F-35A Participates in Checkered Flag 18-1 [as Aggressor]

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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spazsinbad

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 04:48

Personally IDA thunk USNInews was better informed but PROLLY only from the USN side of fings -but hey- TWO of US only.
Navy Monitoring Results of Australian EA-18G Growler Fire Investigation
29 Jan 2018 Ben Werner

"The U.S. Navy is monitoring [YA THINK?] an incident involving a Royal Australian Air Force EA-18G Growler electronic warfare aircraft that caught fire during the Red Flag multi-national exercise at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada over the weekend.

According to news reports and a U.S. Air Force statement, the Growler experienced an engine failure during take-off and skidded off the runway, reportedly being engulfed in flames. Local television stations broadcast footage of the blackened aircraft sitting off the runway. The pilot was able to eject [sorry no cigar - also two crew] from the aircraft, and no injuries were reported....

...“The U.S. Navy is watching the Red Flag incident with interest,” Cmdr. Ron Flanders, public affairs officer for the Commander of Naval Air Forces told USNI News. “Our Growler operations continue. When the Australians complete their investigation, we’ll take a look at the findings and assess if any actions are necessary.”..."

Source: https://news.usni.org/2018/01/29/navy-m ... estigation
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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steve2267

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 04:51

Uncontained turbine or compressor blade failure that punctured fuel tanks / lines or hydraulic lines leading to the fire?
Take an F-16, add a dollop of A-7, a big gob of F-22, sprinkle on some AV-8B, stir well, then bake. What do you get? An F-35.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 04:59

We can guess and guess and guess - you know the drill - unless an official says more we don't know. Accident investigation may take time due nature of aircraft etc. Another possibility are HOT BRAKES (remember take off weight) I was going to look at Growler/Shornet NATOPS but anyone can do that. Also was going to see if NELLIS has arrestor gear - I guess - YEP.

Growler EA-18G Preliminary NATOPS May 2008: https://info.publicintelligence.net/E18-G-000.pdf (22Mb)
Last edited by spazsinbad on 30 Jan 2018, 05:10, edited 1 time in total.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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steve2267

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 05:04

I thought aircraft design criteria are such that a proper design should preclude hot brakes from torching the whole aircraft? Sure, you may blow the tire, maybe set it on fire, but the whole aircraft?

Or am I confusing commercial aircraft design criteria with tactical aviation criteria?
Take an F-16, add a dollop of A-7, a big gob of F-22, sprinkle on some AV-8B, stir well, then bake. What do you get? An F-35.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 05:12

I do not know what you claim - I look at miljet manuals. HOT brakes usually require special handling by all concerned. Often there is a 'hot brake' area where aircraft with same can go to cool them down before OTHER ACTIONS take place....

BTW it is a bit tough to 'all of a sudden' be an 'expert' in an unfamiliar aircraft. NATOPS is the key - takes time to find/ digest info so here is a start: two pages about 'ground fires' NOT RUNWAY TAKE OFF FIRES so there is more to come...

NELLIS AFB does have short/long field arrest gear as per this googie (egg) screenshot below.
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Ground Fire Brakes Growler NATOPS E18-G pp2.pdf
(47.77 KiB) Downloaded 45 times
NELLISafbGoogleEarth.jpg
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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spazsinbad

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 05:37

Pages from Growler NATOX will shortly follow - meanwhile some text - NOTE there are NO HARD & FAST RULES - one plans for take off emergencies beforehand to ruminate on what could be done etc. The backseater should be involved - CRM.
"14.2 ABORT
Maximum planned abort speed is dependent on ambient conditions, gross weight, runway length, and runway and/or braking conditions. However, the decision to abort depends on the nature and severity of the emergency.

Published maximum abort speeds for the existing conditions should allow the aircraft to be stopped within the runway remaining without the use of long field arresting gear. For extreme emergencies, the availability of long field arresting gear may influence the decision to abort. For other, less critical emergencies, the decision to abort or continue the takeoff is crucial. Successfully stopping a heavy weight aircraft on a high speed abort may prove to be a more extreme emergency than continuing a takeoff with the given malfunction. No rule can be made to cover every situation, so good judgment and common sense should be used. A thorough preflight briefing of abort contingencies should aid the pilot in making a timely abort decision.

Once the decision to abort is made, the amount of runway remaining dictates braking technique and the decision to take any long field gear. After brakes are applied, stabilator braking with up to full aft stick is extremely effective in aiding deceleration. At heavy takeoff gross weight, excessive brake heating, melted wheel assembly fuze plugs, and/or blown tires should be anticipated. If the long field gear is required to stop the aircraft, inform the tower and/or other members of the flight as soon as possible. Lower the hook in time for it to fully extend. If the aircraft cannot be stopped in the runway remaining, the decision whether or not to eject must be made. If in doubt, eject prior to the aircraft leaving the prepared surface...."
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Take Off Emergencies Growler NATOPS E18-G pp2.pdf
(58.31 KiB) Downloaded 73 times
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 05:58

Nellis AFB has BAK-12 arrest gear on main runways:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... iagram.gif
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NellisAFBairfieldDiagram.gif
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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neptune

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 09:06

spazsinbad wrote:Nellis AFB has BAK-12 arrest gear on main runways:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... iagram.gif


....the a/c was "shortly" past rwy 03L BAK-12 area (533'/ stb turnoff) and "tail hook is extended"
:)
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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 09:23

Is the hook down because of what? Hydraulic pressure nil? Pilot put it down - someone else. Maybe it was useless if the aircraft was OFF the runway before reaching the arrestor gear - maybe he hoped to catch some crabs? I can jest because the crew and anyone else are OK. Who knows but speculate away. Did the engine fail catastrophically causing the fire, OR a hydraulic leak that was ignited by hot brakes, that caused loss of directly control (NATOPS gives clues to all kinds of things) and I'll stop now. I gather the pilots were experienced and had the clues to check the take off charts for the runway altitude and temperature/pressure etc ad nauseam.

Forgot about da FOD - coulda bin on the runway or even in the intake only to be sucked in by engine at FULL POWER!?
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 11:33

Another possibility - aircraft in ground effect, gear still down, right compressor let's go, ruptures oil or fuel feed, no positive rate, heavy with fuel and stores, plus assymetric thrust, aircraft settles heavily on right mains first, blows right tire, skew-if, rolls off hard surface, hot metal + sparks burns leaking engine fluid spilt under right side of jet. Right side jacked up, new wheel installed, tugged away.
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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 18:57

A strong suggestion on the ether is that the right hand engine was the cause of the issues unfolding during take off.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 04:26

Red Flag combat exercise at Nellis Air Force Base extended
13 Feb 2018 Madelyn Reese

"...Accident recap
Alsop also addressed an on-board fire that caused the aborted takeoff of the Royal Australian Air Force’s EA-18G Growler last month. The incident occurred around 10:45 a.m. on Jan. 27 on the base’s flight line. No serious injuries were reported in the incident. “The crew did an amazing job. They conducted an emergency abort and brought the aircraft to a safe stop,” Alsop said “We then had a very rapid response from the Nellis first responders, the fire brigade here. They were quite astounding actually.”

The two crewmembers were uninjured, though both were “a little shaken,” Alsop said. He declined to provide specifics about the accident, citing the ongoing investigation into the cause, but said that he was confident “we had a particular component failure on one of the engines.” “We are confident we have identified what we think is the likely cause,” he said. The EA-18G aircraft resumed flying mid-last week...."

Source: https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/mili ... -extended/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 16:26

Salute!

Engine components striking the fuel tanks is a good possibility. Prolly the cause of the fire, just like the Stubby that caught fire here when turbine or compressor disk failed.

Another good possibility is a locked brake as I had one day landing my Sluf.

The right main tire blew and then the wheel was ground down enuf to cut the brake hydraulic lines and the sparks set it on fire. Was able to keep going straight using NWS. Tower is screaming at me that I am on fire, oh! This is not good, but luckily a maintenance truck in the de-arm areaI sees the evetn unfold and races out on the rwy toward me. I let down over the other side using the chute harness straps after shutting the motor down. Then haul a$$ away. Looking back from the grass, the maintenance dude is using a regular fire extinguisher and bravely marching in while spraying the wheel well fire. Gotta love it. It works and we saved the plane and also found the cause of the locked brake. Heh heh, all in a day's work, huh?

Since the 70's, seems that all our fighters had fuze plugs on the wheel assembly to keep the whole thing from exploding when hot. Our early days in the Viper had several "blowout plugs" work when we had hot brakes, and we had many in the beginning. The sucker had too much thrust at idle, and we had to incorporate a "reduced idle thrust" ( RIT) mod that basically opened the burner nozzles all the way and tweaked the rpm a bit. We also learned braking techniques that helped. The checklist and dash-one even had a chart that showed brake energy values that took into account taxi distance back to the ramp. So sometimes it was better to do a mid-field turn off and reduce taxi distance.

Boy, but those early times in a new jet were fun.

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"God in your guts, good men at your back, wings that stay on - and Tally Ho!"
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spazsinbad

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Unread post18 Feb 2018, 01:35

Nothing really new in this Australian TV commercial channel news report except 'USAF decided to share Growler with us'.
RAAF Growlers make spectacular return to sky in Exercise Red Flag
17 Feb 2018 Robert Penfold

VIDEO from which text has been excerpted.

Source: https://www.9news.com.au/national/2018/ ... r-jet-fire
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post12 Mar 2018, 21:57

ON page 1 this thread there is info about ORANGE Flag.
F-35 Participates in Orange Flag Exercise
02 Mar 2018 Jeff Babione

"The U.S. military just wrapped up one of its largest exercises in California, involving dozens of aircraft -- old and new. 5th generation and legacy fighters from three branches of the U.S. armed forces took to the skies over the Mojave Desert for one of the largest testing exercises of its kind.

Orange Flag, a mock battle in the sky designed to push more than two dozen fighter jets to their technical limits was the latest exercise for the F-35 to show how it revolutionizes the battlespace making everything around it better.

CBS posted a video highlighting the F-35 and F-22 involvement, including some great footage from a KC-135 tanker...."

CBS Video: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/warplanes- ... echnology/

Source: https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a6 ... 3_2_18.pdf (234Kb)
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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