JASDF F-35A crashed

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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ricnunes

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Unread post21 May 2019, 18:36

steve2267 wrote:Such a scenario seems to fit what little had dribbed and drabbed out, but is still purely conjecture. And AFAIK, such an avionic computer hardware / software meltdown should never occur. But bad things seem to happen when Murphy shows up with never on his arm.


That would be strange since the F-35 does have a backup display with a Horizontal Situation Indicator (HSI - artificial horizon) which also shows airspeed and altitude (and even heading) data. This backup display is located right below the main display and more or less between the pilot's legs.

This can be observed on the image below:
cockpit.jpg
Souirce: ainonline.com
Last edited by ricnunes on 22 May 2019, 10:40, edited 1 time in total.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Dragon029

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Unread post21 May 2019, 23:27

The main cockpit display is also made up of 2 independent displays / display processors (plus the HMDS has its own display computer). It might maybe be possible that an ICP failure could cause all displays to stop operating normally, but I'd doubt it (that'd be creating a single point of failure that renders multiple other layers of redundancy useless).
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steve2267

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Unread post22 May 2019, 21:48

The only pieces of the puzzle that fit together are that apparently no large pieces have been found. The only events that I can think of that would result in the plane being in small pieces would be either a high speed impact, or one massive explosion. I've read nothing to suggest anything like an explosion occurred.

A possible explanation for a high speed impact -- or flight into the ocean surface at cruise speed, perhaps -- would be vertigo, or unusual attitudes that the pilot did not notice (or other really bad sh*t). Vertigo over a dark ocean at night or in bad weather could be one scenario. Or dealing with lots of other problems and not picking up on a descent into the ocean could be another. Complete (or really really) bad avionics collapse or malfunction could be a possibility, BUT everything I have read suggests this would be really really really rare if not simply impossible.

Nevertheless, some bad juju occurred. By all accounts the pilot was highly experienced. One more example of the risks involved in military aviation.

May the pilot R.I.P. Much respect to him and all that serve.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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krieger22

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Unread post28 May 2019, 07:09

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/201905 ... 01000.html

They found some more parts that could be from the wings or the engine.
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Unread post28 May 2019, 09:15

From URL above Google Translate has turned into a shitshow for sure, now limit of characters to translate so here....
Crashed F35 fighters Discovering some of the engines and wings on the ocean floor
28 May 2019 NHW News Web

"Last month, about the crashed SDF's F35 fighter, Iwaya, the Minister of Defense, revealed that it had found and found parts of the engine and parts of the wing on the seabed near the site.

In the accident that the Air Self-Defense Force's latest stealth fighter F35 crashed off Aomori Prefecture on the 9th of last month, the area of ​​the site where the aircraft is considered to be sunk is 1,500 meters deep where the water depth is deepest, so far Although some are found, the search is difficult.

Iwaya, Minister of Defense, told reporters after the cabinet meeting, "The engine and the wings that were seen as part of it were newly withdrawn, but it was extremely damaged. "I would like to set the whole area as a priority area and continue to search for it."

On that basis, “The communication data of the F35's training together and the trajectory of the radar captured from the base are still left. "I have not yet found an important flight recorder itself to investigate the cause, but showed the idea to advance the cause investigation.""

Source: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/html/201905 ... 01000.html
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post28 May 2019, 13:55

Truly sad and I hope they recover the pilots body, so the family can at least have some closure.

That said, the news wires report that Japan will order another 105, bringing the total up to around 150. That's a respectable number, and it wouldn't surprise me if they buy even more. Poland too, looks like they're going F-35. Throw in Malaysia and a few other new countries, and LM has to really be happy with the orders of record. Turkey hurts because they were to buy 200, but not delivering it in the face of the S-400 is the right thing to do.

Crash sounds like spatial disorientation, but nobody will know for sure until the accident findings are made public. An F-4 pilot told me once that aviation was a dangerous business, and you had to be prepared to lose at least 1 friend a year. This was in the mid 80's. I sincerely hope its gotten better since then...
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blindpilot

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Unread post28 May 2019, 16:19

mixelflick wrote:Truly sad and I hope they recover the pilots body, so the family can at least have some closure.
... An F-4 pilot told me once that aviation was a dangerous business, and you had to be prepared to lose at least 1 friend a year. This was in the mid 80's. I sincerely hope its gotten better since then...


My academy roommate was killed in an F-4 training accident in waters in that area. Every one has a story. It's a business with real risk. That's also why purchase numbers include expected "attrition" replacements. "Here's a toast ...

BP
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Gamera

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Unread post29 May 2019, 15:51

Just for comparison, reminds me of: on Thursday, 13 March 1958, a JASDF F-86F crashed into sea, near Shizuoka Prefecture.
Wreck and pilot weren't recovered.
For funeral, hairs from his hat, and part of caecum kept after surgery, were buried or cremated.
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mixelflick

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Unread post30 May 2019, 14:08

Gamera wrote:Just for comparison, reminds me of: on Thursday, 13 March 1958, a JASDF F-86F crashed into sea, near Shizuoka Prefecture.
Wreck and pilot weren't recovered.
For funeral, hairs from his hat, and part of caecum kept after surgery, were buried or cremated.


God that's terrible.

Hopefully more nations see the wisdom in something like the Auto Ground Collision Avoidance System. Dunno if I have the name right, but takes over and levels the plane until the pilot regains consciousness. Hard to believe nobody thought of this before, or maybe the tech wasn't there.

Whatever the case, it's an immediate return on investment and well worth it. Saves lives, saves aircraft. Around me, the 104th lost an F-15 pilot a ways back given some calamity that rendered him unconscious/unable to control his jet. I often wonder if something like this could have saved him.

RIP "Moose"...
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Unread post04 Jun 2019, 05:32

Japan preparing to resume F-35 flights
04 Jun 2019 NHKworld

"NHK has learned that the Defense Ministry plans to end a major search operation for an F-35 fighter jet that crashed off northern Japan, and prepare to resume flights of the same model. The missing aircraft, which was procured from the United States, went down in waters off Aomori Prefecture in early April. Only pieces of the engine and main wing have been discovered so far. The pilot is still missing.

Nearly two months after the incident, ministry officials plan to call off the search for the plane's flight recorder and other key parts, which could offer a clue to what caused the incident. But they will continue a scaled-down search operation, as the aircraft contains highly-classified technologies.

The ministry officials suspect that the pilot lost his equilibrium while flying the jet, according to their analysis of communications data from other F-35 fighters and radar data from their base.

The ministry plans to take steps to prevent a recurrence, such as beefing up pilot training on the ground, and will try to ensure the safety of its remaining fleet of 12 F-35 stealth combat jets before resuming flights."

Source: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20190604_02/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Corsair1963

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Unread post04 Jun 2019, 05:53

Pilot Error?
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Unread post04 Jun 2019, 06:17

I'll bet more training in simulator at night for new pilots to get used to the HMDS & to experience deliberate SD recovery.

An SD overview Orientation & disorientation in aviation 2013: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 48-2-2.pdf (0.8Mb)
An overview of spatial disorientation as a factor in aviation accidents and incidents
2007 Dr David G. Newman

"...Types of spatial disorientation
Three basic types of SD have been described, for the purposes of classification. These types are Type I (unrecognized), Type II (recognised) and Type III (incapacitating).

Type I (unrecognized)
In this form of disorientation, the pilot is unaware that they are disoriented or that they have lost situational awareness. The pilot, unaware of the problem, continues to fly the aircraft as normal. This is particularly dangerous, as the pilot will not take any appropriate corrective action, since they do not perceive that there is in fact a problem. The fully functioning aircraft is then flown into the ground, with often fatal results. This form of SD is clearly dangerous, and accounts for the majority of SD accidents and fatalities (Braithwaite et al., 1998b).

Type II (recognized)
Type II SD is more common than Type I. In this form of disorientation, the pilot becomes aware that there is a problem. While the pilot may or may not be aware that the problem is SD, in this form of disorientation they are aware that something is not quite right, that their sensory system is giving information that does not agree with the information available from the instruments, or that things just don’t add up. The conflict between their own perceptions and that given to them by the instruments or the outside visual world alerts them to a problem, which they are then in a position to deal with. If this is successfully dealt with, a SD accident does not tend to result. The pilot may then have received a valuable lesson on SD and how to recover from it.

Type III (incapacitating)
In Type III SD, the pilot experiences the most extreme form of disorientation stress. The pilot may be aware of the disorientation, but is mentally and physically overwhelmed to the point where they are unable to successfully recover from the situation. They may freeze at the controls, or make control inputs that tend to exacerbate the situation rather than effect recovery from it. The pilot may fight the aircraft all the way to ground impact, never once achieving controlled flight. Such forms of disorientation are a result of breakdowns in the normal cognitive processes, possibly due to the overwhelming nature of the situation, especially if other factors such as fatigue and high workload are also present....

CONCLUSION
Spatial disorientation (SD) is always a risk to pilots. It is a function of the inherent operating limitations of the normal human orientation systems in the three-dimensional, complex motion environment of flight. It can happen to any normal pilot at any time. There are many different illusions and disorientating phenomena that pilots may experience, depending on the nature of their operations and the phase of flight. There are many steps that can be taken by pilots to minimise their risk of experiencing SD on a given flight, many of which involve pre-flight planning and adequate preparation. Being aware of the risk of SD is one of the key elements in preventing a SD accident."

Source: https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/29971/b20070063.pdf (0.4Mb)
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post05 Jun 2019, 11:24

Japan to Keep Monitoring F-35 Crash Site to 'Protect Classified Info'
2019/06/04 - Sputnik International

Read: https://sputniknews.com/asia/2019060410 ... -35-plane/

Japan ends search for crashed F-35 fighter jet
2019/06/04 - Times of India
Read: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 643823.cms
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count_to_10

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Unread post05 Jun 2019, 23:17

Corsair1963 wrote:Pilot Error?

Seems like a case of controlled flight into terrain, but you have to wonder if the cause wasn’t medical in some way.
Not much you can do about a pilot suddenly having a stroke in the cockpit or the like.
Einstein got it backward: one cannot prevent a war without preparing for it.

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Unread post06 Jun 2019, 11:07

This recovery is totally different but similar in water depth etc. However the C-2 ditched - so a low speed water impact. Mentioned here to illustrate what MAY be possible if LARGE pieces of the F-35A wreckage can be found - guessing though.

Navy Recovers C-2A from Fatal 2017 Crash from 3 Miles Underwater 05 Jun 2018 Sam LaGrone
https://news.usni.org/2019/06/05/navy-r ... underwater
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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