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Re: F-35B in the ME for first time

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 18:35
by spazsinbad
No worries. You had spelt 'do' incorrectly. It is not 'due'. However I acknowledge that 'merican engrish is really not ENGLISH at all - so whatever. :D You see me raving about LIGHTENING and OTHER MISS SPELT STUFF but I know it is a losing (NOT LOOSING) proposition. I'm not KING CANUCK (yes I know CANUTE) fighting the tide of internet mobile fone thumbing spel.

What about SM6?

Re: F-35B in the ME for first time

Unread postPosted: 16 Sep 2018, 06:12
by usnvo
marsavian wrote:The Paveway II (500lb GBU-49) can be used for moving targets at 3F and 400 have been ordered. Doubt any are on board though as they should just be receiving this order about now.


Even with 2B software, the GBU-12 is fine for targets moving slower than 40mph so just about any ship is within its engagement envelope without pilot intervention. For faster targets, a GBU-12 can still be used to engage it, but requires the pilot to manually lead the target which increases the workload for the pilot as well as the possibility of a miss. A GBU-49 just adds GPS/INS and proportional guidance that allows targets travelling faster than 40mph to be engaged by tracking the target directly instead of leading it.

Re: F-35B in the ME for first time

Unread postPosted: 16 Sep 2018, 17:58
by ricnunes
usnvo wrote:Even with 2B software, the GBU-12 is fine for targets moving slower than 40mph so just about any ship is within its engagement envelope without pilot intervention. For faster targets, a GBU-12 can still be used to engage it, but requires the pilot to manually lead the target which increases the workload for the pilot as well as the possibility of a miss. A GBU-49 just adds GPS/INS and proportional guidance that allows targets travelling faster than 40mph to be engaged by tracking the target directly instead of leading it.


Indeed.
And moreover, the GBU-49 allows the engagement of targets in any weather conditions, such as bad weather and/or any other conditions which may obscure the targets (due to the help of GPS guidance).

Re: F-35B in the ME for first time

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 16:33
by aasm
Appaarently as aretaliation, Russia will deliver two S-300 systems to Syria within next 15 days. Dunno which version (300 is a family), neither operational capabilities of staff.

Re: F-35B in the ME for first time

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 16:36
by sferrin
aasm wrote:Appaarently as aretaliation, Russia will deliver two S-300 systems to Syria within next 15 days. Dunno which version (300 is a family), neither operational capabilities of staff.


S-400 has been there for over a year. I think the S-300s are to replace the Syrian S-200s so they don't shoot their own guys down again more than any retaliation.

Re: F-35B in the ME for first time

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 16:48
by hythelday
aasm wrote:Appaarently as aretaliation, Russia will deliver two S-300 systems to Syria within next 15 days. Dunno which version (300 is a family), neither operational capabilities of staff.


The more radio waves Syrians and Russians blast into airspace over Syria, the better for SIGINT and F-35's... what the correct term was... mission file database?

Russians themselves have S-400 protecting Hmeimim AB and Tartous, which are superior both in technical and HR department. This delivery (if it happens) amounts almost to no change in overall balance of power in the region, and certainly does not affect F-35 operations. Israel already said they will continue to strike Iran and their proxy targets in Syria; no doubt on my part that they will.

Re: F-35B in the ME for first time

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 09:23
by element1loop
hythelday wrote:
aasm wrote:Appaarently as aretaliation, Russia will deliver two S-300 systems to Syria within next 15 days. Dunno which version (300 is a family), neither operational capabilities of staff.


The more radio waves Syrians and Russians blast into airspace over Syria, the better for SIGINT and F-35's... what the correct term was... mission file database? Russians themselves have S-400 protecting Hmeimim AB and Tartous, which are superior both in technical and HR department. This delivery (if it happens) amounts almost to no change in overall balance of power in the region, and certainly does not affect F-35 operations. Israel already said they will continue to strike Iran and their proxy targets in Syria; no doubt on my part that they will.


Israel's now calling it 'preemption'.

Assad supported Iran to arm proxies for decades which proxies are Assad's brothers-in-arms and which Assad backed to attack Israeli forces in 2006. They even zapped an IDF corvette with Iranian supplied ASM. So it's not like any one involved in backing Assad now or supporting Assad with S300 and S400 can claim to be just an innocent bystander. If they had any brains they'd ask Iran to remove its forces from Syria by the end of October, at the latest.

It may be wise to get those shiny new SAMs insured.

Re: F-35B in the ME for first time

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 10:34
by aasm
Things are slightly more complex. Russian also threatened to jam communications over Syria in case of a new attack. If you are IDF planner you will therefore have to deal with a very different tactical situation than before. (And not like it as you were previously extremely sccessful). The point is not to know if F-35 can defeat S-300 (which type, PMU-2 or else? nertworked with what and to ahwt extnd etc;?), but if you can be sure of a mission success without significant lost. Until the Syrian S-300 capabiliies are better know,, it will be a nightmare for mission planners and therefore very probably will lead israel to rethink its mission tempo and tactics (using long range weapons for example)

Re: F-35B in the ME for first time

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 11:21
by hythelday
aasm wrote:Things are slightly more complex. Russian also threatened to jam communications over Syria in case of a new attack. If you are IDF planner you will therefore have to deal with a very different tactical situation than before. (And not like it as you were previously extremely sccessful). The point is not to know if F-35 can defeat S-300 (which type, PMU-2 or else? nertworked with what and to ahwt extnd etc;?), but if you can be sure of a mission success without significant lost. Until the Syrian S-300 capabiliies are better know,, it will be a nightmare for mission planners and therefore very probably will lead israel to rethink its mission tempo and tactics (using long range weapons for example)



Russians threaten to do a lot of things. They have the right to do so.

Your arguments work both ways - EW can be both offensive and defensive - let the Russians jam, or think they jam comms, or what they think comm channels are. At this point it is also not known whether or not a S-300 can defeat a F-35 either.

I also strongly disagree with your asessment of Israel not being extremely successful - hundreds of airstrikes for one F-16 crashing over Israely territory is an extremely favorable exchange rate IMO. IAF mission planners have cracked tougher nuts before, and so far giving wunderwaffe gear to SAA hasn't produced drastic changes - there's a nice video of SA-21seen through PGM's IR sight from the last round of this dick measurement competition.

Re: F-35B in the ME for first time

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 16:10
by aasm
At this point it is also not known whether or not a S-300 can defeat a F-35 either.

I also strongly disagree with your asessment of Israel not being extremely successful - hundreds of airstrikes for one F-16


Somehow lost in translation. I meant will not like any change in tactical situation DUE to previous success (one do not change a winnin combo...)

*I do agree about the uncertainty of a S300 being able to defeat a F-35. However, if i was a mission planner, i would not bet my pilots life on it (even with favourable odds) before extensive testing of the supposed area denial zone. These things take a bunch of time.
About jamming, ground assets have access to a virtually unlimited power. This is definitely an advantage to perform a white (or pink) noise.

I didn't mean anymore.

Re: F-35B in the ME for first time

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 16:24
by SpudmanWP
They have been doing that level of testing for over a decade (Red Flag, Northern Edge, dedicated RCS ranges, etc).

Re: F-35B in the ME for first time

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 19:35
by wrightwing
S-300s add new levels of difficulty for Israeli F-15s and F-16s, however the F-35s can provide targeting data and EW/EA support, for long range stand off. They can also conduct attacks unilaterally, outside the S-300 MEZ.

Re: F-35B in the ME for first time

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 19:47
by ricnunes
wrightwing wrote:S-300s add new levels of difficulty for Israeli F-15s and F-16s, however the F-35s can provide targeting data and EW/EA support, for long range stand off. They can also conduct attacks unilaterally, outside the S-300 MEZ.


Indeed!
In a best case scenario the level of threat that the S-300s could pose to the F-35s should be similar to the threat that the S-200s currently pose to the F-15s and F-16s.
So not really a change of threat when it comes to the F-35's "perspective".

Moreover the S-300 is definitely NOT an unknown weapon to NATO (e.g., Slovakia using their S-300 systems in NATO exercises, S-300s purchased by Greece, although which variant or variants of these S-300 that I'm talking about can be disputed) and I bet that if NATO knows about the S-300, so does Israel.

Re: F-35B in the ME for first time

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 20:21
by hythelday
Israelis already described F-35 as a great electromagnetic "sponge" that can, once in the air, sense what's going on in the "entire region".

Russians have had their version of S-3/400 in the rea for more than a year, so unless they were sitting dormant Adirs "sniffed" a lot of their emissions, at least the volume search radar, more *if* Russians used these systems during last missile strike (probably didn't).

For Isreal it would be quite easy to bait Syrians to use S-300 against decoys/drones to validate any intel they already have.

Re: F-35B in the ME for first time

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 20:47
by wrightwing
hythelday wrote:Israelis already described F-35 as a great electromagnetic "sponge" that can, once in the air, sense what's going on in the "entire region".

Russians have had their version of S-3/400 in the rea for more than a year, so unless they were sitting dormant Adirs "sniffed" a lot of their emissions, at least the volume search radar, more *if* Russians used these systems during last missile strike (probably didn't).

For Isreal it would be quite easy to bait Syrians to use S-300 against decoys/drones to validate any intel they already have.

You can rest assured that F-22s have been doing a lot of EOB mapping, developing MDFs for all of the various SAMs, as well as Su-30/35, etc... I know Israel hasn't been sitting on their hands, either.