F-35 Auto-GCAS Team to Receive 2018 Collier Trophy

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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marauder2048

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Unread post29 May 2019, 22:47

outlaw162 wrote:It still amazes me that people think the primary purpose of this engineering miracle is to save lives.

It's a side bar compared to saving a $100,000,000 aircraft.


Which is why it was first applied to practically the cheapest FBW fighter in the US inventory?

outlaw162 wrote: Pilots are a dime a dozen....good ones maybe 20 cents/dozen. Pilots would fly the machines with or without auto-GCAS....consistently good pilots generally would not need saving.


So that whole pilot shortage crisis is a myth? Some very skilled pilots killed themselves while
strafing during CAS which is why there is a very specific Auto-GCAS mode with the tightest tolerances
that gets applied when the pilot selects the gun for employment in the air-to-ground master mode.
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quicksilver

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Unread post29 May 2019, 22:53

“Realistically, the crux of the matter here is that the folks in command positions want to avoid fatal class 'A's to keep their commands...”

Ok, brah...tell us how that would work. ‘They’ all got together and engineered this technically and politically in order to save ‘their’ collective back sides? Help us understand the ‘who’ and in which ‘command positions’ made this happen.
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outlaw162

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Unread post29 May 2019, 22:59

That's a little dramatic.

The point is, for 7 mil you can turn just about anybody into a pilot....and they are plenty of folks who would give anything for the opportunity.

Whether or not they will ever need auto-GCAS is a bell-curve problem, pilot-wise....but the bell curve doesn't apply to the aircraft, no matter the cost. As a pilot, you're very skilled until you're not.
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marauder2048

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Unread post29 May 2019, 23:09

outlaw162 wrote:Whether or not they will ever need auto-GCAS is a bell-curve problem, pilot-wise....but the bell curve doesn't apply to the aircraft, no matter the cost. As a pilot, you're very skilled until you're not.


Do you have actual evidence that propensity for target fixation (the leading cause of CFIT during CAS) correlates
with pilot skill level or is even normally distributed?
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post29 May 2019, 23:10

marauder2048 wrote:Which is why it was first applied to practically the cheapest FBW fighter in the US inventory?

Two reasons:
1. Biggest return on investment. Because the F-16 is used in the largest number of any US fighter, the cost to develop is spread across the most airframes making it the cheapest per plane solution to implement. By being the largest group of fighters also means that it will save the largest amount of pilots which is good PR.

2. The F-16 is already FBW which will make development & integration easier than say an F-15.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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outlaw162

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Unread post29 May 2019, 23:17

Do you have actual evidence that propensity for target fixation (the leading cause of CFIT during CAS) correlates
with pilot skill level or is even normally distributed?


Does 5800 hours in fighters count?

And everything in life is "normally distributed"....some things more skewed in a particular direction than others. (800 on the math SAT here)
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quicksilver

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Unread post29 May 2019, 23:31

“Does 5800 hours in fighters count?”

You didn’t answer his question. Nor mine...
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quicksilver

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Unread post29 May 2019, 23:59

“Realistically, the crux of the matter here is that the folks in command positions want to avoid fatal class 'A's to keep their commands...”

“But you are right about the saving of face/commands.”

Spoken like those who have never been there...
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outlaw162

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Unread post30 May 2019, 00:13

You didn’t answer his question. Nor mine...


to answer 'his', CFIT is an oxymoron....if you hit the terrain, I'm not sure 'control' is the operable word.

to answer 'nor mine', you need to ask the right question, not a flamboyant diatribe. 'Is the system specifically directed at saving pilots or saving the aircraft?' It appears that as a CO you would feel much more comfortable with your pilots having auto-GCAS....and less confident having to depend solely on individual 'skill'. I think you answered your own question.
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marauder2048

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Unread post30 May 2019, 00:24

outlaw162 wrote:
Do you have actual evidence that propensity for target fixation (the leading cause of CFIT during CAS) correlates
with pilot skill level or is even normally distributed?


Does 5800 hours in fighters count?


Nope. Because:

Spatial disorientation-implicated accidents in Canadian forces, 1982-92.

Cheung B1, Money K, Wright H, Bateman W.
Author information
Abstract
In a recent survey of CF18 aircrew human factors, 44% of pilots reported experience with spatial disorientation (SD), of whom 10% had experienced more than 3 episodes. In order to investigate further, we have completed a retrospective study of SD-implicated category A accidents (where an aircraft is destroyed, declared missing, or damaged beyond economic repair) in the Canadian Forces (CF) during 1982-92. An overview of all SD occurrences (including accidents and incidents) across aircraft types is also presented. Information was gathered concerning the genesis and severity of disorientation so that research effort and pilot training could be appropriately implemented. Mishap investigation summaries involving category A accidents where SD was implicated were obtained from the CF Directorate of Flight Safety and reviewed. We also examined in detail the Board of Inquiry Reports of these accidents. The role of disorientation in these accidents was assessed. There were 62 category A accidents between 1982-92 and, in 14, SD had been assigned as a possible cause factor in the accident records. When divided into the categories of Recognized SD (RSD), Unrecognized SD (USD), and Incapacitating SD (ISD), all but two fell into the category of USD (the pilots were unaware of the disorientation). Of the SD accidents, 11 involved a total loss of 24 lives. The majority of the accidents happened during the day, and pilots' cumulative flying experience did not appear to be a significant factor.
According to our assessment, there were two episodes of vestibular origin, involving the somatogravic illusion. Three episodes of disorientation occurred over frozen lakes, one over glassy water, and one over ocean.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS).




outlaw162 wrote:And everything in life is "normally distributed"..



Uh..no. Particularly for cognitive abilities. This has long been known in psychometrics.

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2013-13782-004
Last edited by marauder2048 on 30 May 2019, 00:32, edited 1 time in total.
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quicksilver

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Unread post30 May 2019, 00:29

outlaw162 wrote:
You didn’t answer his question. Nor mine...


to answer 'his', CFIT is an oxymoron....if you hit the terrain, I'm not sure 'control' is the operable word.

to answer 'nor mine', you need to ask the right question, not a flamboyant diatribe. 'Is the system specifically directed at saving pilots or saving the aircraft?' It appears that as a CO you would feel much more comfortable with your pilots having auto-GCAS....and less confident having to depend solely on individual 'skill'. I think you answered your own question.


You still didn’t answer. You made the claim that a-gcas is about saving commands. Explain it to us.
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quicksilver

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Unread post30 May 2019, 00:52

:whistle:
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outlaw162

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Unread post30 May 2019, 01:01

I think I may have flown against you at the WTI....or maybe your dad. :D
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quicksilver

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Unread post30 May 2019, 01:20

outlaw162 wrote:I think I may have flown against you at the WTI....or maybe your dad. :D


Then you should know better. AGCAS helps preserve assets and investments that are vital to the nation’s security interests.

:salute:
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outlaw162

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Unread post31 May 2019, 00:39

I particularly enjoyed playing air-adversary for the AV-8 Helo-escort scenario at 29 Palms. :D

But a serious question(s) for someone with command experience. Is an evaluation board required for any pilot involved in an auto-GCAS event? Or is it a given that any AGCAS event was unavoidable?

Are involved pilots automatically re-instated to unquestioned flight status? Or (gasp) are some sent to multi billets? (or worse). Is this basically a freebie? If so, how many freebies do you get?

At Niagara we had a young guy pitch-up a Guard F-101 in the flare and end up with gear collapsed in the in-field. He was given the opportunity to transfer to heavies up at White Plains....partly because he wanted nothing more to do with the VooDoo, but primarily because NYANG had put so much money into his flight training.

Can a commander always afford to put someone involved in an AGCAS event back in the same cockpit?

Non-event? Is this too new to even ask about and TBD? Just curious.

BTW in the F-4 it was fairly straightforward. You just put someone who had a 'bad day' in the backseat....and gave 'em a chance to work their way back to the front seat. That's both depressing and motivational.
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