Page 15 of 21

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2019, 01:24
by spazsinbad
:roll: Any dancer twirls that way but I guess you always close your eyes (and get spatial disorientation). :devil: On this forum there are close ups of some of the three needle dials in VAMPs that in some circumstances spun furiously with the altimeter being easily misread by 10, 000 feet (also explained somewhere this forum). Those dials were KILLERS for jets.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2019, 10:04
by spazsinbad
ReReading the post earlier this paragraph caught my eye (for those who think blaming Japanese F-35A pilot is too easy).
Don’t believe your ears
05 Jan 2018 Staff Writers

"...Research from the United States National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) shows pilots without an instrument rating are five times more likely to have accidents in degraded visual conditions than pilots with instrument ratings. By the NTSB’s reckoning, spatial disorientation is blamed for up to 20 per cent of fatal accidents in military aviation, and about 40 per cent of fatal crashes in general aviation...."

Source: ... ur-ears-2/

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 03:32
by spazsinbad
As one may guess 'speak of the devil and his chains rattle' thereby summoning this quote from the most recent edition of the RANFAAA magazine SLIPSTREAM (3 pages attached below in PDF form). I have only 100+ hours in a Sea Venom flying only from NAS Nowra in a stripped own version with only two rides in the right hand seat with no radar installed). The old Sea Venom pilots now flying the A4G Skyhawk did not say much about their exploits and I did not ask because I did not need to know when I was also flying only ashore. Also until recently I was not aware that the older Venom pilots flew night circuits around the carrier at 400 feet but did so ashore also until an accident raised the shore circuit height to 1,000 feet.

Also interesting is the detail about the destroyer stern white light visible to the pilot side of aircraft. This is NOT the same as the extremely BRIGHT white fishing boat light just off ahead to starboard that I speak about for my SD - disorientation.

UNABLE to upload the PDF getting the message: "The uploaded file is empty" so will have to wait until glitch is fixed eh.
My Near Accident and Other Stories of Sea Venom Operations
June 2019 Max Speedy

...My role [Observer operating the air to air radar from the right hand seat in a dual/side by side Sea Venom FAW Mk53] in a day or night catapult launch wasn’t much – hang on and pray probably. But it wasn’t fun for the pilots. The cat stroke was 98 feet (just under 30 meters) and from nothing to flying speed of 120kts was not gentle – instant 4G and about two to three seconds later, you were airborne. [Venom had a transverse G catapult limit which restricted ops somewhat]

The interesting part of this was that at night the pilot was more or less blind. Sure there was the usual array of basic instruments – ASI, Turn and Bank, Altimeter and of course the Artificial Horizon (AH) as distinct from an Attitude Indicator (AI) that one has today. There were no radar altimeters nor angle of attack instruments. The latter day AI more or less has no errors. The artificial horizon ran directly off a gyro within the instrument and was good at best to around only say 60 degrees away from straight and level. Being belted off the catapult caused it to topple badly showing a nose up turn of about 10 degrees high and 15 degrees of bank even though you were still hopefully straight and level.

So the solution to this very real problem was this: the Rescue Destroyer which accompanied Melbourne as Plane Guard was placed either well astern to pick up crew that may have ditched while landing on, but at night, was placed well ahead and off to Port. In this position, Plane Guard’s white stern light was just visible out of the Sea Venom’s left hand side tiny direct vision panel. Provided Plane Guard’s stern light was kept below you, all was well until you had time to “Gear up, Flaps up, Cage the AH”, some anxious moments later....

...(The pilot’s “bang seat” was the Martin Baker Mk4-0, mine was the Mk 4-1 – both advertised to work from 90kts at zero altitude. So the Observer could get decent view of the radar there was a hood of sorts that concertina’d out some distance from the radar’s two screens necessitating a reclined (but definitely not comfortable) seat which was partly under the rear canopy rail. There was also the radar control box, a thing that came back and sat between the knees so you could fiddle with all its knobs and dials. Going off the catapult, you had to have one hand on the hood and the other on this box of tricks so neither hit you as you went from zero to 120kts in 98 feet. It didn’t always work!)...

Source: Slipstream Volume 30 No 2 June 2019

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 05:10
by Corsair1963
F-35 Pilot Killed in April Crash May Have Ignored Aircraft Instruments: Selva


Selva described the special chair that the U.S. military uses to simulate what going through spatial disorientation feels like.

"Basically, what they do is they have you lower your head and they spin you like a merry-go-round, and then they ask you to turn your head either right or left," he said. "And while the chair is spinning, they say 'sit up' and they stop the chair. ... I guarantee you that when you experience it, you won't know which way is up ... and that is just in a chair on the ground with one G of gravity."

In flight, environmental factors add to the condition to the point where "you will believe your eyes before you believe your body," Selva said.

"If you are flying on a starlit night, where the stars reflect over the ocean, your eyes can't tell you which way up is," he said. "If you become spatially disoriented -- which means your inner ear has been defeated -- so you have ... maneuvered the aircraft in a way that causes the fluid in your semicircular canals to flow in a way it doesn't normally flow. Then all of your sensory processes in your body can't tell you which way is up, and it doesn't matter how hard you try. You won't be able to do it." ... 1560977149

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2019, 02:26
by spazsinbad
Perhaps SELVA made this claim without giving context (perhaps ONLY in 'USAF Fighters' for example) which may be true or:
"...Crashes as a result of spatial disorientation in the military are relatively rare, but they do happen, Selva said...."

Relative is as Relative does - a real problem for any accurate description without context given a reputable medical text:
"...By the NTSB’s reckoning, spatial disorientation is blamed for up to 20 per cent of fatal accidents in military aviation ''' [from DON'T BELIEVE YOUR EARS article on previous page & TOP of this page for quote]

Rereading next SELVA quote we can surmise what he means but what he is quoted as saying is indeed ODD - perhaps more context with the quote would help HIM (Help HIM - Help WHO? - Help the bombardier - BUT I AM the BOMBARDIER! - THEN HELP! HIM! - Catch 22).
"...In flight, environmental factors add to the condition to the point where "you will believe your eyes before you believe your body," Selva said...."

IF it needs to said again: A disoriented pilot needs to - with his eyes - believe his instruments (using his vision) rather than rely on the notoriously erroneous 'seat of the pants' bullcrap when flying without reference to the visual horizon outside.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2019, 05:18
by spazsinbad
Above on this page is a story about the TRIBULATIONS of the Sea Venom from the Obverver (radar operator) perspective. OBS called out the KIAS during a carrier (land I presume also) approach to save the pilot having to look inside the cockpit.

Now the PDF is attached - I hope.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2019, 05:54
by spazsinbad
Another example of an experienced pilot (daytime I believe) probably becoming incapacitated but lost at sea - cause UNK.
"...Aviation Safety Network reports: A3-77 Crashed 11/05/67, into sea off Newcastle NSW. Pilot killed during conversion course was Wing Commander Vance Drummond - was to be 3 Sqn CO. Suspect pilot incapacitated." [Pilot was Very Experienced in SABRES converting to the RAAF Mirage IIIO]

"17/05/67 - A3-77 Mirage IIIO(A) Was engaged in training exercises at 4.20pm when it entered a dive and crashed into sea about 80 kilometres north-east of Newcastle, NSW. 3 SQN CO Wing Commander Vance Drummond killed. Neither his body nor the aircraft was recovered."

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2019, 00:42
by usnvo
Another issue the Japanese pilot may have been suffering from is the relative unfamiliarity with the F-35. Because he had over 2000hrs in another type of aircraft but only 60hrs in the F-35, if he did suffer from disorientation, he may have fell back on his previous experience and muscle memory. Not sure how the two aircraft cockpits compare, but if you are looking for something in the wrong place or wrong format, you probably are not going to find it which just makes the disorientation worse.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2019, 06:21
by spazsinbad
Gums wrote:Salute!
I am not all that supportive of the above definition of "leans" [whichwhere?]. Maybe Outlaw, Spaz & others can help here.

My experience was that I tilted, or "leaned" my head to get the little gyros and hairs in the ear to agree with what my attitude indicator showed, or just to stay close on the wing during night weather. I swear, many a night in weather I was sure we had done a barrel roll or two. The worst time was when a really smooth lead would be in a turn, then suddently roll out. For a while you were sure that you were turning, but a glance at the ADI said you were wings level. Hence, when a lead, I always called our turns rolling in and rolling out. When solo, the "leans" usually went away after a few moments, especially if you did any turns.

Gums recalls....

From SD material another LEAN Definition: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=55255&p=420943&hilit=overview#p420943

On page numbered 9 or physical page 17 of the PDF:
An overview of spatial disorientation as a factor in aviation accidents and incidents
2007 Dr David G. Newman

"...The leans [page numbered 9]
The leans has been well recognised as the most common form of disorientation (Benson, 1988a; Holmes et al., 2003; Navathe & Singh, 1994; Sipes & Lessard, 2000). If a pilot experiences disorientation during their career, they will almost certainly experience this form of disorientation at some point. Fortunately, episodes of the leans are generally of a minor nature.

The leans is manifested by a false sensation of roll. It is extremely common, and is so named because it may cause pilots to lean to one side in order to cancel out the false sensation. The leans can occur in conditions of good visual cues. The typical situation in which the leans may occur involves a pilot flying an aircraft, trimmed for straight and level flight. For whatever reason (wind gust, etc) one wing may drop and the aircraft may then enter a gentle turn. This turn is at a rate of angular acceleration less than the threshold for activation of the semicircular canals. The result of this is that the pilot (who is generally head-down in the cockpit, studying a map for example) believes that they are still straight and level, while the aircraft is in a turn. As soon as the pilot looks up and out of the aircraft or at the instruments, the inadvertent turn is recognised and immediate recovery actions taken to restore actual straight and level flight. However, the crucial element here is that return to straight and level flight is generally made at a rate of angular acceleration greater than the threshold for activation of the semi-circular canals. As such the first input the canals receive is when the aircraft returns to straight and level flight. However, the canals now register an apparent change from straight and level flight to a turn in the opposite direction.

Hence, if the initial inadvertent turn was to the left, the pilot now sits in a straight and level aircraft with the canals now signalling an apparent turn to the right. In order to effectively make their head feel straight and level, the pilot leans in the direction of the initial turn (in this case, to the left). This may feel bizarre, with the pilot seeing the aircraft straight and level, and at the same time feeling straight and level but being aware of themself leaning to one side. Fortunately, if this is maintained the erroneous sensation of roll will wear off and leaning to one side is no longer required. Clearly, though, there is potential for disorientation and confusion to develop, and in a worst case scenario the pilot may become incapacitated by the unusual sensations and lose control of the aircraft...."

Source: (0.4Mb)

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2019, 06:42
by spazsinbad
Also from same source immediately above on page numbered 1 comes this quote about SD prevalence - Military Aviation.
…"...How big is the problem in the [MILITARY] aviation environment?
Spatial disorientation is a very common problem, and is a well recognised cause of aviation accidents. Various military forces around the world have examined the issue of SD in terms of its prevalence and contribution to accidents. In general, the results of these studies show that SD accounts for some six per cent to 32 per cent of major accidents, and some 15 per cent to 69 per cent of fatal accidents (Barnum & Bonner, 1971; Braithwaite, Durnford, & Crowley, 1998b; Cheung, Money, Wright, & Bateman, 1995; Gillingham & Previc, 1996; Hixson, Niven, & Spezia, 1972; Knapp & Johnson, 1996; Lyons, Ercoline, O’Toole, & Grayson, 2006; Moser, 1969; Singh & Navathe, 1994).

The United States (US) Navy has reported that during the period 1980 to 1989, some 112 major aircraft accidents involved SD of the crew (Bellenkes, Bason, & Yacavone, 1992). The US Air Force, for the same period, reported that SD led to 270 major aircraft mishaps (Holland, 1992). Another US Air Force study found that single-pilot aircraft might be more at risk from SD, and that a third of F-15 and F- 16 crashes were attributable to SD (Gillingham, 1992). A similar study also showed that Royal Netherlands Air Force pilots in the F-16 experienced 73 per cent more SD than in other types of fighter aircraft (Holland & Freeman, 1995). A US Air Force study, looking at F-16 Class A accidents during the years 1975 to 1993, found that 7.5 per cent of those accidents were due to SD (Knapp & Johnson, 1996). The most recent US Air Force study examined SD across 15 years of accident data, and found that SD accounted for 11 per cent of US Air Force accidents and 69 per cent of accident fatalities during the period 1990 to 2004 (Lyons et al., 2006).

In the United Kingdom (UK) Army, one study suggested that 21 per cent of their accidents were attributable to SD (Vyrnwy-Jones, 1985). Some authors have commented that comparing prevalence and incidence rates among air forces can be problematic depending on how the definition of SD is applied (Navathe & Singh, 1994).

In a recent survey of SD in UK miliary aircrew, the researchers reported that 21 per cent of aircrew who had experienced a disorientation event had regarded it as significant, with a further four per cent regarding the event as severe and a risk to flight safety (Holmes, Bunting, Brown, Hiatt, Braithwaite, & Harrigan, 2003). Another UK study showed that the overall SD accident rate was one per million flight hours (Bushby, Holmes, & Bunting, 2005).

In an Indian Air Force study, the researchers found that proven SD accounted for two per cent of all accidents, and almost eight per cent of fatal accidents (Singh & Navathe, 1994). However, if probable SD was added to proven SD, these figures increased to almost six per cent and 18 per cent respectively. The authors noted the difficulty that investigation boards were faced with in proving SD as a definite cause of the accident...."

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 17:25
by Gums

Thanks Spaz

Glad some authoriative source echos my own experience with the "leans".

All must remember that just a sinple head cold can have an effect on your inner ear gyros. You might lose one but the other 5 are working great. So you sense wierd motion.

Gums sends...

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 21:51
by vilters
2 answers here:

a) Doctors advice against riding a motorcycles with a cold because of our inner ear sensors.
b) The high SA accident rate over Europe, not only the Netherlands, is also due to our weather system being what it is. Fog, mist, rain, low and dense clouds.

Lots of European pilots come to train in the USA because of the good weather, and then they come over here.

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 22:31
by spazsinbad
Gums wrote:Salute! Thanks Spaz
Glad some authoritative source echoes my own experience with the "leans".
All must remember that just a simple head cold can have an effect on your inner ear gyros. You might lose one but the other 5 are working great. So you sense weird motion. Gums sends...

Yep - even the 'hint' of a cold can be weird depending on flight circumstances (don't tell me about 'hangovers') :roll: Lots of info is provided to miljet pilots about SD and colds with often FUNNY posters plastered everywhere to remind one. :shock:
:doh: WOT the poster text says (don't try this at home kiddies): :devil:
"Alcohol displaces part of the fluid in the inner ear, making the tiny hair cells hypersensitive to any movement. It can take 24-48 hours for the alcohol in your inner ear to dissipate, despite a 0.0 BAC. If you're not sure of your ability to fly safely on the morning after, sit down and put your head between your knees. Rapidly sit up. if you get dizzy or feel sick, you might still have alcohol on board, buried within your inner ear. Remember how it feels to spin and decide whether to take that chance in the cockpit.

Alcohol displaces inner ear fluid making tiny hair cells hypersensitive to any movement, almost as though they were sunburned."

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2019, 12:41
by spazsinbad
SAD SAD SAD… THIS IS A VERY LONG recent SCREED about a civil aviation accident with the SD conclusion below.
A Fatal Fog: Instantaneous Disorientation On Pre-Christmas Jaunt
25 Jun 2019 Richard N. Aarons

"...“Based on the evidence,” said the safety board, “it’s likely that when the airplane entered instrument meteorological conditions the pilot experienced spatial disorientation, which resulted in a loss of control and descent into terrain.” The safety board determined the probable cause of this accident was “the pilot’s loss of control due to spatial disorientation during takeoff in instrument meteorological conditions.”

Spatial Disorientation
The safety board added a note in its report that pilots flying under both instrument and visual flight rules are subject to spatial disorientation and optical illusions that may cause a loss of aircraft control.

FAA literature states that sight, supported by other senses, allows a pilot to maintain orientation while flying. However, when visibility is restricted (i.e., no visual reference to the horizon or surface detected) the body’s supporting senses can conflict with what is seen. When this spatial disorientation occurs, sensory conflicts and optical illusions often make it difficult for a pilot to tell which way is up.

Contributing to these phenomena are the various types of sensory stimuli: visual, vestibular (organs of equilibrium located in the inner ear) and proprioceptive (receptors located in the skin, muscles, tendons and joints). Changes in linear acceleration, angular acceleration and gravity are detected by the vestibular system and the proprioceptive receptors, and then compared in the brain with visual information.

“In a flight environment,” it noted, “these stimuli can vary in magnitude, direction and frequency, resulting in a sensory mismatch that can produce illusions and lead to spatial disorientation.”"

Source: ... tmas-jaunt

Re: JASDF F-35A crashed

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2019, 15:51
by mixelflick
Reading about SA and this loss of life is terrible.

From JFK Jr. to a local hero (F-15C pilot), this spatial disorientation is heartbreaking. The automatic ground collision avoidance system can't come soon enough. But credit to the engineers who developed it. It will be saving lives and aircraft long after they're gone..