F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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fbw

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Unread post28 Mar 2019, 19:35

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I find that odd, I don't think OCA is a SAM killing mission. That would be SEAD/DEAD.


SEAD/DEAD is part of OCA mission framework. OCA is a pretty broad set.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post28 Mar 2019, 19:39

I guess based on the name I figured it was more Fighter Sweep and Escort. Clearing the skies of enemy fighters ahead of an offensive push. If I pull back on scope and ask "what is the purpose of those two missions?" the answer would be "To make sure the friendly strike aircraft do not get shot down." I see how SEAD/DEAD would also be a mission that fits that answer.
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ricnunes

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Unread post28 Mar 2019, 19:43

swiss wrote:
doge wrote:"We knew we had an operating advantage, due to the 5th generation technology, but we didn't expect such a high rate of success - highlights the Major Emanuele A - in the 16 OCA missions (Offensive Counter Air) flown, against zero losses among the F-35s, we have neutralized more than 100 SAM systems ".


Awesome indeed. Would be interesting what kind of SAM we are talking about.


Yes, indeed.
However I would bet some serious money that some/many (or even most) of those SAMs would be variants of the Patriot.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post28 Mar 2019, 20:06

ricnunes wrote:
swiss wrote:
doge wrote:"We knew we had an operating advantage, due to the 5th generation technology, but we didn't expect such a high rate of success - highlights the Major Emanuele A - in the 16 OCA missions (Offensive Counter Air) flown, against zero losses among the F-35s, we have neutralized more than 100 SAM systems ".


Awesome indeed. Would be interesting what kind of SAM we are talking about.


Yes, indeed.
However I would bet some serious money that some/many (or even most) of those SAMs would be variants of the Patriot.


Probably JTE, they were developed for the purpose of simulating a variety of threats, and respond to countermeasures. Added to that the mini-mutes and all the other threat simulators they’ve been adding.

The USAF started investing in upgrades to combat training ranges to provide a more challenging environment since the addition of the F-35 and F-22.

This is from 2011 budget-

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... 04735f.pdf
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post28 Mar 2019, 20:33

fbw wrote:https://www.doctrine.af.mil/Portals/61/documents/Annex_3-01/3-01-D08-AIR-Framework.pdf

Awesome, thank you!
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Unread post28 Mar 2019, 20:36

The new ARTS series (Advanced radar threat system) should start coming online starting circa 2020 with the ARTS-V2

ARTS-V1 is PESA
ARTS-V2 is a short/medium range SAM threat emitter (L-band + EO/IR sensor)
ARTS-V3 is a longer ranger high power SAM radar emitter
ARTS-V4 is mobile tactical threat emitter

https://www.dacis.com/budget/budget_pdf ... 35F_85.pdf

Edit more recent budget-
https://www.dacis.com/budget/budget_pdf ... 35F_88.pdf
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Unread post28 Mar 2019, 21:50

ricnunes wrote:
swiss wrote:
doge wrote:"We knew we had an operating advantage, due to the 5th generation technology, but we didn't expect such a high rate of success - highlights the Major Emanuele A - in the 16 OCA missions (Offensive Counter Air) flown, against zero losses among the F-35s, we have neutralized more than 100 SAM systems ".


Awesome indeed. Would be interesting what kind of SAM we are talking about.


Yes, indeed.
However I would bet some serious money that some/many (or even most) of those SAMs would be variants of the Patriot.


That would be very likely.

@FBW: Thanks for your links. I wasn't also aware that SEAD is a part of OCA. I assume JTE can also simulate high end treats like S-300/400?
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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 00:06

fbw wrote:Probably JTE, they were developed for the purpose of simulating a variety of threats, and respond to countermeasures. Added to that the mini-mutes and all the other threat simulators they’ve been adding.

The USAF started investing in upgrades to combat training ranges to provide a more challenging environment since the addition of the F-35 and F-22.

This is from 2011 budget-

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... 04735f.pdf


Thanks for the info and link fbw :thumb:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 02:35

swiss wrote: I assume JTE can also simulate high end treats like S-300/400?


The JTE simulates SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, SA-13 and AAA threat signals which interact with the aircraft Radar Warning Receiver and Electronic Countermeasure system to provide realistic Electronic Warfare training environments for pilots and crewmembers.
Page 3 of https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... b_2016.pdf

No mention of SA-10; SA-12; SA-20 or SA-21 (aka S-400). However the ARTS series mentioned by fbw should simulate these more advanced missile systems:

The ARTS-V2 is to be a ruggedized mobile system designed to emulate radar-guided surface-to-air missile threats like the Russian-made SA-10, SA-12, and SA-20, which are built to strike at everything from low-flying drones and stealth cruise missiles to high-altitude reconnaissance airplanes and distant sensor platforms.

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/artic ... siles.html
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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 12:40

fbw wrote:The new ARTS series (Advanced radar threat system) should start coming online starting circa 2020 with the ARTS-V2

ARTS-V1 is PESA
ARTS-V2 is a short/medium range SAM threat emitter (L-band + EO/IR sensor)
ARTS-V3 is a longer ranger high power SAM radar emitter
ARTS-V4 is mobile tactical threat emitter


Thank you for the info fbw, very interesting! While USAF has all kinds of threat radar systems (including some of the very latest ones) these are likely more economical and will have more room for future improvements to keep up with threat systems. Of course buying these is also much easier than trying to acquire the real threat systems.
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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 22:00

aussiebloke wrote:
The JTE simulates SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, SA-13 and AAA threat signals which interact with the aircraft Radar Warning Receiver and Electronic Countermeasure system to provide realistic Electronic Warfare training environments for pilots and crewmembers.
Page 3 of https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... b_2016.pdf

No mention of SA-10; SA-12; SA-20 or SA-21 (aka S-400). However the ARTS series mentioned by fbw should simulate these more advanced missile systems:

The ARTS-V2 is to be a ruggedized mobile system designed to emulate radar-guided surface-to-air missile threats like the Russian-made SA-10, SA-12, and SA-20, which are built to strike at everything from low-flying drones and stealth cruise missiles to high-altitude reconnaissance airplanes and distant sensor platforms.

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/artic ... siles.html

So ARTS-V2 is not yet available? Does this mean that currently Red Flag is limited to SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, SA-13 and AAA?
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aussiebloke

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Unread post30 Mar 2019, 03:32

loke wrote:So ARTS-V2 is not yet available? Does this mean that currently Red Flag is limited to SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, SA-13 and AAA?


”ARTS-V2: FY20 funding procures one ARTS-V2 threat simulator system (which includes the radar cross section shell).”
Page 3 of https://apps.dtic.mil/procurement/Y2020 ... B_2020.pdf

“The mainstream belief is that the Tolicha Peak facility houses numerous radar systems to support RED FLAG operations, given its proximity to two mock airfields. A more detailed examination provides an alternative, that of foreign SAM system exploitation and testing. Elements of S-125 (SA-3 GOA), S-200 (SA-5 GAMMON), and S-300PS (SA-10B GRUMBLE) SAM systems can be found on the grounds of Tolicha Peak.......
The most interesting facility found at Tolicha Peak is the S-300P launch site. It would appear that a nearly complete collection of radars is present, as well as two TELs and a 40V6 mast assembly. The 40V6 is used to mount either the 5N63S (FLAP LID) engagement radar or the 76N6 (CLAM SHELL) low altitude detection radar on a 23.8 meter mast to provide better performance in areas with varied terrain or vegetation.” http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/08/us- ... sites.html

Foreign material exploitation or Red Flag or both?
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Unread post30 Mar 2019, 07:12

loke wrote:
aussiebloke wrote:
The JTE simulates SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, SA-13 and AAA threat signals which interact with the aircraft Radar Warning Receiver and Electronic Countermeasure system to provide realistic Electronic Warfare training environments for pilots and crewmembers.
Page 3 of https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... b_2016.pdf

No mention of SA-10; SA-12; SA-20 or SA-21 (aka S-400). However the ARTS series mentioned by fbw should simulate these more advanced missile systems:

The ARTS-V2 is to be a ruggedized mobile system designed to emulate radar-guided surface-to-air missile threats like the Russian-made SA-10, SA-12, and SA-20, which are built to strike at everything from low-flying drones and stealth cruise missiles to high-altitude reconnaissance airplanes and distant sensor platforms.

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/artic ... siles.html

So ARTS-V2 is not yet available? Does this mean that currently Red Flag is limited to SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, SA-13 and AAA?

S-300, Tor, Pantsyr, are among the threat systems.
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Unread post30 Mar 2019, 12:57

This 16-0 air to air record is significant for another reason: There were no F-22's partaking in this exercise...

If you'll recall, the 15-1 (or 20-1) results prior involved F-22's. There was a lot of speculation as to what extent the F-22's "helped" the F-35's. There was none of that here. Zip. Zilch. Zero.

Very strong statement indeed :)
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