F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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usnvo

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Unread post17 Feb 2019, 00:21

steve2267 wrote:Is it unclass how many AIM-120's an F-35 can command guide at one time?


I am not sure, but since it was publicly reported that the F-35 had successfully, simultaneously shot down two target drones, the answer would be two or more.
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ricnunes

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Unread post17 Feb 2019, 00:29

botsing wrote:
ricnunes wrote:This happens when the missile is already close to the target. I've remember to have read something around 10 nautical miles.

Do we have any reliable source for a more accurate time before the AIM-120D seeker goes active?

10nm to me seems still too far out and would give the target too much time to act.


Well this is something that I seem to remember to have read years ago, as such I'm pretty sure that this wouldn't apply or necessarily apply to the AIM-120D, or resuming what I read about the AMRAAM was certainly about a pre-AIM-120D variant.

As this being something that I have read years ago, it is quite possible that I could be confusing nautical miles for kilometers as wrightwing previously mentioned, which in this case would be 10km away from the target in order for the AMRAAM to go "Pitbull".

Anyway even if the range for the AMRAAM to go active was to be 10 nautical miles then this still wouldn't give much time for the enemy pilot to react, for example:
- The AMRAAM top speed is said to be Mach 4 or around 4,900km/h but lets imagine for example a situation that when the AMRAAM is nearing a target that it is flying at around 4,000km/h - at this speed the missile will travel the 10 nautical miles in around 16 seconds - and this is the missile estimated missile impact on target time - which means that the pilot reaction time will be much shorter than those 16 seconds which by itself is already too or quite short.
Now if the enemy aircraft is flying towards the general direction of the incoming missile (which often happens in such aerial combats) then the distance that the missile will have to travel will be quite shorter (talking into account the enemy aircraft speed and closing the distance gap) and as such the time for the missile impact to target as well as the enemy pilot reaction time will be even shorter.
- Now imagine if I mistaken (10) nautical miles with (10) kilometers. This means that the enemy pilot reaction time will be even much shorter than the examples above!
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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popcorn

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Unread post17 Feb 2019, 01:08

So how does it work. The AMRAAM seeker is activated when it it sure by the INS that the target should be within a certain calculated range? Might there be an option for the F-35 to activate the seeker for more precise targeting?
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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wrightwing

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Unread post17 Feb 2019, 03:26

usnvo wrote:
wrightwing wrote:Those Pk numbers are against maneuvering targets, that are possibly employing countermeasures. Non-maneuvering targets, with no countermeasures, and within the the NEZ, should be close to 100% Pk.


While not a hard and fast number, simple reliability of the missile limits Pk to something more like 90%. Even the most reliable missile ever developed, the D-5, has not demonstrated 100% reliability.

Even 90% reliability could allow 4 hits, though (especially against a non-maneuvering target.)
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ricnunes

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Unread post17 Feb 2019, 12:56

wrightwing wrote:
usnvo wrote:
wrightwing wrote:Those Pk numbers are against maneuvering targets, that are possibly employing countermeasures. Non-maneuvering targets, with no countermeasures, and within the the NEZ, should be close to 100% Pk.


While not a hard and fast number, simple reliability of the missile limits Pk to something more like 90%. Even the most reliable missile ever developed, the D-5, has not demonstrated 100% reliability.


Even 90% reliability could allow 4 hits, though (especially against a non-maneuvering target.)



Yes indeed.
For example even the most precise DNA tests don't have a 100% accuracy, they also have an accuracy within the 90-ish% which is enough for giving an absolute result namely in "sensitive areas" such as criminal forensics.

Anyway, I strongly believe that those 10% failure rate in the case of missiles such as the AMRAAM are there to take into account an eventual missile failure ("mechanical" or electronics) and not so much the eventual ability of an enemy pilot/aircraft being able to evade the missile when fired on optimal conditions.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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pron

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Unread post17 Feb 2019, 22:36

The First Reports Of How The F-35 Strutted Its Stuff In Dogfights Against Aggressors At Red Flag Are Starting To Emerge.
https://theaviationist.com/2019/02/16/t ... to-emerge/
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Unread post18 Feb 2019, 00:12

What a crap article. Dredged up the past (2017) then repeated what we already know - even down to the photo. SHEESH. NO MENTION of what is 'new' about RED FLAG 19-1 just a load of old stuff then a recent story about the nuggets added.

'SWP' posted guts of newest stuff on 3rd thread page: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=54962&p=411692&hilit=Garbarino#p411692
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charlielima223

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Unread post18 Feb 2019, 02:43

pron wrote:The First Reports Of How The F-35 Strutted Its Stuff In Dogfights Against Aggressors At Red Flag Are Starting To Emerge.
https://theaviationist.com/2019/02/16/t ... to-emerge/


The comment section will be fun to read... in a masochistic morbid sense. Unfortunately the comment section of the Aviationist are often over run with Russian trolls and generally ignorant individuals
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gc

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Unread post18 Feb 2019, 03:15

“I’ve never seen anything like it before.” Wood said. “This is not a mission you want a young pilot flying in. My wingman was a brand new F-35A pilot, seven or eight flights out of training. He gets on the radio and tells an experienced, 3,000-hour pilot in a very capable fourth-generation aircraft. ‘Hey bud, you need to turn around. You’re about to die. There’s a threat off your nose.'"

Wonder if the very capable 4th gen was an RAF Typhoon. It it was then this example can pretty much close the Lightning II vs Typhoon argument.
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Unread post18 Feb 2019, 03:25

gc wrote:“I’ve never seen anything like it before.” Wood said. “This is not a mission you want a young pilot flying in. My wingman was a brand new F-35A pilot, seven or eight flights out of training. He gets on the radio and tells an experienced, 3,000-hour pilot in a very capable fourth-generation aircraft. ‘Hey bud, you need to turn around. You’re about to die. There’s a threat off your nose.'"

Wonder if the very capable 4th gen was an RAF Typhoon. It it was then this example can pretty much close the Lightning II vs Typhoon argument.


I think that statement better illustrates the training and thinking between a veteran pilot who has plenty of time in a 4th gen platforms compared to the training and thinking of a new 5th gen pilot as well as the amount of SA the F-35 brings to the battle space. More experienced pilots who have time in both 4th gen platforms and 5th gen platforms state along the lines of...
Coming to the --insert F-35 or F-22-- from the --insert 4th gen platform--, you bring the baggage of 4th gen experience so you naturally want to fly and fight as a 4th gen operator
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popcorn

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Unread post18 Feb 2019, 05:28

Taunting aside, I'm guessing the advent of MADL and a fused COP result in less.radio chatter between 5gens as compared to legacy jets.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post18 Feb 2019, 06:11

QUOTE:

During the first week of Red Flag, the F-35 pilots flew in a larger force of Blue Air in a counter-air mission. More than 60 aggressor aircraft were flying against them, blinding many of the fourth-generation aircraft with “robust” electronic attack capabilities.
“I’ve never seen anything like it before.” Wood said. “This is not a mission you want a young pilot flying in. My wingman was a brand new F-35A pilot, seven or eight flights out of training. He gets on the radio and tells an experienced, 3,000-hour pilot in a very capable fourth-generation aircraft. ‘Hey bud, you need to turn around. You’re about to die. There’s a threat off your nose.’”
The young pilot then “killed” the enemy aircraft and had three more kills in the hour-long mission.

“Even in this extremely challenging environment, the F-35 didn’t have many difficulties doing its job,” Wood said. ‘That’s a testament to the pilot’s training and the capabilities of the jet.”
One of the most valuable things about this exercise for the 4th Fighter Squadron is the experience it provided younger pilots flying combat missions as part of an integrated force. Thirteen pilots in the squadron have never flown the F-35 in Red Flag, and four of them just graduated pilot training.
“They say it’s the most realistic thing to combat,” said 1st Lt. Landon Moores, a new F-35A pilot. “It’s been pretty intense.”

https://www.388fw.acc.af.mil/News/Artic ... upS45Js9g/
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Unread post18 Feb 2019, 06:58

On page three this thread 'SWP' started the YOUNG STUFF; the quote in bits & pieces has been repeated here since then.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=54962&p=411692&hilit=young#p411692 Original story STARTED at DVIDS? Dunno.

http://www.dvidshub.net/news/310967/hil ... o-red-flag PHOTO familiar? DO the GORILLA MASH.
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Unread post18 Feb 2019, 09:35

marsavian wrote:AIM-120 doesn't have a SARH mode. It is initially datalink guided to where its active radar can automatically take over and there is also a HOJ mode.


One interesting thing is that SM-6 missile uses AMRAAM seeker and it definitely does have SARH mode (along with ARH mode). It might well be that there is no SARH mode in "normal" AMRAAM seeker, although I don't think it would be that difficult to implement either. It could and would likely be done with software and might not require significant hardware modifications (although might need some). Of course the usefulness might be questionable in aircraft with relatively small radars and different engagement geometries than ships.
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optimist

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Unread post18 Feb 2019, 13:34

spazsinbad wrote:What a crap article. Dredged up the past (2017) then repeated what we already know - even down to the photo. SHEESH. NO MENTION of what is 'new' about RED FLAG 19-1 just a load of old stuff then a recent story about the nuggets added.

'SWP' posted guts of newest stuff on 3rd thread page: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=54962&p=411692&hilit=Garbarino#p411692

We will see what is released. It would be interesting to hear anything on the aussies.
https://news.defence.gov.au/media/media ... e-red-flag
“Up to six F/A-18A Classic Hornets from Number 77 Squadron, one E-7A Wedgetail Airborne Early Warning and Control aircraft from Number 2 Squadron and one AP-3C (Electronic Warfare) Orion aircraft from Number 10 Squadron have flown over for the exercise.
Last edited by optimist on 18 Feb 2019, 13:40, edited 1 time in total.
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