F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2017, 07:06
by spazsinbad
F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1
01 Dec 2017 Jeff Babione F-35 GM Weekly Update

"The 33rd Fighter Wing at Eglin AFB, Florida, recently provided support for exercise Checkered Flag 18-1, a large scale air-to-air exercise that emphasizes the execution and production of tactics between fourth and fifth generation aircraft.

“Our role was that of one of the fifth-generation players in the exercise,” said Maj. Matthew Tucker, 58th Fighter Squadron F-35 pilot. “Most of what we are focusing on is the integration aspect; how we take fifth-gen aircraft and plug them into a four ship of fourth-gen aircraft, then understanding how we can operate together, communicate with one another and who brings what to the fight.”

Additionally, it is one of the few exercises where the F-35A and F-22 participate as aggressors, allowing for realistic
training against similar adversaries.

“We always want to train to the highest level we are able to, but we can’t participate as aggressors in all of the exercises
this aircraft is a part of,” Tucker said. “During this specific exercise we are using fifth-gen on both sides. It allows us to
exercise the tactics we have laid out while creating a standard across the force.”

The wing launched 44 sorties for the exercise in conjunction with the on-going F-35 pilot training mission at Eglin AFB.
Great work by the team on continuing to advance the capabilities of the F-35A in a wide variety of operational scenarios."

Source: https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a6 ... 2_1_17.pdf (220Kb)

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2017, 07:14
by Corsair1963
spazsinbad wrote:
F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1
01 Dec 2017 Jeff Babione F-35 GM Weekly Update

"The 33rd Fighter Wing at Eglin AFB, Florida, recently provided support for exercise Checkered Flag 18-1, a large scale air-to-air exercise that emphasizes the execution and production of tactics between fourth and fifth generation aircraft.

“Our role was that of one of the fifth-generation players in the exercise,” said Maj. Matthew Tucker, 58th Fighter Squadron F-35 pilot. “Most of what we are focusing on is the integration aspect; how we take fifth-gen aircraft and plug them into a four ship of fourth-gen aircraft, then understanding how we can operate together, communicate with one another and who brings what to the fight.”

Additionally, it is one of the few exercises where the F-35A and F-22 participate as aggressors, allowing for realistic
training against similar adversaries.

“We always want to train to the highest level we are able to, but we can’t participate as aggressors in all of the exercises
this aircraft is a part of,” Tucker said. “During this specific exercise we are using fifth-gen on both sides. It allows us to
exercise the tactics we have laid out while creating a standard across the force.”

The wing launched 44 sorties for the exercise in conjunction with the on-going F-35 pilot training mission at Eglin AFB.
Great work by the team on continuing to advance the capabilities of the F-35A in a wide variety of operational scenarios."

Source: https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a6 ... 2_1_17.pdf (220Kb)


Clearly, a work in progress..... 8)

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 07 Dec 2017, 08:42
by spazsinbad
More flags than youse can wave on any given day....
Orange Flag Evaluates Teamwork, Interoperability Across Services
28 Nov 2017 412th Operations Group, Edwards Air Force Base

"It takes a team to get things done. Last month, team Edwards, along with Navy and Marine teammates, came together for a coordinated, multi-service flight test event known as Orange Flag. Twenty-eight aircraft gathered in the skies above the Mojave Desert during the three-hour test event named after the symbolic color of flight test—orange. The test aircraft, outfitted with data-gathering gear, launched from Edwards Air Force Base, Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake, Naval Air Station Point Mugu, and Nellis AFB, Nevada.

According to Lt. Col. Richard Turner, F-35 pilot and 412 Operations Group deputy commander, Orange Flag tests the interoperability of the services’ fighters, bombers, and Command-and-Control aircraft. Cooperation between Developmental Test and Operational Test, or combined DT-OT, have proven successful in the past for both the Air Force and Navy but were primarily focused on testing a single aircraft type such as the F-18 or F-22.

Orange Flag represents a collaborative effort not only between DT and OT, but across the Air Force, Navy, and Marines.

“The ‘developmental’ objectives were developed by the 412th Test Wing here, the 96th Test Wing at Eglin AFB, Florida, and the Navy’s VX-31 Test Squadron at NAWS China Lake. The ‘operational’ objectives came from the 53rd Test Wing at Nellis, and the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Operational Test Team at Edwards,” said Turner.

Personnel tested eight different types of aircraft: F-35As and F-35Bs (Air Force and Marine variants), F-18E Super Hornets, F-18G Growlers, E-2C Hawkeyes, F-22 Raptors, F-15C Eagles, F-15E Strike Eagles and F-16 Fighting Falcons. Additionally, a ground station participated in support of B-1 developmental testing. Merging all of these objectives took the efforts of test pilots, engineers, and airspace operators. Turner led the innovative approach to testing the highly complex system(s).

“This was an important advance in how we vet our weapon systems in DT and OT,” Turner said. “Orange Flag required a huge team effort and I look forward to seeing it impact the warfighter in the future.”

Test engineer Kristofer Peterson noted that the value of the unique data set generated during the test brings to light issues that may have previously been unknown, which could potentially bring about innovation after the data is evaluated and leveraged. “The dataset will allow us to quickly identify issues across multiple platforms and even uncover issues we previously didn’t know about,” he said. “However, to do this we require new analysis methods and we plan on leveraging the lessons learned from a data analytics innovation project funded by the test wing this past year.”

Interoperability engineer Matt Smerk also commented on the unique value of the Orange Flag Events. "We must be able to integrate and interoperate our joint forces across a wide range of mission areas. OFEs enable the test community to capture data to assess the military utility of integrating and interoperating multiple platforms in an environment not done via traditional DT."...

...The planning included 10 organizations distributed across five different locations. This year’s Orange Flag served as an example of successful distributed test operations, with control rooms at Edwards and China Lake ensuring effective test setup and execution of operations originating from Edwards, China Lake, Nellis, Eglin and Pt. Mugu.

Future Orange Flag events are scheduled to occur each quarter starting in February 2018."

Source: http://www.edwards.af.mil/News/Article/ ... -services/

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 00:55
by Gums
Salute!


Errrrr....... Corsair.....

Did I miss the post by Spaz just before your "quote" of the complete post by Spaz, and then a few words by you?

Gums whines...

P.S. Good to see the Stubbies flying about here last two weeks with a few mixed formations and such.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 06:22
by optimist
when are you getting broadband Gums? You're stovepiping. :bang:

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 22:58
by Gums
Salute!

I don't unnerstan the "stovepiping" ref, but whatthehell. I'll continue to berate anyone that insists upon quoting an entire post without commenting upon a specific sentence or phrase.

The text quotes are not a problem with 56K telephone modem, they are just irritating as I just read the post above!!!

As far as broadband goes, I had to have a satellite rig installed last year at the mountain cabin, No cable, no cell, no landline DSL due to distance from substation, etc. If you are not high speed these days it sucks when sites cram unwanted videos down your throat. Worse, with the Hughes rig in the mountains I pay by the byte!!!!

In any case, I just wanted to remind our folks to observe a fair amount of etiquette and realize most of us have read the previous post and do not need to be reminded unless one excerpts a bit for discussion.

Gums sends...

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 09 Dec 2017, 01:17
by citanon
In guilty of the quote the entire post thing some times

It turns out to be a complete pain to partial quote on a cellphone.

Modern mobile computing colliding with cabin in the mountains remote communications....

Re: spaz's post: the things those boys must be learning :shock:

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 01:37
by nutshell
So f35 and 22 as blues and reds?

Those pilot gonna have so much fun /s.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 06:25
by blindpilot
nutshell wrote:So f35 and 22 as blues and reds?

Those pilot gonna have so much fun /s.


Actually it's more than just fun.

Much like you don't make an aircraft carrier by putting some planes on a ship with a flat top deck. Operating such systems over time creates deep ecosystems/institutional knowledge, that take time to mature. Nothing can replace that time ....

The headstart (literally decades now) in development of B-2/F-117/22/35 conops, and engaging fifth gen tech is more than just some magic paint on an airframe. If you gave an air force 4 F-35s, it would take time (years) to mature those ecosystems. That's why other allies are embedded with the US services.(training at Luke, at Beaufort, exchanges with US units like F-22 squadrons) They have been spending years, growing roots.

Every exercise widens that gap. And every exercise builds on the last one.

MHO,
BP

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 00:41
by nutshell
The reasoning behind it is stupidly intuitive; just try to immagine how frustrating might be for a F35 pilot to stare at his own radar hoping to catch that F22 pilot...

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 01:20
by steve2267
nutshell wrote:The reasoning behind it is stupidly intuitive; just try to immagine how frustrating might be for a F35 pilot to stare at his own radar hoping to catch that F22 pilot...


It was in a different thread, I think, wherein I mused that a F-35 fourship might be able to take down an F-22 fourship. F-16adf, with far more experience than I, and having spoke with F-22 pilots at Langley, put my musings to rest fairly quickly, declaring that no other fighter in the world was better at air-to-air than the F-22. And I have to take that statement at face value.

Where my musings had originated from, however, was not any suggestion that the F-35 was more maneuverable than the F-22, or had any better kinematic performance, though an old statement by fulcrumflyer on AboveTopSecret forum suggests the F-35 might out-accelerate the F-22 subsonically in certain altitude ranges... no my musings had arisen from F-35 having DAS and EOTS, whereas the F-22, as best I can tell, has nothing comparable? Thus I wondered if a fourship of F-35's might get a sniff of the F-22's via IR and/or electroptics, then they would all know where they were via MADL. Knowing where they were and their heading, perhaps strategies could be developed that allows one F-35 to then paint an F-22 from a less stealthy aspect (e.g. abeam a wing?) and get some additional information via APG-81 to refine tracks?

Of course, if the F-22 has something like DAS, it would work both ways.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 08:00
by optimist
Don't put money on the specs or even what the actual systems are on the f-22. deception is all part of the game.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 18:15
by Gums
Salute!

Good points Opt.

Some things you keep to yourself. And then there' basic, or not so basic, tactics using the equipment you have and the other guy knows you have it but isn't sure you are using it or using it as advertised.

You nailed it with "deception is all part of the game". So even with full knowledge I was behind your Bear or Bison, I could have my radar in the search mode but have a perfect lockon using my IRSTS and the "IR/RDR SLAVE" mode ( F-102, F-101B and F-106) way back in the 60's when I was a nugget. Close in, then upgrade to full system lock and fire within a few seconds in the heart of the envelope. So fast forward to a galaxy far away from the one I learned and fought in. I can use a host of sensors as Steve has postulated, and the other guy may not even know I am there due to the LO features of my jet.
There are plenty of ways to calculate the target path nowadays due to the cosmic computers. Close in for the kill shot where his sensors have a weakness and poof.

One cool thing we had back then was a hydraulicaly tuned magnetron. It had RF characteristics like today's spread spectrum. It could tune over a very wide band between pulses, so the other guy would only see static or white noise on his ECN display. We did not advertise the specifics, and the other guys prolly knew a lot about our capabilities. The problem was knowing if we were using it or not. And then we couldn't practice a lot with the best mode if a certain satellite was overhead. Nevertheless, my RIO and I saw it one day attacking a buff. Great EWO, and he would brak our lock within a few seconds or use a range gate stealer with an angle deception repeater process. So we're wasting gas sitting there and RIO says, "screw it, we're going "fast max"". Lockon follows, my steering dot settles, and "Fox 1". Because the buff was colocated with us, we had a good debrief. EWO said that suddenly it looked to him that we had turned our radar off.

So imagine the possibilities with the new radars and sensors.

Gums sends...

Our 4th gen folks have to see what it's like to face an adversary which employs just a few 5th gen dudes amongs many 3rd and 4th gen platforms.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 21:09
by blindpilot
Gums wrote:Salute!

Good points Opt.

... So we're wasting gas sitting there and RIO says, "screw it, we're going "fast max"". Lockon follows, my steering dot settles, and "Fox 1". Because the buff was collocated with us, we had a good debrief. EWO said that suddenly it looked to him that we had turned our radar off.
So imagine the possibilities with the new radars and sensors.
Gums sends...


And this was followed by the buff crew going back for an ECM adaptation, followed by another similar F-101/102 ECCM response, followed by ....

This is why I say that the decades of fifth gen exercises/conops development are serious advantages for US services having been there done that at multiple levels.

And actually, unless the F-35 guy is someone who flew F-22s for a tour, the F-22s ... well let's just say they have been "fighting" fifth gen battles for a few more years than the F-35 guy... so I wouldn't understate the F-22s doing their job. They've been exercising fifth gen stuff since Exercise Northern Edge June 2006.

Of course work like the above Checkered Flag 18-1 is building on that experience foundation very fast for the F-35s.

MHO
BP

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 01:24
by Gums
Salute!

The one I wanna see is Red 22's and Blue 35's.

The initial Viper Red Flag and Green Flag exercises were a surprise to the Reds. We weren't LO and were a little bit easier to see visually than the Red T-38 and F-5 guys. The thing that got them was we had longer legs than they expected and could hit the tgt first pass and fight our way in/out if we had to. With 6 x 1000 pounders and one jamming pod and two missiles it was easy to zip in at 540 KIAS burning about 9,000 lb/hr. We took two bags and used centerline for the pod, MERS for the eggs. So I sit there one day and note I had 10,000 friggin' pounds and a hundred miles out from tgt at 540 KIAS burning 9,000 lb/hour with lottsa throttle left over.

The second thing I mentioned was we could turn and fight if we picked up the other guy soon enuf. The aggressor guys didn't use radar, so it had to be visual pickup and good formation. The other guys showed up on RHAW early enuf to check six and engage or keep on trucking. See the RAF Bomb Comp history for first Viper dissimilar competition.

I think only way the other guy is gonna get a Subby is visually with sun behind him. Even then, the radar warning gear might get a sniff before it's too late.

Gums opines....

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 03:38
by doge
Something that might be related to F-22 vs F-35...
From an interview by Japanese TV show.
Interviewee: Tony Wilson (Test Pilot at Lockheed Martin)
https://youtu.be/ZBLq4c55unM?t=170
F 35 is the strongest fighter-min.png

(Used a Google Translation)
Q) Is it the world's strongest fighter?
Wilson) There is no doubt.


So far, I think that many pilots and people have insisted "The strongest fighter is F-22".
But this time, Not the F-22, A answer that affirms the assertion that "The strongest fighter is F-35", I saw it for the first time in this interview that the pilot will answer like that. :shock: Wow. (...but...or...It might be mere a flattery...?)

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 04:12
by mas
The reason why F-35 might be is because it has extensive IR technology, both offensive and defensive, as well as a LRF in addition to the VLO F-22 has. For the rest of the opposition F-22 might face that's not really a problem but against the F-35 its radar might only detect it at 10-15 nm whereas the F-35's IR technology will probably have detected it before then and generated a firing solution already meaning the F-22 will start on the defensive back foot. Any mutual jamming of their radars that might take place will reduce the radar detection rate further to about 5-8 nm and any aamrams launched will still need further guidance against a jamming VLO target. F-22 might be just as better off firing an Aim-9X at range.

There's probably little doubt that a well flown F-22 will eventually take a F-35 if they are maneouvering for a guns shot but it will have to get past the F-35 missiles first and its EOTS/DAS will give the latter an advantage at least in favourable weather. However in F-22's favour it's not going to be easy to get a missile kill on it as VLO means radar locks by the missiles will be tougher even before jamming. IR missiles might have more chance of success but its defense systems are very good as well as its natural agility and excess energy and speed so decoying/avoiding these is highly possible. It just maybe that when two VLO fighters meet it will come down to a century old guns dogfight rather than BVR/WVR missiles ;). The F-22 also really needs EOTS/HMS in a MLU to make sure it's not unnecessarily disadvantaged against potential enemy LO aircraft like J-20/Su-57.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 04:51
by steve2267
mas wrote:The F-22 also really needs EOTS/HMS in a MLU to make sure it's not unnecessarily disadvantaged against potential enemy LO aircraft like J-20/Su-57.


Don't forget MADL. F-22 really really really could use MADL so it can play nice with the F-35's. Full Link-16 wouldn't hurt either when playing with 4th gen partners, if that magical mystery drone isn't handy.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 12:20
by mas
They can get round that for the moment in a less stealthy way in one direction at least as F-35 has link 16 transmit and F-22 has link 16 receive ability. I would say the most important update for F-22 is EOTS (II) followed by either the HMS or side-mounted cheek AESA followed by MADL. Finally they (US fighters) all need an aamram replacement. Then F-22 will be ready to go to 2060 unless any new breakthrough technology happens in the meantime.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 03:15
by armedupdate
The biggest problem I see with the F-35 vs the F-22 is that the AMRAAM not homing on to the Raptor's stealth+jamming at stand off ranges. The JSF may rely mainly on midcourse upgrades similar to a command guidance missile which may happen at a range where the F-22 has tracked the JSF on radar.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 08:34
by hornetfinn
When F-35 and F-22 meet as opponents, both will have some interesting advantages and things will definitely be much more difficult for both than fighting against any 4th gen force.

Like already mentioned, F-35 has EOTS and EODAS which together definitely outperform any other IRST and/or targeting pod system. It also possibly has somewhat lower RCS and thermal signature. One important thing is the superior human-machine interface with HMD and high resolution spherical SA. F-35 pilot would likely have better understanding of the overall situation, especially in complex situations.

F-22 on the other hand has superior speed and high speed acceleration along with higher T/W ratio. I think the higher speed will be of little value against F-35 (although they might try some high speed slashing attacks), but acceleration might be very useful. It also has larger radar which would give it slight detection range advantage (about 15-20 percent longer if components are identical). One important thing is the maturity of the system and experience of the pilots in using their aircraft. F-35 is still maturing and pilots are learning to use them.

I predict the combat between the two is very difficult. First eerie silence in sensors when the aircraft enter the combat area and then suddenly some detections and some unstable tracks at rather short range. Both will find it very difficult to target and engage the other and there will always be nasty surprises when opposing jets suddenly appear from nowhere. I think it will be very exhausting to pilots.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 18:14
by mixelflick
So has anything been said as to how the F-35 performed?

Ala the 20:1 kill ratio seen at a prior red flag??

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 19:36
by SpudmanWP
Don't forget that the F-35 has superior (ie 3x) functionality when it comes to ID'ing a target over the F-22.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 20:55
by nutshell
doge wrote:-snip-


You make me feel so proud, little daman fat turkey!

The lemon at the very top of the chain and NOTHING can stop it!

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 27 Jan 2018, 14:22
by spazsinbad
USAF Begins Massive GPS Blackouts In The Western US During Largest Ever Air War Drill
26 Jan 2018 Tyler Durden

"The United States Air Force is launching its largest-ever three-week premier set of air war drills, called Red Flag 18-1, starting on Friday and will conclude February 16, said the 99th Air Base Wing Public Affairs.

On January 26, the air war drill, known as Red Flag, officially kicked off at Nellis Air Force Base, 20-miles outside of Las Vegas. Base officials have warned residents of increased military aircraft activity due to aircraft departing from Nellis Air Force Base twice-a-day to conduct war drills on the Nevada Test and Training Range.

“We’re trying a few new and different things with Red Flag 18-1,” said Col Michael Mathes, 414th Combat Training Squadron commander. “It’s the largest Red Flag ever with the largest number of participants, highlighting the balance of training efficiency with mission effectiveness.”

The drill involves a variety of attack, fighter and bomber aircraft as well as participants from the U.S. Air Force, U.S. Navy, U.S. Army, and Marine Corps. Foreign participants include Royal Australian Air Force and the Royal Air Force....

...the USAF is going to “blackout GPS over the sprawling Nevada Test and Training Range,” said the Drive, which will provide realistic war-like conditions to challenge aircrews.

Flying.com reports the drills at the Nevada Test and Training Range will cause rolling GPS blackouts for the vast portions of the Western United States from January 26 through February 18. All GPS-equipped aircraft operating in the Western United States should be prepared for possible navigation failure in the region...." [details at URL]

Source: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01- ... -war-drill

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 27 Jan 2018, 15:32
by white_lightning35
Any word on f-35's participating?

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 27 Jan 2018, 16:07
by tailgate
Could you imagine flying a legacy jet and then all of a sudden having indounds from several positions in the sphere from things you didn’t even know where there or can’t see, sounds like fun......memories

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 27 Jan 2018, 18:51
by rheonomic
white_lightning35 wrote:Any word on f-35's participating?


A bit of brief Googling seems to indicate "no", but probably won't know for sure until it's over.

There's always the 6th WPS at Nellis and the ITF at Edwards if they need someone close to come over and play...

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2018, 15:06
by mixelflick
"It just maybe that when two VLO fighters meet it will come down to a century old guns dogfight"

Perhaps.

But surely the US has some Trump card for the F-22 if Turkey pulls an Iran and Turkish F-35's come up against F-22's?

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2018, 18:48
by tailgate
Hmmmm, good point.....there is a reason the 22 is still banned for export sales :D

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2018, 23:39
by lbk000
mixelflick wrote:But surely the US has some Trump card for the F-22 if Turkey pulls an Iran and Turkish F-35's come up against F-22's?

I suspect the leash for the F-35 is in logistical support -- how long can they keep them flying disconnected from ALIS?

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 00:11
by spazsinbad
F-35 Aircraft can be not connected to ALIS for a month IIRC (I'll look it up) however if real spares are not made available then what then? Other than onsite maintenance will have to be devised. No one is going to jump ship with orphan F-35s.
Could Connectivity Failure Ground F-35? It's Complicated
27 Apr 2016 Lara Seligman

"...Individual squadrons operate locally with a server called the Standard Operating Unit (SOU), which communicates with that nation’s CPE [each partner nation has its own server, called the Central Point of Entry]. Squadrons can operate independently and store data for about 30 days without connecting to the partner nation’s CPE, Scott said. Then, when a connection is re-established, the SOU uploads the stored data to the CPE...."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /83589006/

GO HERE for the rest: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=29065&p=332855&hilit=ALIS+Central#p332855

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 06:45
by neptune
http://alert5.com/2018/01/29/video-of-r ... ellis-afb/

Video of RAAF EA-18G incident at Nellis AFB

A RAAF EA-18G caught fire during take-off at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada on Jan. 27. KTNV Channel 13 Las Vegas has a video of the incident. "NOTHING THERE"

UPDATE AT 2:30 P.M.:

According to Nellis Air Force Base officials, the "incident" on Saturday was an aborted takeoff. The aircraft subsequently caught fire. The cause of the incident is under investigation.

ORIGINAL STORY

Nellis Air Force Base officials say that a military aircraft experienced an "incident" during takeoff around 10:45 a.m. Saturday. Emergency crews were still at the scene as of 12:40 p.m. No serious injuries were reported. More information will be released to the public as it becomes available.
:(

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 07:01
by Dragon029
Yep, engine failure that resulted in a fire; no word yet on just how damaged it is (all pictures and images are from far away), but there's soot going up the vertical stabilisers and it did go off the runway as well. With only 12 Growlers in the RAAF you can bet they'll do all they can to bring it back into service.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 07:05
by spazsinbad
RAAF Growler catches fire after takeoff incident during Exercise Red Flag
28 Jan 2019 AustAviation

"An apparent engine failure has seen an RAAF EA-18G Growler catch fire after an aborted takeoff from Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada on Saturday morning US time. “Defence can confirm an incident involving an EA-18G Growler at Nellis Air Force Base during Exercise Red Flag. Royal Australian Air Force personnel are safe and no serious injuries have been sustained,” a Department of Defence statement released shortly before midday on Sunday (Australian time) confirmed.

“Defence is currently working with the United States Air Force to investigate and will provide an update with further details once known.” The Growler’s crew, comprising a pilot and an electronic warfare officer, were able to exit the jet on the ground without ejecting." [This ORIGINAL story has been updated - so go there maybe]

Source: http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/0 ... -incident/


Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 07:27
by Dragon029
Here's a new, closer-up picture of the Growler; definitely doesn't look good:

Image

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 08:27
by spazsinbad
That won't buff out - some very expensive avionics are toast eh. Will be a good 'fix damage training' airframe back home.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 13:40
by tailgate
Agree, more than a little soot.......got that instructional trainer they were looking for. Good to here no injuries.. :salute: :salute:

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 14:06
by mixelflick
lbk000 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:But surely the US has some Trump card for the F-22 if Turkey pulls an Iran and Turkish F-35's come up against F-22's?

I suspect the leash for the F-35 is in logistical support -- how long can they keep them flying disconnected from ALIS?


Good guess, but it has to be something more than this. It must have some electronic advantage over the F-35 to use in said contingencies. We already know all about its kinematic advantages. Has to be something more substantial than ALIS, I'd imagine much more substantantial - and not just pilot training...

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 14:23
by botsing
mixelflick wrote:Good guess, but it has to be something more than this. It must have some electronic advantage over the F-35 to use in said contingencies. We already know all about its kinematic advantages. Has to be something more substantial than ALIS, I'd imagine much more substantantial - and not just pilot training...

What about knowing ALL weakspots of the F-35? That in itself should be more than enough to counter it

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 16:04
by gc
Much classified capability lies in software that can easily be removed for export aircraft destined for less reliable partners. And i am sure there is some ways to completely remove all software ie. format their whole avionics computer through some backdoor approach and reduce their jets to static display full scale models if security concerns are serious enough.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 16:51
by spazsinbad
gc wrote:Much classified capability lies in software that can easily be removed for export aircraft destined for less reliable partners. And i am sure there is some ways to completely remove all software ie. format their whole avionics computer through some backdoor approach and reduce their jets to static display full scale models if security concerns are serious enough.

:devil: Aaahhh that KILL SWITCH again. COOL. Mebbe we can sell our pre-cooked Growler to CANADUH!? :doh:

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 18:10
by white_lightning35
Well this whole affair is unfortunate. There aren't many growlers to go around.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 18:31
by blindpilot
white_lightning35 wrote:Well this whole affair is unfortunate. There aren't many growlers to go around.


Maybee ... They can pull some uncooked pieces out and hook them into a "pre-wired" F?

BP

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 01:13
by neptune
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-445287/


Nellis blaze damages Australian EA-18G Growler


BY: Craig Hoyle
29 January, 2018

London
Both crew members of a Royal Australian Air Force Boeing EA-18G Growler escaped serious injury when their aircraft caught fire at Nellis AFB, Nevada on 27 January. Confirming the incident via a Twitter post, Australian defense minister Marise Payne said it had occurred "on the runway during take-off," and added: "All personnel are safe, and an inquiry has commenced." Images of the aircraft posted on social media show the EA-18G's rear fuselage section as having been extensively damaged by fire, most notably around its starboard GE Aviation F414 engine. Its crew exited the cockpit without having to use their ejection seats.

Four of the RAAF's electronic warfare aircraft had touched down at the US Air Force base several days before the incident, to participate in the Red Flag 18-01 exercise. The commitment marks Australia's first international exercise involving the Growler. Canberra had acquired 12 of the type for use by its 6 Sqn, with the last examples having arrived at its Amberley base in Queensland in 2017.

Australia's Red Flag detachment – which totals around 340 RAAF personnel – also includes a Boeing E-7A Wedgetail airborne early warning and control system platform and a Lockheed Martin AP-3C Orion surveillance aircraft. To run between 29 January and 16 February, Red Flag 18-01 also involves multiple types from the US services, plus Eurofighter Typhoons from the UK Royal Air Force.
:)

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 04:48
by spazsinbad
Personally IDA thunk USNInews was better informed but PROLLY only from the USN side of fings -but hey- TWO of US only.
Navy Monitoring Results of Australian EA-18G Growler Fire Investigation
29 Jan 2018 Ben Werner

"The U.S. Navy is monitoring [YA THINK?] an incident involving a Royal Australian Air Force EA-18G Growler electronic warfare aircraft that caught fire during the Red Flag multi-national exercise at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada over the weekend.

According to news reports and a U.S. Air Force statement, the Growler experienced an engine failure during take-off and skidded off the runway, reportedly being engulfed in flames. Local television stations broadcast footage of the blackened aircraft sitting off the runway. The pilot was able to eject [sorry no cigar - also two crew] from the aircraft, and no injuries were reported....

...“The U.S. Navy is watching the Red Flag incident with interest,” Cmdr. Ron Flanders, public affairs officer for the Commander of Naval Air Forces told USNI News. “Our Growler operations continue. When the Australians complete their investigation, we’ll take a look at the findings and assess if any actions are necessary.”..."

Source: https://news.usni.org/2018/01/29/navy-m ... estigation

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 04:51
by steve2267
Uncontained turbine or compressor blade failure that punctured fuel tanks / lines or hydraulic lines leading to the fire?

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 04:59
by spazsinbad
We can guess and guess and guess - you know the drill - unless an official says more we don't know. Accident investigation may take time due nature of aircraft etc. Another possibility are HOT BRAKES (remember take off weight) I was going to look at Growler/Shornet NATOPS but anyone can do that. Also was going to see if NELLIS has arrestor gear - I guess - YEP.

Growler EA-18G Preliminary NATOPS May 2008: https://info.publicintelligence.net/E18-G-000.pdf (22Mb)

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 05:04
by steve2267
I thought aircraft design criteria are such that a proper design should preclude hot brakes from torching the whole aircraft? Sure, you may blow the tire, maybe set it on fire, but the whole aircraft?

Or am I confusing commercial aircraft design criteria with tactical aviation criteria?

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 05:12
by spazsinbad
I do not know what you claim - I look at miljet manuals. HOT brakes usually require special handling by all concerned. Often there is a 'hot brake' area where aircraft with same can go to cool them down before OTHER ACTIONS take place....

BTW it is a bit tough to 'all of a sudden' be an 'expert' in an unfamiliar aircraft. NATOPS is the key - takes time to find/ digest info so here is a start: two pages about 'ground fires' NOT RUNWAY TAKE OFF FIRES so there is more to come...

NELLIS AFB does have short/long field arrest gear as per this googie (egg) screenshot below.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 05:37
by spazsinbad
Pages from Growler NATOX will shortly follow - meanwhile some text - NOTE there are NO HARD & FAST RULES - one plans for take off emergencies beforehand to ruminate on what could be done etc. The backseater should be involved - CRM.
"14.2 ABORT
Maximum planned abort speed is dependent on ambient conditions, gross weight, runway length, and runway and/or braking conditions. However, the decision to abort depends on the nature and severity of the emergency.

Published maximum abort speeds for the existing conditions should allow the aircraft to be stopped within the runway remaining without the use of long field arresting gear. For extreme emergencies, the availability of long field arresting gear may influence the decision to abort. For other, less critical emergencies, the decision to abort or continue the takeoff is crucial. Successfully stopping a heavy weight aircraft on a high speed abort may prove to be a more extreme emergency than continuing a takeoff with the given malfunction. No rule can be made to cover every situation, so good judgment and common sense should be used. A thorough preflight briefing of abort contingencies should aid the pilot in making a timely abort decision.

Once the decision to abort is made, the amount of runway remaining dictates braking technique and the decision to take any long field gear. After brakes are applied, stabilator braking with up to full aft stick is extremely effective in aiding deceleration. At heavy takeoff gross weight, excessive brake heating, melted wheel assembly fuze plugs, and/or blown tires should be anticipated. If the long field gear is required to stop the aircraft, inform the tower and/or other members of the flight as soon as possible. Lower the hook in time for it to fully extend. If the aircraft cannot be stopped in the runway remaining, the decision whether or not to eject must be made. If in doubt, eject prior to the aircraft leaving the prepared surface...."

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 05:58
by spazsinbad
Nellis AFB has BAK-12 arrest gear on main runways:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... iagram.gif

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 09:06
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:Nellis AFB has BAK-12 arrest gear on main runways:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... iagram.gif


....the a/c was "shortly" past rwy 03L BAK-12 area (533'/ stb turnoff) and "tail hook is extended"
:)

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 09:23
by spazsinbad
Is the hook down because of what? Hydraulic pressure nil? Pilot put it down - someone else. Maybe it was useless if the aircraft was OFF the runway before reaching the arrestor gear - maybe he hoped to catch some crabs? I can jest because the crew and anyone else are OK. Who knows but speculate away. Did the engine fail catastrophically causing the fire, OR a hydraulic leak that was ignited by hot brakes, that caused loss of directly control (NATOPS gives clues to all kinds of things) and I'll stop now. I gather the pilots were experienced and had the clues to check the take off charts for the runway altitude and temperature/pressure etc ad nauseam.

Forgot about da FOD - coulda bin on the runway or even in the intake only to be sucked in by engine at FULL POWER!?

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 11:33
by element1loop
Another possibility - aircraft in ground effect, gear still down, right compressor let's go, ruptures oil or fuel feed, no positive rate, heavy with fuel and stores, plus assymetric thrust, aircraft settles heavily on right mains first, blows right tire, skew-if, rolls off hard surface, hot metal + sparks burns leaking engine fluid spilt under right side of jet. Right side jacked up, new wheel installed, tugged away.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 18:57
by spazsinbad
A strong suggestion on the ether is that the right hand engine was the cause of the issues unfolding during take off.

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 04:26
by spazsinbad
Red Flag combat exercise at Nellis Air Force Base extended
13 Feb 2018 Madelyn Reese

"...Accident recap
Alsop also addressed an on-board fire that caused the aborted takeoff of the Royal Australian Air Force’s EA-18G Growler last month. The incident occurred around 10:45 a.m. on Jan. 27 on the base’s flight line. No serious injuries were reported in the incident. “The crew did an amazing job. They conducted an emergency abort and brought the aircraft to a safe stop,” Alsop said “We then had a very rapid response from the Nellis first responders, the fire brigade here. They were quite astounding actually.”

The two crewmembers were uninjured, though both were “a little shaken,” Alsop said. He declined to provide specifics about the accident, citing the ongoing investigation into the cause, but said that he was confident “we had a particular component failure on one of the engines.” “We are confident we have identified what we think is the likely cause,” he said. The EA-18G aircraft resumed flying mid-last week...."

Source: https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/mili ... -extended/

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 16:26
by Gums
Salute!

Engine components striking the fuel tanks is a good possibility. Prolly the cause of the fire, just like the Stubby that caught fire here when turbine or compressor disk failed.

Another good possibility is a locked brake as I had one day landing my Sluf.

The right main tire blew and then the wheel was ground down enuf to cut the brake hydraulic lines and the sparks set it on fire. Was able to keep going straight using NWS. Tower is screaming at me that I am on fire, oh! This is not good, but luckily a maintenance truck in the de-arm areaI sees the evetn unfold and races out on the rwy toward me. I let down over the other side using the chute harness straps after shutting the motor down. Then haul a$$ away. Looking back from the grass, the maintenance dude is using a regular fire extinguisher and bravely marching in while spraying the wheel well fire. Gotta love it. It works and we saved the plane and also found the cause of the locked brake. Heh heh, all in a day's work, huh?

Since the 70's, seems that all our fighters had fuze plugs on the wheel assembly to keep the whole thing from exploding when hot. Our early days in the Viper had several "blowout plugs" work when we had hot brakes, and we had many in the beginning. The sucker had too much thrust at idle, and we had to incorporate a "reduced idle thrust" ( RIT) mod that basically opened the burner nozzles all the way and tweaked the rpm a bit. We also learned braking techniques that helped. The checklist and dash-one even had a chart that showed brake energy values that took into account taxi distance back to the ramp. So sometimes it was better to do a mid-field turn off and reduce taxi distance.

Boy, but those early times in a new jet were fun.

Gums sends...

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2018, 01:35
by spazsinbad
Nothing really new in this Australian TV commercial channel news report except 'USAF decided to share Growler with us'.
RAAF Growlers make spectacular return to sky in Exercise Red Flag
17 Feb 2018 Robert Penfold

VIDEO from which text has been excerpted.

Source: https://www.9news.com.au/national/2018/ ... r-jet-fire

Re: F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2018, 21:57
by spazsinbad
ON page 1 this thread there is info about ORANGE Flag.
F-35 Participates in Orange Flag Exercise
02 Mar 2018 Jeff Babione

"The U.S. military just wrapped up one of its largest exercises in California, involving dozens of aircraft -- old and new. 5th generation and legacy fighters from three branches of the U.S. armed forces took to the skies over the Mojave Desert for one of the largest testing exercises of its kind.

Orange Flag, a mock battle in the sky designed to push more than two dozen fighter jets to their technical limits was the latest exercise for the F-35 to show how it revolutionizes the battlespace making everything around it better.

CBS posted a video highlighting the F-35 and F-22 involvement, including some great footage from a KC-135 tanker...."

CBS Video: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/warplanes- ... echnology/

Source: https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a6 ... 3_2_18.pdf (234Kb)