Q&A session with an F-35C naval aviator

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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bring_it_on

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Unread post20 Dec 2018, 04:51

Answer: I haven't fought that many different types of planes in BFM. You'll find that a typical fighter pilot hasn’t gone up against the entire Jane's catalogue of fighters.


A sharp contrast to those in the basement dweller community :mrgreen:
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quicksilver

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Unread post20 Dec 2018, 05:29

steve2267 wrote:Zero, what is it with you and dogfighting? Whenever someone mentions, or you somehow interpret what someone knowledgeable about the F-35 said, even hints that the F-35 is not el supremo at dogfighting, you seem to pop rivets. Give it a rest and join everyone else in the 5th generation.


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quicksilver

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Unread post20 Dec 2018, 05:33

steve2267 wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Even this guy said Hornet to just fly around, Lightning to go downtown.


When former Bug drivers are quoted exclaiming, “It’s like a Hornet with FOUR motors” or “It’s like a Hornet with a TURBO!”, it makes me wonder why the Reddit pilot, or any Bug or Rhino driver would pick the old plane for tooling around in. Maybe it’s a familiarity or first love thing. Maybe the Hornet cockpit is more comfortable (easier in which to pee, anyway.). Or perhaps flight control “feel.” A number of pilots have remarked about how great ergonomics are in the Hornet... so maybe the pilot interface is a little more “natural.” But none of these areas have been noted as “peeves” by Lightning drivers, not that I recall anyway.


Most fighter guys I know love most what they loved first. Doesn’t mean it’s the best at everything forever, it’s just like the pet you grew up/came of age with.
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quicksilver

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Unread post20 Dec 2018, 05:38

f-16adf wrote:It shouldn't come as a shock to the system that not every ex F-16 and F-18 guy if when asked would rather BFM or hot dog around in their old mount or the F-35, doesn't pick the F-35. No new revelation here......

The more important question is: Which jet would you rather go to war in. And I bet the overwhelming majority if not ALL will pick the -35.


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popcorn

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Unread post20 Dec 2018, 05:51

This...
Custom Image 20122018112124.jpg
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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ricnunes

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Unread post20 Dec 2018, 16:53

steve2267 wrote:When former Bug drivers are quoted exclaiming, “It’s like a Hornet with FOUR motors” or “It’s like a Hornet with a TURBO!”, it makes me wonder why the Reddit pilot, or any Bug or Rhino driver would pick the old plane for tooling around in. Maybe it’s a familiarity or first love thing. Maybe the Hornet cockpit is more comfortable (easier in which to pee, anyway.). Or perhaps flight control “feel.” A number of pilots have remarked about how great ergonomics are in the Hornet... so maybe the pilot interface is a little more “natural.” But none of these areas have been noted as “peeves” by Lightning drivers, not that I recall anyway.


Or maybe it's just and simply a "nostalgia" thing.
Similar to those guys who prefer to drive for fun an old Cadillac (or some other car from that era) this despite any equivalent modern car being better in everything, including in every part or envelop of the performance.


Regarding the F-35 and "designed for dogfight", I must admit that I was always and still am puzzled when I read or hear when someone says that the "F-35 wasn't designed for dogfight". This regarding being an aircraft (F-35) which was designed to combine the agility of the F-16 with the agility of the F/A-18. IMO, any aircraft with these agility requirement was obviously designed for having a dogfight capability in mind. (Now, I obviously agree that this is probably the least important of the F-35's capabilities).
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Dragon029

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Unread post20 Dec 2018, 16:57

ricnunes wrote:Regarding the F-35 and "designed for dogfight", I must admit that I was always and still am puzzled when I read or hear when someone says that the "F-35 wasn't designed for dogfight".


That isn't the terminology the pilot used though.
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ricnunes

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Unread post20 Dec 2018, 17:02

Dragon029 wrote:
ricnunes wrote:Regarding the F-35 and "designed for dogfight", I must admit that I was always and still am puzzled when I read or hear when someone says that the "F-35 wasn't designed for dogfight".


That isn't the terminology the pilot used though.


Yes, you're right.
I admit that with my last paragraph above I digressed from what the pilot mentioned (and got into the old "F-35 wasn't designed for dogfight" topic/discussion).

Or resuming, only my first paragraph was directed/my comment to what the pilot actually said.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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f-16adf

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Unread post20 Dec 2018, 18:05

There is a difference between "not being designed to dog-fight" and being "the best dog-fighter". The F-35 came out of the JSF progam. (Joint STRIKE FIGHTER). So obviously for the fighter aspect it had to include close in attributes as well as BVR.

I spoke with 2 F-35 pilots from Eglin last summer. I asked them "is it fair to conclude that the F-35 is part Hornet and part Viper close in?" The one guy basically said, "yes, that is a reasonable assessment." However, being part Hornet/Viper doesn't make it the best BFM jet. The one pilot said that Air to Air it doesn't compare to the F-22. Now, you guys can think I'm full of s**t, I really don't care. Go ask some F-35 pilots the same question next summer to calm your nerves down.

And I seriously do not get the big deal if the Navy Aviator said he liked to "rage in the Hornet" better. So what?


You know, if that jet in the near future does ACM against the euros and somehow inadvertently ends up in a Rafale or Typhoon HUD gun camera; are you guys going to start dropping from heart attacks? Let it go-
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ricnunes

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Unread post20 Dec 2018, 22:53

f-16adf wrote:I spoke with 2 F-35 pilots from Eglin last summer. I asked them "is it fair to conclude that the F-35 is part Hornet and part Viper close in?" The one guy basically said, "yes, that is a reasonable assessment." However, being part Hornet/Viper doesn't make it the best BFM jet. The one pilot said that Air to Air it doesn't compare to the F-22. Now, you guys can think I'm full of s**t, I really don't care. Go ask some F-35 pilots the same question next summer to calm your nerves down.


According to your own logic, just because the F-22 is better (or a better dogfighter) than the F-35 (and I guess that no-one here disagrees with this) nothing prevents the F-35 from being better than all other fighter aircraft (dogfight wise).

It's funny that you mention "Go ask some F-35 pilots". There's a well known article from a Norwegian pilot (Maj Morten “Dolby” Hanche) which basically states that the F-35 is superior to the F-16 in dogfight and if we read carefully this same report/article the reason seem to be because of exactly the fact that the F-35 combines the F-16 energy/acceleration with the F/A-18 High AoA.
So, what some/many have been posting here is also based on "what pilots say", you know?

And seriously, I didn't see anyone here having a "nerve breakdown". Actually the only one closest to having an actual "nerve breakdown" in this thread seems to be you :wink:


f-16adf wrote:And I seriously do not get the big deal if the Navy Aviator said he liked to "rage in the Hornet" better. So what?


And again liking the "rage better in the Hornet" doesn't mean that the Hornet is a better dogfighter - it's actually very, very far from it.
Someone posted an excellent comparison example between the F-104 and the F-4.

Other excellent example is that the pilot mentioned in this thread still isn't used or has the same/similar experience with the F-35C that he already has with the Hornet.


f-16adf wrote:You know, if that jet in the near future does ACM against the euros and somehow inadvertently ends up in a Rafale or Typhoon HUD gun camera; are you guys going to start dropping from heart attacks? Let it go-


Err no. We all seem to agree (including the pilot on mentioned in this thread) that the F-22 is the best dogfighter here however the F-22 did end up in the HUD gun camera of a Super Hornet. Does this mean that the Super Hornet is a better dogfighter than a F-22? Obviously not!

P.S- I'm also a big of the Hornet (Legacy and Super Hornet). But claiming that the Hornet is a better dogfighter than the F-35 is IMO very far from the truth.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post21 Dec 2018, 07:12

Worth noting that the F-35C is noticeably worse than the F-35A (and B) in acceleration, which may be something the F-35C pilot has a problem with.
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Unread post21 Dec 2018, 14:43

Ricnunes,

1. Read carefully what I said. I never concluded the Hornet is a better dog-fighter than the F-35. I said "who cares" if this Naval aviator said that he would rather hot dog or rage in the Hornet.

"Question: Out of everything that you've flown, what is the most fun to fly?
Answer: The most fun I would say is the Legacy Hornet. Just a blue collar working man’s jet, super snappy, super agile, she'll do anything you ask of her!"



https://www.reddit.com/r/F35Lightning/c ... 35c_naval/



So go argue with the Navy aviator, not me. I just quoted his words.



2. It is a near absurd assertion by people to conclude that EVERY former teen series pilot MUST AGREE on that the F-35 is the absolute best jet within the 3-9 mark. I have news for you, the overwhelming majority do like it the most, but not all.



3. Just because a jet combines attributes of the F-16/F-18 doesn't make it the best dog-fighter. That was the reason why I use the euro ACM example. I also used it because the anti F-35 crowd will be the first to buttress it against supporters of the jet. AGAIN, SAYING IT CAN'T DOG-FIGHT, AND IT WAS A MISTAKE. ALL W/O KNOWING THE ROE. Remember the AdA Rafale supposed "kill" on the F-22 and the uproar from that? With the F-35, the reaction will be far worse.




4. "Err no. We all seem to agree (including the pilot on mentioned in this thread) that the F-22 is the best dogfighter here however the F-22 did end up in the HUD gun camera of a Super Hornet. Does this mean that the Super Hornet is a better dogfighter than a F-22? Obviously not!

P.S- I'm also a big of the Hornet (Legacy and Super Hornet). But claiming that the Hornet is a better dogfighter than the F-35 is IMO very far from the truth."



The Eglin pilot said the F-22 is a better A-A jet than the F-35, not me. Also, a former F-22 "demo" pilot told me the like back in 2017. You can go argue with them-


I don't care if it ended up in the HUD of a Hornet. The point is (as being used as an example) if the F-35 does end up in the HUD of a Rafale, are you guys going go to the ends of the earth to try and dissuade the anti- F-35 crowd (Sprey and every troglodyte with a keyboard) about the matter? That is what I implied-



I never said the Hornet is a better dog-fighter than the F-35.


Here is what I said:


"It shouldn't come as a shock to the system that not every ex F-16 and F-18 guy if when asked would rather BFM or hot dog around in their old mount or the F-35, doesn't pick the F-35. No new revelation here......

The more important question is: Which jet would you rather go to war in. And I bet the overwhelming majority if not ALL will pick the -35."



"Yes, most do pick it. But not all.

This Hornet guy is one example. I do not think he is saying the F-35C is bad at dog-fighting. He just said that "The most fun I would say is the Legacy Hornet. Just a blue collar working man’s jet, super snappy, super agile, she'll do anything you ask of her!"

I've had a F-16 pilot tell me near the same.

I seriously do not understand the mental gymnastics that goes on here concerning the F-35 and its dog-fight ability. All we have to go by is what the pilots have to say, or watching its air demos. All other material (actual EM charts, not flight modeled) is classified; and will remain so for the next 30+ years.

The F-35 is just fine in the air; and it will only get better. Is it the best 3-9 BFM jet out there, No. Is it the hapless slug (i.e. F-105 type can't turn.......)that people like Sprey made it out to be, ABSOLUTELY NOT."



"So what if the pilot said he would rather hot dog or have fun in the F-18 more? The point is, he said he would rather take the F-35 to war vs legacy Hornet. That is what matters the most.

As he said, the Hornet is old (like the F-16,F-15,A-10). These jets have been in near constant action since August 1990. Their time has passed.

If I was a pilot in Vietnam circa 1965, I probably would pick the F-104 as the ultimate fun to fly or rage in jet. Yet, I would not want to go to SEA in one. I'd pick the Phantom for that."



"There is a difference between "not being designed to dog-fight" and being "the best dog-fighter". The F-35 came out of the JSF progam. (Joint STRIKE FIGHTER). So obviously for the fighter aspect it had to include close in attributes as well as BVR.

I spoke with 2 F-35 pilots from Eglin last summer. I asked them "is it fair to conclude that the F-35 is part Hornet and part Viper close in?" The one guy basically said, "yes, that is a reasonable assessment." However, being part Hornet/Viper doesn't make it the best BFM jet. The one pilot said that Air to Air it doesn't compare to the F-22. Now, you guys can think I'm full of s**t, I really don't care. Go ask some F-35 pilots the same question next summer to calm your nerves down.

And I seriously do not get the big deal if the Navy Aviator said he liked to "rage in the Hornet" better. So what?

You know, if that jet in the near future does ACM against the euros and somehow inadvertently ends up in a Rafale or Typhoon HUD gun camera; are you guys going to start dropping from heart attacks? Let it go-"





Again, no statement exists concluding that the Hornet is better at anything against the F-35.
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Unread post21 Dec 2018, 16:10

I don't do reddit. However, I occasionally read it.

Now, you guys can come to your own conclusions about this individual who claims to be a Super Hornet pilot. I do not know if he is fake or not? I believe his account was deleted.


"I've worked with a few guys who have flown it. The word seems to be that it's about similar to a Rhino performance wise (a bit of a fat kid), but the avionics and sensors are absolutely face melting. Avionics, sensors/sensor fusion, weapons, stealth/LO, pilot interface...that is what makes an air superiority fighter these days. The F-35 can do things that us 4th gen pilots can only dream of."


DISCLAIMER: Those are HIS words, not mine. Is he real or fake, who knows? Ask 35AOA that question.


link to his entire interview (4yrs ago):

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ ... ilot_amaa/
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Unread post21 Dec 2018, 20:12

ricnunes wrote:
steve2267 wrote:When former Bug drivers are quoted exclaiming, “It’s like a Hornet with FOUR motors” or “It’s like a Hornet with a TURBO!”, it makes me wonder why the Reddit pilot, or any Bug or Rhino driver would pick the old plane for tooling around in. Maybe it’s a familiarity or first love thing. Maybe the Hornet cockpit is more comfortable (easier in which to pee, anyway.). Or perhaps flight control “feel.” A number of pilots have remarked about how great ergonomics are in the Hornet... so maybe the pilot interface is a little more “natural.” But none of these areas have been noted as “peeves” by Lightning drivers, not that I recall anyway.


Or maybe it's just and simply a "nostalgia" thing.
Similar to those guys who prefer to drive for fun an old Cadillac (or some other car from that era) this despite any equivalent modern car being better in everything, including in every part or envelop of the performance.


Regarding the F-35 and "designed for dogfight", I must admit that I was always and still am puzzled when I read or hear when someone says that the "F-35 wasn't designed for dogfight". This regarding being an aircraft (F-35) which was designed to combine the agility of the F-16 with the agility of the F/A-18. IMO, any aircraft with these agility requirement was obviously designed for having a dogfight capability in mind. (Now, I obviously agree that this is probably the least important of the F-35's capabilities).


The issue I think is confusing tactics with capabilities. At no point in time, has anyone ever said that the F-35 wasn't designed to be very agile. Too many tend to believe that dogfight is a synonym for agility, so when they hear that the F-35 wasn't designed to dogfight, they hear "we didn't design it to be agile." What they should hear is "we designed it to be agile enough to dogfight, but lethal enough that it doesn't need to."
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ricnunes

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Unread post21 Dec 2018, 20:24

wrightwing wrote:At no point in time, has anyone ever said that the F-35 wasn't designed to be very agile.


Here I beg to differ.
I've seen lots and lots of people claiming that the "F-35 can't turn", the "F-35 is a modern F-105", the "F-35 is a turkey" and so on...
Granted that in this forum (F-16.net) there hasn't been much of such claims (but and nonetheless they still happen from time to time) and also granted that such kind of comments have been diminishing as time goes by but nevertheless and again, they still exist (and will continue to exist in the foreseeable future).

Unless of course that with that comment of yours above, you meant on this thread alone? If this was the case then I take back what I've said here in this last post of mine.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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