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Re: F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2019, 15:40
by marsavian
Geographically Russia has a busy often aggressive neighborhood in Europe and Asia and the most mass to defend. The US in contrast has no immediate dangerous neighbors which is probably why SAMs are low on the priority list.

Re: F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2019, 15:50
by ricnunes
steve2267 wrote:Are those huge, hulking ground machines stealth? Are their radio emissions / comms stealth / LPI?


Well, I would say that there are techniques/tactics which could help concealing such systems such as camouflage, using terrain masking or otherwise hiding such systems in other places such as inside cities.
Yes, such tactics can fortunately be defeated (they have been on the past) but nonetheless they definitely make the life much harder for attacking aircraft.

I don't think that even the Russians expect those systems to completely avoid enemy strike aircraft to be able to strike/hit their assigned targets (although they will never admit this!).
IMO, the best that these systems could expect to do would be to cause significant casualties among incoming enemy aircraft and of course destroying significant numbers of incoming cruise missiles and other weapons (or resuming: Attrition).

steve2267 wrote:If they are not, then they would seem to be the 21st century equivalent to fixed fortifications such as the Maginot Line in the early 20th century.


I definitely don't see them like that! For starters and as opposed to the "Maginot Line" those systems are actually mobile and quite so.
Even the monster of a radar system below (the Nebo-M EW Radar) can be "disassembled" and "hit the road" in 15 minutes and vice-versa (assembled and put to work in 15 minutes), so imagine those other much more compact and thus more mobile systems previously mentioned?
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Re: F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2019, 15:52
by ricnunes
marsavian wrote:Geographically Russia has a busy often aggressive neighborhood in Europe and Asia and the most mass to defend. The US in contrast has no immediate dangerous neighbors which is probably why SAMs are low on the priority list.


Yes, I fully agree.
Basically the US Land based SAM systems are meant to defend US military bases and ground forces deployed abroad.

Re: F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2019, 19:47
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:How on earth did we fall so far behind in Surface to AIr Missiles?

Does the US not prioritize SAM defense, or is it something else? We have... the Patriot. Far inferior at least on paper, and not many of them compared to the Russians/Chinese.

I would have thought after DS1 and all the hoopla around the Patriot, we would have taken that ball and ran with it. Yes, yes I understand most Patriots missed. But still... one well placed SCUD warhead was enough to decimate our troops toward the end of the war.

How did we abdicate our responsibility for building a world class air defense network???



Define fallen behind. No SAMs are more combat tested/proven than the Patriot GEM-T and MSE variants. As for quantity/types, that reflects a difference in doctrine between the US and Russia.

Re: F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2019, 20:35
by sferrin
ricnunes wrote:
marsavian wrote:Geographically Russia has a busy often aggressive neighborhood in Europe and Asia and the most mass to defend. The US in contrast has no immediate dangerous neighbors which is probably why SAMs are low on the priority list.


Yes, I fully agree.
Basically the US Land based SAM systems are meant to defend US military bases and ground forces deployed abroad.


Yep. Just look at when the US was convinced hoards of Russian bombers would be coming over the pole. 134 batteries of Nike Hercules (with over 2 THOUSAND nukes produced just for the Nike force), several Bomarc sites, a branch of the USAF, the Air Defense Command, dedicated to defending US airspace with nuclear-armed F-89s, F-101s, F-102s, and F-106s. As the perceived threat went away so did Continental defense.

Re: F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2019, 23:00
by viper12
SAM systems were not forgotten in the U.S. during the Cold War. For example, there was literally a SAM site in L.A. : https://mrca.ca.gov/parks/park-listing/ ... tain-park/

Re: F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2019, 23:15
by sferrin
viper12 wrote:SAM systems were not forgotten in the U.S. during the Cold War. For example, there was literally a SAM site in L.A. : https://mrca.ca.gov/parks/park-listing/ ... tain-park/


"All CONUS Hercules batteries, with the exception of the ones in Florida and Alaska, were deactivated by April 1974. The remaining units were deactivated during the spring of 1979."


"In April 1972, the last Bomarc B in U.S. Air Force service was retired at McGuire and the 46th ADMS inactivated [6] and the base was deactivated."

Re: F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2019, 05:11
by knowan
sferrin wrote:
knowan wrote:
skyward wrote:The Western missiles are not similar sized to the Russian. They are smaller for the same range.


The SM-2ER/SM-6 is similar in size to the 5V55 missiles with considerably greater range, despite substantially lower velocity.

The SM-6 Block IB is in development; it will use a 21" inch motor to replace the old 13.5" diameter Mk 104 motor.
The 21" motor is likely the same as that used by the SM-3 Block IIA, and it will give a large increase to effective range; such a missile will likely out-range the 40N6.


SM-6 itself probably out ranges 40N6.


It is certainly possible, but without better data I'm not entirely confident. SM-6 Block IB will almost certainly outrange the 40N6 however; the difference between SM-3 Block IA/IB and Block IIA is more than two and a half times the interception range; the same 21" motor on the SM-6 will likely throw it beyond 600 km.



ricnunes wrote:Advanced fighter aircraft (such as the F-35 and F-22) are also part of an air defense network. Actually I cannot conceive "a world class air defense network" without having advanced fighter aircraft (again such as the F-35 or F-22).


Just look at Syria vs Israel to see how poorly an advanced SAM system does without advanced fighter aircraft. Israel hasn't even conducted a widespread DEAD campaign, yet is able to conduct strikes with minimal losses.

Re: F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2019, 08:48
by hornetfinn
With SAM systems most of the performance parameters are not necessarily readily apparent. Range, altitude and missile speed are fairly easy but can also be a bit misleading as there are multiple ways to define those parameters. They are also very small part of the overall system performances and many of those performance figures are not available in public. Things like real world radar performance (like target detection and tracking performance, EW resistance, LPI features etc), missile seeker performance, missile data link performance, network connectivity etc. There are so many things to consider that it's not very easy to compare systems from public information at all.

One example is that longer range is easily achieved by using bigger missile but they have their own drawbacks. Longer ranged S-300/400 missiles are much bigger than Patriot missiles and would be more difficult to transport and need bigger launch vehicles (or have less missiles in each). Patriot system is far more airmobile while S-300/400 might have better tactical mobility depending on exact system. There are Patriot systems installed directly on top of all-terrain trucks for example.

Re: F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2019, 18:40
by kimjongnumbaun
ricnunes wrote:
marsavian wrote:Geographically Russia has a busy often aggressive neighborhood in Europe and Asia and the most mass to defend. The US in contrast has no immediate dangerous neighbors which is probably why SAMs are low on the priority list.


Yes, I fully agree.
Basically the US Land based SAM systems are meant to defend US military bases and ground forces deployed abroad.



It’s a difference in doctrine. The soviets knew they had inferior aircraft and aircrews. They knew they couldn’t win an air war, especially in OCA. Their SAM systems are designed to compliment their Air Force because they knew we would use penetrating attacks like we did in Vietnam. It played to their strengths to fight on their turf, which is also why their doctrine focuses on GCI. That’s also why the majority of their fighters are for air superiority or intercept. They have actually very few planes capable of providing decent interdiction.

The US knew we had better planes and better pilots. We would always be on the offensive in enemy airspace. That’s why we use the AWACS. Because we knew we’d have air dominance, we focused the majority of our money developing fighters and not ground based platforms. We are much more reliant on our Air Force securing the air space.

Re: F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2019, 23:42
by wrightwing
knowan wrote:




It is certainly possible, but without better data I'm not entirely confident. SM-6 Block IB will almost certainly outrange the 40N6 however; the difference between SM-3 Block IA/IB and Block IIA is more than two and a half times the interception range; the same 21" motor on the SM-6 will likely throw it beyond 600 km.



The current SM-6 has a ~500km range as is, which outranges any S-400 missile. That advantage will only increase, with the larger motor.

Re: F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2019, 01:22
by sferrin
wrightwing wrote:
knowan wrote:




It is certainly possible, but without better data I'm not entirely confident. SM-6 Block IB will almost certainly outrange the 40N6 however; the difference between SM-3 Block IA/IB and Block IIA is more than two and a half times the interception range; the same 21" motor on the SM-6 will likely throw it beyond 600 km.



The current SM-6 has a ~500km range as is, which outranges any S-400 missile. That advantage will only increase, with the larger motor.


I've never heard 500 km. That said, one of the first SM-3 shots had a dummy 3rd stage and the booster/2nd-stage combo chucked that sucker a LONG ways. They were reading off the altitude and at 65 miles UP it was still climbing at multiple Mach. Keep in mind that was just the vertical component.

Jump to about 9:20 here:

Re: F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2019, 02:32
by SpudmanWP
The added benefit to the SM-6 is that it can benefit from endgame updates via assets in the area (F-35, F-18, etc).

Re: F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2019, 14:01
by sferrin
SpudmanWP wrote:The added benefit to the SM-6 is that it can benefit from endgame updates via assets in the area (F-35, F-18, etc).


Apparently that's the only way the 40N6 can achieve it's maximum range as well. Without somebody out front telling it where the target is it's basically just another 48N6.

Re: F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2019, 16:56
by SpudmanWP
Can the 40N6 even datalink to other assets?