F-35A at Red Flag 19-1

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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zero-one

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Unread post13 Mar 2019, 13:36

Sorry bout that, right now we have so few information about RF 19-1 besides F-35s kicked butt that everyones pretty much just passing time. Wouldn't be surprised if Roman Gladiators would be thrown to the mix.
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Unread post13 Mar 2019, 13:38

hornetfinn wrote:I think they should bring Me-262 and 8.8 cm Flak 41 guns to Red Flag next... That will surely throw off the F-35 fusion engine... :D


Me-262....hmmmmmmm
Curious, what happens when the F-35's threat library doesn't recognize the contact?
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Unread post13 Mar 2019, 14:15

zero-one wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:I think they should bring Me-262 and 8.8 cm Flak 41 guns to Red Flag next... That will surely throw off the F-35 fusion engine... :D


Me-262....hmmmmmmm
Curious, what happens when the F-35's threat library doesn't recognize the contact?


Generally speaking sensor and data fusion systems tend to go for more general recognition levels when they can't get precise data. So it might well be that the contact is shown as "small jet aircraft" or something like that as I doubt Me-262 is programmed into the threat library... :D Since Me-262 doesn't have radar (except some prototypes) or other modern systems, it might not be able to tell it's a "fighter aircraft". Even if it had that Neptun radar, F-35 would likely not be able to see it due to very low frequency used in those sets. It would be interesting to know what results EOTS imagery of Me-262 would produce in fusion engine...

I'm sure such situations occur a lot in complex environments (like Red Flag) where there is not very detailed info about targets. For example some SAM engagement radar might first be shown as just generic ground radar and then when more detailed info is collected, more precise recognizion is shown for the system. In the end it might be shown as some very spesific radar type.
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Unread post13 Mar 2019, 14:38

Was there NOT a story about 'RED FLAG' simulated radars NOT being realistic threats for the F-35? Upgrades needed - no?
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Unread post13 Mar 2019, 15:02

spazsinbad wrote:Was there NOT a story about 'RED FLAG' simulated radars NOT being realistic threats for the F-35? Upgrades needed - no?

Yes, the f-35 didn't see them as a threat and ignored them. AKA The pilot yelling kill it and the f-35 saying kill what, there's nothing there but a microwave oven.
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Unread post13 Mar 2019, 15:31

spazsinbad wrote:Was there NOT a story about 'RED FLAG' simulated radars NOT being realistic threats for the F-35? Upgrades needed - no?


Upgrades are underway:

The Nevada Test and Training Range (NTTR) began accepting Radar Signal Emulators in late CY16 to support the DOT&E-initiated Electronic Warfare Infrastructure Improvement Program (EWIIP). As of October 10, 2018, 9 of 16 emulators had been accepted on the NTTR and had been used to conduct integration testing with the F-35 and other range test assets.- The RSEs will be used to provide operationally realistic threat laydowns for use in F-35 IOT&E.

https://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY ... f35jsf.pdf

Completed system development and initiated production for the Radar Signal Emulators to provide open-loop, transmit-onlysystems that will accurately emit waveforms of threat radar systems operating in the C and S radio frequency (RF) bands.Delivered 8 of 16 Radar Signal Emulators at the Nellis AFB Test and Training Range, NV and initiated site acceptance testing.Continued production of the remaining 9 Radar Signal Emulators.

https://apps.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2 ... B_2019.pdf

The Air Force Warfare Center is developing a strategic plan to guide investment in capabilities toallow the NTTR to more accurately replicate current threat environments of our new defense posture.The Air Force is supporting these efforts through collaboration with the DoDand the Department of the Navy to develop and field the Advanced Radar Threat System version 1 (ARTS1) and Advanced Radar Threat System version 2 (ARTS2). These systems provide a more realistic training environment because they will close the gap between our current and required threat simulation capabilities.-This development effort (also known as the Electronic Warfare Infrastructure Improvement Program (EWIIP)) uses a significant portion of the approximately $550 million effort to develop and field 25 open air range threat simulators representative of advanced threat systems in the Western Pacific Region.

http://www.nttrleis.com/documents/revie ... an2014.pdf

Lockheed Martin will build the ARTS-V2 to provide threat-representative radar tracking and reaction such as acquiring, tracking, and engaging several aircraft simultaneously with representative receiver, processor, and electronic counter-countermeasures.
The system will emulate advanced anti-aircraft missile radiated power, threat signals, antenna patterns, operational modes, and threat tactics, and can send real-time radar data to the Digital Integrated Air Defense System (DIADS)-controlled threat environment at the Range Control Center (RCC). ARTS-V2 will provide multi-spectral threat representation.
The ARTS-V2 is part of the overall Advanced Radar Threat System (ARTS) project to develop and field high-fidelity threat phased array radar for live, virtual, constructive aircrew training for anti-access and area-denial environments.
ARTS will provide the advanced capabilities necessary to train aircrews in the employment of F-35 aircraft against foreign fielded live double-digit surface-to-air missile threat systems. The program consists of the strategic long-range ARTS-V1 and the tactical short-range ARTS-V2 systems. The solicitation for the ARTS-V1 system was released in January.

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/artic ... siles.html
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steve2267

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Unread post13 Mar 2019, 21:09

There was a photo and short news blurb hereabouts a little while back... something about the US taking delivery, from the Uktraine, if memory serves, of an advanced S-300 radar or some such...
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Unread post13 Mar 2019, 21:46

Thanks for the PDFs 'aussiebloke'. Yes I vaguely recall the S-300 story. Didn't the DIRE STRAITS sing about 'microwave ovens & colour TVs'? :roll: MONEY FOR NOTHING: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_for_Nothing_(song) 8)
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Unread post13 Mar 2019, 21:51

Israeli and US Military Specialists Visit Ukraine to Get Acquainted with Russian-Made S-300 Missile Systems
(Source: UA Wire; published Oct 11, 2018)

A joint US-Israeli delegation secretly visited Ukraine to acquaint themselves with several specimens of important weaponry, including an S-300 anti-air defense system, Vietnamese news portal Soha News reports.

According to the article, Ukrainian specialists explained to delegation members the tactical and technical characteristics of the S-300 in Ukraine’s possession, and suggested that American and Israeli fighter jets be sent to Ukraine in order to test the system’s capabilities.

Responding to the threat of Russian anti-air defense systems in Syria, the US dispatched 18 fourth-generation F-15C Eagle fighters to Ukraine, and Israel sent several pilots, who were able to test the S-300’s capabilities using the American aircraft.

The article also notes that Ukraine previously sent the US a 36D6M1-1 mobile radar station, the technology of which is used in the S-300. The Ukrainian specialists are confident that the characteristics of the surface-to-air missile systems in Ukraine’s possession do not differ significantly from those of the modified S-300PMU2 system which Russia sent to Syria.

The analysis of the S-300’s capabilities in conjunction with Ukraine has reportedly convinced the Israeli military leaders that the Syrian S-300s will not pose a threat to Israel’s fifth-generation F-35 Lightning II stealth fighters.

Soha News emphasizes that Moscow is greatly displeased at Kyiv’s actions, which weaken Damascus’s military capabilities. On the other hand, it is not hard to understand any initiatives by Ukraine against Russia, since Ukraine considers Russia its archenemy.

American F-15C Eagles first arrived in Ukraine on October 6. Kyiv and Washington both state that the planes will be used in the Clear Sky 2018 international military exercise. Eight NATO member-states and Ukraine will take part in the drills.

Israeli Regional Cooperation Minister Tzachi Hanegbi said that the capabilities of the S-300 have long been taken into account in Israel’s strategic planning.

Russia recently sent four S-300 systems to Syria. The decision was prompted by an incident in which a Russian Il-20 reconnaissance aircraft was shot down by friendly Syrian fire from an S-200 system. The Syrian anti-air defense systems were trying to shoot down an attacking Israeli F-16 Fighting Falcon. Russia believes that the S-300 will improve the Syrian government’s defense.

The three-coordinate centimeter band 36D6M1-1 radar station is designed to detect, identify and escort airborne targets at intermediate and low altitudes under conditions of intensive active and passive jamming by the enemy. The radar is produced by the Ukrainian scientific and production complex “Iskra”. The latest upgrade to the station, which was sent to the US in December 2017, enables it to detect stealth targets. The shipment of the radar to the US was opposed by the Innovative Technologies Company, which, according to Ukraine, represents Russian interests.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/196736/israel_us-team-visits-ukraine-for-data-on-russian_made-s_300-sam.html


U.S. Army receives 3D mobile air-defense radar system from Ukraine
Sep 2, 2018

According to the ImportGenius website that tracks the import/export activity at shipping docks, the U.S. Army Contracting Command received the 3D mobile air-defense radar system from Ukraine.

The notice by the ImportGenius said that the U.S. Army Contracting Command center in Orlando has received 3D mobile air-defense radar system, called the 36D6M1-1, from Ukraine through SFTC “Progress”.

The 36D6M1-1is a mobile 3D airspace surveillance radar system that was developed by the SE “Scientific and Production Complex “Iskra” and is designed to be used as a part of modern automated Air Defense systems, Anti-Aircraft Missile Complexes and to detect low flying air targets under active and passive jamming as well as to provide Air Traffic Control both for military and civil purpose.

However, it is expected that the Ukrainian-made 3D mobile air-defense radar system could be used for technologies analysis and operational OPFOR training.

< ...more at the jump...>


https://defence-blog.com/army/u-s-army-receives-3d-mobile-air-defense-radar-system-from-ukraine.html


One other link found for the curious: https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018/09/03/573055/US-Tin-shield-3d-radar-ukraine
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Unread post14 Mar 2019, 08:14

I think you will find that there is a joint US/AU site being rolled out in northern australia. That is like the Nevada Test and Training Range (NTTR), only EW on a larger scale.
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Unread post14 Mar 2019, 09:42

Very interesting steve2267, thank you for the info.

Here is the Ukrainian Iskra company webpage which has nice info about their products along with interesting videos. It gives interesting view to potential threat systems in Red Flags and also in actual combat scenarios.

https://iskra.zp.ua/index.php?option=co ... 08&lang=en

36D6M video:

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Unread post14 Mar 2019, 09:45

optimist wrote:I think you will find that there is a joint US/AU site being rolled out in northern australia. That is like the Nevada Test and Training Range (NTTR), only EW on a larger scale.

Yes. There is info about this on the Oz pages (somewhere): [one page PDF of article attached]
GROWLER DOWN UNDER
Nov 2015 Brad Elward

"...In addition to the Growlers, the RAAF is creating a Mobile Threat Training Emitter System (MTTES) at Amberley and at the expansive Delamere Air Weapons Range (DELAWR) in Australia’s Northern Territory to support electronic warfare training. Both ranges will utilize a combination of radio frequency (RF) emissions to simulate radars and communications systems that can then be targeted for electronic attack and suppression of enemy air defense training. Australia plans to model the DELAWR range on the US Navy’s electronic warfare range at NAS Fallon, Nevada. Two additional enhanced simulators are being installed at Amberley, which will enable crews to simulate either the Growler
or Super Hornet mission...." viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24027&p=304183&hilit=Delamere#p304183

Source: Combat Aircraft Monthly Nov 2015

"...The December 2014 approval of MTTES will provide the ability for in-country EA-18G aircrew training through establishment of EW training range capabilities in the Amberley Western Training Area and at Delamere in the Northern Territory. Establishment of these ranges will ensure EA-18G aircrew can train effectively without needing frequent deployments to use United States electronic combat ranges for skills development. The Delamere range in particular will provide opportunities for other ADF units and visiting forces for high-end EW training...." + MOAR
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=52254&p=391253&hilit=Delamere#p391253

YEEHAH for a billion woids: viewtopic.php?f=57&t=52723&p=361957&hilit=Delamere#p361957
&
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=29165&p=319252&hilit=Delamere#p319252
Attachments
GROWLER DOWN UNDER Nov 2015 Brad Elward - Threat Emitters PRN.pdf
(46.8 KiB) Downloaded 86 times
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Unread post14 Mar 2019, 15:00

Salute!

Remember, folks, our weasels and EC-xxx dudes routinely try to get brand "X" systems to come up and take a look.

That's why they wouldn't let us use the new radar modes in the 106 and 101 at certain times of day - bad guy satellites overhead. We had that hydraulically tuned maggie and it was approaching the spread spectrum stuff we now have, but used analog and mechanical stuff. AsI recalled earlier, we had buffs at Grand Forks and we could both practice together on training flights. The Buff EWO's told us that when we went to "Fast Min" it looked like static. "Fast Max" looked like background noise. Hell, "Normal" mode spread out the freq about 1 Mhz, The "fast" tuning actually went from one end of our tuning and started back before the next pulse. So it looked like random noise and not a coherent emitter signal. And this was in the mid 60's, fellows. Along with our IRSTS that we coulod use to slave the radar.

BTW, a few years back the Stubbie folks here complained about their threat library not showing up simulators. However, they didn't mind it screening out Channel 7 News Doppler Weather Radar, fishing boat radars, and police radar guns, heh heh. I can just see it now on my display coming off RWY 01, "FHP cruiser at 85/I-10 intersection, engage?" "no, R2D2, let him live". LOL

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Unread post14 Mar 2019, 23:30

Gums wrote:Salute!

Remember, folks, our weasels and EC-xxx dudes routinely try to get brand "X" systems to come up and take a look.

That's why they wouldn't let us use the new radar modes in the 106 and 101 at certain times of day - bad guy satellites overhead. We had that hydraulically tuned maggie and it was approaching the spread spectrum stuff we now have, but used analog and mechanical stuff. AsI recalled earlier, we had buffs at Grand Forks and we could both practice together on training flights. The Buff EWO's told us that when we went to "Fast Min" it looked like static. "Fast Max" looked like background noise. Hell, "Normal" mode spread out the freq about 1 Mhz, The "fast" tuning actually went from one end of our tuning and started back before the next pulse. So it looked like random noise and not a coherent emitter signal. And this was in the mid 60's, fellows. Along with our IRSTS that we coulod use to slave the radar.

BTW, a few years back the Stubbie folks here complained about their threat library not showing up simulators. However, they didn't mind it screening out Channel 7 News Doppler Weather Radar, fishing boat radars, and police radar guns, heh heh. I can just see it now on my display coming off RWY 01, "FHP cruiser at 85/I-10 intersection, engage?" "no, R2D2, let him live". LOL

Gums sends...

.

You know, all of that “ignore to civilian stuff” is probably really handy once you start talking urban warfare.
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Unread post15 Mar 2019, 15:35

Salute!

You got it, Count.

Not only that, but when the Earth was still cooling our original speed "gate" for the Viper radar had to be raised. This showeed itself worst when the jets went to Europe and flew over the Autobahn. a zillion targets showed up when looking down!! Our problemin Utah was I-84 and speedo folks. But only those zooming along ten or fifteen MPH over the limit. So they had to raise the "ignore" speed. Helos were still not a problem due to the spinning rotors, but I guess zeppelins with cloth envelopes, eagle feather control surfaces and balsa frames might be trouble.

So look for funny things in next RF besides the chariots

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