other US Air Force ‘stealth’ aircraft, from the F-117 to the F-22 and B-2, are not fitted with any.

By the same logic, the fact that chaff is now planned to be retrofitted to the F-35A merely confirms that, a quarter-century since it was designed, ‘stealth’ is no longer a sufficient guarantee of the F-35A’s survival in combat – if it ever was.

And this clearly poses a major problem, since ‘stealth’ is the promise that justified the aircraft’s many design limitations in terms of speed, range and weapon payload.

If ‘stealth’ is no longer the combat asset its manufacturer has long claimed to justify these limitations, the F-35A becomes just another aircraft with mediocre performance – but with a high sticker price and huge operating costs.) "


Because the F-35 is getting chaff dispensers. :roll: (Like the F-22 has had since day one. )

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/artic ... nough.html


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me write airplane things!!

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Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 16 Oct 2019, 18:22
by ricnunes
Actually, I have a sort of a request for the community here:
Please, let's not waste any time and bytes giving Giovanni "Brain Fart" de Briganti any kind of notoriety from now on. :wink:

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 21 Oct 2019, 00:44
by boogieman
Isn't he on the Dassault payroll? Thought I heard that somewhere. Would explain a lot...

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 21 Oct 2019, 01:31
by Corsair1963
With so much "disinformation" spread over the web everyday. This has to be a concerted effort by the Chinese, Iranians, North Koreans, and Russians. In order to weaken the F-35 Program and the Western Defense Establishment in General.


Even the French are suspect in my opinion. Especially, as it relates to the F-35! :shock:

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 21 Oct 2019, 14:40
by ricnunes
Corsair1963 wrote:With so much "disinformation" spread over the web everyday. This has to be a concerted effort by the Chinese, Iranians, North Koreans, and Russians. In order to weaken the F-35 Program and the Western Defense Establishment in General.


Even the French are suspect in my opinion. Especially, as it relates to the F-35! :shock:



Yes, I would say that the European military aerospace in general (namely Dassault/French government, Airbus and Saab) have their share of responsibility regarding the "disinformation" spread about the F-35 program. They (European military aerospace) probably see this as a means to be able to keep/continue "in service" when it comes to fighter aircraft since probably for the first time in the history of military aviation the Europeans don't have anything that can rivalize with US fighter aircraft - this case the F-35 - this either by technical specs/capability or by price cost (or both).

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2019, 11:26
by krieger22
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"Look, we have to spend more effort on ECM than an F-22 or F-35, and here's why it's a good thing."

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2019, 12:46
by notkent
Now I am getting confused, was told by the F-35 critics that;

Speed is the new stealth
Small low cost fighters are the new 6th generation
Maneuverability is the new stealth when everyone has stealth fighters
Now its ECM is the new stealth - they do know that the F-35 has ECM capabilities?

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2019, 20:49
by ricnunes
Oh no, not this "Active Stealth" BS again! :doh:

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2019, 06:43
by boilermaker
ricnunes wrote:Oh no, not this "Active Stealth" BS again! :doh:


Looking at the history of the efforts to scramble the signals of IEDs from mere goat humpers armed with walky talkies, and the difficulties they had to deal with, any sort of active stealth to me needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I think a dedicated team aircraft equiped with a suite like the EA-6 Prowler would be what is needed. A pod wont cut it.

It probably works in some configurations but it probably limits the craft's own communication and radar picture, and it probably is limited in scope and can be detectable via passive means.

It is an intersting research but still in its infancy, imo, in terms of fielding and provability. I would be hard pressed to see this pod tested at Red Flag and hear F35 pilots say they were caught unawares by a Grippen...

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2019, 20:13
by ricnunes
boilermaker wrote:It is an intersting research but still in its infancy, imo, in terms of fielding and provability. I would be hard pressed to see this pod tested at Red Flag and hear F35 pilots say they were caught unawares by a Grippen...


There's nothing fancy and in its infancy regarding this. There's no such thing as Active Stealth. There's ECM/Jamming pods and that's all this is -> A more powerful defensive jamming pod with probably/likely some Electronic Attack capabilities.
As such there's nothing special about this being a technology in its infancy and in need to prove any new capabilities.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2019, 20:18
by sprstdlyscottsmn
A Barracuda suite can hide blue F-16s from red F-16s without being detected itself. That is as operationally close to "active stealth" as you can get. It's here now, and it is not in a pod.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2019, 20:36
by ricnunes
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:A Barracuda suite can hide blue F-16s from red F-16s without being detected itself. That is as operationally close to "active stealth" as you can get. It's here now, and it is not in a pod.


Yes, and aircraft like the Growler can do similar things, although the F-35 is likely more effective since it can get closer to the enemy radar sources (due to stealth).

But something tells me that since "Jamming" is "Active" that it can be counter-detected (as opposed to "passive"/real stealth).

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2019, 21:06
by sprstdlyscottsmn
ricnunes wrote:But something tells me that since "Jamming" is "Active" that it can be counter-detected (as opposed to "passive"/real stealth).

Absolutely. That becomes a battle of "how discreetly can my jammer work to not trigger the other guys EW?" which I would think is a function of the RCS being hidden and range. Hiding an F-35 is childs play, hiding an F-16 isn't too hard, but hiding a B-52 might well be impossible for a Barracuda.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 15 Nov 2019, 20:48
by lbk000
Just waiting for when they'll be calling the F-35 out for not having a 1:1 KDR.

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Losing is the new winning -- how can your enemy ever defeat you if you beat them to it?

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2019, 05:05
by kimjongnumbaun
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2019, 09:29
by hornetfinn
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
ricnunes wrote:But something tells me that since "Jamming" is "Active" that it can be counter-detected (as opposed to "passive"/real stealth).

Absolutely. That becomes a battle of "how discreetly can my jammer work to not trigger the other guys EW?" which I would think is a function of the RCS being hidden and range. Hiding an F-35 is childs play, hiding an F-16 isn't too hard, but hiding a B-52 might well be impossible for a Barracuda.


You are correct that jamming effectiveness (required jamming power) is a function of RCS and range. Naturally there are other things that affect jamming effectiveness like jamming type and techical capabilties of jammer and radar.

I don't think that hiding even a B-52 would be impossible for Barracuda depending on radar, but it would require jammer to be closer and/or B-52 being further away from the radar than when protecting F-16. If we assume that B-52 has 100 times higher RCS than F-16 and F-35 doing stand-off jamming from 100 km away from the radar and let's say it can mask the F-16 until it gets 50 km away from the radar. Then B-52 would be masked further than about 160 km away from the radar if my quick calculation is correct. Or in other words the F-35 doing jamming would need to be about 15 km away from the radar to mask a B-52 50 km away from the radar.

The importance of low RCS is clear when F-35 could get to something like 5 km from the radar in the above example. We have to remember than frontal RCS of F-16 is actually a lot closer to B-52 than it is to F-35.

Of course putting more wattage in jammer system can also give added effectiveness but B-52 would require 100 times more power than F-16 for the same performance. Or possibly something like million times more power than F-35! :shock:

I can easily see why F-35 is said to be so very powerful jamming system. VLO stealth means it can get a lot closer to threat radars than almost any other aircraft with significant jamming capabilities. That directly multiplies the effects of jamming. Naturally the sensor system and excellent SA gives ability to position the aircraft to advantageous position without revealing itself.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2019, 15:41
by ricnunes
kimjongnumbaun wrote:Active stealthis what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.


DITTO!

P.S - Can I use your post/sentence as my new signature?

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 05:10
by kimjongnumbaun
ricnunes wrote:
kimjongnumbaun wrote:Active stealthis what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.


DITTO!

P.S - Can I use your post/sentence as my new signature?



Please do.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 11:25
by ricnunes
kimjongnumbaun wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
kimjongnumbaun wrote:Active stealthis what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.


DITTO!

P.S - Can I use your post/sentence as my new signature?



Please do.


Thanks :thumb:

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 12:08
by hornetfinn
ricnunes wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:A Barracuda suite can hide blue F-16s from red F-16s without being detected itself. That is as operationally close to "active stealth" as you can get. It's here now, and it is not in a pod.


Yes, and aircraft like the Growler can do similar things, although the F-35 is likely more effective since it can get closer to the enemy radar sources (due to stealth).

But something tells me that since "Jamming" is "Active" that it can be counter-detected (as opposed to "passive"/real stealth).


Yes it is and larger output power and nondirectional transmissions make it easier to detect. Of course jamming techniques used also affect this.

Required output power is basically directly proportional to RCS of the object to be protected by the jammer. To "hide" a VLO aircraft like F-35 which is said to have RCS of something like -40 dB or better, required jamming power is at least 4 orders of magnitude lower than what is required to hide a non-VLO fighter aircraft. Very likely the difference is even larger especially considering that radars have trouble detecting and tracking so low RCS targets even without any EW effects. This is because it requires extreme sensitivity and signal purity to filter out such targets.

Actually F-35 likely has easily the best "active stealth" of all aircraft due to having excellent passive stealth properties (so only very low power is required) and highly directional jamming system making it very difficult for ESM systems to pick up the jamming signals. They can definitely use slowly increasing noise jamming at very, very low power levels when they go closer to threat radar. It would be difficult to detect the jamming signals and radar system would start compensating for the increased background noise. Background noise levels fluctuate a lot from natural phenomena and it would be very difficult to tell that kind of jamming from natural sources. When the radar compensates for the background noise levels, it becomes less sensitive as it has to have large enough Signal to Noise ratio to work effectively.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 12:52
by ricnunes
Thanks for the heads up and detailed explanation hornetfinn :thumb:

So basically, not only "Active Stealth" is BS since in fact it's ECM/EW (but this I already knew for ages) but the fact is that even in the "Active Stealth department" the F-35 is still stealthier and much better! Someone should forward this to all the "brilliant minds" claiming "Active Stealth" lurking out there, specially those "living" on the planets Saab and Dassault...

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 13:08
by hornetfinn
You're welcome! :D

Yes, for "Active Stealth" (ECM/EW) to work well, having Passive Stealth is extremely beneficial. I think nobody really even understands just how powerful combo the VLO passive stealth with high powered and very directional EW system (especially in fire control radar frequencies) is. We are talking about several orders of magnitude difference. Not forgetting Situational Awareness which helps to maximize the effects of both passive stealth and EW. No wonder F-35 pilots describe the EW capabilties the way they do like that quote in Combat Aircraft magazine October 2015:

‘This jet isn’t just about the weapons — it’s a game-changing capability. The Tornado GR4 can’t just stroll into a
double-digit SAM MEZ [missile engagement zone] In the F-35 I can generate a ‘worm-hole’ in the airspace and lead everyone through it. There isn’t another platform around that can do that. This isn’t all about height and supercruise speed — it’s the ability to not be seen.’


I'd say that description fits perfectly what "Active Stealth" proponents are telling us. Basically F-35s can "stealthify" 4th gen jets using "Active Stealth" i.e. sophisticated electronic warfare. That must be both very strange and comforting to 4th gen aircraft pilots.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 13:26
by ricnunes
hornetfinn wrote:
‘This jet isn’t just about the weapons — it’s a game-changing capability. The Tornado GR4 can’t just stroll into a
double-digit SAM MEZ [missile engagement zone] In the F-35 I can generate a ‘worm-hole’ in the airspace and lead everyone through it. There isn’t another platform around that can do that. This isn’t all about height and supercruise speed — it’s the ability to not be seen.’


I'd say that description fits perfectly what "Active Stealth" proponents are telling us. Basically F-35s can "stealthify" 4th gen jets using "Active Stealth" i.e. sophisticated electronic warfare. That must be both very strange and comforting to 4th gen aircraft pilots.


Yes indeed. The problem 4th gen-fighter proponents/F-35 naysayers and "Active Stealth" proponents is that they claim that a 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft could create such 'worm-hole' as an alternative to the F-35.
But the problem is like you and sprstdlyscottsmn correctly said, in order for one of those 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft to have the same/similar effect/defectiveness as the F-35 it's ECM/EW suite (pod or whatever) must be transmitting at much higher power output which means that it is much likely to be counter-detected and thus all the concept of "Active Stealth" with 4th gen emitter aircraft goes "bananas"...

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 13:34
by steve2267
hornetfinn wrote: No wonder F-35 pilots describe the EW capabilties the way they do like that quote in Combat Aircraft magazine October 2015:

‘This jet isn’t just about the weapons — it’s a game-changing capability. The Tornado GR4 can’t just stroll into a
double-digit SAM MEZ [missile engagement zone] In the F-35 I can generate a ‘worm-hole’ in the airspace and lead everyone through it. There isn’t another platform around that can do that. This isn’t all about height and supercruise speed — it’s the ability to not be seen.’




Then why spend $$ on Growler?

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 13:44
by steve2267
The only thing that makes sense is either
  • USA won't sell me F-35 (but then will then sell me Growler?

--OR--

  • To artificially increase the noise floor

Yeah, the enema knows someone is out there because they KNOW there's a sh*t ton of jamming, but because the noise floor is (artificially) raised so high, it makes it so much more easier for VLO aircraft (i.e. F-35) to slip through.

But again... "game changing" and "worm holes"... why spend the $$ on Growler if you can get it all (and more) with the F-35?

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 13:55
by hornetfinn
steve2267 wrote:
hornetfinn wrote: No wonder F-35 pilots describe the EW capabilties the way they do like that quote in Combat Aircraft magazine October 2015:

‘This jet isn’t just about the weapons — it’s a game-changing capability. The Tornado GR4 can’t just stroll into a
double-digit SAM MEZ [missile engagement zone] In the F-35 I can generate a ‘worm-hole’ in the airspace and lead everyone through it. There isn’t another platform around that can do that. This isn’t all about height and supercruise speed — it’s the ability to not be seen.’




Then why spend $$ on Growler?


Well, Growler can do things even F-35 can't at the moment. It can jam lower frequency radars effectively and also has communications jamming and EA against communications systems. They also need that capability now and number of naval F-35s will remain rather small in the near future. F-35 might get those capabilties in the future, with NGJ.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 17:00
by notkent
hornetfinn wrote: They can definitely use slowly increasing noise jamming at very, very low power levels when they go closer to threat radar. It would be difficult to detect the jamming signals and radar system would start compensating for the increased background noise. Background noise levels fluctuate a lot from natural phenomena and it would be very difficult to tell that kind of jamming from natural sources. When the radar compensates for the background noise levels, it becomes less sensitive as it has to have large enough Signal to Noise ratio to work effectively.


The return signal from the target back to the radar will go up in magnitude as a function of range to the 4th power so the jamming power would have to increase by the same to match it.

When radars are setup and calibrated clutter maps and baseline S/N measurements are made.
The ECCM function of the Radar would probably not be fooled by an ever increasing noise floor.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 22:48
by kimjongnumbaun
This is the issue and why 5th gens are difficult to deal with.

591A79F6-6D03-4F70-9A2A-119C754B2311.gif


This is what a radar scope looks like. A plane will appear as a spike. In this case, a 4th gen will show up as letter A. A stealth fighter has a lower RCS so it’s “spike” will be below the dashed line and discounted as background radiation. It gets lost in the clutter. A non stealth plane can hide itself using ECM. One method is barrage jamming which fills the air with EM radiation and raises the noise floor to hide its spike. Radars have ways of dealing with this using ECCM. One method is using missiles with home on jam capability. They also can just “burn through”, which is increasing the radar power and causing a stronger return and thus getting a larger spike on the non stealthy aircraft. That’s why you need multiple jammers to hide 4th gens because they need to over power the enemy ground radar, which is typically larger and has more energy to utilize.

For these reasons, that’s why 5th gets have a tremendous advantage. It takes less power to hide them in the noise floor. Typically, they aren’t even detected. If they are detected by long wave radar, a FC radar still needs to use X-band to target them. 5th gens are designed specifically to defeat high frequency radar and bounce the energy away to specific angles. So trying to increase the radar energy and burn through jamming is not effective either. Even if there is a receiver located at the specific angle where the energy is being deflected to, because the plane is moving in a 3D space, any spike will be temporary and not long enough to get a track or firing solution. The F-35 has a very comprehensive EM management suite which shows the pilot where the energy is being directed away to, and can thus manage their EM profile and stay in the enemy’s blind spots. This is part of the sensor fusion which is a major evolution to 4th gen fighters.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2019, 04:01
by boogieman
steve2267 wrote:Then why spend $$ on Growler?

Growler will be important going forward (and I'm kind of surprised USAF doesn't have an equivalent... maybe Compass Call?). One likely red team tactic is to use VHF band surveillance radars (eg. Nebo M) to direct and cue shorter wavelength tracking/fire control radars that have been spatially displaced in a way that allows them to paint F35 et al from suboptimal RCS angles (eg side-on). This would improve the range at which they could obtain a viable firing solution, albeit one that could be interrupted by F35 defensive maneuvering & aspect optimisation.

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Bear in mind that J20/Su57/red air would likely be datalinked to the local surveillance radars and using that to cue their own sensors/weapons & generally coordinate themselves. Growler and NGJ should provide the important ability to jam these radars prior to their direct destruction.

I think it's worth pointing out that newer radars like Nebo M are mobile and correspondingly more difficult to pin down and kill. Against a peer adversary they would be protected by a layered IADS so there could well be a protracted period of IADS rollback before they are gone. I think it would be wise to expect the F35 to have to operate in their presence for some time - even more reason to have friendly wide-band standoff jamming (eg. Growler) in the mix.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2019, 13:09
by hornetfinn
notkent wrote:
hornetfinn wrote: They can definitely use slowly increasing noise jamming at very, very low power levels when they go closer to threat radar. It would be difficult to detect the jamming signals and radar system would start compensating for the increased background noise. Background noise levels fluctuate a lot from natural phenomena and it would be very difficult to tell that kind of jamming from natural sources. When the radar compensates for the background noise levels, it becomes less sensitive as it has to have large enough Signal to Noise ratio to work effectively.


The return signal from the target back to the radar will go up in magnitude as a function of range to the 4th power so the jamming power would have to increase by the same to match it.


Basically yes, but jamming signal needs only go one way which means the jamming power is a function of range to the 2nd power. So when range doubles, 16 times more powerful (ERP) radar is needed for detecting similar target. However only 4 times more powerful jammer is needed to counter that 16 times more powerful radar.

notkent wrote:When radars are setup and calibrated clutter maps and baseline S/N measurements are made.
The ECCM function of the Radar would probably not be fooled by an ever increasing noise floor.


Yes they are and those definitely improve radar detection performance. However there is always some small fluctuations in the background noise, so small increases in noise floor will not be easily detectable and thus very difficult to counter with anything. This is where very low RCS helps as only very low powered signals need to be transmitted. It's much harder to do that with non-VLO aircraft as they will need a lot more jamming power. Another helpful thing is having highly directional jamming systems so large and very sensitive ESM receivers have a lot less powerful signals to work with. Having combination of both is priceless as F-35 can do real stand-in jamming and only jam selected radars with narrow beams. Of course there are limitations as the jamming capability is focused in higher radar frequencies.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2019, 15:19
by notkent
I was looking at it from the point of view of the target flying towards the radar system and the return from the target increasing exponentially as it gets closer. The jamming signal will also have to increase exponentially.

But even without jamming the distance that existing Radars can detect VLO is so small that they are easily avoided.

Being VLO and aware of how to minimize its signature will make it very hard to complete the kill chain against the F-35. Its funny how the detractors try to bring up things like DRFM jammers that actually will work much better against 4th generation aircraft than 5th generation ones.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2019, 15:40
by marsavian
steve2267 wrote:The only thing that makes sense is either
  • USA won't sell me F-35 (but then will then sell me Growler?

--OR--

  • To artificially increase the noise floor

Yeah, the enema knows someone is out there because they KNOW there's a sh*t ton of jamming, but because the noise floor is (artificially) raised so high, it makes it so much more easier for VLO aircraft (i.e. F-35) to slip through.

But again... "game changing" and "worm holes"... why spend the $$ on Growler if you can get it all (and more) with the F-35?


Growler can provide wideband jamming for an area as the jamming pods also jam in the rear quadrant. F-35 jams through its APG-81 so is limited to the frontal antenna cone.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2019, 16:54
by sprstdlyscottsmn
marsavian wrote:Growler can provide wideband jamming for an area as the jamming pods also jam in the rear quadrant. F-35 jams through its APG-81 so is limited to the frontal antenna cone.

I wouldn't put money on the last statement. Even 4th Gen aircraft have self protection jamming that covers all quadrants. The APG-81 is just the largest and most powerful of the antennas available.

Growler can do a much wider frequency range of jamming. That is it's big advantage.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 26 Nov 2019, 23:28
by boogieman
This individual is... "interesting" (and rather prolific). Claims a lot of things including that he is a former Russian SAM operator, that F35 is a Yak-141 clone, that its RCS is ~0.5m2 and that stealth/VLO is a myth.

https://disqus.com/by/disqus_2KOS8eIsu5/

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 00:19
by juretrn
Meh. Block and move on. 22000 comments, all either poo-pooing everything American or boosting Russian. Just another troll brigadeer.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 06:52
by boogieman
:lmao:

To his credit he did make mention of photonic radar, which I found interesting. I always wondered what might come next after the "AESA revolution" was done.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 18:45
by wrightwing
marsavian wrote:
steve2267 wrote:The only thing that makes sense is either
  • USA won't sell me F-35 (but then will then sell me Growler?

--OR--

  • To artificially increase the noise floor

Yeah, the enema knows someone is out there because they KNOW there's a sh*t ton of jamming, but because the noise floor is (artificially) raised so high, it makes it so much more easier for VLO aircraft (i.e. F-35) to slip through.

But again... "game changing" and "worm holes"... why spend the $$ on Growler if you can get it all (and more) with the F-35?


Growler can provide wideband jamming for an area as the jamming pods also jam in the rear quadrant. F-35 jams through its APG-81 so is limited to the frontal antenna cone.


Jamming from the APG-81 is limited to the frontal hemisphere, but that's not the only jamming capability the F-35 has. The ASQ-239 can protect all quadrants.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 07:56
by hornetfinn
wrightwing wrote:
marsavian wrote:Growler can provide wideband jamming for an area as the jamming pods also jam in the rear quadrant. F-35 jams through its APG-81 so is limited to the frontal antenna cone.


Jamming from the APG-81 is limited to the frontal hemisphere, but that's not the only jamming capability the F-35 has. The ASQ-239 can protect all quadrants.


Pretty sure that Growler can put helluva lot more power than F-35 can outside APG-81 coverage. But naturally a group of F-35s can do jamming to multiple directions simultaneously, so I don't think this is much of an issue. And Growler needs a lot more power as it has to stay way further away from threat radars than F-35.

Of course Growler can jam much wider frequency band, including COMMS jamming. I think it might make sense in the future for Growlers to do support jamming only against lower frequency systems and let F-35s jam the fire control radar frequencies.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 08:25
by boogieman
hornetfinn wrote:Pretty sure that Growler can put helluva lot more power than F-35 can outside APG-81 coverage...

...of course Growler can jam much wider frequency band, including COMMS jamming. I think it might make sense in the future for Growlers to do support jamming only against lower frequency systems and let F-35s jam the fire control radar frequencies.

I imagine this discrepancy will grow with the arrival of NGJ - something that can't come soon enough given the proliferation of modern AESA radars in red team countries (both surface and airborne). I've heard whispers about integrating NGJ onto the F35 some day but nothing concrete. Would seem like a no-brainer to me.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 08:45
by spazsinbad
A hint about NGJ on F-35s: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=23043&p=396537&hilit=Generation+Jammer#p396537
"...On F-35, while it’s still early days, it has been envisaged that NGJ could integrate directly with that aircraft’s onboard systems and not require a specialised aircraft configured for EW...." Source: Australian Aviation Mag'n Jul 2018 No.361

Article PDF: download/file.php?id=27630 Grrrr GROWLER A_A_2018_07 pp6.pdf (0.5Mb)

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 09:07
by boogieman
Yep that sounds familiar. The main hurdle I can see is the lack of a backseater in the Lightning. Workload could be an issue trying to run it as a dedicated EW platform...

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 09:41
by hornetfinn
boogieman wrote:Yep that sounds familiar. The main hurdle I can see is the lack of a backseater in the Lightning. Workload could be an issue trying to run it as a dedicated EW platform...


That's where sensor fusion engine, artificial intelligence and machine learning comes to play. Just like in F-14 there was real need to have dedicated radar intercept operator and no need in F-22 or F-35 despite the latter having much more capable radars. I think the same will happen with EW systems as I think computers can operate the systems much better than a human can in modern environments. Human has the role of tactician and supervisor and I think a single pilot can do that. AFAIK, that's how Growler is also being developed and upgraded right now. I mean developing artificial intelligence and automation for the EW system.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 10:22
by boogieman
Here's hoping you're right. I think there is a gap in the USAF inventory where the EF111 used to be. Compass Call is fine and all but it can't do the same things as a tactical fast mover. Pairing F35 and NGJ could make for a solid interim capability until a PCA based solution (perhaps) could be fielded.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 10:31
by spazsinbad
Likely to be found in the WAYback Machina so anyway a long ago post about NGJ designed also for the F-35 from AvWEAK.
U.S. Navy Identifies Network Invasion Tool
07 Jan 2011 David A. Fulghum

"A top U.S. Navy official acknowledges that the service’s Next Generation Jammer (NGJ) — designed for the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, EA-18G Growler and F-35 — will feature a network invasion capability...." [beware brokeback URL]

Source: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... adline=U.S. Navy Identifies Network Invasion Tool

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 10:32
by hornetfinn
I could also see a solution where the actual jammers are carried by drones/UCAVs and controlled from a good distance by some human operator(s). There the actual operation of the jammers is done by computers using AI. The tactical employment would be done by humans. This might be good solution for USAF for example, but I doubt it would work as well in USN due to limited number of aircraft onboard carriers. It will take a lot of time before we are there though and Growler and likely F-35 with NGJ will be used before that.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 10:52
by boogieman
Good point, I totally neglected to think of how a UAS based solution might be able to contribute. Whatever the capability ends up being I expect we'll start to hear more about it over the coming years.

This is one area where I think our (RAAF) force planners exercised some solid foresight - electing to field F35 with a supporting Growler force. Our air force be small but mighty haha :wink:

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 11:18
by spazsinbad
ASLO (yes I know) the RAAFie CHAPPies selected the SKYguardian MQ-9B (same as UK) for some conflict from above.

See attached 2 page PDF from ADM 28 Nov 2019 no.567 with story from Ewen Levick about the above.
"...“MQ-9 is more about support to the land force and the littoral,” AIRCDRE Goldie told ADM. “So more customizable payloads, which are all about going after close electro-optic IR and signals intelligence.”..."

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 14:50
by notkent
The LO and SA of the F-35 will also allow it to loiter in the side lobes of a radar and perform jamming that will be harder to detect and counter

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2019, 16:07
by ricnunes
hornetfinn wrote:That's where sensor fusion engine, artificial intelligence and machine learning comes to play. Just like in F-14 there was real need to have dedicated radar intercept operator and no need in F-22 or F-35 despite the latter having much more capable radars. I think the same will happen with EW systems as I think computers can operate the systems much better than a human can in modern environments. Human has the role of tactician and supervisor and I think a single pilot can do that. AFAIK, that's how Growler is also being developed and upgraded right now. I mean developing artificial intelligence and automation for the EW system.


Exactly.
Also remember that the above also happened with the Growler itself. Note that the EA-18G Growler replaced the EA-6B Prowler which had a crew of four (4) while the Growler has only a crew of two (2). I also believe that sensor fusion together with NGJ will/could allow a one-man crew F-35 to fill the same roles as (or even eventually replace) the Growler.

Re: Basement Dweller Butthurt.

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2019, 07:06
by magitsu
F-35 user base is such a lucrative business opportunity that it's hard to see NGJ not making it there in one form or another.