JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 13:48
by gc

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 14:16
by zero-one
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japa ... SKCN1RL1FJ

TOKYO (Reuters) - Japan’s Air Self-Defence Force said on Tuesday that an F-35 fighter jet disappeared from radar as it was flying over the Pacific Ocean.

The jet was flying some 135 km (84 miles) east of northern Japan at about 7:27 p.m. (1027 GMT) when it dropped off radar, the military said.


What are the chances that it can still be recovered flying somewhere?
I personally think its very unlikely at this point. If they are already searching for it, then its safe to say its been gone for a pretty long time now.

Honestly, there are only 2 likely scenarios on the top of my head.
-it crashed
-Pilot defected to China or Russia.

Both aren't pretty but I would choose the former over the latter. Hopefully the pilot is safe somewhere.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 14:46
by mixelflick
That (defection) possibility.... I never even considered that. But it is a possibility, and a scary one at that. Imagine, it would be the Mig-25 1976 defection to Japan all over again.

I would certainly hope LM, Pratt and Whitney etc. planned for something like this. Maybe tamper resistant code of some sort? Does anyone know of what anti-pirating/defection measures have been taken on the F-35 program?

If it is a defection, at least it's early in the program. Never going to be good news, but at least LM etc can make modifications to subsequent F-35's to negate a total and complete raping of its secrets..

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 14:52
by playloud
https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2019 ... PPwaMXc2TQ
TOKYO - The Japanese Air Self-Defense Force said Tuesday an F-35A fighter jet deployed at Misawa Air Base in northeastern Japan disappeared from radar over the Pacific during a training exercise.

The stealth fighter was flying with three other aircraft off the coast of Aomori Prefecture some 135 kilometers east of the base when radar contact was lost around 7:27 p.m., it said.

Radio communication cannot be established with the missing single-crew fighter, and search operations are under way.

The fighter is one of 13 F-35As deployed at Misawa.

Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya told reporters the ASDF will ground the 12 remaining F-35As for the time being.

Japan began deploying U.S.-developed F-35As, each of which costs over 10 billion yen ($90 million), in January 2018 to replace the aging F-4 fighter jet. Japan plans to eventually deploy a total of 105 F-35As in addition to 42 F-35B short takeoff aircraft that it will purchase at a later date.

Why don't the three other aircraft know what happened?

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 14:58
by fbw
Pilot defected to China or Russia.

Both aren't pretty but I would choose the former over the latter. Hopefully the pilot is safe somewhere.


Aircraft disappeared 135Km east of Misawa, there is nothing but ocean in that direction. Think we can rule out defection.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 15:07
by optimist
Sadly for the family, we can assume it went down.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 15:35
by sferrin
I hope they work as hard as possible to recover that aircraft. :doh:

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 15:51
by Dragon029
playloud wrote:Why don't the three other aircraft know what happened?

I don't want to get too much into speculating, but I've run through around a dozen different plausible causes and the most likely by a long shot seems some kind of loss of consciousness, whether it was G-LOC, an ECS failure or some other medical issue; most other possibilities rely on independent systems failing simultaneously, or issues where the pilot has time to make a mayday call or navigate towards home, but decides not to for some reason. Defection seems even less likely than those to me.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 16:03
by Gamera
Tuesday, 9 April 2019:
F-35A.
302nd Hikoutai, 3rd Koukuudan, JASDF, based at Misawa AB, Aomori Prefecture.

One of flight of four.

19:27, during training, lost radar contact, above Pacific Ocean, 135 km east from Misawa AB.

One pilot.

Major (40s).

https://www.mod.go.jp/asdf/news/houdou/index.html
https://www.mod.go.jp/asdf/news/houdou/ ... 9_2030.pdf

Official MOD press release(s).

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 21:41
by mmm
So potentially the first incident with loss of life? If it is a physiological episode then that would be a given. If not what's the chance of recovering an over water ejection when there's a lot of unknown regarding location? Correct me if I'm wrong but either there's a good fix on location and it's done in the first few hours(normally because the pilot is able to communicate about the imminent loss) or it will never be, no?

Now it may not have been a defection, it doesn't prevent someone else from recovering the wreckage.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 22:27
by fbw
Now it may not have been a defection, it doesn't prevent someone else from recovering the wreckage.


I’ve seen several commentators suggest this is a potential threat, including Lt. Gen (Ret) David Deptula. Not to dismiss this, but there is no way of knowing if the wreckage is in pieces, or how easy it will be to find. Provided it went down where contact was lost, it lies close to Japan and in its EEZ. Japan has ships in the area searching now, and any potential covert mission by an adversary would take some time to prepare and travel there.

While such a threat isn’t outside the realm of possibility, I think a bigger concern is the fate of the pilot and the cause of the crash right now

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 23:34
by Corsair1963
As usual we will just have to wait until further information becomes available..... :|

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 23:42
by marsavian
Dragon029 wrote:
playloud wrote:Why don't the three other aircraft know what happened?

I don't want to get too much into speculating, but I've run through around a dozen different plausible causes and the most likely by a long shot seems some kind of loss of consciousness, whether it was G-LOC, an ECS failure or some other medical issue; most other possibilities rely on independent systems failing simultaneously, or issues where the pilot has time to make a mayday call or navigate towards home, but decides not to for some reason. Defection seems even less likely than those to me.


Weren't the other aircraft in MADL range and connected ? Well if it was G-LOC Auto-GCAS can't come quick enough for the F-35.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 23:55
by rheonomic
mixelflick wrote:I would certainly hope LM, Pratt and Whitney etc. planned for something like this. Maybe tamper resistant code of some sort? Does anyone know of what anti-pirating/defection measures have been taken on the F-35 program

I believe that part of the design for export included protections for the on-board software and hardware, but I wouldn't expect much detail to be publicly available.
marsavian wrote:Weren't the other aircraft in MADL range and connected ? Well if it was G-LOC Auto-GCAS can't come quick enough for the F-35.

It would suck to have a CFIT right as GCAS is being integrated ... also, if over-water spatial disorientation is a possible CFIT cause in addition to G-LOC.

I think the current blocks have manual GCAS / PARS available but if the pilot doesn't activate them...

Anyways, far too early for speculation.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 00:27
by charlielima223
The vultures who constantly circle now have something else to pick and peck at.
I don't believe defection is a real possibility. Politically and militarily; Japan and China aren't even lukewarm to each other.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 00:50
by marsavian
Image

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 01:21
by marsavian
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2019041010 ... s-reports/

The JASDF said Wednesday it has found what could be debris from the missing fighter jet, according to broadcaster NHK.

The incident took place during a training flight involving four F-35A fighters. One pilot was on board of the missing aircraft. The missing jet was reportedly the first F-35A assembled at the Mitsubishi Heavy Industries facility in Nagoya.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 01:27
by tank-top
I wonder how warm and fuzzy communications are between the U.S. Navy and Russian and Chinese Navy about staying out of the area, I’m guessing there are some really good stories that we will never hear.

Let’s pray for the pilot and his family.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 02:47
by steve2267
Reuters is reporting that wreckage of the crashed F-35A has been found:

Wreckage confirmed to be from crashed Japanese F-35 fighter
Tim Kelly / April 9, 2019 / 6:15 PM

TOKYO (Reuters) - Search and rescue teams found wreckage belonging to a Japanese Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth fighter that disappeared on Tuesday over the Pacific Ocean close to northern Japan, a military spokesman said on Wednesday.

The pilot of the aircraft is still missing, said the Air Self Defense Force (ASDF) spokesman.

“We recovered the wreckage and determined it was from the F-35,” the spokesman told Reuters.

The F-35 was less than a year old and was delivered to the ASDF in May last year, he added.

Japan’s first squadron of F-35s has just become operational at the Misawa air base and the government plans to buy 87 of the stealth fighters to modernize its air defenses as China’s military power grows.

The advanced single-seat jet was flying about 135 km (84 miles) east of the air base in Aomori Prefecture at about 7.27 p.m. (1027 GMT) on Tuesday, when it disappeared from radar, the Air Self Defense Force said.

[ more at the jump ]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-defence-f35/wreckage-confirmed-to-be-from-crashed-japanese-f-35-fighter-idUSKCN1RM011


Edit: changed "recovered" to "found" to better reflect the story.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 03:12
by charlielima223
So when are we going to start hearing/reading comments that secretly Russia or China was able to shoot down an F-35?

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 03:13
by commisar
A tragedy. If they've found wreckage, the rest of the jet should be recoverable, eventually. Then it'll be time to figure out why it went down.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 03:43
by lbk000
charlielima223 wrote:So when are we going to start hearing/reading comments that secretly Russia or China was able to shoot down an F-35?

Tell me about it, I already got an earful of "Chinese hacking satellite" :x

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 05:13
by spazsinbad
Some more details....
Japan confirms F-35A fighter jet crashed; remaining aircraft still grounded
09 Apr 2019 Mike Yeo

"This story has been updated with the most current information. Last update: 10:10 p.m. EST - April 9, 2019

MELBOURNE, Australia — The Japan Air Self-Defense Force confirmed Wednesday morning local time that a missing F-35A has crashed, pointing to debris sighted and recovered Tuesday night by ships and helicopters searching for the aircraft.

The pilot remains missing. U.S. military assets have also joined the search, including a U.S. Navy Boeing P-8A Poseidon multi-mission aircraft on temporary duty in Japan.

The crashed aircraft, which the JASDF identified as serial number 79-8705, was the first of 13 Japanese F-35As assembled so far by Mitsubishi’s final assembly and check out facility in Nagoya. In addition to the 12 JASDF F-35As affected by the temporary Japanese grounding order, the 14th aircraft assembled, which is still at Nagoya and undergoing pre-delivery flight tests, has also been grounded....

...Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force aircraft and vessels quickly kicked off a search mission, with Japan’s Coast Guard sending two vessels soon after. Other JASDF aircraft, most likely search-and-rescue U-125A jets and UH-60J Black Hawk helicopters that are deployed throughout Japanese air bases, also reportedly joined the search efforts...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/04 ... -grounded/

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 06:43
by Dragon029
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japa ... SKCN1RM011

The aircraft was at the front of a group of four planes out for training maneuvers when it sent an “aborting practice” signal and then disappeared from the radar, Defence Minister Takeshi Iwaya told reporters.


This changes things, opening up a myriad of possible causes. Was the "aborting practice signal" the pilot noticing a problem and attempting to RTB? Was it something like a "knock it off" phrase before a CFIT? Was it some kind of automated message (perhaps from something like the P5 combat training system after his F-35 went below a certain altitude or had some other issue) where the pilot potentially didn't realise he was in trouble / didn't have time to call for help?

Edit: Other articles like this one suggest that the pilot himself just signalled (via voice, or whatever) that he needed to abort the practice: https://thedefensepost.com/2019/04/10/j ... ter-crash/

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 06:56
by spazsinbad
I gather the 'crash pilot' was the leader of the four? Or maybe 'just out in front'? Anyway from the same story above:
"...The aircraft had been in the air for 28 minutes when contact was lost, the official said. The pilot had 3,200 hours of flight time, with 60 hours on the F-35, the official said. The aircraft crashed in waters that reach a depth of around 1,500 meters, making recovery difficult, the official said...."

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 07:29
by zero-one
charlielima223 wrote:So when are we going to start hearing/reading comments that secretly Russia or China was able to shoot down an F-35?


Fan boys in social media are already saying it was shot by an S-400, which would be an unnecessary act of war against Japan, one of only 3 Asian countries with a Mutual Defense treaty with the US. S.Korea and the Philippines are the other 2.

They have all reasons to shoot one down in Syria, specially since Israel has been using F-35Is in the area.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 07:57
by botsing
With the wreckage spotted we can rule out the ridiculous idea of defection, which was an embarrassing and insulting idea to start with.

And it being shot down is so far out of reach of reality that it's not worth any rebuttal, it's flat earthers levels of thinking that one.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 08:36
by zero-one
botsing wrote:With the wreckage spotted we can rule out the ridiculous idea of defection, which was an embarrassing and insulting idea to start with.


The Defection idea was actually the most extremely unlikely scenario I can think of. It was not a knock on the Japanese. In fact I personally view them as the most honorable people on Earth, demonstrating that they would rather kill them selves than surrender. History has made them famous for this Bushido mentality.

But everyone has their 1%, people who are rotten to the core, CIA had them, the Spartans had them, even Jesus himself had Judas in the group. So we can't entirely rule out a possibility no matter how noble the organization is.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 11:41
by kimjongnumbaun
zero-one wrote:
botsing wrote:With the wreckage spotted we can rule out the ridiculous idea of defection, which was an embarrassing and insulting idea to start with.


The Defection idea was actually the most extremely unlikely scenario I can think of. It was not a knock on the Japanese. In fact I personally view them as the most honorable people on Earth, demonstrating that they would rather kill them selves than surrender. History has made them famous for this Bushido mentality.

But everyone has their 1%, people who are rotten to the core, CIA had them, the Spartans had them, even Jesus himself had Judas in the group. So we can't entirely rule out a possibility no matter how noble the organization is.


I agree 100%. Having worked the the JASDF, a defection seemed highly unlikely to me. Their aviators are also very well trained and consummate professionals on par with our own pilots. I hate to say it, but I'm guessing the most likely scenario was that it was a problem with the plane and not the pilot. Photo of me with the JASDF after the Tohoku earthquake and tsunami.

PS. They are professional, but they also play VERY hard.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 12:05
by spazsinbad
Same as the 'Dragon029' POST URL above: https://thedefensepost.com/2019/04/10/j ... ter-crash/ 'a piece of the tail' was recovered: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/ ... K3MfeTmtm8

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 12:07
by Gamera
Tuesday, 9 April 2019:
F-35A.
79-8705.
302nd Hikoutai, 3rd Koukuudan, JASDF, based at Misawa AB, Aomori Prefecture.

18:59, took off, for air combat training, at Misawa AB.
#1 of flight of four.

19:27, during training, lost radar and radio contacts, above Pacific Ocean, 135 km east from Misawa AB.

One pilot.

Major (40s).

After 19:47, JASDF rescue squadrons scrambled 11 aircraft.

After 19:50, JMSDF rescue squadrons scrambled four ships, three aircraft.

After 21:45, found floating debris.

22:10, UH-60J, of Akita Kyuunantai, recovered debris.

22:48, JDS Chikuma recovered debris.

SAR activities.
JASDF: U-125A x 2, UH-60J x 2.
JMSDF: P-3C x 1, SH-60J x 1, ship x 5.
JCG: Ship x 3.
USN: P-8 x 1.

https://www.mod.go.jp/asdf/news/houdou/index.html
https://www.mod.go.jp/asdf/news/houdou/ ... 9_2030.pdf
https://www.mod.go.jp/asdf/news/houdou/ ... 410_01.pdf

MOD official news releases.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 12:26
by Gamera
To be fair, during the Cold War decades, JASDF personnel tried to defect.

For example, on 24 June 1962, a ground mechanic borrowed a T-33A (81-5361, #361) of 7th Hikoutai, 4th Koukuudan, JASDF, based at Matsushima AB, Miyagi Prefecture, but he failed to take off, overran runway, crashed, and wounded himself.
To prevent pursuit by two F-86F on alert duty, he damaged or sabotaged their landing gear.

For another example, on 23 June 1973, another ground mechanic borrowed a LM-1 (JG-1005, 21005) of JGSDF, based at JGSDF Kita Utsunomiya, Tochigi Prefecture.
Reportedly, he was drunk, managed to take off, disappeared into the night, and presumably crashed into sea, somewhere.

FYI, the editors of this http://www.f-16.net site can confirm I know a lot about military aviation accidents in Japan. 8D

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 13:38
by sferrin
Gamera wrote:To be fair, during the Cold War decades, JASDF personnel tried to defect.


Why the hell would anybody want to defect to the USSR? Hell even Bernie didn't do that.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 13:47
by Gamera
[quote="sferrin"]Why the hell would anybody want to defect [i]to[/i] the USSR? Hell even Bernie didn't do that.[/quote]

Reportedly, that dude wanted to defect to Red China. 8(

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 13:52
by vilters
Money. That is the reason.

China and Russia promise as many Gold bars as you can carry for a look at the F-35.
Or an open account in the Maldives, or any other tax- pleasure island.

India will bring 50 virgins to play with. (But seeing the latest reports, they are running out of virgins FAST. )

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 14:10
by zero-one
Well "wanting" to defect may not be the only reason to defect.
Chinese Triads can hold someone's relatives hostage or something. But we're going too far into Tom Clancy territory here.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 14:58
by markithere
Other possibilities the pilot might have had an aneurysm, stroke, or heart attack. He might also have made a bad life choice and purposely dived into the ocean. All that is known publicly at the moment is that it is in pieces in the water.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 14:58
by gc
vilters wrote:Money. That is the reason.

China and Russia promise as many Gold bars as you can carry for a look at the F-35.
Or an open account in the Maldives, or any other tax- pleasure island.

India will bring 50 virgins to play with. (But seeing the latest reports, they are running out of virgins FAST. )


I hope CIA is working to bring a J-20 or Su-57 over. No much tech to gain from it but a massive embarrassment. On the flipside, though of losing a F-35 via defection sends shivers down my spine. Too much to lose.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 18:07
by geforcerfx
gc wrote:
vilters wrote:Money. That is the reason.

China and Russia promise as many Gold bars as you can carry for a look at the F-35.
Or an open account in the Maldives, or any other tax- pleasure island.

India will bring 50 virgins to play with. (But seeing the latest reports, they are running out of virgins FAST. )


I hope CIA is working to bring a J-20 or Su-57 over. No much tech to gain from it but a massive embarrassment. On the flipside, though of losing a F-35 via defection sends shivers down my spine. Too much to lose.



Not really needed, which how much of modern aircraft design and planning is computer based, it's just easier to steal the digital files. But it's is so much easier for counter intel now a days, makes me really wonder how much of the F-35 the Chinese have stolen or should I say how much of the "F-35" they have stolen :D

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 18:08
by Gamera
A bit OT: during the Cold War decades, PRC and ROC military pilots defected to the other side.
In ROC, a PRC pilot who survived the defection (direct to ROC, or via ROK), got a lot of real gold, the amount/weight of which depended on his aircraft type.
Some converted the gold into cash, invested wisely, and maybe emigrated to USA; others wasted the cash.

OTOH, after a ROC pilot defected to PRC, the pilot's squadronmates (after they got investigated by the Political Warfare Department) probably claimed he gambled, and owed a lot of money, or his wife had another lover.
Said pilot would, in radio or TV interviews, deny the claims, and bash the ROC military (under dictator General Chiang), the ROC government (under dictator General Chiang), and the ROC capitalist society.

I guess such illegal immigrations happened in the Germanies too. 8(

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 18:52
by ricnunes
IMO there's another possibility which is mentioned (although not directly) on the part of the article shared by spazsinbad, which I re-post below:

spazsinbad wrote:The crashed aircraft, which the JASDF identified as serial number 79-8705, was the first of 13 Japanese F-35As assembled so far by Mitsubishi’s final assembly and check out facility in Nagoya. In addition to the 12 JASDF F-35As affected by the temporary Japanese grounding order, the 14th aircraft assembled, which is still at Nagoya and undergoing pre-delivery flight tests, has also been grounded....


Perhaps something was wrongly assembled by the Japanese??

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 19:57
by outlaw162
"Strange thing is they make such bloody good cameras."

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 22:05
by spazsinbad
Assembly of the F-35 at FACOs is supervised/monitored/secured by DoD/LM personnel. Then the aircraft are flight tested. The first assembled is flown to the USofA for stealth testing then transferred to the training squadrons at Luke AFB.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 22:38
by steve2267
Crash reportedly occurred around 7:30pm local time. That'd be around dusk this time of year, eh? Probably something far more mundane like spatial disorientation close the water... possibly with -A helmet lighting not helping with rapidly darkening environs. (Or did all the Navy helmet mods get pushed to ALL helmets worldwide?)

Aviation can be dangerous. Military aviation doubly so. At dusk, over water... if sh*t goes sideways... things can go downhill fast.

Play at the Tom Clancy and "he musta been a spy" claptrap if you must... but it diminishes the forum, and disrespects the pilot and the professionalism of the Japanese military.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 22:47
by spazsinbad
steve2267 wrote:...Play at the Tom Clancy and "he musta been a spy" claptrap if you must... but it diminishes the forum, and disrespects the pilot and the professionalism of the Japanese military.

Agree. I was going to make a similar comment however I'm tired complaining of people taking threads REALLY OFF TOPIC.

About the other stuff of Steven the Wondrous. Yeah speculation. Out at sea it is BLACK to the naked eye there is no horizon and it is like being in a black hole (often said). However the F-35 has plenty of instrument aids for the pilot to better combat disorientation except as this pilot has only 60 hours in an F-35 apparently PERHAPS as other pilots comment 'they needed 50 hours to adjust to the HMDS but they'll never go back' PERHAPS some other learnt behavior from previous 3,000 hours of experience kicked in momentarily for this pilot to make a fatal mistake. Who knows.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 23:18
by marauder2048
Wait..the pilot was a four-ship flight lead for an at night, over-water ACM training mission with a mere 60 hours in
the F-35?!

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 23:38
by Tiger05
steve2267 wrote:Play at the Tom Clancy and "he musta been a spy" claptrap if you must... but it diminishes the forum, and disrespects the pilot and the professionalism of the Japanese military.


Agreed. I would expect to see those ridiculous theories about a possible defection on forums like Keypub but not here. This is a serious forum.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 01:18
by spazsinbad
marauder2048 wrote:Wait..the pilot was a four-ship flight lead for an at night, over-water ACM training mission with a mere 60 hours in the F-35?!

Who otherwise has 3,200 hours in fighter aircraft. TWICE my total after approx. 6 flying years in 9.5 years in RAN (FAA).

I don't believe they were carrying out ACM at night. Maneuvring as a formation against pretend or real? foe but ACM WVR? No. Be in a black room with lights off/aircraft lights off. Sure F-35s have radar and vHUD for targets via DAS. What do any lesser others have? NADA similar so no 'within visual range' at night. NO CAN SEE VISUAL. Capiche? 8) BVR? Of course. :roll:

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 03:15
by Corsair1963
My understanding is the pilot had just taken off and was less than 90 miles off the eastern coast of Japan. When he called and aborted the mission. Clearly, he was having a major issue. Then no more contact with him after that....

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 03:22
by spazsinbad
Corsair1963 wrote:My understanding is the pilot had just taken off and was less than 90 miles off the eastern coast of Japan. When he called and aborted the mission. Clearly, he was having a major issue. Then no more contact with him after that....

Here is one official timeline in this thread from 'Gamera' (other 'times' say the same) 28 minutes after take-off PROBLEM.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=55255&p=416449&hilit=Aomori#p416449

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 04:32
by Gums
Salute!

Guilty as charged of discussing "defection", but you start with all possible scenarios and then throw out one after the other. Shoot me now.

Not sure where the data recorder is, and it may not be on the seat as it was for our Viper. But it will be invaluable compared with determining the cause of the Marine Bee crash last year.
++++++++++++++
From Spaz, re the pilot's experience.
Who otherwise has 3,200 hours in fighter aircraft. TWICE my total after approx. 6 flying years in 9.5 years in RAN (FAA)


Well, this old fart had 2200 hours by the 6 year point, and 3300 + by the time I got to the Viper, and that included almost 3 years of not flying anything. And do you think I led a formation with 60 hours in the Viper? Maybe sat in the pit of the family model and helped some nugget learn to fly the thing?

Think about bringing the new planes online and where you get the "experienced" folks that first year or so. I was the high time guy in the 16th in June 1979 . I got the Command Pilot "toilet bowl" on my wings the next summer, and yet the Ops Officer was older and more senior but didn't have the hours yet.

So the experience and time in type for this mishap pilot seems very realistic and at least as good as our own F-35 cadre.

Gums sends...

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 06:00
by spazsinbad
Yeah BUT no BUT Yeah BUTT that 'old fart' was in a shootin' war - my helo flying training buddies went to it in 1970. IIRC they had some thousand + hours in that year in Vietnam flying Iroquois Slicks & Gunships (TAIPANS). Jet Pilots in the RAN FAA in the early years of the A4G had scarce hours due to availability from spares shortages (all going to USN in the war) and just getting up to speed with only ten - got better later when war ended and we had ten more A4G Skyhawks. <sigh>

Then once onboard flying time was perhaps on average once or twice a week if that. Mostly the MELBOURNE was steaming FLAT OUT to get from A to B in VAST PACIFIC SEA - usually they were LATE-they're LATE-for that VERY IMPORTANT DATE!

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 11:08
by Gamera
steve2267 wrote:Crash reportedly occurred around 7:30pm local time.


https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/japan/a ... &year=2019

FWIW, on 2019/04/09, at Aomori, sunrise was 5:08, and sunset 18:09.
Accident time was 19:27, and probably very dark.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 12:44
by spazsinbad
Do you know the moon situation along with cloud cover etc.? Just happened today on the accident of a senior RAAF pilot crashing into the sea daytime during his conversion to type. It is 'unknown' why and what happened because the aircraft and pilot not recovered. However this website Aviation Safety Network reports:
"[MIRAGE IIO] A3-77 Delivered 13/04/67. Crashed 11/05/67, into sea off Newcastle NSW. Pilot killed during conversion course was Wing Commander Vance Drummond - was to be 3 Sqn CO. Suspect pilot incapacitated."

As fate would have it as a young pilot under training Vance crashed his Wirraway into a lake in 1950:
"...Royal Australian Air Force pilot Vance Drummond was completing a training flight from the Point Cook air base near Geelong in October 1950 when he crashed the Wirraway into Lake Corangamite, then full of water. He survived with minor injuries and went on to become a decorated fighter pilot, serving in the Korean and Vietnam wars and leading the RAAF Black Diamonds [SABRE] aerobatic team...." https://www.standard.net.au/story/19195 ... rangamite/

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 14:59
by playloud
Moon was Waxing Crescent. About 15% illumination. At the time of radar contact loss, it would have been about 27 degrees above the western horizon.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 20:24
by spazsinbad
Thanks 'youLoudPlayerYou'. :mrgreen: Without having seen any F-35 simulator etc. I would guess that DAS would provide at least an horizon due to the ambient light from the moon. Having a horizon is extremely helpful to combat any Spatial DISorientation. One would 'lock on' to the internal artificial horizon in other aircraft to combat SD and BELIEVE in it!

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 23:57
by marauder2048
spazsinbad wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:Wait..the pilot was a four-ship flight lead for an at night, over-water ACM training mission with a mere 60 hours in the F-35?!

Who otherwise has 3,200 hours in fighter aircraft. TWICE my total after approx. 6 flying years in 9.5 years in RAN (FAA).

I don't believe they were carrying out ACM at night. Maneuvring as a formation against pretend or real? foe but ACM WVR? No. Be in a black room with lights off/aircraft lights off. Sure F-35s have radar and vHUD for targets via DAS. What do any lesser others have? NADA similar so no 'within visual range' at night. NO CAN SEE VISUAL. Capiche? 8) BVR? Of course. :roll:



In the USAF, he would only meet the bare minimum requirements to start flight lead upgrade *training* for the F-35
assuming he was previously qualified as a four-ship flight lead on his older type.

That's pretty far from being an actual four-ship flight lead for *anything* at night and over water.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 00:49
by Gums
Salute!

I take issue with Marauder,

Last I looked at some incident reports, they were taking 1500 hour folks for the Thunderbirds! and after checking, one solo had about 1200 hours. None of the current T-birds had over 2400 hours except #3 who flew commerically before USAF and still has basic wings without the star (prolly watching the autopilot from L.A. to Boston, but he must nbe a good stick, huh?).

So the current T-Bird Commander has 2400 hours and leads the premier Air Force flight?

In all fairness, you have to start with somebody that has zero hours in the new jet, and that pilot helps another to learn to fly the thing. And that newbie plus 'Adam" helps two or three more. Then those help three or four more. You know? The "begats" like you see in the Bible.

I was one of those charter members in the Viper, so I have a special connection with most that flew the thing or still fly it.

Something bad happened, and the SOB paid the price for flying the latest and greatest when it happened. We learned a lot in the three planes I flew that became operational the first year I flew them. So I think there's something else at work besides a newbie in a new jet.

Gums sends...

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 01:05
by quicksilver
spazsinbad wrote:Thanks 'youLoudPlayerYou'. :mrgreen: Without having seen any F-35 simulator etc. I would guess that DAS would provide at least an horizon due to the ambient light from the moon. Having a horizon is extremely helpful to combat any Spatial DISorientation. One would 'lock on' to the internal artificial horizon in other aircraft to combat SD and BELIEVE in it!


Spacial ‘d’ would certainly be in my list of potentialities also. But, moon phase/lux/az/el would have virtually no effect on DAS (a mid-ir thermal imager).

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 01:13
by quicksilver
Re: low time in model, I’d have to know more about the transition/conversion syllabus, the type of training mission code they were flying, how much recent flt and sim time in the last 30/60/90 days, and other recent personal activity. Then there’s the aircraft maintenance history...

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 01:38
by spazsinbad
quicksilver wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Thanks 'youLoudPlayerYou'. :mrgreen: Without having seen any F-35 simulator etc. I would guess that DAS would provide at least an horizon due to the ambient light from the moon. Having a horizon is extremely helpful to combat any Spatial DISorientation. One would 'lock on' to the internal artificial horizon in other aircraft to combat SD and BELIEVE in it!


Spacial ‘d’ would certainly be in my list of potentialities also. But, moon phase/lux/az/el would have virtually no effect on DAS (a mid-ir thermal imager).

I'm going by pilot comments that it was terrific having a horizon at night - so then that came about from the thermal stuff which likely gives the F-35 pilot an horizon no matter what? Forgive me - I flew old aircraft & I ain't seed a F-thirtyfiver.

I'm not in Japan so having this moon in whatever cloud cover depending on thickness may have given visual horizon hint?

Then there is a problem (if DAS ignored and we are in nonDAS aircraft) the clouds if visual have a skewed visual base might give the wroing impression to a pilot causing any spatialD to worsen perhaps. As we have discussed the possible causes of this accident are unfathomable without further information. I guess pilot not found yet?

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 01:41
by Gums
Salute!

You don't call for an abort if you are experiencing spatial-d or you just fly into the drink withpout a clue or the FLCS stops and you go end over end..

Something happened and he wisely called "knock it off". And then the grim reaper caught up.

Gums opines...

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 01:47
by spazsinbad
Agree, one calls stop to then concentrate on FLYING THE AIRCRAFT firstly whilst everything else becomes secondary. You've heard my favourite nite catapult SD story so stop me if youse can. My CO was in FLYCO when I said to the 'fighter controller' something to the effect that I'm not going to follow directions (hdg/altitude/speed or whatever) because I'm disorientated and I'm flying wings level and climbing. CO said something to the effect of keep doing that until you are OK.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 01:48
by quicksilver
“...going by pilot comments that it was terrific having a horizon at night...”

Thermal doesn’t provide horizon “no matter what.” May just have been a nice night to fly.

Link to discussion of diurnal crossover and consequence for thermal imagers —

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2003SPIE.5097...58R

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 01:57
by spazsinbad
:mrgreen: LITERALLY I'M NOT BUYING IT! :mrgreen: As I understand I have the wrong idea about why F-35C pilots particularly can see the night horizon during a carrier approach (these experiences would have been in the simulator well before any actual night carrier approaches - not sure what the actual night guys have said now but do recall the 'green glow' issues ((not caused by the horizon))). I'd be interested to know more about the phenomena of 'night horizon at sea in an F-35 via any instruments' if anyone has any FREE info on it. TIA.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 01:58
by quicksilver
“You don't call for an abort if you are experiencing spatial-d”

Assume you mean ‘unrecognized’ spatial ‘d’, otherwise I disagree.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 01:59
by spazsinbad
quicksilver wrote:“You don't call for an abort if you are experiencing spatial-d”
Assume you mean ‘unrecognized’ spatial ‘d’, otherwise I disagree.

Your cryptic response has me confused. Please explain. Thanks. OK I get part of my confusion - I took it that 'GUMS' meant he would call for an abort to deal with any SD. People make lots of typing errors here so I try to 'read between the lines/ errors'. You may notice I make lots of deliberate spelling mistakes because that is who I am: 'SPAZSINBAD!' the 1st. :wink:

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 02:12
by quicksilver
spazsinbad wrote:
quicksilver wrote:“You don't call for an abort if you are experiencing spatial-d”
Assume you mean ‘unrecognized’ spatial ‘d’, otherwise I disagree.

Your cryptic response has me confused. Please explain. Thanks.


I quoted gums. Some spatial d is recognized, some is not. I have had — and recognized I was having at the moment — spatial d, as both a flight lead and a wingman on several occasions. I declared same, and have lived to tell the tale. Had a flight leads declare same in IMC, daytime, at night, over water, and in some really snotty stuff. Calling an abort would not be unusual in my experience.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_disorientation

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 02:17
by spazsinbad
OK thanks. I took it that 'GUMS' meant the opposite to what he typed in error considering the rest of the sentence. BUT I COULD BE TODALLY RONG and a dancing fool. Meanwhile here is the first F-35C nite cat shot in BARMY weather! :devil:

For 'scared' one may guess a tad bit of disorientation also probably; but HEY I WAS NOT THERE; didn't see nothing/nussink.

F-35C Test Pilot Comment 1st Night Catapult Afterburner Use https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XffGeiN96Ow


Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 03:02
by marauder2048
quicksilver wrote:Re: low time in model, I’d have to know more about the transition/conversion syllabus, the type of training mission code they were flying, how much recent flt and sim time in the last 30/60/90 days, and other recent personal activity. Then there’s the aircraft maintenance history...


The pilot would be, by USAF standards, an inexperienced F-35 pilot (under 100 hours).
He would not be qualified, by USAF standards, to lead a four-ship flight, at night and over water no
matter the mission type.

I'm merely stating USAF standards that have been published but it's also consistent with the
mishap reports you read when the mishap pilot is undergoing flight lead upgrade training;
they typically have hundreds of hours in that type.

Not trying to blame the dead it's just something any AIB would look at along with the mishap
pilot's nigh-vision technology hours.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 03:35
by quicksilver
When everyone is new to the aircraft, someone has to lead.

So, who do you pick?

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 03:55
by Gums
Salute!

Spaz and Quick figured out what I really meant. You know, "what the captain really means...." Thanks for understanding.

Of course
, if you are disoriented and don't know it, all bets are off. What I meant was if the guy was having a problem and wanted a time to recover and get his act together then he may have called :knock it off".

Think about an ACT missions and soon the MFWIC realizes things are outta control, "Knock it off".

Everyone calms down, regroups and we start over.
++++++++++++++++++++++
I stand by my initial theory that something bad happened and then it got worse.

Gums...

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 04:57
by marauder2048
quicksilver wrote:When everyone is new to the aircraft, someone has to lead.

So, who do you pick?


Someone who has been qualified as a four-ship flight lead at the international training center?
That's a major selling point of it especially since you had instructors there with 500 F-35 hours
as of 3 years ago.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 08:51
by vilters
Spatial disorientation is nothing to joke about.

Training and fights can be hard and furious and every fighter pilot get this from time to time, certainly in low VMC or IMC or at dark nights.

In the past the reaction was rather "easy" => Goto instruments and stay on instruments till fully recovered.

In older aircraft one thing was for granted. => The instruments and the hud where the FRONT of the aircraft.

I think we can all understand that with helmet mouted flight instruments, this takes some time getting used to.

Your primary flight instruments (helmet mounted) and the nose of the aircraft are not guaranteed to be in the same spot any more what adds to the initial confusion.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 09:21
by spazsinbad
'vilters' said: "...Your primary flight instruments (helmet mounted) and the nose of the aircraft are not guaranteed to be in the same spot any more what adds to the initial confusion...." You need to explain what you mean by this because it is not clear to me what you are attempting to describe, correct or not. Pilot Flying information may be seen anywhere via the HMDS whilst the vHUD is always in the same place on the nose of the aircraft as one would expect, as has been explained by 'QS' in a much earlier thread about all of this. However the vHUD front view may be switched to a rear view also.

Here Helmet-mounted displays search - top left 'vHUD': viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223

vHUD view looking forward: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=288480&hilit=vHUD#p288480

Good 'QuickSilver' explaino: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=234157&hilit=vHUD#p234157
"...The HMDS provides a range of functions for the pilot. One is the virtual HUD or VHUD. The VHUD is projected on the visor where one would find a conventional HUD in a legacy jet -- oriented on a fixed reference to the aircraft -- e.g. the waterline, FRL or whatever they call it in the jets some of you have flown...."


SKAFF the designer: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=221823&hilit=vHUD#p221823
(End of page quote below is about the last two graphics as seen above (13th & 14th slides).) Grfx LINK below post.

"...The HMD with vHUD opens the view into over 41000 square degrees. This is the full sphere surrounding the aircraft. The thirteenth slide provides an example of the vHUD when the pilot looks directly forward where a physical HUD would be. F-35 pilots report that in about 10 minutes they become accustomed to the vHUD. The pilots recognize the potential improvements in lethality and survivability of the HMD.

The final slide provides an example of off axis symbology. In general, Lockheed only take key flight parameters and tactical symbology off axis. In the future Lockheed will investigate off axis attitude awareness symbology. The mil standards don’t yet address HMDs and off axis symbology. Lockheed will work with the Services to improve and update The standard as well as the HMD symbology."" http://www.sldinfo.com/whitepapers/the- ... ion-maker/


viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=221805&hilit=White+Paper#p221805

Image

Image

Image

Image

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 12:30
by Gamera
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... onews-soci

2019/04/12:
Training was two versus two.
Accident pilot's final radio contact, "Suspend training," was one minute before radar contact lost.

http://www.atv.jp/news/?id=00006684

2019/04/11:
Pilot was Major Hosomi Akinori (41).

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 15:28
by saberrider
spazsinbad wrote:'vilters' said: "...Your primary flight instruments (helmet mounted) and the nose of the aircraft are not guaranteed to be in the same spot any more what adds to the initial confusion...." You need to explain what you mean by this because it is not clear to me what you are attempting to describe, correct or not. Pilot Flying information may be seen anywhere via the HMDS whilst the vHUD is always in the same place on the nose of the aircraft as one would expect, as has been explained by 'QS' in a much earlier thread about all of this. However the vHUD front view may be switched to a rear view also.

Here Helmet-mounted displays search - top left 'vHUD': viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223

vHUD view looking forward: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=288480&hilit=vHUD#p288480

Good 'QuickSilver' explaino: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=234157&hilit=vHUD#p234157
"...The HMDS provides a range of functions for the pilot. One is the virtual HUD or VHUD. The VHUD is projected on the visor where one would find a conventional HUD in a legacy jet -- oriented on a fixed reference to the aircraft -- e.g. the waterline, FRL or whatever they call it in the jets some of you have flown...."


SKAFF the designer: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=221823&hilit=vHUD#p221823
(End of page quote below is about the last two graphics as seen above (13th & 14th slides).) Grfx LINK below post.

"...The HMD with vHUD opens the view into over 41000 square degrees. This is the full sphere surrounding the aircraft. The thirteenth slide provides an example of the vHUD when the pilot looks directly forward where a physical HUD would be. F-35 pilots report that in about 10 minutes they become accustomed to the vHUD. The pilots recognize the potential improvements in lethality and survivability of the HMD.

The final slide provides an example of off axis symbology. In general, Lockheed only take key flight parameters and tactical symbology off axis. In the future Lockheed will investigate off axis attitude awareness symbology. The mil standards don’t yet address HMDs and off axis symbology. Lockheed will work with the Services to improve and update The standard as well as the HMD symbology."" http://www.sldinfo.com/whitepapers/the- ... ion-maker/


viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=221805&hilit=White+Paper#p221805

Image

Image

Image

Image

I guess he talking about the inner ear info. (Otolits floating in liquid)telling lies to the brain about true position of the pilots body and VHUD information in front of the eyes confused more pilots brain

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 15:41
by spazsinbad
I do not think the entire previous post had to be QUOTED to input your two lines of text. What you describe is ONE aspect of SPATIAL Disorientation (SD) which has many emenations. Mostly it is cured by flying 'straight & level' which is pilot shorthand for "straight (not turning) with LEVEL wings and perhaps a level attitude (not climbing or descending) depending on the circumstances. This cure helps to stop the physical causes that are out of aircrew control because they are the product of airyplane flight conditions. Probably like EVERY fast jet military pilot I have suffered from SD however training and briefings about it helped me cope (as others have done as they have attested here and elsewhere in this forum). There is information on internet about SD for aircrew & how to combat it. There is at least a PDF about it on this forum.

Amongst the many posts scattered throughout this forum there is a 150 page PDF about it and other avMed stuff here:

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=53778&p=387208&hilit=%2ASpatial+Disorientation%2A#p387208
OR
download/file.php?id=26467 Hypoxia&SpatialDisorientation&AeroMedical+Gtolerance+Neck PRN pp150.pdf 10.7Mb

A :D FUNNI :shock: article about SD not in above PDF here: [NOW 10 page PDF of it attached below]
http://navalaviationnews.navylive.dodli ... ientation/

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 20:03
by marsavian
F-35A crash: Japan’s defense minister addresses security concerns, procurement plans

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... ent-plans/

Japan has started combing the seafloor of the Pacific Ocean for the wreckage of its F-35A Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, two days after the aircraft crashed into waters off northern Japan.

Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya, addressing the media on Friday morning Tokyo time, said the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force has deployed a submarine rescue vessel to search the depths in the area where the F-35A crashed. The area is estimated to be about 5,000 feet (1,500 meters) deep.

The pilot of the crashed F-35, who the Japan Air Self-Defense Force identified as 41-year-old Maj. Akinori Hosomi, is still missing. He was taking part in an air combat training mission with three other F-35s on Tuesday evening when the pilot and aircraft lost contact with other members of the flight and disappeared from radar approximately 85 miles (135 kilometers) east of Misawa Air Base in the northern part of Japan’s main island of Honshu.

The Misawa-based aircraft disappeared soon after Hosomi — who had 3,200 flight hours under his belt that included 60 on the F-35A — told the other pilots taking part to end the training portion of the flight. No other communication was subsequently heard from him, and none of the other pilots saw the aircraft crash.

Iwaya also confirmed that there is no intention to revise Japan’s procurement of more F-35s pending the results of an investigation into the crash. Japan plans to acquire a total of 147 F-35s, split into 105 F-35A and 42 F-35B.

The minister was asked about the possibility of China or Russia attempting to salvage the crashed F-35 from the seafloor given the highly classified nature of the technology onboard the stealth jet. He said no unusual activity had been observed at the crash site, although Japanese forces are continuing to monitor the situation.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing - needless quotes

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 22:21
by Gums
Salute!

@ saberrider !!

I think you have already been advised to avoid using entire posts as a quote.

- for one thing, we have likely read the post. So just use the link number
- consider snipping a relevant sentence or two. I am not even sure what your point is
- finally, I am on a "pay per byte" account with my satellite Needless tripe and graphics and videos and..... are expensive

Gums sends...

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 22:49
by spazsinbad
This cartoon by CARUSO (the GREAT) from NAN Naval Aviation News October 2012 PDF above says it all....

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 23:02
by spazsinbad
Seems to me to be part of a 'beat up' of events which occur with military aircraft. Firstly a TEST flight & then a :doh: malfunction - which happens. Do I need to itemize my aircraft malfunctions whilst flying - GAWD I'd be here forever. :roll: AND THEN there is BEFORE FLYING so I actually stayed on the ground but I have NO recollection of these MANY times. :shock:
Defense Ministry: F35A had 2 emergency landings
11-12 Apr 2019 NHKworld

"Japan's Defense Ministry says an F35A fighter jet that crashed into the sea off northern Japan on Tuesday had made two emergency landings in the last two years. State Minister of Defense Kenji Harada was speaking at a Lower House committee meeting on Thursday.

The minister referred to a test flight by US manufacturer Lockheed Martin in June, 2017, before Japan deployed the aircraft. He said the flight was aborted after a cooling system alert. The minister said the manufacturer found faults in the system and replaced the defective parts before delivering the jet to the defense ministry.

A ministry official also said at the committee meeting that while the same aircraft was flying in bad weather last August, there was a malfunction in the position indicator [whatever that is]. The Defense Ministry says the defective parts were replaced...."

Source: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20190412_11/

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 23:59
by blindpilot
spazsinbad wrote:THEN there is BEFORE FLYING so I actually stayed on the ground but I have NO recollection of these MANY times. :shock:


Well said. Made me mindful of one of those "shoulda been dead" moments.
In the midst of waived flight rules supporting a tense week in SE Asia we took off with a bad epr gage. Non problem ... that flight.. The next day it happened again in the chocks. "Not today," we decided, and turned it over to the crew chief, while we went to get a snack... before that the chief asked us to run up the engine and its companion on the other wing. (to avoid ground looping) He banged the gage and discerned "yep bad gage.." at which time the "good" engine shelled, like a nice fireworks show.. Good thing we weren't just lifting off as we had the day before.

Bottom line - Sh*t happens. Primary cause in our case. Wearing out the airplane with too many back to back to back sorties, without tender loving care it needed.

But bottom line. Best we not dwell too much on "shoulda been dead's" and move forward with any lessons learned. Pilot and family in my prayers.

FWIW,
BP

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2019, 00:15
by neurotech
spazsinbad wrote:Seems to me to be part of a 'beat up' of events which occur with military aircraft. Firstly a TEST flight & then a :doh: malfunction - which happens. Do I need to itemize my aircraft malfunctions whilst flying - GAWD I'd be here forever. :roll: AND THEN there is BEFORE FLYING so I actually stayed on the ground but I have NO recollection of these MANY times. :shock:

Pilots who regularly fly post-maintenance Functional Check Flights, depending on a variety of factors, often end up with multiple emergency landings a month. Even more if you count "precautionary" landings.

One particular jet having 2 emergency landings in 2 years, is exceptionally few, considering all the situations that would require an emergency landing.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2019, 01:23
by spazsinbad
Whilst said landings may have not been 'emergency' but just poor characterization by somebody plain ignorant. As 'neurotech' says these 'events' could have been precautionary landings or OTHERWISE A NON-EVENT except a/c write-up.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2019, 12:27
by zero-one
Question, what other countries have licensed built or at least locally assembled F-35s
Japan, Italy, who else?

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2019, 12:49
by spazsinbad
Daunting salvage task awaits Japanese F-35 investigators baffled by crash
11 Apr 2019 Tim Kelly

"TOKYO (Reuters) - Two days after one of Japan’s F-35 stealth fighters plunged into the Pacific and no closer to finding out why it happened, investigators face a daunting task to recover what remains of the highly classified jet from the ocean depths. Air Self Defense Force (ASDF) investigators have found small sections of the F-35’s wing floating in the sea which suggests the advanced aircraft hit the water, but not why it disappeared from radar screens without warning.

“We have not recovered anything that would point to a cause,” an air force official told Reuters as the search continues for the missing pilot. The remaining wreckage of the $126 million fighter lies at a depth of around 1,500 meters (4922 ft), including the flight data recorder which would shed light on what happened off the coast of northern Japan on Wednesday evening....

...The normally stealthy Lockheed Martin jet is fitted with a transponder that pings its position and can be configured to light up on radar scopes during training flights, the air force official said. Radar operators tracking the jet received a training abort message from the lost aircraft before it disappeared about 135 km (84 miles) east of the base. There was no communication from the pilot indicating a problem with the aircraft.

The plane was not on a low-level practice run, suggesting the veteran pilot with 3,200 hours of flying time but only 60 hours in the F-35, should have had time to react to an emergency, the air force official said.

DEEP WATER
The military may have to hire marine salvage firms with submersible craft able to recover wreckage from deep water. The candidates include Japan’s two biggest marine salvage firms...."

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japa ... SKCN1RN1BE

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2019, 13:24
by mixelflick
I don't mean to make light of this, but it reads precisely like a Tom Clancy novel.

Prayers for the pilot and his family/squadron mates..

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2019, 14:14
by Gums
Salute!

Thanks, Spaz..
And looks like the spokesman has same opinion that I expressed after my Tom Clancy suggestion. Something bad happened, he made the "knock it off" call, then somthing worse happened.

The plane was not on a low-level practice run, suggesting the veteran pilot with 3,200 hours of flying time but only 60 hours in the F-35, should have had time to react to an emergency, the air force official said.

DEEP WATER
The military may have to hire marine salvage firms with submersible craft able to recover wreckage from deep water. The candidates include Japan’s two biggest marine salvage firms...


I would hope the government would look at the outfit that recovered Air France 447 after previous ones failed. They are the same ones that found Yorktown, Scorpion, and Titanic And this wrekage hs a much better position and much more shallow ocean floor. Meanwhile, throw nickel on the grass.

Gums sends...

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2019, 22:40
by citanon
Sounding like an in flight medical emergency. Any possibility if running into a massive flock of birds at altitude at their location?

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2019, 12:05
by Gamera
(For comparison: ROKAF F-35A not grounded because they were made in and sent from USA, not assembled in Japan.)

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20190411000750

Korea’s F-35A procurement unaffected by crash in Japan: ministry

2019/04/11

The Ministry of National Defense said the recent crash will not influence its purchase of the fighter jets as there have been no safety notices from the US Pacific Air Force.

The Korean Air Force has explained that the stealth fighters it is going to deploy will come directly from the US, unlike Japan’s warplane that was assembled and checked by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries before delivery.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2019, 12:49
by ricnunes
citanon wrote:Sounding like an in flight medical emergency.


IMO, that sounds like a sound theory indeed. It fits with the only known fact which is that the pilot declared a training abort and that the plane actually crashed which apparently happened just after the pilot's last call.
If the pilot had a serious medical problem like lets say a stroke for example, this could IMO fit in the line of the known events that lead to the crash.

Also IMO, the other possibility could be what I posted in my first and last post here in this thread which could be a critical problem with the airframe/aircraft itself, probably related to something that went wrong in the assembly of that same aircraft. I would say the fact that only the F-35A fleet built/assembled in Japan is grounded while the fleets built/assembled in the USA and Italy aren't seem to point out that at least the investigators are seriously considering this possibility (but again these are my 2 cents).
Don't know if there could be any relation with the above or not but the F-35 that crashed was precisely the very first F-35A built/assembled in Japan...

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2019, 16:00
by citanon
An in flight air frame problem that could explain the lack of a radio call would have to be sudden and catastrophic, like that F-15 that had its nose and cockpit snapping off during maneuvers. :shock:

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2019, 16:30
by ricnunes
Yes, that's indeed one of the possibilities that crossed my mind.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2019, 17:46
by lamoey
I'm wondering how much health information MADL may be transmitting to the other F-35's in the fligth? Does it send its own position and or 3D vector? If any of this comes accross the MADL link, then LM and JASDF may know more about this than us outsiders will ever learn.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2019, 23:56
by sferrin
citanon wrote:An in flight air frame problem that could explain the lack of a radio call would have to be sudden and catastrophic, like that F-15 that had its nose and cockpit snapping off during maneuvers. :shock:


Pretty unlikely. That F-15 was high in hours and the longeron was apparently a hidden defect.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2019, 00:11
by Corsair1963
Most Air Accidents/Crashes are more often than not caused by a combination of factors.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2019, 00:28
by quicksilver
citanon wrote:An in flight air frame problem that could explain the lack of a radio call would have to be sudden and catastrophic, like that F-15 that had its nose and cockpit snapping off during maneuvers. :shock:


Riiiight... :roll:

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2019, 00:32
by quicksilver
sferrin wrote:
citanon wrote:An in flight air frame problem that could explain the lack of a radio call would have to be sudden and catastrophic, like that F-15 that had its nose and cockpit snapping off during maneuvers. :shock:


Pretty unlikely. That F-15 was high in hours and the longeron was apparently a hidden defect.


sf was being generous. More like ‘highly’ unlikely, as in ‘an intergalactic improbability.’

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2019, 01:33
by spazsinbad
quicksilver wrote:
sferrin wrote:
citanon wrote:An in flight air frame problem that could explain the lack of a radio call would have to be sudden and catastrophic, like that F-15 that had its nose and cockpit snapping off during maneuvers. :shock:

Pretty unlikely. That F-15 was high in hours and the longeron was apparently a hidden defect.

sf was being generous. More like ‘highly’ unlikely, as in ‘an intergalactic improbability.’

Will all respect to deceased pilot, inflight aircraft breaking up is like suggesting he was abducted by aliens, leaving the aircraft to crash into the sea. Engine fire could leave time for ejection - I would look for him in area 51? As has been mentioned already just speculating on an accident cause WITHOUT ANY OTHER INFORMATION is really not a good idea.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2019, 02:45
by citanon
I think it's unlikely too but some major flaw in the fuselage assembly would be one thing to rule out if you have an airplane suddenly disappear without a follow-up message from the pilot.

If it crashed with no messages: controlled flight into terrain would be a strong possibility.

However, pilot radioed knock it off. So, if we follow Gum's theory if bad to worse, we have to explain.

If it's a heart attack pilot would usually still be able to speak.

Stroke, possibly with rapid onset of confusion.

Other than that you'd have to think whatever "worse" was he had no time to communicate it.

Possibility 1: still controlled flight into the ocean. Problem was when he called knock it off he didn't realize which way he was pointed and how close he was to the deck.

Possibility 2: malfunction then call knock it off. Next moments are fighting some spectacular malfunction that left no time for communication. Then malfunction won in a way that made it impossible to radio SOS.

Until 2 is ruled out all the Japanese assembled planes are now suspect.

I've heard of crazy things. My dad was a mechanic in a foreign air force. One time they had an engine fall out of a jet in flight (I have no idea how) because a country bumpkin mechanic neglected to properly bolt it in.

Even with a new airframe if somebody used bolts or load bearing components that are not properly treated or out of spec? Until you can rule it out you've got to wonder.

This against a background if recent scandals regarding falsification of materials testing data and inferior quality materials in Japan:

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Busine ... to-fix-it2

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2019, 02:49
by spazsinbad
So it seems you are willing to wonder away and bore us all to tears? Just wait for more information - thank you. You may ponder why so little was said on the radio at the time: Aviate - Navigate - Communicate note first & last items.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2019, 03:29
by citanon
spazsinbad wrote:So it seems you are willing to wonder away and bore us all to tears? Just wait for more information - thank you. You may ponder why so little was said on the radio at the time: Aviate - Navigate - Communicate note first & last items.


I find waiting boring and wondering fun. To each his own.

I'm well aware of the hierarchy of tasks. What's remarkable to me is that he did not have time for a mayday or, it appears, to eject.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2019, 03:41
by XanderCrews
citanon wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:So it seems you are willing to wonder away and bore us all to tears? Just wait for more information - thank you. You may ponder why so little was said on the radio at the time: Aviate - Navigate - Communicate note first & last items.


I find waiting boring and wondering fun. To each his own.

I'm well aware of the hierarchy of tasks. What's remarkable to me is that he did not have time for a mayday or, it appears, to eject.



speculation sucks. it creates false narratives, some of which are never debunked. Which is one of the reasons I wait for the final report.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2019, 05:41
by spazsinbad
Submarine Rescue Ship, Air Force U-2 Join Search for Missing Japanese Pilot, F-35A
15 Apr 2019 Ben Werner

"A U.S. surveillance plane and a recently commissioned Japanese submarine rescue ship are now scanning the ocean floor in search of a downed F-35A....

...Also over the weekend, Japan dispatched one of its newest ships, JS Chiyoda (ASR-404), the flagship of Japan’s submarine rescue fleet, Japan’s Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya, said during a media briefing Friday according to The Japan Times. Along with sensors, Chiyoda carries two deep-sea search vessels outfitted with cameras. The F-35 is thought to have crashed in a part of the Pacific that is about 5,000 feet deep. A U.S. Air Force U-2 reconnaissance plane joined the U.S. military and Japan self-defense forces search for the F-35A, Stars and Stripes reported.

The U.S. Navy sent USS Stethem (DDG-63) and P-8A Poseidon maritime surveillance aircraft assigned to Patrol Squadron (VP) 8 and Patrol Squadron (VP) 5 to assist with the search efforts.

U.S. and Japanese forces are attempting to recover as much of the downed aircraft as possible. The concern is if other nations, such as Russia and China, find part of the downed aircraft, their scientists could figure out ways to neutralize the effectiveness of some the F-35’s stealth, radar and sensors...."

Source: https://news.usni.org/2019/04/15/submar ... ilot-f-35a

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2019, 14:09
by Gamera
https://www.jiji.com/jc/article?k=2019041700001&g=soc

2019/04/17:
MOD stated JMSDF allocated submarine rescue ship ASR-404 JDS Chiyoda, destroyer DD-107 JDS Ikaduchi, and SH-60K helicopters to accident area.
Their sonars had not detected any signal from F-35 FDR [flight data recorder].

MOD stated radar loss location was not crash location.

2018/12/06, USMC F/A-18 and KC-130 crashed into sea, near Kouchi Prefecture.
After two weeks, detected signal from FDR of F/A-18 or KC-130, at depth 3,000 m.

USN used TPL-25 towed pinger locator could detect signal down to 6,000 m.

2019/02/20, JASDF F-2 crashed into sea, near Yamaguchi Prefecture.
2019/04/07, recovered FDR of F-2, but from shallow depth 100 m.

Article claims government person [anonymous] claimed F-2 FDR beacon did not activate, and 1.5 month after crash, battery expired.

Accident F-35 had newest Block 3F mission system software.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2019, 22:27
by energo
Gamera wrote:Accident F-35 had newest Block 3F mission system software.


Thank's for the update, Gamera.

Auto GCAS is not operational yet, if I'm not mistaking?

I'm leaning towards hypoxia:
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/12/poli ... index.html

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2019, 22:49
by SpudmanWP
Auto GCAS is coming in a few months.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2019, 22:50
by spazsinbad
Old news about the 'non-event' hypoxia issues in the F-35. These events have been discussed elsewhere with a recent VADM Winter testifying F-35 bits in thread: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=53778&p=416216&hilit=Winter#p416216

Key phrase about F-35 at Luke AFB is "five pilots experienced hypoxia-like symptoms". A reporter interview with a non-US pilot seemed to me to indicate he had not been properly trained in aviation medicine about these issues (ignorant).

Report cited above says: "...Graff said that it's still not clear what caused the oxygen incidents, but said that the pause was confined to Luke because "no other incidents have been reported" at any other Air Force bases since May 2...."

Unfortunately the F-35 was lumped in with other miljets experiencing an 'oxygen issue'. Until wreckage recovered / accident investigated one (IF ONLY ME) can conjure a MILLION reasons why the aircraft crashed but these are useless.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2019, 00:45
by energo
Of course, Spaz. But tragedy aside, some good old speculation doesn't hurt. As long as it's good speculation. :poke:

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2019, 07:45
by spazsinbad
On previous page 'QS' made a good point about 'speculation' (with little IF NO details). Any NAVY pilots here will have lost comrades over water, with little to no indication that something went wrong, & it remains thus for Davy Jones Locker.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2019, 09:53
by citanon
spazsinbad wrote:On previous page 'QS' made a good point about 'speculation' (with little IF NO details). Any NAVY pilots here will have lost comrades over water, with little to no indication that something went wrong, & it remains thus for Davy Jones Locker.


What were the most common reasons ultimately assigned?

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2019, 10:15
by spazsinbad
citanon wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:On previous page 'QS' made a good point about 'speculation' (with little IF NO details). Any NAVY pilots here will have lost comrades over water, with little to no indication that something went wrong, & it remains thus for Davy Jones Locker.


What were the most common reasons ultimately assigned?

When cause is unknown it is unknown (what you don't know, you don't know - you don't know) famous CMDR Air saying. One personally known to me (however the actual accident report unknown to me until forty years later so for a long time I knew only some little parts of what transpired) the experienced pilot in a TA4G crashed into the sea without any indication/ radio call there was a problem. He may have only managed to partly clear the aircraft ejecting as it entered the water - the rear seat of a TA-4 always ejects first with the front seat half a second later IIRC. In those days (1974) aircraft remained on sea floor (water deep of that part of NSW coast). Sometimes trawlers bring up parts of an aircraft - this has happened to an A4G crash (pilot ejected OK so lots known about cause of crash with wingman an eyewitness to engine fire). Sometimes very old bits of very old aircraft recovered by trawling nets - nothing comes of it - too long ago.

I have read many APPROACH and other safety publication crash at sea stories. Aircraft lost. Next. For a long time the USN puzzled over A-4s turning violently left off the catapult without pilot ejecting, aircraft down in the sea. Then our first catapult A4G (with some excess airspeed as a precaution also he was likely at lightweight so that the aircraft could turn downwind for the first approach for the first arrest etc.) from MELBOURNE went violently left but control regained by skilled pilot using trim buttons (with excess airspeed) recovering to NAS Nowra at fast approach speed into a short field arrest. The radar module had come out into his lap during the catapult stroke pinning the control column back and to the left. Pilot cannot eject with damn thing half out of the front instrument panel wedged as it was (damn heavy). This safe recovery solved a lot of UNKNOWN USN fatal off the catapult A-4 Accidents. I've told this story in another thread....

An earlier telling: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=52644&p=371330&hilit=NwIKq35wptE#p371330
with: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=52644&p=371341&hilit=radar#p371341
RADAR 1st CATAPULT RAN FAA Skyhawk A4G 887 pp12.pdf (7.7Mb) download/file.php?id=24988

I'll leave others to contribute about other USN or other Naval Air Arm Unknown accidents (night is often the time).

A-4 Catapult Jammed Controls by Radar? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwIKq35wptE


Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2019, 10:50
by Gamera
spazsinbad wrote:When cause is unknown it is unknown (what you don't know, you don't know - you don't know) famous CMDR Air saying.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know.
And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.[1]"

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2019, 11:24
by spazsinbad
Hmmm 2002. CMDR AIR NAS Nowra said what he said to a group of us new midshipmen straight out of flying training in a meet & greet January 1969. He was famous for it so must have said it earlier than that date also.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2019, 12:58
by sferrin
So. . .any news about the F-35 that went down?

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2019, 13:16
by Gamera
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... inawat-oki
http://www.ultradeepsolutions.com/van-gogh-dsv.html

2019/04/17:
DSV Van Gogh, a civilian salvage ship of Ultra Deep Solutions, docked at Naha military port, Okinawa Prefecture.

Rimpeace, an Okinawa-based civilian organisation that monitors US military in Okinawa, claims DSV Van Gogh could recover objects from depth 3,000 m.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2019, 13:52
by spazsinbad
Japan's F-35As had 7 emergency landings before crash
17 Apr 2019 Danielle Haynes

"April 17 (UPI) -- In the months before Japan's first F-35A stealth fighter jets crashed in the Pacific Ocean, the country's air force made seven emergency [what constitutes an emergency?] landings of the aircraft, Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya said....

...Speaking during a news conference Tuesday, Iwaya said the seven precautionary landings [oooh suits you sir - precautionary NOT emergency] each happened before the end of February. Of those landings, seven involved aircraft assembled in Japan and one assembled in the United States. The plane that crashed made two of the emergency [oh grow up] landings. [ https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20 ... na/006000c explains much more better below]

Iwaya said a pilot made one landing in response to a cooling system warning light and another pilot made a landing due to a navigation system problem....

...Though the Japanese coast guard and U.S. Forces Japan suspended their search for the missing pilot from the April 9 crash, the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force search was underway.

"Though U.S. search and rescue efforts have ended, we will continue to coordinate with our Japanese partners on efforts to locate and recovery the missing aircraft," U.S. Air Force Col. John Hutcheson told Stars and Stripes."

Source: https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2019/0 ... 555517312/

Japan's F-35A jets in 7 emergency landings prior to Pacific crash [EMERGENCY!? Suits You Sir - know wot I mean]
17 Apr 2019 (Mainichi Japan)

"...Of the 13 planes provided by the United States to Japan, five have been forced to make emergency landings in seven incidents. Of these, two emergency landings were due to faults recorded in the recently crashed jet. The ministry claims it confirmed the aircraft were safe to fly after each case, but a possible connection is still being investigated.

The Ministry of Defense said the emergency landings took place between June 2017 and January 2019 during flight tests and drills. Unplanned returns to base were made after the planes reported issues with systems relating to fuel, hydraulics and other parts. Excluding one case of an error by the aircraft's monitoring systems, the remaining six saw the fighters inspected and parts replaced before they were confirmed safe to fly.

Final assembly of four of the error reporting planes, including the fighter that went missing April 9, was carried out in Japan by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. The other aircraft was built and assembled in the U.S. Earlier reports showed the crashed fighter had issues with its cooling and navigation systems twice, on June 20, 2017, and Aug. 8, 2018, respectively...."

Source: https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20 ... na/006000c

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2019, 16:45
by energo
spazsinbad wrote:On previous page 'QS' made a good point about 'speculation' (with little IF NO details). Any NAVY pilots here will have lost comrades over water, with little to no indication that something went wrong, & it remains thus for Davy Jones Locker.


We could simply log off the forum and wait for the full report.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2019, 19:06
by spazsinbad
You're welcome.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 19 Apr 2019, 15:51
by Gamera
https://www.yomiuri.co.jp/world/20190419-OYT1T50313/

2019/04/18, Pentagon says US military will stop their SAR activity, and continue to support Japanese military SAR activity.
US military SAR activity included Aegis warship and maritime patrol aircraft.

https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... 0-jij-soci

2019/04/18, JASDF announced radio chatter amongst accident pilot, his three wingmen, and ground control were normal, from take off to during training.
En route to training area, they discussed flight course, training contents, and weather condition.

During training, accident pilot instructed his wingmen.
One minute before radar loss, he said "Knock it off", to suspend training, but did not say any reason to suspend training.

JMSDF ship(s) recovered left and right tail fins.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 19 Apr 2019, 16:40
by sferrin
As soon as the US leaves China will move in.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 19 Apr 2019, 21:19
by spazsinbad
Thanks 'Gamera' - interesting radio chatter details etc. Please keep us posted on developments.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2019, 00:43
by edpop
Japan’s first F-35A stealth fighter reportedly made seven emergency landings in the months prior to crashing in the Pacific Ocean last week. The Japanese Air Force started using its fleet of 13 F35As in January. On April 9, the first plane of Mitsubishi assembly crashed. Of the 13 planes provided by the United States to Japan, five have been forced to make emergency landings in seven incidents. The plane that crashed made two of the emergency landings. Final assembly of four of the error reporting planes, including the fighter that went missing, was carried out in Japan by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. The other aircraft was built and assembled in the US. The crashed fighter reportedly had issues with its cooling and navigation systems twice. Japan grounded its fleet of 13 F-35As in the wake of the crash.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2019, 01:58
by spazsinbad
edpop wrote:Japan’s first F-35A stealth fighter reportedly made seven emergency landings in the months prior to crashing in the Pacific Ocean last week. The Japanese Air Force started using its fleet of 13 F35As in January. On April 9, the first plane of Mitsubishi assembly crashed. Of the 13 planes provided by the United States to Japan, five have been forced to make emergency landings in seven incidents. The plane that crashed made two of the emergency landings. Final assembly of four of the error reporting planes, including the fighter that went missing, was carried out in Japan by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. The other aircraft was built and assembled in the US. The crashed fighter reportedly had issues with its cooling and navigation systems twice. Japan grounded its fleet of 13 F-35As in the wake of the crash.

'edpop' these 'landings' noted earlier previous page: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=55255&p=417091&hilit=haynes#p417091

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2019, 12:24
by Gamera
No problemo, dude.

A bit OT: I've always wondered if these F-16.net forums have other members who are Korean language-fluent, and follow ROKAF (at least) KF-16 and F-35 news?

Years ago, I tried to research KF-16 accident details, but even with Google Translate and other on-line tools, I just couldn't dig into Korean blogs and news sites the same way I can with Chinese and Japanese blogs and news sites. 8(
So I gave up following ROKAF accidents/crashes.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2019, 22:28
by energo

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2019, 01:35
by spazsinbad
:devil: I have the BIG FISH: Monty Python - The Fish Slapping Dance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8XeDvKqI4E


Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2019, 05:47
by Gamera
https://news.yahoo.co.jp/byline/obiekt/ ... -00123056/

2019/04/20:
Japanese bloggers and reporters noted, on the deck of the Van Gogh, were containers marked NAVY SUPSALV (Supervisor of Salvage and Diving, USN).

BTW, because she's all red, a few bloggers nicknamed her as "Rewloola".

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2019, 08:21
by sdkf251
Gamera wrote:https://news.yahoo.co.jp/byline/obiekt/20190420-00123056/

2019/04/20:
Japanese bloggers and reporters noted, on the deck of the Van Gogh, were containers marked NAVY SUPSALV (Supervisor of Salvage and Diving, USN).

BTW, because she's all red, a few bloggers nicknamed her as "Rewloola".


Just like that F-14 in the old days. Always an inspiration to see professionals do the difficult things just like a day at work.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2019, 11:38
by Gamera
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... 47-jij-pol
https://www.jiji.com/jc/article?k=2019042300379&g=soc

2019/04/19, MOD requested assistance from Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science, and Technology.

2019/04/22, Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science, and Technology agreed to send Kaimei, an undersea wide area research vessel operated by JAMSTEC [Japan Agency for Marine Earth Science and Technology].

https://www.jamstec.go.jp/j/about/equip ... aimei.html

Her undersea drone(s) can descend to depth 3,000 m.

2008 February, after JDS Atago and fishing boat collided, JAMSTEC also sent Kaiyou and Natsushima.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2019, 10:20
by spazsinbad
Navy Black Box Detector Joins in Deep Water Hunt for Missing Japanese F-35A
26 Apr 2019 Sam LaGrone

"The U.S. Navy is employing tools it used in the search for the missing Malaysian Airlines Flight 370 to help find a Japanese F-35A that crashed earlier this month, U.S. 7th Fleet announced on Thursday. The service is sending out a Navy salvage team with a commercial deep-sea submersible, unspecified unmanned underwater vehicles and a TPL-25 “black box detector” – a towed sensor that can locate emergency beacons up to 25,000 feet below the ocean’s surface.

The salvage team embarked on commercial diving support construction vessel DSCV Van Gogh on Thursday from Okinawa, Japan. The participation is the latest U.S. assistance to find the Japanese Self Defense fighter that went missing on April 9. The Japan Air Self-Defense Force identified the still-missing pilot of the F-35A as Maj. Akinori Hosomi….

...“The Kaimei [Japan Agency for Marine-Earth Science and Technology research vessel joins search] is equipped with echo-sounders, magnetometers and an unmanned submarine able to reach depths of 3,000m for seabed surveys,” reported Financial Times on Wednesday. “The crashed F-35 is thought to lie in deep water at 1,500m: well below the operating depth of a normal submarine.”

Some reports say Japan and U.S. officials are concerned that the technology within the F-35A could be seized and reverse-engineered by adversaries. However, U.S. defense officials told USNI News last week there were no indications Chinese or Russians were also searching for the missing F-35A...."

Photo: "The TPL-25 System used for locating emergency relocation pingers on downed Navy and commercial aircraft down to a maximum depth of 20,000 feet anywhere in the world. US Navy Image" https://news.usni.org/wp-content/upload ... 99-001.jpg


Source: https://news.usni.org/2019/04/26/navy-b ... nese-f-35a

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2019, 11:27
by Gamera
"Ah, I see you have the machine that goes 'ping'."

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 03:54
by krieger22
Funny time for making that quip, they just found it: https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Intern ... ed-US-says

NEW YORK -- The F-35A stealth fighter that crashed off the coast of Japan has been found, and recovery efforts are underway, a U.S. Air Force commander said Monday.

"The aircraft's been located. ... It's now in the recovery aspect," said Charles Brown, four-star general and commander of the Pacific Air Forces, in a briefing for reporters in New York.

Since the Japanese-built jet disappeared April 9, Japan time, the Japan Air Self-Defense Force and the U.S. military have poured resources into searching for its wreckage, which could expose sensitive American military technology secrets if retrieved by China or Russia.


The F-35, a fifth-generation fighter developed by American defense contractor Lockheed Martin, evades radar and is expected to play a crucial role in the defense strategies of the U.S. and its allies for decades to come. It "can track and destroy adversary cruise missiles today, and, in the future, can be equipped with a new or modified interceptor capable of shooting down adversary ballistic missiles in their boost phase," the U.S. Department of Defense said in its 2019 Missile Defense Review.

The Chinese and the Russians have been eager to acquire information on the tech behind the F-35. Wreckage from the crashed plane could give them access to study the radar-absorbing materials key to the aircraft's stealth features.

The U.S. is working very closely with the Japanese side in support of the recovery of the aircraft, Brown said.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 04:11
by popcorn
That's a relief!

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 06:14
by spazsinbad
Thanks for the text 'krieger22'.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 15:07
by lamoey
Seems it may be a litle too early to celebrate. The same article also states:

But later in the day, Colonel John Hutcheson, the director of public affairs at U.S. Forces Japan, contacted the Nikkei Asian Review and said "the aircraft has not been located at the bottom of the sea. The U.S. military is still working with the Japan Air Self-Defense Force to locate the wreckage."

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 18:19
by spazsinbad
I cannot see the article (just part of the first paragraph). Can someone post the ENTIRE article text please? Many thanks.

Thanks 'lamoey'.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 18:21
by lamoey
Crashed F-35A fighter jet located, US general says
Wreckage risked exposing military secrets if retrieved by China or Russia


ALEX FANG, Nikkei staff writer
APRIL 30, 2019 08:17 JST UPDATED ON APRIL 30, 2019 14:33 JST

NEW YORK -- A U.S. Air Force commander told reporters here Monday that the F-35A stealth fighter that crashed off the coast of Japan had been located, and that recovery efforts were underway.

"The aircraft's been located. ... It's now in the recovery aspect," said Charles Brown, four-star general and commander of the Pacific Air Forces, in a briefing for reporters in New York.

But later in the day, Colonel John Hutcheson, the director of public affairs at U.S. Forces Japan, contacted the Nikkei Asian Review and said "the aircraft has not been located at the bottom of the sea. The U.S. military is still working with the Japan Air Self-Defense Force to locate the wreckage."

Since the Japanese-built jet disappeared April 9, Japan time, the Japan Air Self-Defense Force and the U.S. military have poured resources into searching for its wreckage, which could expose sensitive American military technology secrets if retrieved by China or Russia.

The F-35, a fifth-generation fighter developed by American defense contractor Lockheed Martin, evades radar and is expected to play a crucial role in the defense strategies of the U.S. and its allies for decades to come. It "can track and destroy adversary cruise missiles today, and, in the future, can be equipped with a new or modified interceptor capable of shooting down adversary ballistic missiles in their boost phase," the U.S. Department of Defense said in its 2019 Missile Defense Review.

The Chinese and the Russians have been eager to acquire information on the tech behind the F-35. Wreckage from the crashed plane could give them access to study the radar-absorbing materials key to the aircraft's stealth features.

The U.S. is working very closely with the Japanese side in support of the recovery of the aircraft, Brown said.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2019, 04:26
by krieger22
https://this.kiji.is/498325857144898657 Seems like they found a part of the flight recorder. However, either it wasn't the one with the flight data.

Machine translation follows:

On the 7th, with regard to the accident that the latest sharp stealth fighter F35A of the Air Self-Defense Force Misawa base (Aomori prefecture) crashed in the Pacific Ocean off the prefecture on July 7, a part of the flight recorder (flight recording device) was It was discovered and revealed as being withdrawn. No memory has been found in which flight records etc. have been saved, and the pilot, Akira Hosomi 3rd grader (41), is still missing and continues searching.

 According to Iwaya, after a search on the 3rd, the flight recording device and a part of the rear window of the cockpit were found, and the deep sea search vessel "Van Gogh" dispatched by the United States was withdrawn. Mr. Iwaya said, "It's quite damaging."

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2019, 10:53
by spazsinbad
Iwaya: Recovered pieces may come from missing jet
07 May 2019 NHKworld

"Japanese Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya has revealed that officials may have found pieces of a missing Japanese Air Self-Defense Force F-35 fighter jet....

...Iwaya told reporters on Tuesday that what appear to be pieces of the cockpit and flight recorder were found on May 3 or later on the seabed near the supposed crash site.... Iwaya said officials are checking whether the pieces that were retrieved came from the missing plane. He added that the flight recorder's data storage unit has not been found. Without it, it will be difficult to determine what happened to the plane. The defense minister said the government will continue to search for the missing pilot and plane."

Source: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20190507_27/

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2019, 15:09
by Gamera
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... webtoo-l02
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... onews-soci
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... 22-yom-pol
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... 97-cnn-int
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/videonews ... 27-ann-pol
https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/201905 ... 61000.html
https://www.tokyo-np.co.jp/article/nati ... 00089.html

2019/05/07, Defense Minister Iwaya told reporters that, on and after 2019/05/03, Japanese science vessel Kaimei provided information to US military chartered salvage ship Van Gogh, and Van Gogh recovered items from ocean bottom.

Items were fragments from canopy, and from FDR [flight data recorder], but not the memory component of FDR.

Pilot still missing.

[IMO: was he telling the whole truth?]

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2019, 19:19
by spazsinbad
"...[IMO: was he telling the whole truth?]" I presume 'he' is the DefMin Iwaya? How can we know otherwise? Does it matter?

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 09 May 2019, 06:28
by spazsinbad
Japan Recovers Parts of Crashed F-35A‘s Flight Data Recorder
08 May 2019 Franz-Stefan Gady

"Part of the flight data recorder was recovered “on or after May 3,” according to Japan’s defense minister.

Japanese Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya said on 7 May that a search team has recovered parts of the flight data recorder of a Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF) fifth-generation Lockheed Martin Lightning II F-35A fighter jet that crashed off northern Japan almost a month ago.

Part of the flight data recorder was recovered “on or after May 3”, Iwaya said. “The Defense Ministry is studying (the parts), but at this point, the all-important memory (of the flight data recorder) has not been recovered.”

Iwaya also noted that the retrieved part of the flight data recorder was heavily damaged. As a result, it is unlikely to help determine the cause of the crash, which remains unknown. Notably, the exact discovery location is being kept secret for security reasons...."

Source: https://thediplomat.com/2019/05/japan-r ... -recorder/

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 09 May 2019, 23:37
by marsavian
US Ends Search for Japanese F-35 that Crashed in April

https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... april.html

TOKYO -- The U.S Navy said Thursday it has suspended its search for a Japanese air force F-35A stealth fighter that crashed off Japan's coast last month, after the allies scrambled to locate the aircraft to protect its military secrets.

The pilot is still missing, and Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya said Japan will continue its search. The Navy said in a statement that it was withdrawing after a salvage vehicle, CURV 21, found debris from the aircraft.

From April 9 to April 17, the U.S. search covered more than 5,000 square nautical miles (17,150 square kilometers) before deploying the CURV 21 remotely operated vehicle, which is capable of salvage operations at a depth of up to 20,000 feet (6,000 meters).

Iwaya told the upper house Diplomatic and Defense Affairs Committee that the U.S. salvage vehicle recovered parts of a flight data recorder, but the flight data is missing. A joint effort using sonar by the Japanese deep undersea vehicle Kaimei also located and recovered parts of a canopy and other equipment, he said.

Iwaya said the Kaimei has also withdrawn, but the surface and underwater search is continuing with the participation of Japanese Air Self-Defense Force vessels as well as a private salvage boat.

"We will continue our search and recovery for the pilot and the aircraft that are still missing, while doing our utmost to determine the cause," he said.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2019, 12:06
by Gamera
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... 7-jij-soci
https://www.jiji.com/jc/article?k=2019050901345&g=soc

2019/05/08, Japan side withdrew Kaimei, and US side withdrew Van Gogh.

Two JASDF-contracted civilian salvage ships arrive at crash area, and third civilian salvage ship will arrive.
Escorted by JMSDF Sugashima Class mine-sweeper MSC-689 JDS Aoshima.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2019, 11:55
by Gamera
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... onews-soci
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... 5-jij-soci
https://www.msn.com/ja-jp/news/national ... ar-AABuMOl

Friday, 2019/05/17:

JASDF Chief of Staff, General Marumo Yoshinari told reporters that accident F-35 position information remained in MADL, the data-sharing system linked to wingmen.

Combined with ground radar record, and three wingmen's interviews, to deduce accident cause, and assure safety, before decision to resume flights.

Recently recovered debris included landing gear tire.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2019, 14:56
by mixelflick
Something sounds fishy here...

The US and Japan haven't found most of the aircraft... so they're giving up? That's like losing your kids, looking for a few hours and giving up, calling it a day.

Makes no sense..

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2019, 15:49
by krieger22
mixelflick wrote:Something sounds fishy here...

The US and Japan haven't found most of the aircraft... so they're giving up? That's like losing your kids, looking for a few hours and giving up, calling it a day.

Makes no sense..


Sounds more like they have indeed gone from search to recovery.

Gamera wrote:Recently recovered debris included landing gear tire.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2019, 18:27
by steve2267
They seem to have found a debris field. But few, if any large pieces have been reportedly found. Unfortunately, this sounds like a high-speed flight into terrain. If somehow the pilot got the F-35 equivalent of the Microsoft Windows Blue Screen of Death... then at night, over ocean, possibly in less than ideal weather, trying to troubleshoot a sick airplane with only one crew, and keep the shiny side up (esp. if electrical issues or instrument issues are making both tasks more difficult), is a recipe for vertigo and CFIT.

Such a scenario seems to fit what little had dribbed and drabbed out, but is still purely conjecture. And AFAIK, such an avionic computer hardware / software meltdown should never occur. But bad things seem to happen when Murphy shows up with never on his arm.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2019, 18:36
by ricnunes
steve2267 wrote:Such a scenario seems to fit what little had dribbed and drabbed out, but is still purely conjecture. And AFAIK, such an avionic computer hardware / software meltdown should never occur. But bad things seem to happen when Murphy shows up with never on his arm.


That would be strange since the F-35 does have a backup display with a Horizontal Situation Indicator (HSI - artificial horizon) which also shows airspeed and altitude (and even heading) data. This backup display is located right below the main display and more or less between the pilot's legs.

This can be observed on the image below:
cockpit.jpg
Souirce: ainonline.com

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2019, 23:27
by Dragon029
The main cockpit display is also made up of 2 independent displays / display processors (plus the HMDS has its own display computer). It might maybe be possible that an ICP failure could cause all displays to stop operating normally, but I'd doubt it (that'd be creating a single point of failure that renders multiple other layers of redundancy useless).

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2019, 21:48
by steve2267
The only pieces of the puzzle that fit together are that apparently no large pieces have been found. The only events that I can think of that would result in the plane being in small pieces would be either a high speed impact, or one massive explosion. I've read nothing to suggest anything like an explosion occurred.

A possible explanation for a high speed impact -- or flight into the ocean surface at cruise speed, perhaps -- would be vertigo, or unusual attitudes that the pilot did not notice (or other really bad sh*t). Vertigo over a dark ocean at night or in bad weather could be one scenario. Or dealing with lots of other problems and not picking up on a descent into the ocean could be another. Complete (or really really) bad avionics collapse or malfunction could be a possibility, BUT everything I have read suggests this would be really really really rare if not simply impossible.

Nevertheless, some bad juju occurred. By all accounts the pilot was highly experienced. One more example of the risks involved in military aviation.

May the pilot R.I.P. Much respect to him and all that serve.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2019, 07:09
by krieger22
https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/201905 ... 01000.html

They found some more parts that could be from the wings or the engine.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2019, 09:15
by spazsinbad
From URL above Google Translate has turned into a shitshow for sure, now limit of characters to translate so here....
Crashed F35 fighters Discovering some of the engines and wings on the ocean floor
28 May 2019 NHW News Web

"Last month, about the crashed SDF's F35 fighter, Iwaya, the Minister of Defense, revealed that it had found and found parts of the engine and parts of the wing on the seabed near the site.

In the accident that the Air Self-Defense Force's latest stealth fighter F35 crashed off Aomori Prefecture on the 9th of last month, the area of ​​the site where the aircraft is considered to be sunk is 1,500 meters deep where the water depth is deepest, so far Although some are found, the search is difficult.

Iwaya, Minister of Defense, told reporters after the cabinet meeting, "The engine and the wings that were seen as part of it were newly withdrawn, but it was extremely damaged. "I would like to set the whole area as a priority area and continue to search for it."

On that basis, “The communication data of the F35's training together and the trajectory of the radar captured from the base are still left. "I have not yet found an important flight recorder itself to investigate the cause, but showed the idea to advance the cause investigation.""

Source: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/201905 ... 01000.html

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2019, 13:55
by mixelflick
Truly sad and I hope they recover the pilots body, so the family can at least have some closure.

That said, the news wires report that Japan will order another 105, bringing the total up to around 150. That's a respectable number, and it wouldn't surprise me if they buy even more. Poland too, looks like they're going F-35. Throw in Malaysia and a few other new countries, and LM has to really be happy with the orders of record. Turkey hurts because they were to buy 200, but not delivering it in the face of the S-400 is the right thing to do.

Crash sounds like spatial disorientation, but nobody will know for sure until the accident findings are made public. An F-4 pilot told me once that aviation was a dangerous business, and you had to be prepared to lose at least 1 friend a year. This was in the mid 80's. I sincerely hope its gotten better since then...

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2019, 16:19
by blindpilot
mixelflick wrote:Truly sad and I hope they recover the pilots body, so the family can at least have some closure.
... An F-4 pilot told me once that aviation was a dangerous business, and you had to be prepared to lose at least 1 friend a year. This was in the mid 80's. I sincerely hope its gotten better since then...


My academy roommate was killed in an F-4 training accident in waters in that area. Every one has a story. It's a business with real risk. That's also why purchase numbers include expected "attrition" replacements. "Here's a toast ...

BP

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2019, 15:51
by Gamera
Just for comparison, reminds me of: on Thursday, 13 March 1958, a JASDF F-86F crashed into sea, near Shizuoka Prefecture.
Wreck and pilot weren't recovered.
For funeral, hairs from his hat, and part of caecum kept after surgery, were buried or cremated.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2019, 14:08
by mixelflick
Gamera wrote:Just for comparison, reminds me of: on Thursday, 13 March 1958, a JASDF F-86F crashed into sea, near Shizuoka Prefecture.
Wreck and pilot weren't recovered.
For funeral, hairs from his hat, and part of caecum kept after surgery, were buried or cremated.


God that's terrible.

Hopefully more nations see the wisdom in something like the Auto Ground Collision Avoidance System. Dunno if I have the name right, but takes over and levels the plane until the pilot regains consciousness. Hard to believe nobody thought of this before, or maybe the tech wasn't there.

Whatever the case, it's an immediate return on investment and well worth it. Saves lives, saves aircraft. Around me, the 104th lost an F-15 pilot a ways back given some calamity that rendered him unconscious/unable to control his jet. I often wonder if something like this could have saved him.

RIP "Moose"...

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2019, 05:32
by spazsinbad
Japan preparing to resume F-35 flights
04 Jun 2019 NHKworld

"NHK has learned that the Defense Ministry plans to end a major search operation for an F-35 fighter jet that crashed off northern Japan, and prepare to resume flights of the same model. The missing aircraft, which was procured from the United States, went down in waters off Aomori Prefecture in early April. Only pieces of the engine and main wing have been discovered so far. The pilot is still missing.

Nearly two months after the incident, ministry officials plan to call off the search for the plane's flight recorder and other key parts, which could offer a clue to what caused the incident. But they will continue a scaled-down search operation, as the aircraft contains highly-classified technologies.

The ministry officials suspect that the pilot lost his equilibrium while flying the jet, according to their analysis of communications data from other F-35 fighters and radar data from their base.

The ministry plans to take steps to prevent a recurrence, such as beefing up pilot training on the ground, and will try to ensure the safety of its remaining fleet of 12 F-35 stealth combat jets before resuming flights."

Source: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20190604_02/

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2019, 05:53
by Corsair1963
Pilot Error?

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2019, 06:17
by spazsinbad
I'll bet more training in simulator at night for new pilots to get used to the HMDS & to experience deliberate SD recovery.

An SD overview Orientation & disorientation in aviation 2013: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 48-2-2.pdf (0.8Mb)
An overview of spatial disorientation as a factor in aviation accidents and incidents
2007 Dr David G. Newman

"...Types of spatial disorientation
Three basic types of SD have been described, for the purposes of classification. These types are Type I (unrecognized), Type II (recognised) and Type III (incapacitating).

Type I (unrecognized)
In this form of disorientation, the pilot is unaware that they are disoriented or that they have lost situational awareness. The pilot, unaware of the problem, continues to fly the aircraft as normal. This is particularly dangerous, as the pilot will not take any appropriate corrective action, since they do not perceive that there is in fact a problem. The fully functioning aircraft is then flown into the ground, with often fatal results. This form of SD is clearly dangerous, and accounts for the majority of SD accidents and fatalities (Braithwaite et al., 1998b).

Type II (recognized)
Type II SD is more common than Type I. In this form of disorientation, the pilot becomes aware that there is a problem. While the pilot may or may not be aware that the problem is SD, in this form of disorientation they are aware that something is not quite right, that their sensory system is giving information that does not agree with the information available from the instruments, or that things just don’t add up. The conflict between their own perceptions and that given to them by the instruments or the outside visual world alerts them to a problem, which they are then in a position to deal with. If this is successfully dealt with, a SD accident does not tend to result. The pilot may then have received a valuable lesson on SD and how to recover from it.

Type III (incapacitating)
In Type III SD, the pilot experiences the most extreme form of disorientation stress. The pilot may be aware of the disorientation, but is mentally and physically overwhelmed to the point where they are unable to successfully recover from the situation. They may freeze at the controls, or make control inputs that tend to exacerbate the situation rather than effect recovery from it. The pilot may fight the aircraft all the way to ground impact, never once achieving controlled flight. Such forms of disorientation are a result of breakdowns in the normal cognitive processes, possibly due to the overwhelming nature of the situation, especially if other factors such as fatigue and high workload are also present....

CONCLUSION
Spatial disorientation (SD) is always a risk to pilots. It is a function of the inherent operating limitations of the normal human orientation systems in the three-dimensional, complex motion environment of flight. It can happen to any normal pilot at any time. There are many different illusions and disorientating phenomena that pilots may experience, depending on the nature of their operations and the phase of flight. There are many steps that can be taken by pilots to minimise their risk of experiencing SD on a given flight, many of which involve pre-flight planning and adequate preparation. Being aware of the risk of SD is one of the key elements in preventing a SD accident."

Source: https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/29971/b20070063.pdf (0.4Mb)

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2019, 11:24
by Gamera
Japan to Keep Monitoring F-35 Crash Site to 'Protect Classified Info'
2019/06/04 - Sputnik International

Read: https://sputniknews.com/asia/2019060410 ... -35-plane/

Japan ends search for crashed F-35 fighter jet
2019/06/04 - Times of India
Read: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 643823.cms

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2019, 23:17
by count_to_10
Corsair1963 wrote:Pilot Error?

Seems like a case of controlled flight into terrain, but you have to wonder if the cause wasn’t medical in some way.
Not much you can do about a pilot suddenly having a stroke in the cockpit or the like.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2019, 11:07
by spazsinbad
This recovery is totally different but similar in water depth etc. However the C-2 ditched - so a low speed water impact. Mentioned here to illustrate what MAY be possible if LARGE pieces of the F-35A wreckage can be found - guessing though.

Navy Recovers C-2A from Fatal 2017 Crash from 3 Miles Underwater 05 Jun 2018 Sam LaGrone
https://news.usni.org/2019/06/05/navy-r ... underwater

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2019, 18:25
by markithere
I suggest having them bring along a stand alone gps/attitude indicator/ altimeter device as back up. We had a few for our Mooney. Completely independent from the Mooney.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2019, 19:01
by spazsinbad
There is a back up ATTITUDE INDICATOR in the F-35 (I think it has been pointed out already). See previous page: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=55255&p=419952&hilit=backup#p419952 IF the pilot is DISORIENTED catastrophically as pointed out earlier - how will more instruments help? As I mentioned training is important along with knowledge about disorientation and how to deal with it. I think the pilot had a medical problem exacerbated by SD or vice versa. TYPE III (incapacitating): viewtopic.php?f=22&t=55255&p=420943&hilit=Type+III#p420943

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2019, 19:04
by SpudmanWP
Would AGCAS have helped?

Does it work over water?

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2019, 03:55
by spazsinbad
Crashed aircraft F35A fighter, found part of the pilot's body Iwaya Defense Minister
07 Jun 2019 Abema Times

"Crashed aircraft F35A fighter, discovers part of the pilot's body

Regarding the Air Self Defense Force's F35A fighter jet crashed off Aomori Prefecture in April, Defense Minister Iwaya announced that it had found part of the missing pilot's body.

The Minister of Defense Iwaya has declared that he has found something that seems to be a part of the pilot's body from the sea area where the parts of the F35A were scattered, and has determined that he has died.

The Self Defense Force has been searching in the surrounding sea area for the crash of the latest stealth fighter F35A. So far I have found some of the engines and wings but no flight recorder. The search for the aircraft is virtually discontinued."

Source: https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... abema-soci GOOGLE TRANSLATE: https://www.google.com/search?q=google+ ... ss&ie=&oe=

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2019, 04:01
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Now his family can have closure. RIP.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2019, 08:14
by Gamera
https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20 ... na/011000c

Missing Japanese F-35A pilot's death confirmed by Ministry of Defense

2019/06/07

At a June 7 press conference held after a Cabinet meeting, Iwaya confirmed that Maj. Hosomi had died.
He said that body parts discovered among the aircraft's dispersed wreckage were confirmed to be Maj. Hosomi's remains on June 5.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 08:54
by krieger22
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan ... ce=twitter

The JASDF has officially stated that spatial disorientation was the likely cause of the crash.

"We believe it highly likely the pilot was suffering from vertigo or spatial disorientation and wasn't aware of his condition," Defence Minister Takeshi Iwaya told a briefing.

"It can affect any pilot regardless of their experience."

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 10:46
by spazsinbad
More info from the above source:
"“We believe it highly likely the pilot was suffering from vertigo or spatial disorientation and wasn’t aware of his condition,” Defence Minister Takeshi Iwaya told a briefing. “It can affect any pilot regardless of their experience.”...

...Japan, Iwaya said, would increase vertigo training for its pilots, [spatial disorientation SD training] check its remaining F-35s and meet residents living near the base from which they operate, in Misawa, Aomori prefecture, before restarting flights.

The air force has yet to recover any intact data from the $126 million aircraft’s flight data recorder to back its assessment, which is based on data and communication received by ground controllers and interviews with other pilots.

The pilot, who had only 60 hours flying time in the F-35, gave no indication he was in trouble and did not try to avoid a collision despite advanced instrumentation and a ground proximity warning system that should have alerted him to pull up. [probably descending too fast at that stage] The air force did not find any indication he had attempted to eject...." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japa ... SKCN1TB0BM

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 11:55
by Dragon029
The Japanese Ministry of Defense have posted their official report on the crash:

https://www.mod.go.jp/asdf/news/houdou/H31/20190610.pdf

I'm attaching two documents; the first is a raw Google translation of the report's text (created using Google Translate's 'translate document' function):
download/file.php?id=30637

The second document is my semi-manual English interpretation of the report - I do not speak / read Japanese, but what I've done is used Google translate on paragraphs, individual sentences, phrases and even words or characters to get a better understanding of what the actual meaning is behind the Japanese text, then I've re-written it in English as closely as possible while maintaining half-decent grammar and edited it back into the original PDF, including with the graphics on the last 2 pages:
download/file.php?id=30639

In short, the F-35A had just killed 2 targets during air-to-air training and had radioed "21 (his aircraft code), 2 kills". A US military aircraft (type not disclosed) was flying nearby at 37,000ft however, so air traffic control orders the F-35A to descend to increase separation. The pilot replies with "Yes. Roger that" but is now in a slight left turn and has a serious descent rate (around 820ft/s). About 20 seconds later, ground control asks him to further separate by performing a left turn, to which the pilot changes heading by about 100 degrees and replies calmly with a "Yes, Knock it off". At this point he's at about 15,500ft and still descending. For the next 15 seconds the jet is descending at about 1000ft/s (factoring in his horizontal velocity he would have been travelling at near Mach 1), up until radar / data link contact is lost at <1000ft from the surface and the plane hits the water moments later.

Because the pilot was awake and replied with "Yes, knock it off" in a calm manner after that left turn (and didn't communicate anything else), the Japanese MoD believes that it was spatial disorientation and not G-LOC or a problem with the jet's engine, controls or electrical systems in general. That said, they will be educating their pilots on G-LOC and performing special inspections on the jets just in case (a false instrument reading might possibly resulted in the spatial disorientation).

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 12:32
by spazsinbad
I made a text post with graphic and now it has disappeared? Now I'll just post GIF graphic made from 'Dragon029' PDF....

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 13:39
by prof.566
Hurrah for AGCAS (on any type of plane)

When you start losing altitude during an "engaged" turn, natural refelxes (pull the stick, push engine) are wrong. despite whatever instruction, if you are furthermore losing consciousness of your environment etc....

Thoughts to the unit and the family

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 14:42
by outlaw162
Looking at some representative pictures of the HMDS display from the Avionics forum, a couple of questions come to mind concerning the type of confusion with displays that can lead to misinterpretation.

In the first pic, how is it possible for the 'zero pitch line' (commonly called the horizon line, though incorrectly so) to overlay the terrain well below the zero pitch line as it passes through what appears to be a hill, with in fact the FPV symbol still on the 'zero pitch line' at the base of the hill? Also in the pic, the negative pitch line tabs that point to the zero pitch line are on the outboard ends of the lines themselves.

In the second schematic from the Norwegian discussion, the negative pitch line tabs are on the inboard ends of the lines, while the positive pitch line tabs are outboard. Never seen that before.

What would this guy have been looking at in that steep descent, assuming the display was functioning properly?

What would have been his best indication of "up"?

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 15:31
by Dragon029
The first pic would either be photoshopped (by Rockwell Collins, etc for marketing material) or shows some early / non-standard version of the helmet symbology in a simulator where the pitch ladder and other data follows the helmet.

What would this guy have been looking at in that steep descent, assuming the display was functioning properly?

What would have been his best indication of "up"?


This is what his HMDS would have shown if he was looking forward:
Image

This is what his HMDS would have shown if he was looking elsewhere:
Image

This video from 2:54 shows a depiction of what the GCAS system would have shown as he was getting close to hitting the ocean, though the real thing likely looks slightly different (the rest of the HMDS symbology doesn't match the above images for example):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkBA9cCAtTY


The Japanese report also states that there was no noticeable recovery attempt, so it's unclear whether (manual) GCAS worked properly, or was somehow disabled, or if the pilot saw it but chose not to act due to spatial disorientation and a lack of trust in his equipment.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 16:38
by outlaw162
That first picture looking out the front seems a little flaky.

You've got a zero pitch line apparently moving up with attitude, not inertially fixed,

you've got an "X" thru the FPV apparently indicating the FPV not in the FOV....where is it?

One would think the looking forward display would be centered on either the attitude symbol or the FPV (like in the video at -70 degrees FP).

And the 'looking elsewhere' view....no room for attitude confusion there. :shock:

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 17:24
by SpudmanWP
Here is a detailed PDF on the F-35 AGCAS testing that just came out on June 7th, 2019.

I put it over on the Program Docs page.
viewtopic.php?p=421517#p421517

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 18:09
by spazsinbad
As the good 'SWP' has mentioned - graphic from said PDF: download/file.php?id=30645 (5Mb)

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 18:12
by Gamera
I'll gawk at the Japanese documents later.

WRT HUD symbology, it's been aeons (maybe 20 years) since I (as a civilian chickenhawk, but not peacenik) last played a combat flight sim, so I'm merely familiar with the basic CCIP (for iron bombs), gun/missile reticle, nose reticle, pitch ladder, waterline, &c.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 21:32
by outlaw162
That -3 degree FPA in the AGCAS graphic converging to the big "X" for auto-recovery is equivalent to the FPA of an airliner (or fighter or anything) on a normal ILS. Very conservative system it appears.

It also appears this guy was seeing quite a bit more extreme flight path display than that, both in pitch and roll. "Fly-up, fly-up" is nice if you can determine which way is up. If it was vestibular and not a display misinterpretation, that's where a fool-proof display is necessary....if there is such a thing.

Re: JASDF F-35A missing

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 03:18
by spazsinbad
outlaw162 wrote:Looking at some representative pictures of the HMDS display from the Avionics forum, a couple of questions come to mind concerning the type of confusion with displays that can lead to misinterpretation.

In the first pic, how is it possible for the 'zero pitch line' (commonly called the horizon line, though incorrectly so) to overlay the terrain well below the zero pitch line as it passes through what appears to be a hill, with in fact the FPV symbol still on the 'zero pitch line' at the base of the hill? Also in the pic, the negative pitch line tabs that point to the zero pitch line are on the outboard ends of the lines themselves.

In the second schematic from the Norwegian discussion, the negative pitch line tabs are on the inboard ends of the lines, while the positive pitch line tabs are outboard. Never seen that before.

What would this guy have been looking at in that steep descent, assuming the display was functioning properly?

What would have been his best indication of "up"?

After awhile it gets to be doubledutch for me because I have not seen these things in use in practice myself but this may be helpful: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=234221&hilit=color#p234221
"...4.1.1.1. Helmet Mounted Display Virtual Heads-Up Display (HMD v-HUD). Note that under some flight regimes, the horizon line and pitch ladder collides (coexists) with the airspeed, altitude and heading symbology, causing potential readability issues;...: http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/m ... -35AV3.pdf (0.5Mb) URL noworkee - PDF now attached - see page 26 for instrument flying stuff - NOPE computer says 'update file is EMPTY' - tried uploading a GIF of quote to NOPE so go to the thread URL for full text

LOTS to read about HMDS: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=221812&hilit=color#p221812

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 15:31
by Gamera
For concise summary, I read Japanese news articles.
Note: my comments in square brackets.

https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... 4-mai-soci
https://www.jiji.com/jc/graphics?p=ve_s ... 0j-04-w360
https://mainichi.jp/articles/20190610/k ... 40/096000c

2019/06/10:
Accident F-35 trained with three other fighters.

19:25, altitude 9,600 m, when first round of training ended, pilot said "21 [callsign], two kills."
[He shot down two wingmen, or his two wingmen allowed themselves to be shot down by him.]

After one minute, ground control instructed him to descend, to avoid US military aircraft at 11,300 m, flying to Kadena AB, Okinawa Prefecture.
From altitude 9,600 m, he began to descend, and said "Hai [yes], ryoukai [understood]".

After 20 seconds, he descended 4,900 m [vertical distance], to altitude 4,700 m.
Very fast dive, above 900 km/h, and pilot probably had spatial disorientation.

19:26:15, ground control instructed him to turn left, and his final reply was "Hai, knock it off [stop training]."
This was after he turned left, and G-LOC chance was low.

After 15 seconds, he additional descended 4,400 m [vertical distance], above 1,100 km/h.

19:26:30, altitude 300 m, he disappeared from radars.
At blunt angle, he flew into ocean.

His voice was calm, did not evasive manoeuvre, and did not eject.
If mechanical trouble, chance was high that aircraft would decelerate while descending, but he descended at inappropriate supersonic speed.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 16:33
by outlaw162
From the F-35A ops procedures:
4.1.2. The primary unusual attitude reference is the HMD v-HUD. Do not use the HMD or SFD to recover from an unusual attitude or when executing lost wingman procedures except when no other attitude reference is available."


Is the v-HUD continually displayed in the HMD or is there is some pilot switching required to go from the HMD to HMD v-HUD?

Is it only displayed looking forward?

His voice was calm
....
he flew into ocean


So what cues the pilot to 'transition' to the v-HUD? Is it considered a PFR?

I think I'd be tempted to momentarily reference the PFR or SFD quite a bit a night.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 17:42
by Gums
Salute!

I m not surprised at using the V-HUD for a recovery, but after enduring one or two or... , my not so humble opinion is that the steam gauge attitude indicator rules! In any case, the V-HUD is better than the normal helmet display because it is referenced to your feet and seat!

Even the later HUD displays using vee-shaped pitch lines with little feet on the ends are not as intuitive as "blue side up, black down". On one bad move I made years ago, I was looking over shoulder and unintentionally entered a cloud. I had managed to crank in a healthy roll command ( Viper Block 15) and quickly looking forward helped the inner ear, NOT, heh eh heh. HUD was almost useless but using the basic attitude indicator was a piece of cake, and good thing as I was in the mountains and terrain clearance was not what you would like. You know - roll and then pull.

Gums opines...

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 18:54
by outlaw162
On airliners with HUDs, PFRs were always head-down steam/MFD type....of course it's more straight forward when it comes to the HUD unusual attitude display in an airliner (or C-17/KC-46) type aircraft. You set pitch and roll thresholds, beyond which exceeding them results in automatic switching to the unusual attitude recovery display, the symbology specifically directed at recovery, though at times that switch-over itself could be disorienting.

With fighters there are normal occasions to fly thru any and every attitude so there's really no such thing as an 'unusual' attitude....only an unexpected or worse, undetermined one. I didn't care for that narrow little Block 10 HUD for flying instruments either....and that HMDS just looks claustrophobic and at times even overly informative.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 22:24
by spazsinbad
F-35A USAF Flight Procedures afi11-2f-35av3(12) :doh: 07 Jun 2012 :applause: I can post stuff :shock: I can post! 8)

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 23:33
by spazsinbad
Somewhere there is multi-page PDF about SPATIAL DISORIENTATION Explained PDF - this forum - gotta find it. Meanwhile:

Example from: LIES My Cilia Told Me - A Spatial Disorientation Primer Naval Aviation News NAN_vol94_no4_v16_lr
http://nanarchive.omnitecinc.com/20102012.aspx (probably not available here now - will be in the aforementioned PDF)

The OLD forum SD PDF is more complex than I thought with other stuff - & LESS SD - so I'll make anotherie soonish like.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 00:20
by marauder2048
outlaw162 wrote:On airliners with HUDs, PFRs were always head-down steam/MFD type....of course it's more straight forward when it comes to the HUD unusual attitude display in an airliner (or C-17/KC-46) type aircraft. You set pitch and roll thresholds, beyond which exceeding them results in automatic switching to the unusual attitude recovery display, the symbology specifically directed at recovery, though at times that switch-over itself could be disorienting.

With fighters there are normal occasions to fly thru any and every attitude so there's really no such thing as an 'unusual' attitude....only an unexpected or worse, undetermined one. I didn't care for that narrow little Block 10 HUD for flying instruments either....and that HMDS just looks claustrophobic and at times even overly informative.



So where was the incident pilot in your claimed normal distribution of pilot ability?
By your theory, he should have been nigh-invulnerable to spatial disorientation.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 00:47
by outlaw162
Right now he is in the distribution of pilots in the Pacific Ocean, a fairly large sample size, converging on a normal distribution, regardless of which variable or set of variables you pick.

What exactly is it that you do in aviation?

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 01:23
by spazsinbad
marauder2048 wrote:
outlaw162 wrote:On airliners with HUDs, PFRs were always head-down steam/MFD type....of course it's more straight forward when it comes to the HUD unusual attitude display in an airliner (or C-17/KC-46) type aircraft. You set pitch and roll thresholds, beyond which exceeding them results in automatic switching to the unusual attitude recovery display, the symbology specifically directed at recovery, though at times that switch-over itself could be disorienting.

With fighters there are normal occasions to fly thru any and every attitude so there's really no such thing as an 'unusual' attitude....only an unexpected or worse, undetermined one. I didn't care for that narrow little Block 10 HUD for flying instruments either....and that HMDS just looks claustrophobic and at times even overly informative.


So where was the incident pilot in your claimed normal distribution of pilot ability?
By your theory, he should have been nigh-invulnerable to spatial disorientation.

"We believe it highly likely the pilot was suffering from vertigo or spatial disorientation and wasn't aware of his condition," Defence Minister Takeshi Iwaya told a briefing. "It can affect any pilot regardless of their experience."
[previous page 'krieger22' : http://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan ... ce=twitter

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 02:13
by marauder2048
outlaw162 wrote:What exactly is it that you do in aviation?


I mainly brag about my math SAT score.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 06:36
by spazsinbad
75 pages of Spatial Disorientation BADness PDF is attached. Other stuff such as HYPOXIA, G-LOC & Pilot Error not included.
Orientation and disorientation in aviation [this pdf is in the attachment below]
John Richard Rollin Stott 2013

“...Conclusions
Much of the basic physiological science of relevance to disorientation in aircraft has been elucidated many decades ago, some even before the advent of powered flight. The practical problem remains as to how the subject should be taught and demonstrated to each successive generation of pilots to forewarn them and maintain their awareness of the potential dangers of disorientation in flight.”

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 48-2-2.pdf (0.75Mb)

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 17:47
by Gums
Salute!

I am not all that supportive of the above definition of "leans". Maybe Outlaw, Spaz and others can help here.

My experience was that I tilted, or "leaned" my head to get the little gyros and hairs in the ear to agree with what my attitude indicator showed, or just to stay close on the wing during night weather. I swear, many a night in weather I was sure we had done a barrel roll or two. The worst time was when a really smooth lead would be in a turn, then suddently roll out. For a while you were sure that you were turning, but a glance at the ADI said you were wings level. Hence, when a lead, I always called our turns rolling in and rolling out. When solo, the "leans" usually went away after a few moments, especially if you did any turns.

Gums recalls....

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 17:59
by quicksilver
Gums wrote:Salute!

I am not all that supportive of the above definition of "leans". Maybe Outlaw, Spaz and others can help here.

My experience was that I tilted, or "leaned" my head to get the little gyros and hairs in the ear to agree with what my attitude indicator showed, or just to stay close on the wing during night weather. I swear, many a night in weather I was sure we had done a barrel roll or two. The worst time was when a really smooth lead would be in a turn, then suddently roll out. For a while you were sure that you were turning, but a glance at the ADI said you were wings level. Hence, when a lead, I always called our turns rolling in and rolling out. When solo, the "leans" usually went away after a few moments, especially if you did any turns.

Gums recalls....


The description in the doc was a little dense; I had to read it a couple times...

Most memorable case for me at night IMC flying in parade as wingy. After thinking lead had been in a LH 30 degree aob turn for about 20 minutes, I glanced at the HUD and noted that we were actually straight and level... :shock:

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 22:03
by spazsinbad
Not sure about what is required however here is another 'explanation' of the LEANS. There is a page with a quote from A-4 NATOPS about changing radio frequencies. Due to cramped cockpit often the radio changing required twisting and looking to the right and down - then of course doing reverse. NATOPS warns: on PAGE SIX of the SD PDF "“Do not switch the radio or IFF frequency codes below 2,500 feet at night or instrument conditions except for urgent military necessity. If this necessity arises, the aircraft should be in stabilized, level flight before changing frequencies or codes.” Even then one had to be careful about doing the twisting and head moving slowly (not quickly abruptly). YIKES! There I am first downwind at night at 1,000 feet required to change radio frequencies from CCA/LSO back to area radar (IIRC but perhaps NOT for the reason explained). That event is getting too far in the past these days. :? GOOD descriptions by others above though. 8)
Don’t believe your ears
05 Jan 2018 Staff Writers

"...Somatogravic illusions
There are three versions of the somatogravic illusion. Both involve the body’s inability to distinguish pitch changes from acceleration.
1. The leans
This common illusion is a false sensation of roll. It gets its name because pilots lean to one side in order to cancel out the false sensation. Leaning your body is the right way to counter the leans; rolling your aircraft is the wrong response. The leans often happen when a pilot looks down at a map, radio or instruments, and the aircraft goes into a gentle, banked turn that is too slow for the vestibular system to detect. Typically, the pilot looks up, and corrects the bank. But because this correction is fast enough to be felt by the inner ear, visual and vestibular information get out of sync and the leans occur. This illusion can occur in good visual flight conditions.

...Myths, busted
Because spatial disorientation is a result of human anatomy, it follows that no human is immune to it. It is a maxim of aviation medicine that spatial disorientation is a normal human reaction to an unnatural situation.

A false and dangerous idea about spatial disorientation is that it can always be felt. Not so. The graveyard spiral can occur without being detectable to the inner ear. In their 2004 magnum opus on sensory illusions, researchers Bill Ercoline and Fred Previc write:

‘ … all too many pilots have gone to their death never feeling or suspecting that anything was amiss with their aircraft’s altitude or trajectory’.


The only advantage skill and experience have when it comes to spatial disorientation is that they may (but do not necessarily) help in recognising the phenomenon. They do not stop the effects. After a session in the disorientation-inducing Barany chair at the RAAF Institute of Aviation Medicine, Qantas pilot Richard Champion de Crespigny summed up the value of experience in one sentence. ‘I have about 16,000 hours,’ he said, ‘and none of it was any use to me in preventing this condition.’..." [I'll add this web page to the next version of the SD PDF]

Source: https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2 ... ur-ears-2/

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 22:30
by outlaw162
After the centrifuge runs, everyone was offered a ride in the spinning 'somo' chair. It was voluntary and a lot of folks turned it down.

Compared to the 'fuge, I thought it was almost enjoyable. Burp. :D

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 22:36
by spazsinbad
One may note how ballet dancers spin - always a quick turn of the head to the front every time whilst body follows later.

IF one can see the horizon that always helps hence my insistence that HMDS is great for carrier landings - for horizon viz. Then of course there are other issues that are highlighted (but being solved by OLED in Gen III+ HMDS) we may gather.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 22:41
by Gums
Salute!

Thanks for more, Spaz, but that ain't what I call the "leans". "leans" happen over a period of a minute or more when your gyros and rate sensors do not reflect actual attitude and gee. So you tilt your head so they agree.

A good example is rolling into a turn and then holding the bank and altitude for a full turn. After 30 seconds or so your ear sensors "align". Meanwhile, you "lean" to make actual attitude and gee agree with what your own strapdown inertial referenceis telling you ( no batteries required, heh heh, and standard issue from God). The problem happens when you roll out and have to re-cage your gyros.

As far as changing radios and such, if I was saturated I would tell ground control I am staying on this freq and standby. Old fashioned training procedures for the single seaters, but we had the "blindfold cockpit check" so we could reach out and find the radio knob, then rotate a click at a time to the new freq..IFF changes were a different breed of cat.

Upfront control displays and switches made a helluva difference in the 80's and 90's.

Gums sends...

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 22:48
by spazsinbad
Blind cockpit checks are nice IF the controls stay in the same place. BUT BEWARE when the bleeding switch panels on the right side (and even some on the left side sometimes) are removed or changed about or both because CONFUCIUS reigns.

It seems 'the leans' can mean many things. As a general term it works whilst medicos insist on defining everything I guess.

Yes, delaying radio changes was common because of reasons 'Gums' gives. After rampstrike I definitely had to change freq.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2019, 13:59
by mixelflick
I realize there's a lot more to this, but avoiding spatial disorientation can be done by relying on instruments/the artificial horizon, can it not?

The condition isn't unknown, so why do pilots continue to fall victim to it?? Pilots on average are very disciplined people. Rationale, logical etc.. This spatial disorientation must be some powerful stuff given so many have died. Like JFK Jr.. Was spatially disoriented, but had an auto-pilot button right there that would have saved them.

Easier said than done, I'm sure but the phenomenon is unusual looking at it from the outside in..

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2019, 14:32
by marsavian
Is it just a higher risk when external visibility is poor and you have to fly by your displays and instruments ? Maybe requires more from the pilot when he can't visibly see what is happening to his plane in the sky. This is why GCAS is needed to be rolled out asap as a fail-safe especially as night missions will be an important part of F-35 operations.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2019, 14:43
by spazsinbad
'mixelflick': You probably have not read all the material - or - understood it if you have read it all. On this thread I have highlighted how EVERY PILOT - even in daylight - can suffer SD Spatial Disorientation. Yes when flying in instrument conditions ONLY the instruments can be believed NOT the pilot erroneous sensory input. SHIRLEY this has been made clear. In DAYLIGHT when the horizon is visible one may counteract SD by looking at the horizon. A way to help counter sea sickness is to go on deck to be able to view the horizon (perhaps not possible in a storm etc.).

'mixelflick' said: "...The condition isn't unknown, so why do pilots continue to fall victim to it??…" Firstly pilots are not victims. Pilots fly aircraft in unusual conditions of all kinds especially when in military jets. Knowledge of SD is the first step in dealing with it. At some time it is clear all pilots will encounter SD of some kind. However they have to recognise it. This can be difficult as is explained in the material. Always referencing the horizon - be it artificial or the real one - CAN be the best way to deal with SD. This is easier said than done if the pilot does not recognise the SD as perhaps the example of the POSSIBLE cause of the Japanese dive into the sea.

Read how an S2E/G pilot pushed the controls forward to fly into the sea after a night bolter (his first). Why did he do this. He was suffering from SD when looking at the engine gauges and not the AI IIRC. Read from page 16 in the 75 page PDF: Dark night takeoffs and the “false climb” illusion the quote below is from page 24 then read the conclusion of the second accident enquiry on page 26.
"...The 2nd inquiry explored pilot disorientation and concluded that the pilot of 853 possibly suffered from disorientation due to the acceleration off the ship [I think he means 'aircraft' here - not ship] under full power inducing a sensation of the aircraft pitching up. Barry Bromfield and other crew members of 853 told me that Barry had been calling to ‘get the nose up’ or words to that effect before they hit the water. If the pilot’s instrument scan wasn’t ideal he would have pushed the nose of the aircraft down to respond to his perception of the aircraft pitching up. I also recall that this was the first bolter 853’s pilot had experienced. I think this inquiry concluded disorientation as the most likely cause...."


'mixelflick' said: "...This spatial disorientation must be some powerful stuff given so many have died...." YES it is whilst depending upon circumstances SD can be difficult to correct in the time/space available when flying. Pointing any miljet towards the ground (even if engine at idle etc.) means VERY QUICKLY arrival is guaranteed, this fact is demonstrated to new jet pilots dramatically in various ways early in their jet flight training. I have given this example before elsewhere.

The VAMPIRE had an AI that would precess / undergo precession when accelerating from zero to flight speed of some 100 KIAS approx. When in flight the precession was negligible so the AI could be relied upon then. CATCH 22: when taking off at night straight after wheels off the runway one had to fly roughly some five/ten degrees to the left with a slightly higher nose up attitude than usual. IF this was not done at RAAF Pearce (RAAF basic jet training airfield) when taking off on R/W 36 one would end up in a smoking black hole in the hills to the right of the runway some distance ahead. This FACT was demonstrated time and again to nuggets. However one RAN nugget did this on first night solo - a very real thing to die.

Why tell this story? There may be times perhaps when the AI / artificial horizon does not tell the truth in VERY OLD aircraft however in modern aircraft this is not the case. The AI does tell the truth (whilst IF NOT you are doomed).

Another story. A new civilian prop pilot sillily flew into IMC without an instrument rating at low level, attempting to get over a flat tableland near NAS Nowra with very deep valleys otherwise. He was on the radio advising everyone who could listen that he was feeling some G and every now and then seeing a valley floor below. It was thought he was doing loops in a valley in IMC. Eventually he got out OK with lots of radio advice. One of the lucky ones.

Imagine being catapulted at night suffering from SD immediately (one of my experiences of SD). Even though I was flying on the ABBAJABBA AI which I knew could be relied upon my 'world' was just in turmoil. This had come about because (I think) I could not not NOT view/unview a single bright fishing boat light ahead of the ship. When things were just black for a night catapult then I did not experience SD. In any event I flew UP Straight telling the controller I was not going to obey directions until 'my world' was right again. CO confirmed at the time listening on radio this was the correct action.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2019, 17:46
by Gums
Salute!

Thanks, Spaz.....

And to all..... to get my wings I flew the T-33, then I flew it in ADC from 1965 - 67 . It had the J-8 attitude indicator, which was self-contained and used some kinda plumb bob or such to "erect" ( don't get excited, folks). If you flew in a coordinated turn for a long time, the damned thing would finally show wings level and the turn needle was your only big savior, besides the fact that your heading was changing.

Image


Note no blue sky or black dirt !! If level you could pull the "cage" knob and reset/erect the thing. In our ADC training they taught us to use "bar width" pitch corrections on an ILS or GCA. The main symbols were surrounded by thin, black outlines. So a bar width would be about 100 feet per minute or less.

Damn thing was useless if completely dissoriented, so you went to needle, ball and rolled to stop the turn and then pulled to gain altitude.

I gotta tellya. After learning instruments on that kinda stuff, later planes were like cheating.

Gums sends....

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2019, 18:58
by outlaw162
After learning instruments on that kinda stuff, later planes were like cheating.


I agree, although some of those civvy vacuum attitude references were no trip to Hollywood either.

At Del Rio in mid-60s, our T-37 fleet had a mix of half J-8, half MM-3. Since Del Rio had T-38s and not T-33s, instrument check in the T-37 was required to be done on an MM-3, still somewhat primitive, size about like an SFD. T-38 had a nice layout, basically like an F-4, no tapes though like 105. The T-38 graduates who were assigned to ADC then had to go thru a short T-33 course to learn how to really fly instruments, before going to 101, 102, 106 etc., all-wx fighters.

All of the aircraft with SFD type indicators/displays I flew had at least one training session devoted to flying the SFD or equivalent with the primary instruments covered over or EFI/HUD turned off. I would reasonably think there is a training session of this type in the F-35 simulator? It appears you need to know when and how to use it.

(Our 2 T-33s at Niagara in '71 had a J-8 in one and an MM-3 in the other)

edit: you know the fallback is you can just 'automate' everything and take the pilot out of the loop gradually, which 'preserves' assets but opens pandora's box as far as pilot skills, requiring more automation, a vicious circle

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2019, 22:01
by Gums
Salute!

To expand upon Outlaw and the good stuff from Spaz....

Before the cosmic flight management systems that could connect to the autopilot, the instrument flying skill and associated training was the major driver of your wings. You had to do all the basic visual stuff, but also navigate and fly without any visual references. Oh yeah, maybe communicate and change IFF codes, radio freq's,, nav stations, required courses on the airways, and the beat goes on.

Air Defense Command missions required great instrument skills because we had to launch and land in any weather condiiton. As a raw nugget, I was cleared to fly at the field minimums, and more than once landed at less than the published numbers. Because I came from Craig ( last of the T-33 bases), I was fully qualified in the T-33. So 3 or 4 rides at Perrin and I was able to fly target missions when my Deuce training schedule allowed. Flew many hours with a T-38 guy in the back seat so he could log "instrument" time while I logged "pilot in command" Therefore, I accumulated many hours in the Lockheed racer before going to 'nam, because ADC let me fly both planes next two years. TAC did not do that except for a very few senior toads, and not for raw nuggets like me.

So I had about 1,000 hours in less than three years counting the Deuce and Voodoo hours. TAC guys also did not get as many hours because they had to have decent weather to go to the range. I also got very good flying close formation by staying 8 or 9 feet from the green or red light on the lead's wing tip. Once above the scud we went our separate ways for intercept practice.

Gums sends...

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2019, 22:04
by spazsinbad
Thanks for the stories. 'Limited Panel' (just pressure instruments & turn indicator) was fun WITH muchos patience required to master it. Recovery from what we called an 'unusual attitude' was done at high altitude to demonstrate "IF IN DOUBT - EJECT/PUNCH OUT"! I think. :shock: :D 8) :roll: I've described 'finding overhead a radio beacon on limited panel in cloud in a Vampire' on another thread here. For me a once only attempt never brought to a conclusion because the instructor got bored with it. "TAKING OVER" & we pointed earthwards as fast as possible for one of few landings I was a passenger.

Oops I see 'Gums' has responded as I typed..... Take a look at an RAN olde style variant of the dual seat Vampire layout. Oh what joy to have the AI hidden under your hand on the control column. Talk about flying with the leans as one leaned usually left to keep the AI in view (when pilot in command in the left seat - PAX usually in right seat being cool). :mrgreen:

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2019, 23:32
by outlaw162
That picture right there is probably partly responsible for the creation of ergonomics. :shock:

(BTW just to set the record straight, I've never been to the ballet) :D

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2019, 01:24
by spazsinbad
:roll: Any dancer twirls that way but I guess you always close your eyes (and get spatial disorientation). :devil: On this forum there are close ups of some of the three needle dials in VAMPs that in some circumstances spun furiously with the altimeter being easily misread by 10, 000 feet (also explained somewhere this forum). Those dials were KILLERS for jets.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2019, 10:04
by spazsinbad
ReReading the post earlier this paragraph caught my eye (for those who think blaming Japanese F-35A pilot is too easy).
Don’t believe your ears
05 Jan 2018 Staff Writers

"...Research from the United States National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) shows pilots without an instrument rating are five times more likely to have accidents in degraded visual conditions than pilots with instrument ratings. By the NTSB’s reckoning, spatial disorientation is blamed for up to 20 per cent of fatal accidents in military aviation, and about 40 per cent of fatal crashes in general aviation...."

Source: https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2 ... ur-ears-2/

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 03:32
by spazsinbad
As one may guess 'speak of the devil and his chains rattle' thereby summoning this quote from the most recent edition of the RANFAAA magazine SLIPSTREAM (3 pages attached below in PDF form). I have only 100+ hours in a Sea Venom flying only from NAS Nowra in a stripped own version with only two rides in the right hand seat with no radar installed). The old Sea Venom pilots now flying the A4G Skyhawk did not say much about their exploits and I did not ask because I did not need to know when I was also flying only ashore. Also until recently I was not aware that the older Venom pilots flew night circuits around the carrier at 400 feet but did so ashore also until an accident raised the shore circuit height to 1,000 feet.

Also interesting is the detail about the destroyer stern white light visible to the pilot side of aircraft. This is NOT the same as the extremely BRIGHT white fishing boat light just off ahead to starboard that I speak about for my SD - disorientation.

UNABLE to upload the PDF getting the message: "The uploaded file is empty" so will have to wait until glitch is fixed eh.
My Near Accident and Other Stories of Sea Venom Operations
June 2019 Max Speedy

...My role [Observer operating the air to air radar from the right hand seat in a dual/side by side Sea Venom FAW Mk53] in a day or night catapult launch wasn’t much – hang on and pray probably. But it wasn’t fun for the pilots. The cat stroke was 98 feet (just under 30 meters) and from nothing to flying speed of 120kts was not gentle – instant 4G and about two to three seconds later, you were airborne. [Venom had a transverse G catapult limit which restricted ops somewhat]

The interesting part of this was that at night the pilot was more or less blind. Sure there was the usual array of basic instruments – ASI, Turn and Bank, Altimeter and of course the Artificial Horizon (AH) as distinct from an Attitude Indicator (AI) that one has today. There were no radar altimeters nor angle of attack instruments. The latter day AI more or less has no errors. The artificial horizon ran directly off a gyro within the instrument and was good at best to around only say 60 degrees away from straight and level. Being belted off the catapult caused it to topple badly showing a nose up turn of about 10 degrees high and 15 degrees of bank even though you were still hopefully straight and level.

So the solution to this very real problem was this: the Rescue Destroyer which accompanied Melbourne as Plane Guard was placed either well astern to pick up crew that may have ditched while landing on, but at night, was placed well ahead and off to Port. In this position, Plane Guard’s white stern light was just visible out of the Sea Venom’s left hand side tiny direct vision panel. Provided Plane Guard’s stern light was kept below you, all was well until you had time to “Gear up, Flaps up, Cage the AH”, some anxious moments later....

...(The pilot’s “bang seat” was the Martin Baker Mk4-0, mine was the Mk 4-1 – both advertised to work from 90kts at zero altitude. So the Observer could get decent view of the radar there was a hood of sorts that concertina’d out some distance from the radar’s two screens necessitating a reclined (but definitely not comfortable) seat which was partly under the rear canopy rail. There was also the radar control box, a thing that came back and sat between the knees so you could fiddle with all its knobs and dials. Going off the catapult, you had to have one hand on the hood and the other on this box of tricks so neither hit you as you went from zero to 120kts in 98 feet. It didn’t always work!)...

Source: Slipstream Volume 30 No 2 June 2019

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 05:10
by Corsair1963
F-35 Pilot Killed in April Crash May Have Ignored Aircraft Instruments: Selva



QUOTE:

Selva described the special chair that the U.S. military uses to simulate what going through spatial disorientation feels like.

"Basically, what they do is they have you lower your head and they spin you like a merry-go-round, and then they ask you to turn your head either right or left," he said. "And while the chair is spinning, they say 'sit up' and they stop the chair. ... I guarantee you that when you experience it, you won't know which way is up ... and that is just in a chair on the ground with one G of gravity."

In flight, environmental factors add to the condition to the point where "you will believe your eyes before you believe your body," Selva said.

"If you are flying on a starlit night, where the stars reflect over the ocean, your eyes can't tell you which way up is," he said. "If you become spatially disoriented -- which means your inner ear has been defeated -- so you have ... maneuvered the aircraft in a way that causes the fluid in your semicircular canals to flow in a way it doesn't normally flow. Then all of your sensory processes in your body can't tell you which way is up, and it doesn't matter how hard you try. You won't be able to do it."


https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... 1560977149

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2019, 02:26
by spazsinbad
Perhaps SELVA made this claim without giving context (perhaps ONLY in 'USAF Fighters' for example) which may be true or:
"...Crashes as a result of spatial disorientation in the military are relatively rare, but they do happen, Selva said...."

Relative is as Relative does - a real problem for any accurate description without context given a reputable medical text:
"...By the NTSB’s reckoning, spatial disorientation is blamed for up to 20 per cent of fatal accidents in military aviation ''' [from DON'T BELIEVE YOUR EARS article on previous page & TOP of this page for quote]

Rereading next SELVA quote we can surmise what he means but what he is quoted as saying is indeed ODD - perhaps more context with the quote would help HIM (Help HIM - Help WHO? - Help the bombardier - BUT I AM the BOMBARDIER! - THEN HELP! HIM! - Catch 22).
"...In flight, environmental factors add to the condition to the point where "you will believe your eyes before you believe your body," Selva said...."

IF it needs to said again: A disoriented pilot needs to - with his eyes - believe his instruments (using his vision) rather than rely on the notoriously erroneous 'seat of the pants' bullcrap when flying without reference to the visual horizon outside.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2019, 05:18
by spazsinbad
Above on this page is a story about the TRIBULATIONS of the Sea Venom from the Obverver (radar operator) perspective. OBS called out the KIAS during a carrier (land I presume also) approach to save the pilot having to look inside the cockpit.

Now the PDF is attached - I hope.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2019, 05:54
by spazsinbad
Another example of an experienced pilot (daytime I believe) probably becoming incapacitated but lost at sea - cause UNK.
"...Aviation Safety Network reports: A3-77 Crashed 11/05/67, into sea off Newcastle NSW. Pilot killed during conversion course was Wing Commander Vance Drummond - was to be 3 Sqn CO. Suspect pilot incapacitated." https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/58418 [Pilot was Very Experienced in SABRES converting to the RAAF Mirage IIIO]

"17/05/67 - A3-77 Mirage IIIO(A) Was engaged in training exercises at 4.20pm when it entered a dive and crashed into sea about 80 kilometres north-east of Newcastle, NSW. 3 SQN CO Wing Commander Vance Drummond killed. Neither his body nor the aircraft was recovered." http://www.adf-serials.com.au/3a3.htm

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2019, 00:42
by usnvo
Another issue the Japanese pilot may have been suffering from is the relative unfamiliarity with the F-35. Because he had over 2000hrs in another type of aircraft but only 60hrs in the F-35, if he did suffer from disorientation, he may have fell back on his previous experience and muscle memory. Not sure how the two aircraft cockpits compare, but if you are looking for something in the wrong place or wrong format, you probably are not going to find it which just makes the disorientation worse.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2019, 06:21
by spazsinbad
Gums wrote:Salute!
I am not all that supportive of the above definition of "leans" [whichwhere?]. Maybe Outlaw, Spaz & others can help here.

My experience was that I tilted, or "leaned" my head to get the little gyros and hairs in the ear to agree with what my attitude indicator showed, or just to stay close on the wing during night weather. I swear, many a night in weather I was sure we had done a barrel roll or two. The worst time was when a really smooth lead would be in a turn, then suddently roll out. For a while you were sure that you were turning, but a glance at the ADI said you were wings level. Hence, when a lead, I always called our turns rolling in and rolling out. When solo, the "leans" usually went away after a few moments, especially if you did any turns.

Gums recalls....

From SD material another LEAN Definition: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=55255&p=420943&hilit=overview#p420943

On page numbered 9 or physical page 17 of the PDF:
An overview of spatial disorientation as a factor in aviation accidents and incidents
2007 Dr David G. Newman

"...The leans [page numbered 9]
The leans has been well recognised as the most common form of disorientation (Benson, 1988a; Holmes et al., 2003; Navathe & Singh, 1994; Sipes & Lessard, 2000). If a pilot experiences disorientation during their career, they will almost certainly experience this form of disorientation at some point. Fortunately, episodes of the leans are generally of a minor nature.

The leans is manifested by a false sensation of roll. It is extremely common, and is so named because it may cause pilots to lean to one side in order to cancel out the false sensation. The leans can occur in conditions of good visual cues. The typical situation in which the leans may occur involves a pilot flying an aircraft, trimmed for straight and level flight. For whatever reason (wind gust, etc) one wing may drop and the aircraft may then enter a gentle turn. This turn is at a rate of angular acceleration less than the threshold for activation of the semicircular canals. The result of this is that the pilot (who is generally head-down in the cockpit, studying a map for example) believes that they are still straight and level, while the aircraft is in a turn. As soon as the pilot looks up and out of the aircraft or at the instruments, the inadvertent turn is recognised and immediate recovery actions taken to restore actual straight and level flight. However, the crucial element here is that return to straight and level flight is generally made at a rate of angular acceleration greater than the threshold for activation of the semi-circular canals. As such the first input the canals receive is when the aircraft returns to straight and level flight. However, the canals now register an apparent change from straight and level flight to a turn in the opposite direction.

Hence, if the initial inadvertent turn was to the left, the pilot now sits in a straight and level aircraft with the canals now signalling an apparent turn to the right. In order to effectively make their head feel straight and level, the pilot leans in the direction of the initial turn (in this case, to the left). This may feel bizarre, with the pilot seeing the aircraft straight and level, and at the same time feeling straight and level but being aware of themself leaning to one side. Fortunately, if this is maintained the erroneous sensation of roll will wear off and leaning to one side is no longer required. Clearly, though, there is potential for disorientation and confusion to develop, and in a worst case scenario the pilot may become incapacitated by the unusual sensations and lose control of the aircraft...."

Source: https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/29971/b20070063.pdf (0.4Mb)

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2019, 06:42
by spazsinbad
Also from same source immediately above on page numbered 1 comes this quote about SD prevalence - Military Aviation.
…"...How big is the problem in the [MILITARY] aviation environment?
Spatial disorientation is a very common problem, and is a well recognised cause of aviation accidents. Various military forces around the world have examined the issue of SD in terms of its prevalence and contribution to accidents. In general, the results of these studies show that SD accounts for some six per cent to 32 per cent of major accidents, and some 15 per cent to 69 per cent of fatal accidents (Barnum & Bonner, 1971; Braithwaite, Durnford, & Crowley, 1998b; Cheung, Money, Wright, & Bateman, 1995; Gillingham & Previc, 1996; Hixson, Niven, & Spezia, 1972; Knapp & Johnson, 1996; Lyons, Ercoline, O’Toole, & Grayson, 2006; Moser, 1969; Singh & Navathe, 1994).

The United States (US) Navy has reported that during the period 1980 to 1989, some 112 major aircraft accidents involved SD of the crew (Bellenkes, Bason, & Yacavone, 1992). The US Air Force, for the same period, reported that SD led to 270 major aircraft mishaps (Holland, 1992). Another US Air Force study found that single-pilot aircraft might be more at risk from SD, and that a third of F-15 and F- 16 crashes were attributable to SD (Gillingham, 1992). A similar study also showed that Royal Netherlands Air Force pilots in the F-16 experienced 73 per cent more SD than in other types of fighter aircraft (Holland & Freeman, 1995). A US Air Force study, looking at F-16 Class A accidents during the years 1975 to 1993, found that 7.5 per cent of those accidents were due to SD (Knapp & Johnson, 1996). The most recent US Air Force study examined SD across 15 years of accident data, and found that SD accounted for 11 per cent of US Air Force accidents and 69 per cent of accident fatalities during the period 1990 to 2004 (Lyons et al., 2006).

In the United Kingdom (UK) Army, one study suggested that 21 per cent of their accidents were attributable to SD (Vyrnwy-Jones, 1985). Some authors have commented that comparing prevalence and incidence rates among air forces can be problematic depending on how the definition of SD is applied (Navathe & Singh, 1994).

In a recent survey of SD in UK miliary aircrew, the researchers reported that 21 per cent of aircrew who had experienced a disorientation event had regarded it as significant, with a further four per cent regarding the event as severe and a risk to flight safety (Holmes, Bunting, Brown, Hiatt, Braithwaite, & Harrigan, 2003). Another UK study showed that the overall SD accident rate was one per million flight hours (Bushby, Holmes, & Bunting, 2005).

In an Indian Air Force study, the researchers found that proven SD accounted for two per cent of all accidents, and almost eight per cent of fatal accidents (Singh & Navathe, 1994). However, if probable SD was added to proven SD, these figures increased to almost six per cent and 18 per cent respectively. The authors noted the difficulty that investigation boards were faced with in proving SD as a definite cause of the accident...."

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 17:25
by Gums
Salute!

Thanks Spaz

Glad some authoriative source echos my own experience with the "leans".


All must remember that just a sinple head cold can have an effect on your inner ear gyros. You might lose one but the other 5 are working great. So you sense wierd motion.

Gums sends...

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 21:51
by vilters
2 answers here:

a) Doctors advice against riding a motorcycles with a cold because of our inner ear sensors.
b) The high SA accident rate over Europe, not only the Netherlands, is also due to our weather system being what it is. Fog, mist, rain, low and dense clouds.

Lots of European pilots come to train in the USA because of the good weather, and then they come over here.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 22:31
by spazsinbad
Gums wrote:Salute! Thanks Spaz
Glad some authoritative source echoes my own experience with the "leans".
All must remember that just a simple head cold can have an effect on your inner ear gyros. You might lose one but the other 5 are working great. So you sense weird motion. Gums sends...

Yep - even the 'hint' of a cold can be weird depending on flight circumstances (don't tell me about 'hangovers') :roll: Lots of info is provided to miljet pilots about SD and colds with often FUNNY posters plastered everywhere to remind one. :shock:
:doh: WOT the poster text says (don't try this at home kiddies): :devil:
"Alcohol displaces part of the fluid in the inner ear, making the tiny hair cells hypersensitive to any movement. It can take 24-48 hours for the alcohol in your inner ear to dissipate, despite a 0.0 BAC. If you're not sure of your ability to fly safely on the morning after, sit down and put your head between your knees. Rapidly sit up. if you get dizzy or feel sick, you might still have alcohol on board, buried within your inner ear. Remember how it feels to spin and decide whether to take that chance in the cockpit.

Alcohol displaces inner ear fluid making tiny hair cells hypersensitive to any movement, almost as though they were sunburned."

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2019, 12:41
by spazsinbad
SAD SAD SAD… THIS IS A VERY LONG recent SCREED about a civil aviation accident with the SD conclusion below.
A Fatal Fog: Instantaneous Disorientation On Pre-Christmas Jaunt
25 Jun 2019 Richard N. Aarons

"...“Based on the evidence,” said the safety board, “it’s likely that when the airplane entered instrument meteorological conditions the pilot experienced spatial disorientation, which resulted in a loss of control and descent into terrain.” The safety board determined the probable cause of this accident was “the pilot’s loss of control due to spatial disorientation during takeoff in instrument meteorological conditions.”

Spatial Disorientation
The safety board added a note in its report that pilots flying under both instrument and visual flight rules are subject to spatial disorientation and optical illusions that may cause a loss of aircraft control.

FAA literature states that sight, supported by other senses, allows a pilot to maintain orientation while flying. However, when visibility is restricted (i.e., no visual reference to the horizon or surface detected) the body’s supporting senses can conflict with what is seen. When this spatial disorientation occurs, sensory conflicts and optical illusions often make it difficult for a pilot to tell which way is up.

Contributing to these phenomena are the various types of sensory stimuli: visual, vestibular (organs of equilibrium located in the inner ear) and proprioceptive (receptors located in the skin, muscles, tendons and joints). Changes in linear acceleration, angular acceleration and gravity are detected by the vestibular system and the proprioceptive receptors, and then compared in the brain with visual information.

“In a flight environment,” it noted, “these stimuli can vary in magnitude, direction and frequency, resulting in a sensory mismatch that can produce illusions and lead to spatial disorientation.”"

Source: https://aviationweek.com/business-aviat ... tmas-jaunt

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2019, 15:51
by mixelflick
Reading about SA and this loss of life is terrible.

From JFK Jr. to a local hero (F-15C pilot), this spatial disorientation is heartbreaking. The automatic ground collision avoidance system can't come soon enough. But credit to the engineers who developed it. It will be saving lives and aircraft long after they're gone..

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2019, 07:13
by Gamera
http://www.asagumo-news.com/homepage/ht ... 71607.html
https://news.livedoor.com/article/detail/16642241/

2019/06/03, ended search for wreck, and did not recover FDR [flight data recorder].

2019/07/07, funeral ceremony for Lieutenant Colonel [posthumous] Hosomi Akinori, at Misawa AB.

Body part(s) recovered, and confirmed.

He was F-4 pilot for more than 10 years.

As at 2019/07/16, 12 F-35A of 302nd Hikoutai, training still suspended.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2019, 10:07
by krieger22
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... 2-mai-soci

Seems like the 302nd has restarted training flights

Machine translation follows:

The Air Self-Defense Force resumed flying the state-of-the-art stealth fighter squadron that had been scheduled for the flight in the wake of the crash. The aircraft took off from Misawa Air Base, Aomori Prefecture, where the squadron is located, for the first time in about a month.

The air self is a policy to start from the basic training step by step, and the night training is not executed for the time being.

This is the state-of-the-art stealth fighter []] The accident occurred in the Pacific Ocean off the coast of Aomori Prefecture on the night of The Moon. On June 10, The Air Self published an interim report that said that the pilot of the accident aircraft was likely to have fallen into a "spatial disorientation" in which he lost his sense of balance.

Education, training, and inspection of aircraft for spatial disorientation have been promoted, and the local government has gained an understanding of the resumption of flight. Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya told reporters on Sunday that he was able to take all measures to ensure the safety of the flight. "We want to make sure that there is no delay as much as possible" in the deployment of the same type of aircraft in the future. [Machida Tokujo, Heike Yudai]


English language source here: https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Japan- ... atal-crash

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2019, 15:27
by Gamera
https://topics.smt.docomo.ne.jp/article ... 040127000c

Thursday, 2019/08/01:
F-35A x 2.
JASDF, based at Misawa AB, Aomori Prefecture.

14:45, training flights resumed, but not night training flights.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 09 Aug 2019, 11:04
by Gamera
(IMO, a sh*tty night.)

https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... 0-yom-soci
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... onews-soci
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... 8-jij-soci
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... onews-soci
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... onews-soci
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... 4-mai-soci

Friday, 2019/08/09:
Accident report, final version.

Accident cause is pilot's spatial disorientation, same conclusion as accident report mid-term version dated 2019/06/10.
Pilot not aware his altitude and attitude.

Accident investigation committee used simulator to reproduce accident according to data from data-share system and radar site.
Based on recovered engine fragments, engine was at high revolution speed before and until crash.

Control system, electric system, and engine were normally operating.
If not, simulator could not reproduce same trajectory.

During dive at 60 degrees and almost sonic speed, alarm sound and collision and speed warnings in display monitor, as appeared in simulator, warned pilot, but pilot began to recover a few degrees before crash.

One minute before crash, wingman flew near accident F-35, and could distract accident pilot.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2019, 15:28
by Gamera
>Tuesday, 9 April 2019:
>F-35A.
>79-8705. #705. US S/N 15-5158. C/N AX-05.

http://www.asagumo-news.com/homepage/ht ... 81604.html

2019/08/16:
Accident F-35 #705 was one of four aircraft in air combat training, and his opponent was the third of these aircraft.
To avoid US military aircraft approaching their training area, he began to descend.

The third aircraft he fought, was 2,200 m below him.
After the third aircraft flew by, he banked 135 degrees, and almost inverted.

Then he suddenly circled left 90 degrees.
From altitude 9,900 m, he descended at 60 degrees, and above 900 km/h.
From altitude 6,000 m, speed warning activated...

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2019, 11:44
by Gamera
https://www.chunichi.co.jp/s/article/20 ... 02439.html

2019/09/10

JASDF Misawa AB commander visits Misawa City mayor, and says F-35A night training will resume from 2019/09/17.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2019, 15:10
by ricnunes
Thanks Gamera! That really sheds light to what lead to this tragedy.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2019, 11:42
by Gamera
No problemo, dude.
The truth is out there.