Did this really happen?

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

xoferwalken

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: 22 Sep 2018, 19:47

Unread post22 Sep 2018, 19:53

Hi everyone. Sorry if this sounds like a bizarre question but, did the USAF ever consider buying B variants at any point? This sounds like a Mandela effect thing but I vividly remember reading an article talking about how the USAF was going to acquire about 200 of them (IIRC) in order to calm the concerns of CAS complainers (how that would've worked I don't know) - and then it went into detail about how the AF cancelled it because they found the sortie generation for B unsatisfactory (something the Marines took issue with if I'm remembering it right). Does any know what I'm talking about? I'm completely unable to find it anymore and it's sort of making me feel like I'm crazy. Thanks. :bang:
Offline

mr.gibbys

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 6
  • Joined: 13 May 2018, 17:27

Unread post22 Sep 2018, 22:02

xoferwalken wrote:did the USAF ever consider buying B variants at any point?


iirc the USAF wanted to procure a few of them somewhere before the initial JSF program, for whatever reason. I think it was the CALF program at this stage, where the fighter was practically the same between the STOVL and normal variant. This video might be of some use if you care for it:

https://youtu.be/u-cfy-k_8ew?t=2524
Know thy self, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories.
Offline

southernphantom

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1043
  • Joined: 06 Aug 2011, 17:18
  • Location: Kentucky

Unread post22 Sep 2018, 23:07

I don't think you're crazy; I vaguely remember reading the same thing some years ago.
I'm a mining engineer. How the hell did I wind up here?
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 21745
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -1

Unread post22 Sep 2018, 23:40

The info is somewhere in F-35 sub forums: Have Search Engine - Will Have Searched. Jeepers even Google may clock it.

SO "USAF General Wants STOVL F-35Bs for USAF" was gargled with the 1st result thusly. BEFORE GOING THERE ONE COULD

Topic: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=12841&p=159484&hilit=Rebecca#p159484 GO HERE FOR AN ENTIRE THREAD forfender:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=12841&p=159522 Why USAF should not buy the F-35B yet buy ALL F-35Cs PDF
USAF: F-35B cannot generate enough sorties to replace A-10
16 May 2012 Dave Majumdar

"The US Air Force has concluded that the short take-off vertical landing (STOVL) Lockheed Martin F-35B- model aircraft cannot generate enough sorties to meet its needs; therefore the service will not consider replacing the Fairchild Republic A-10 Warthog close air support jet with that variant....

..."The F-35B is well-suited to support of the Marine Air Ground Taskforce (MAGTF) in very austere locations," says USAF chief of staff Gen Norton Schwartz, speaking at an event hosted by the Brookings Institution in Washington, D.C. "But the reality is, is that scenario is not a high sortie generation scenario."... ???????????????????????????????????????????? [HOW "BOUT BEING CLOSER TO THE FIGHT FOR SHORT TRANSIT TIMES?]

...Retired Lt Gen George Trautman, a former US Marine Corps (USMC) deputy commandant for aviation, disputes Schwartz's assertion that the F-35B cannot generate as many sorties as the A or C model aircraft.

"The F35B has highest sortie generation rate among the three JSF [Joint Strike Fighter] variants," Trautman says. "There may be other reasons the air force doesn't want the B, but sortie rate isn't a factor."

In fact, the USMC's concept of operations depends on the STOVL variant generating more sorties more rapidly than other JSF models, says retired USMC Lt Gen Emerson Gardner, a former naval aviator.

The key performance parameters (KPP) for the F-35 require higher sortie rates for the B-model at four sorties per day. The A and C models are only required to generate three sorties per day.

"So far in SDD [System Development and Demonstration], all three variants are on track to exceed their KPPs at the completion of SDD," Gardner says. "The B looks to come in at about six sorties per day, the A at about 3.5 and the C at close to four."

While USAF will not consider buying the F-35B, the service is fully committed to buying its own conventional take-off F-35A variant...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ac-371985/
Last edited by spazsinbad on 23 Sep 2018, 01:13, edited 1 time in total.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Online

SpudmanWP

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 7835
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
  • Location: California

Unread post23 Sep 2018, 00:24

The funny thing is, the F-35B has the highest sortie rate KPP of all the variants, primarily due to austere operations.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Offline
User avatar

popcorn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 7508
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

Unread post23 Sep 2018, 02:14

I think the AF and Marines would have somewhat different views of what constitutes austere basing.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
Offline
User avatar

Gums

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2182
  • Joined: 16 Dec 2003, 17:26

Unread post23 Sep 2018, 05:15

Salute!

Nice call, Pop!!!

Where's my air-conditioned trailer? No O-club? What kinda austere base is this, anyway.
++++++++++++++++++++++

No way USAF ever wanted or needed a STOVL attack plane. Jez my opinion.

Sortie rates are something I am familiar with, having flown two attack types that had super rates. Naturally, the A-37 was awesome. But then the Viper came along. Huh? High tech avionics? One motor? Multi-role? Yep, all of the above.

During one ORI 1983 or so the 4th flew over 100 sorties in one day after starting with 22 or 23 airframes that morning. Seems that if the plane worked on the first sortie that is hardly ever broke.

That being said, if you want a huge sortie rate and short response time to the grunts, then keep the Hawg around for another 30 years and fly from sh!!!hole bases or strips in the desert/jungle. Dunno what scenario that would be goodl for other than useless nation-building fiascoes we have seen for too many years.

Where we were and are still good at is getting a squadron, or at least a decent number of planes, to some remote area in a day or so. Being a plans weenie back then, it was a beautiful thing to see the deployment within 24 hours of T+0. There are also OPLAN's for small groups, like 6 or 8 planes, to be airborne within 12 hours or less. Depends on your wing.
++++++
This whole thing sounds like it should be a thread dealing with strategy, roles and missions.

Gums sends...
Gums
Viper pilot '79
"God in your guts, good men at your back, wings that stay on - and Tally Ho!"
Offline
User avatar

popcorn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 7508
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

Unread post23 Sep 2018, 05:21

I guess having only a mini-golf course qualifies as AF austere. :D
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
Offline
User avatar

xoferwalken

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: 22 Sep 2018, 19:47

Unread post23 Sep 2018, 14:08

spazsinbad wrote:The info is somewhere in F-35 sub forums: Have Search Engine - Will Have Searched. Jeepers even Google may clock it.

SO "USAF General Wants STOVL F-35Bs for USAF" was gargled with the 1st result thusly. BEFORE GOING THERE ONE COULD

Topic: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=12841&p=159484&hilit=Rebecca#p159484 GO HERE FOR AN ENTIRE THREAD forfender:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=12841&p=159522 Why USAF should not buy the F-35B yet buy ALL F-35Cs PDF
USAF: F-35B cannot generate enough sorties to replace A-10
16 May 2012 Dave Majumdar

"The US Air Force has concluded that the short take-off vertical landing (STOVL) Lockheed Martin F-35B- model aircraft cannot generate enough sorties to meet its needs; therefore the service will not consider replacing the Fairchild Republic A-10 Warthog close air support jet with that variant....

..."The F-35B is well-suited to support of the Marine Air Ground Taskforce (MAGTF) in very austere locations," says USAF chief of staff Gen Norton Schwartz, speaking at an event hosted by the Brookings Institution in Washington, D.C. "But the reality is, is that scenario is not a high sortie generation scenario."... ???????????????????????????????????????????? [HOW "BOUT BEING CLOSER TO THE FIGHT FOR SHORT TRANSIT TIMES?]

...Retired Lt Gen George Trautman, a former US Marine Corps (USMC) deputy commandant for aviation, disputes Schwartz's assertion that the F-35B cannot generate as many sorties as the A or C model aircraft.

"The F35B has highest sortie generation rate among the three JSF [Joint Strike Fighter] variants," Trautman says. "There may be other reasons the air force doesn't want the B, but sortie rate isn't a factor."

In fact, the USMC's concept of operations depends on the STOVL variant generating more sorties more rapidly than other JSF models, says retired USMC Lt Gen Emerson Gardner, a former naval aviator.

The key performance parameters (KPP) for the F-35 require higher sortie rates for the B-model at four sorties per day. The A and C models are only required to generate three sorties per day.

"So far in SDD [System Development and Demonstration], all three variants are on track to exceed their KPPs at the completion of SDD," Gardner says. "The B looks to come in at about six sorties per day, the A at about 3.5 and the C at close to four."

While USAF will not consider buying the F-35B, the service is fully committed to buying its own conventional take-off F-35A variant...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ac-371985/



:D Huzzah! Thank you sir. THIS is exactly the thing I read a few years ago. Thank you. Glad to know I'm not crazy.
Offline
User avatar

Gums

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2182
  • Joined: 16 Dec 2003, 17:26

Unread post24 Sep 2018, 01:29

Salute!

@ walken !!!!

No need to quote the entire post from before. PLZ.

Most of us have already looked at it or read it or read another quote of it by some other member.

Gums sends....
Gums
Viper pilot '79
"God in your guts, good men at your back, wings that stay on - and Tally Ho!"
Offline
User avatar

rheonomic

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 629
  • Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 03:44

Unread post29 Sep 2018, 00:34

As far as I know there was once consideration of USAF B models, but that obviously never went anywhere.
"You could do that, but it would be wrong."
Offline

weasel1962

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1152
  • Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 02:41
  • Location: Singapore
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post23 Nov 2018, 02:57

Liked the thread title so putting this here.

35 F-35s doing the elephant walk up at hill...

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... ass-drill/
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 21745
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -1

Unread post23 Nov 2018, 03:30

weasel1962 wrote:Liked the thread title so putting this here. 35 F-35s doing the elephant walk up at hill...
https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... ass-drill/

This thread is more appropriate and funnier also FIFY: "35 F-35s doing the elephant walk up the hill..."?

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=54651&p=406119&hilit=hill#p406119
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline

weasel1962

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1152
  • Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 02:41
  • Location: Singapore
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post24 Nov 2018, 07:02

Seriously considered up but some word auditors will highlight that it was really at Hill air force base and that the runways are flat so settled for "at" instead of "up". Can't win them all :poke:
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 21745
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -1

Unread post24 Nov 2018, 08:04

Yeah but NO but Yeah but 'efelants walkin' up the hill' is much funnier. English is a good but obscure language sometimes.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/

Return to General F-35 Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests