Israel Attacks Syria with F-16s and F-35s

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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post26 Dec 2018, 22:39

Israeli F-16 firing Delilah missiles; F35 in 2nd wave

https://www.jforum.fr/les-f-16-israelie ... vague.html
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spazsinbad

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Unread post27 Dec 2018, 00:32

Israeli F-16 firing Delilah missiles; F35 in 2nd wave [from 'kimjongnumbaun' URL above]
26 Dec 2018 Marc

"...US military sources revealed that the Israeli air offensive on Tuesday night, December 25, was fought by IAF F-16I fighters (Israeli Air Force) firing Delilah cruise missiles from space Lebanese air to Syria. Damascus reportedly countered part of the attack with Russian air defense weapons Pantsir-S2 and S-200 SAM. These highly credible sources also reveal that the Israeli attack targeted Syrian military sites, not Iranian and Hezbollah targets, as previously reported in Israel and Damascus. The Israeli government and military leaders have apparently decided, US sources say, to take advantage of the chaos created by President Donald Trump's decision to withdraw US troops from Syria and the threat of Ankara to send the Turkish army invade the Euphrates.

After the F-16 jets failed to connect to all their targets, the IDF sent the F-35 stealth aircraft in a second wave…."

Source: https://translate.google.com/translate? ... vague.html FROM: https://www.jforum.fr/les-f-16-israelie ... vague.html
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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charlielima223

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Unread post27 Dec 2018, 03:41

What do they mean by
failed to connect to all their targets

?
Were they deterred by air defenses? Were the weapons used shot down by air defenses?

Of course the big question is; what did the F-35s do?

As a side note I think the decision to leave Syria and even worse still, abandon the Kurds is a FUCKT**DED DECISION. The Kurds are one of the very very few real Allies we have in the region. Leaving them out to dry is politically, tactically, and morally abhorrent. After this who are the Kurds going to side with? Who are they going to trust? They've been abandoned multiple times by the west and are persecuted by everyone in the region EXCEPT by Israel. Turkey is not our ally and never was. We should cease all arms sales/agreements with Turkey and petition to give them the boot from NATO.
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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post27 Dec 2018, 04:45

charlielima223 wrote:What do they mean by
failed to connect to all their targets

?
Were they deterred by air defenses? Were the weapons used shot down by air defenses?

Of course the big question is; what did the F-35s do?

As a side note I think the decision to leave Syria and even worse still, abandon the Kurds is a FUCKT**DED DECISION. The Kurds are one of the very very few real Allies we have in the region. Leaving them out to dry is politically, tactically, and morally abhorrent. After this who are the Kurds going to side with? Who are they going to trust? They've been abandoned multiple times by the west and are persecuted by everyone in the region EXCEPT by Israel. Turkey is not our ally and never was. We should cease all arms sales/agreements with Turkey and petition to give them the boot from NATO.


Reports say that most of the cruise missiles fired by the F-16s were intercepted by ADA. The F-35s probably attacked from profiles that limited the ADA to intercept any of the attacks.

While it sucks that we're potentially leaving the Kurds, supporting them over Turkey does not seem likely. Turkey actually has a country and our support of the Kurds means that we would need to build them up as a nation to make it worthwhile. Doing that is definitely going to push Turkey into the Russian Sphere. It'd be equivalent to the UK supporting Al Qaeda and then wondering why we don't think they're our friends.

The US has also just declared energy independence. Long term, I don't see the US wanting to get involved in the middle east as our energy reserves are secure.
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Unread post27 Dec 2018, 06:18

I seriously doubt the issue was missiles being intercepted. It was more likely that the F-16s couldn't get close enough.
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Unread post27 Dec 2018, 07:18

Either just makes a case for the F-35..... :twisted:
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Unread post27 Dec 2018, 08:35

charlielima223 wrote:The Kurds are one of the very very few real Allies we have in the region. Leaving them out to dry is politically, tactically, and morally abhorrent. After this who are the Kurds going to side with?


What were they promised? A State? No, of course not. An Alliance? No, they aren't a State. They fought to defend their families and the US helped them destroy their enemies, and anything else which they presumed to be material or to be 'owed' them, as a result, is simply BS. The US acted as it should have throughout, including the leaving part. If the manner of the leaving is the quibble, or it seems shambolic etc., remember that Trump said he was not going to telegraph his moves in advance? So all bases are covered by his decision as I see it, some people just disagree. Venting does not clarify, it just muddies.

Back to topic.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post27 Dec 2018, 08:45

element1loop wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:The Kurds are one of the very very few real Allies we have in the region. Leaving them out to dry is politically, tactically, and morally abhorrent. After this who are the Kurds going to side with?


What were they promised? A State? No, of course not. An Alliance? No, they aren't a State. They fought to defend their families and the US helped them destroy their enemies, and anything else which they presumed to be material or to be 'owed' them, as a result, is simply BS. The US acted as it should have throughout, including the leaving part. If the manner of the leaving is the quibble, or it seems shambolic etc., remember that Trump said he was not going to telegraph his moves in advance? So all bases are covered by his decision as I see it, some people just disagree. Venting does not clarify, it just muddies.

Back to topic.


Honestly, I doubt anybody here really knows what the US promised the Kurds. As for Trump don't get me going..... :shock:

Back to topic.... :wink:
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Unread post27 Dec 2018, 09:54

kimjongnumbaun wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:What do they mean by
failed to connect to all their targets

?
Were they deterred by air defenses? Were the weapons used shot down by air defenses?

Of course the big question is; what did the F-35s do?


Reports say that most of the cruise missiles fired by the F-16s were intercepted by ADA. The F-35s probably attacked from profiles that limited the ADA to intercept any of the attacks.


Maybe they used Delilah missiles (and/or maybe target drones) to get Syrian ADA to react and F-35s were used to collect ISTAR data about their operation and where they are. That's where F-35 really excels at and would be really useful for that and any future operations. F-35s might also be used for assessing effects of Delilah attacks. Naturally F-35s could also be used to give EW/EA support for that operation.

F-35s could possibly also guide the weapons or use their own weapons to kill targets that survived or could not be engaged with Delilahs. They might also have used missiles as baits for Syrian ADA and F-35s were really there to do the actual attacks.
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knowan

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Unread post27 Dec 2018, 11:01

Russia is claiming only 6 F-16s were used in the strike, and they launched 16 GBU-39 SDBs, with 14 being intercepted. And somehow the remaining 2 SDBs managed to hit targets in 4 different locations.

Russian claims are, as always, almost certainly total bullshit. If F-35s were used in the strike they probably wouldn't even know it.
And only 16 SDBs between 6 F-16s? That's a rather low bombload, given each plane would likely be carrying 8.


https://www.newsweek.com/russia-israel- ... es-1271445
Russian Defense Ministry spokesperson General Igor Konashenkov said, "The provocative actions of the Israeli Air Force on the evening of December 25, when six F-16 aircraft in the airspace of neighboring Lebanon launched an air strike on Syrian territory, created a direct threat to two passenger aircraft," according to the Interfax News Agency. He did not specify which flights were put at risk, but said they were not Russian-operated and that one was landing in the Syrian capital of Damascus, while the other was landing in the Lebanese capital of Beirut.

"To prevent a tragedy, Syrian government forces imposed restrictions on the use of air defense and electronic warfare, which allowed air traffic controllers in Damascus to take a passenger plane from a dangerous area and send it to the alternate Hmeymim airfield," Konashenkov said, referring to a military air base leased by Moscow in the Syrian coastal province of Latakia.

Still, the official said that Syrian air defenses managed to intercept 14 out of the 16 GBU-39 guided bombs used in the Christmas Day strikes.


I'm also amused that 4th gen aircraft were able to get within the 110 km range of the GBU-39 to launch their weapons, without any being shot down by the Syrian S-300PMU-2.
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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post27 Dec 2018, 11:44

hornetfinn wrote:Maybe they used Delilah missiles (and/or maybe target drones) to get Syrian ADA to react and F-35s were used to collect ISTAR data about their operation and where they are. That's where F-35 really excels at and would be really useful for that and any future operations. F-35s might also be used for assessing effects of Delilah attacks. Naturally F-35s could also be used to give EW/EA support for that operation.

F-35s could possibly also guide the weapons or use their own weapons to kill targets that survived or could not be engaged with Delilahs. They might also have used missiles as baits for Syrian ADA and F-35s were really there to do the actual attacks.


Good commentary on other explanations!

I found this and it was particularly interesting. Apparently many of the Syrian missiles "malfunctioned" and ended up coming back at them. Possibly the F-35 doing its electronic attack?

"Video of an S-125 Air Defence missile impacting a small building just outside Damascus after malfunctioning, this happened numerous times to Syrian Air Defence missile tonight"

Video in the twitter link.

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/10 ... 5752819712
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Unread post27 Dec 2018, 14:19

knowan wrote:I'm also amused that 4th gen aircraft were able to get within the 110 km range of the GBU-39 to launch their weapons, without any being shot down by the Syrian S-300PMU-2.

Equally amusing = good luck with financial calculus of using SAM resources to intercept SDBs.
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knowan

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Unread post27 Dec 2018, 15:21

kimjongnumbaun wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:Maybe they used Delilah missiles (and/or maybe target drones) to get Syrian ADA to react and F-35s were used to collect ISTAR data about their operation and where they are. That's where F-35 really excels at and would be really useful for that and any future operations. F-35s might also be used for assessing effects of Delilah attacks. Naturally F-35s could also be used to give EW/EA support for that operation.

F-35s could possibly also guide the weapons or use their own weapons to kill targets that survived or could not be engaged with Delilahs. They might also have used missiles as baits for Syrian ADA and F-35s were really there to do the actual attacks.


Good commentary on other explanations!

I found this and it was particularly interesting. Apparently many of the Syrian missiles "malfunctioned" and ended up coming back at them. Possibly the F-35 doing its electronic attack?

"Video of an S-125 Air Defence missile impacting a small building just outside Damascus after malfunctioning, this happened numerous times to Syrian Air Defence missile tonight"

Video in the twitter link.

https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/10 ... 5752819712


I think something went wrong with the second SAM launch in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8vXBi2Sjsg

Looks like the missile kept flying, so I'm guessing the booster blew up.
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knowan

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Unread post27 Dec 2018, 15:58

squirrelshoes wrote:
knowan wrote:I'm also amused that 4th gen aircraft were able to get within the 110 km range of the GBU-39 to launch their weapons, without any being shot down by the Syrian S-300PMU-2.

Equally amusing = good luck with financial calculus of using SAM resources to intercept SDBs.


I think Israel likely used a lot more than just SDBs, given this:

Image
Image

That puts the craters at about 40 feet in diameter; IIRC 500 lb GP bombs typically produce about 30 feet in diameter while 2000 lb GP bombers produce craters about 50 feet in diameter, depending on terrain type.
There's just no way those were 250 lb class SDB strikes, likely 500-1000 lb or bigger.

EDIT: SDBs actually have less blast effect than a 250 lb GP bomb like the Mark 81; they only have 16 kg of explosive filler versus 44 kg for the Mark 81.
There's just no way SDBs caused 40 foot diameter craters like that.


More satellite photos of targets:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/photos-sa ... -in-syria/
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-new ... -1.6786401
Last edited by knowan on 27 Dec 2018, 16:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post27 Dec 2018, 16:06

squirrelshoes wrote:
knowan wrote:I'm also amused that 4th gen aircraft were able to get within the 110 km range of the GBU-39 to launch their weapons, without any being shot down by the Syrian S-300PMU-2.

Equally amusing = good luck with financial calculus of using SAM resources to intercept SDBs.


You'd have to include the cost of losses incurred of not hard-killing them though.

In which case an SDB looks like a smart choice.
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