JASDF F-35A crashed

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spazsinbad

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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 01:38

quicksilver wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Thanks 'youLoudPlayerYou'. :mrgreen: Without having seen any F-35 simulator etc. I would guess that DAS would provide at least an horizon due to the ambient light from the moon. Having a horizon is extremely helpful to combat any Spatial DISorientation. One would 'lock on' to the internal artificial horizon in other aircraft to combat SD and BELIEVE in it!


Spacial ‘d’ would certainly be in my list of potentialities also. But, moon phase/lux/az/el would have virtually no effect on DAS (a mid-ir thermal imager).

I'm going by pilot comments that it was terrific having a horizon at night - so then that came about from the thermal stuff which likely gives the F-35 pilot an horizon no matter what? Forgive me - I flew old aircraft & I ain't seed a F-thirtyfiver.

I'm not in Japan so having this moon in whatever cloud cover depending on thickness may have given visual horizon hint?

Then there is a problem (if DAS ignored and we are in nonDAS aircraft) the clouds if visual have a skewed visual base might give the wroing impression to a pilot causing any spatialD to worsen perhaps. As we have discussed the possible causes of this accident are unfathomable without further information. I guess pilot not found yet?
Last edited by spazsinbad on 12 Apr 2019, 01:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Gums

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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 01:41

Salute!

You don't call for an abort if you are experiencing spatial-d or you just fly into the drink withpout a clue or the FLCS stops and you go end over end..

Something happened and he wisely called "knock it off". And then the grim reaper caught up.

Gums opines...
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spazsinbad

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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 01:47

Agree, one calls stop to then concentrate on FLYING THE AIRCRAFT firstly whilst everything else becomes secondary. You've heard my favourite nite catapult SD story so stop me if youse can. My CO was in FLYCO when I said to the 'fighter controller' something to the effect that I'm not going to follow directions (hdg/altitude/speed or whatever) because I'm disorientated and I'm flying wings level and climbing. CO said something to the effect of keep doing that until you are OK.
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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 01:48

“...going by pilot comments that it was terrific having a horizon at night...”

Thermal doesn’t provide horizon “no matter what.” May just have been a nice night to fly.

Link to discussion of diurnal crossover and consequence for thermal imagers —

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2003SPIE.5097...58R
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spazsinbad

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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 01:57

:mrgreen: LITERALLY I'M NOT BUYING IT! :mrgreen: As I understand I have the wrong idea about why F-35C pilots particularly can see the night horizon during a carrier approach (these experiences would have been in the simulator well before any actual night carrier approaches - not sure what the actual night guys have said now but do recall the 'green glow' issues ((not caused by the horizon))). I'd be interested to know more about the phenomena of 'night horizon at sea in an F-35 via any instruments' if anyone has any FREE info on it. TIA.
Last edited by spazsinbad on 12 Apr 2019, 01:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 01:58

“You don't call for an abort if you are experiencing spatial-d”

Assume you mean ‘unrecognized’ spatial ‘d’, otherwise I disagree.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 01:59

quicksilver wrote:“You don't call for an abort if you are experiencing spatial-d”
Assume you mean ‘unrecognized’ spatial ‘d’, otherwise I disagree.

Your cryptic response has me confused. Please explain. Thanks. OK I get part of my confusion - I took it that 'GUMS' meant he would call for an abort to deal with any SD. People make lots of typing errors here so I try to 'read between the lines/ errors'. You may notice I make lots of deliberate spelling mistakes because that is who I am: 'SPAZSINBAD!' the 1st. :wink:
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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 02:12

spazsinbad wrote:
quicksilver wrote:“You don't call for an abort if you are experiencing spatial-d”
Assume you mean ‘unrecognized’ spatial ‘d’, otherwise I disagree.

Your cryptic response has me confused. Please explain. Thanks.


I quoted gums. Some spatial d is recognized, some is not. I have had — and recognized I was having at the moment — spatial d, as both a flight lead and a wingman on several occasions. I declared same, and have lived to tell the tale. Had a flight leads declare same in IMC, daytime, at night, over water, and in some really snotty stuff. Calling an abort would not be unusual in my experience.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_disorientation
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spazsinbad

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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 02:17

OK thanks. I took it that 'GUMS' meant the opposite to what he typed in error considering the rest of the sentence. BUT I COULD BE TODALLY RONG and a dancing fool. Meanwhile here is the first F-35C nite cat shot in BARMY weather! :devil:

For 'scared' one may guess a tad bit of disorientation also probably; but HEY I WAS NOT THERE; didn't see nothing/nussink.

F-35C Test Pilot Comment 1st Night Catapult Afterburner Use https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XffGeiN96Ow

RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 03:02

quicksilver wrote:Re: low time in model, I’d have to know more about the transition/conversion syllabus, the type of training mission code they were flying, how much recent flt and sim time in the last 30/60/90 days, and other recent personal activity. Then there’s the aircraft maintenance history...


The pilot would be, by USAF standards, an inexperienced F-35 pilot (under 100 hours).
He would not be qualified, by USAF standards, to lead a four-ship flight, at night and over water no
matter the mission type.

I'm merely stating USAF standards that have been published but it's also consistent with the
mishap reports you read when the mishap pilot is undergoing flight lead upgrade training;
they typically have hundreds of hours in that type.

Not trying to blame the dead it's just something any AIB would look at along with the mishap
pilot's nigh-vision technology hours.
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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 03:35

When everyone is new to the aircraft, someone has to lead.

So, who do you pick?
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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 03:55

Salute!

Spaz and Quick figured out what I really meant. You know, "what the captain really means...." Thanks for understanding.

Of course
, if you are disoriented and don't know it, all bets are off. What I meant was if the guy was having a problem and wanted a time to recover and get his act together then he may have called :knock it off".

Think about an ACT missions and soon the MFWIC realizes things are outta control, "Knock it off".

Everyone calms down, regroups and we start over.
++++++++++++++++++++++
I stand by my initial theory that something bad happened and then it got worse.

Gums...
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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 04:57

quicksilver wrote:When everyone is new to the aircraft, someone has to lead.

So, who do you pick?


Someone who has been qualified as a four-ship flight lead at the international training center?
That's a major selling point of it especially since you had instructors there with 500 F-35 hours
as of 3 years ago.
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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 08:51

Spatial disorientation is nothing to joke about.

Training and fights can be hard and furious and every fighter pilot get this from time to time, certainly in low VMC or IMC or at dark nights.

In the past the reaction was rather "easy" => Goto instruments and stay on instruments till fully recovered.

In older aircraft one thing was for granted. => The instruments and the hud where the FRONT of the aircraft.

I think we can all understand that with helmet mouted flight instruments, this takes some time getting used to.

Your primary flight instruments (helmet mounted) and the nose of the aircraft are not guaranteed to be in the same spot any more what adds to the initial confusion.
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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 09:21

'vilters' said: "...Your primary flight instruments (helmet mounted) and the nose of the aircraft are not guaranteed to be in the same spot any more what adds to the initial confusion...." You need to explain what you mean by this because it is not clear to me what you are attempting to describe, correct or not. Pilot Flying information may be seen anywhere via the HMDS whilst the vHUD is always in the same place on the nose of the aircraft as one would expect, as has been explained by 'QS' in a much earlier thread about all of this. However the vHUD front view may be switched to a rear view also.

Here Helmet-mounted displays search - top left 'vHUD': viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223

vHUD view looking forward: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=288480&hilit=vHUD#p288480

Good 'QuickSilver' explaino: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=234157&hilit=vHUD#p234157
"...The HMDS provides a range of functions for the pilot. One is the virtual HUD or VHUD. The VHUD is projected on the visor where one would find a conventional HUD in a legacy jet -- oriented on a fixed reference to the aircraft -- e.g. the waterline, FRL or whatever they call it in the jets some of you have flown...."


SKAFF the designer: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=221823&hilit=vHUD#p221823
(End of page quote below is about the last two graphics as seen above (13th & 14th slides).) Grfx LINK below post.

"...The HMD with vHUD opens the view into over 41000 square degrees. This is the full sphere surrounding the aircraft. The thirteenth slide provides an example of the vHUD when the pilot looks directly forward where a physical HUD would be. F-35 pilots report that in about 10 minutes they become accustomed to the vHUD. The pilots recognize the potential improvements in lethality and survivability of the HMD.

The final slide provides an example of off axis symbology. In general, Lockheed only take key flight parameters and tactical symbology off axis. In the future Lockheed will investigate off axis attitude awareness symbology. The mil standards don’t yet address HMDs and off axis symbology. Lockheed will work with the Services to improve and update The standard as well as the HMD symbology."" http://www.sldinfo.com/whitepapers/the- ... ion-maker/


viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=221805&hilit=White+Paper#p221805

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