What post stall maneuvers can F-35 perform ?

garrya · by **garrya** » 19 Jan 2019, 04:53

Apart from the usual offensive spiral (pedal turn) that we often see it perform, what other post-stall maneuver is in its bag of trick?

Can F-35 perform the Kulbiz ?

How about the famous Cobra?

How about Herbst maneuver

steve2267 · by **steve2267** » 19 Jan 2019, 05:29

The Herbst Maneuver / J-turn / pedal turn (what people are not calling a flat spin) are all related or variations on a theme. I think they are also related to a post-stall velocity vector roll.

I believe in LM video footage of high alpha testing, the F-35 performs a pretty impressive tail slide / flip. That would be "post-stall" too, wouldn't it? I am guessing that it can, therefore, perform a hammerhead.

Personally, I don't care about a Cobra, as I really don't think there is any combat utility to that maneuver, or so I have read from studs that have been there, done that. I wonder, though, about a post-stall pitch to a 90° pitch change followed by a rapid yaw/roll left or right with plenty of smash to get out of that wee bit of airspace which may shortly be occupied by bullets.

steve2267 · by **steve2267** » 19 Jan 2019, 05:54

Controlled 70kt slow flight powering out to a pure, vertical climb.

steve2267 · by **steve2267** » 19 Jan 2019, 06:07

I don't think the F-35 can perform the Kulbitz or the Cobra with the present 3F CLAW.

I suspect it could perform those maneuvers rather easily, if the CLAW was relaxed, given the size and moment arm of the rear stabs, and with the twin vertical tails for directional control. Hell, the F-35 might be able to perform those in a slow-motion, controlled-throughout manner, rather than the Sukhoi ballistic motion... but that is a pretty big swag on my part.

I also strongly suspect that the F-35, when at its max alpha (of around 55°; "we can go to max alpha and the plane is very happy to just sit there, and we can swing the nose around, left and right... wooop... wooop...")... if you command roll via left / right stick, you get a Herbst / J-turn. If you command left/right nose via the pedals, you get the so-called pedal turn (aka "flat spin").

The Sukhoi appeared to have to dive as part of its recovery after the nose came back down as the Cobra finished. If CLAW was relaxed enabling the Lightning to also perform the Cobra, I suspect as the nose comes down, the Lightning could simply power up and immediately transition into a vertical climbout the way Dojo demonstrated in recently posted videos of his Heritage Flight 2019 practice routine. Jon Beesley, retired LM F-35 test pilot, noted that the Russian planes have to go to idle during those maneuvers lest one engine fail and they yaw it into the ground. The F135 seems to be more than able to immediately power the Lightning into a vertical climbout. That's pretty impressive.

sprstdlyscottsmn · by **sprstdlyscottsmn** » 19 Jan 2019, 06:16

In CLAW testing they turned off the limiters (test aircraft feature only) and went to 110 AoA (cobra) with external weapons

steve2267 · by **steve2267** » 19 Jan 2019, 06:40

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:In CLAW testing they turned off the limiters (test aircraft feature only) and went to 110 AoA (cobra) with external weapons

There ya go.

Sprts... any idea if video of that particular flight test point is floating around anywhere?

garrya · by **garrya** » 19 Jan 2019, 07:16

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:In CLAW testing they turned off the limiters (test aircraft feature only) and went to 110 AoA (cobra) with external weapons

Are you referring to this video:

Isn't it look more like F-35 simply falling down?

garrya · by **garrya** » 19 Jan 2019, 07:27

There was some rumor that F-35 was going to perform the Cobra maneuver in Paris,

: Capture.PNG (165.96 KiB) Viewed 14672 times

but then it didn't and perform the offensive spiral instead

: 1.PNG (159.11 KiB) Viewed 14672 times

doge · by **doge** » 19 Jan 2019, 08:36

How is this? (What is this maneuver called? I’m not sure... :oops:

For me it looks like a maneuver close to post-stall.)
It's a low altitude, very slow speed maneuver, When I see it, I’m feel uneasy, thrilled... :shock:

Original(4:00-) https://youtu.be/e9UXfUo9Nws (It's F-35A of the Japan Air Self-Defense Force)

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 19 Jan 2019, 10:02

I heard a rumour that the saying is BUNT BUNT YOU SILLY OLD …. a not very comfortable negative G but impressive. :roll:

sprstdlyscottsmn · by **sprstdlyscottsmn** » 19 Jan 2019, 14:05

garrya wrote:
Isn't it look more like F-35 simply falling down?

That looks like the video. Nothing simple about testing to over twice the max trimmed AoA with externals.

garrya · by **garrya** » 19 Jan 2019, 15:07

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:That looks like the video. Nothing simple about testing to over twice the max trimmed AoA with externals.

I meant i understand that F-35 is going to extreme AoA to slow itself down in that video (which is what cobra essentially is) but isn't it easier to pin your nose back from extreme AoA to low AoA if you are pointing down at the ground? I meant normal Cobra is performed when aircraft fly horizontally, so may be it is harder to do it that way? Or are they the same?

optimist · by **optimist** » 19 Jan 2019, 16:13

garrya wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:In CLAW testing they turned off the limiters (test aircraft feature only) and went to 110 AoA (cobra) with external weapons

Are you referring to this video:

Isn't it look more like F-35 simply falling down?

That is still my favourite video. There is a difference between falling down and controlled falling down :mrgreen:

The cobra is a RU airshow trick. There is a lot written about it and how it is done. You may find, a plane on a mission is unable to do it and the SU actually has a lower effective AoA than the fa18/f22/f35.

This is the old flight control system of the fa-18 doing an uncontrolled falling leaf. They lost a few with this

and the f-16 losing it

garrya · by **garrya** » 20 Jan 2019, 08:29

doge wrote:How is this? (What is this maneuver called? I’m not sure... For me it looks like a maneuver close to post-stall.)
It's a low altitude, very slow speed maneuver, When I see it, I’m feel uneasy, thrilled...
Original(4:00-) https://youtu.be/e9UXfUo9Nws (It's F-35A of the Japan Air Self-Defense Force)

That look like the start of a tail slide maneuver
Apparently this is how it could be used in combat:

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 20 Jan 2019, 09:33

"Apparently" is correct. Just like the 'Cobra' the graphic is fantasy. Let us just say the 'wise old attacker' just hoses the dumb 'tail slide cobra guy' out of the sky whilst said guy is just bleedin' helpless. Game over. No radar lock on required.

Some PUGGYstuffyCobby: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=24622&p=260547&hilit=cobra+lock#p260547

And so the dogfight returns through the doggydoor - WHO LET THE DOGS OUT!? Who Who WHOwhoo!?