F-35 Cyber Attack

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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post29 Nov 2017, 12:11

I know this topic is one that we have little information on and there is quite a bit of speculation of what exactly does "cyber attack" constitute. I've been reading "Dark Territory" by Fred Kaplan, (a good read which I recommend) at the behest of my BC for OPD. To frame this, the book is about the history of cyber warfare with the US and how we've used it to leverage advantages against others and how it's been leveraged against us. Overall, it's quite fascinating.

More to the point of the subject...One part of the book talks about cyber/information attacks against the Russians and how we had the capability during the cold war to sow disinformation into their networks, ie. false orders, intel, etc. In regards to the F-35, I wonder if this what they mean by the APG-81's capability to perform cyber attack. Imagine if an F-35 had the capability to pass false information into the link-16 equivalent of adversary aircraft, which would then propagate throughout the network. If we (hypothetically) had the ability to penetrate the enemy's equivalent of their link-16, we could generate false targets, strike packages, etc. This would be far more effective than spoofing radar returns through ECM.

What do you guys think?
Last edited by kimjongnumbaun on 29 Nov 2017, 12:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Dragon029

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Unread post29 Nov 2017, 12:45

I think there's a reason that cyber is arguably the most secretive area of military operations these days.

While I don't know how accurate Zero Days was, Nitro Zeus sounded like a real kicker, and Suter (made by the same company that made the F-35's EW / cyber suite) sounds interesting as well, particularly the claims in regards to Operation Orchard.
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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post29 Nov 2017, 13:46

Dragon029 wrote:I think there's a reason that cyber is arguably the most secretive area of military operations these days.

While I don't know how accurate Zero Days was, Nitro Zeus sounded like a real kicker, and Suter (made by the same company that made the F-35's EW / cyber suite) sounds interesting as well, particularly the claims in regards to Operation Orchard.


I'm not familiar with Zero Days so you'll have to school me.
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Dragon029

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Unread post29 Nov 2017, 14:27

As it says in the first link, it was a documentary.
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blindpilot

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Unread post29 Nov 2017, 16:39

kimjongnumbaun wrote:I know this topic is one that we have little information on ....
What do you guys think?


I think - on EW at any level.

Those who know will not say ...
and those that say ... do not know.

That's about all there is to say of any meaningful value on the subject. Everything else is worthless.

MHO,
BP
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rheonomic

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Unread post30 Nov 2017, 03:11

blindpilot wrote:
kimjongnumbaun wrote:I know this topic is one that we have little information on ....
What do you guys think?


I think - on EW at any level.

Those who know will not say ...
and those that say ... do not know.

That's about all there is to say of any meaningful value on the subject. Everything else is worthless.

MHO,
BP


This. Also applies to anything cyber or RCS related.
u = (CB)⁻¹(cvdt_des - CAx)
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popcorn

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Unread post30 Nov 2017, 03:45

Posted on these boards some years back.

http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... -Game.aspx

USAF’s Got Cyber Game

—John A. Tirpak9/22/2014
The Air Force’s space and cyber capabilities in combat are so lethal that it’s not safe to practice with them in wargames, said Air Combat Command chief Gen. Mike Hostage. Speaking at AFA's Air & Space Conference last week, Hostage told reporters he has to limit the role played by space and cyber forces during exercises. If they were allowed to play for the whole drill, “somebody’s going to get hurt,” Hostage said. “They are so effective that they would negate the red air’s ability to do much of anything” in a Red Flag-type exercise, “and we wouldn’t get the air training that we’re spending a lot of money to get.” Unleashed, cyber warriors can “blind the adversary, … make them run together,” and reduce the number of enemies the physical forces have to fight. His push toward more simulated Red Flag-type wargames will “let the aviators learn the impact, the strength of what (space and cyber) can do,” he said.
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"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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optimist

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Unread post30 Nov 2017, 05:36

Take your iPhone with wifi/usb data notebook and the phone network. Think of all that can be done and times by 10
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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post30 Nov 2017, 07:43

popcorn wrote:Posted on these boards some years back.

http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... -Game.aspx

USAF’s Got Cyber Game

—John A. Tirpak9/22/2014
The Air Force’s space and cyber capabilities in combat are so lethal that it’s not safe to practice with them in wargames, said Air Combat Command chief Gen. Mike Hostage. Speaking at AFA's Air & Space Conference last week, Hostage told reporters he has to limit the role played by space and cyber forces during exercises. If they were allowed to play for the whole drill, “somebody’s going to get hurt,” Hostage said. “They are so effective that they would negate the red air’s ability to do much of anything” in a Red Flag-type exercise, “and we wouldn’t get the air training that we’re spending a lot of money to get.” Unleashed, cyber warriors can “blind the adversary, … make them run together,” and reduce the number of enemies the physical forces have to fight. His push toward more simulated Red Flag-type wargames will “let the aviators learn the impact, the strength of what (space and cyber) can do,” he said.
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Here is an excerpt from the book. I really had never imagined capabilities of this nature or the creativeness of the team.

IMG_3799.JPG
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Unread post30 Nov 2017, 11:57

Pretty scary stuff. As much as we talk about the F-35's revolutionary capabilities we still usually refer to it's kinetic abilities. Cyber is still kind of nebulous to most of us, not involved in the field. We can only pray the United States is on top of the field, in both offensive, and defensive warfare. We commonly hear that the U.S. is rated 1st, followed by Israel, Russia, China, and Iran, with NK having significant capabilities.

I don't know where that leaves our NATO allies, or Japan? The problem is that we won't know for sure who's cyber warfare technology is most effective until the shooting starts. If our assumptions are wrong we could end up with some serious upsets. A war almost never goes according to plan. Almost nothing about WWII went according to prewar doctrinal thinking. Cyber warfare could be a complete wildcard.

Interesting how current thinking is reflected in Sci-fi. In the "Battlestar Galactica" remake in the early 2,000s, the Cylons defeated the Colonials though a cyber attack. They had their pawn put a back door in the Colonials navigational software program. They used it to shutdown the whole Colonial defense network. Vipers dead in space, warships defenseless, whole planets helpless. We can only pray that nothing that crippling ever happens to us, in the real world.
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Unread post30 Nov 2017, 15:43

Is CYBER part of EW? This 'DON BACON' has had enough - great motivational article if ever the USAF needed it - go team.

Spectrum (EW) Should Be A Warfighting Domain: Rep. [Don] Bacon 29 Nov 2017 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.
https://breakingdefense.com/2017/11/spe ... rep-bacon/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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blindpilot

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Unread post30 Nov 2017, 18:39

spazsinbad wrote:Is CYBER part of EW? This 'DON BACON' has had enough - great motivational article if ever the USAF needed it - go team.

Spectrum (EW) Should Be A Warfighting Domain: Rep. [Don] Bacon 29 Nov 2017 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.
https://breakingdefense.com/2017/11/spe ... rep-bacon/


Along the lines of the historical context you reference here, and looking at cyber versus his summary basically on spectrum EW, ...
I can say that I was already working with offensive and defensive techniques in the cyber realm(trojans/microwave links etc.) at US Space Command over 25 years ago, when we were also Alpha testing OS2 LM/Windows 3.1/NT at the very infancy of the internet. It was "a thing" back when I personally owned an entire Class C IP block. (who'd a thunk the net would get over 4 billion devices.. not us then :D )

Cyber has been around a while, even at 300 bps. (think 20 year old Angelina Jolie- "Hackers" and Rhyolite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquacade_(satellite) ) .

So to the original question - ... it hasn't gotten less intense.

FWIW,
BP
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Unread post30 Nov 2017, 21:51

Thanks 'BP' - go here: Cyber Warriors Fight USAF's Most Active, and Secret, War Jan 2018 Gideon Grudo

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... t-War.aspx
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post01 Dec 2017, 14:01

blindpilot wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Is CYBER part of EW? This 'DON BACON' has had enough - great motivational article if ever the USAF needed it - go team.

Spectrum (EW) Should Be A Warfighting Domain: Rep. [Don] Bacon 29 Nov 2017 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.
https://breakingdefense.com/2017/11/spe ... rep-bacon/


Along the lines of the historical context you reference here, and looking at cyber versus his summary basically on spectrum EW, ...
I can say that I was already working with offensive and defensive techniques in the cyber realm(trojans/microwave links etc.) at US Space Command over 25 years ago, when we were also Alpha testing OS2 LM/Windows 3.1/NT at the very infancy of the internet. It was "a thing" back when I personally owned an entire Class C IP block. (who'd a thunk the net would get over 4 billion devices.. not us then :D )

Cyber has been around a while, even at 300 bps. (think 20 year old Angelina Jolie- "Hackers" and Rhyolite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquacade_(satellite) ) .

So to the original question - ... it hasn't gotten less intense.

FWIW,
BP



After reading this book I am very impressed with what you guys did and were capable of, and that's the unclassified stuff. *tips hat*
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Unread post05 Dec 2017, 01:34

But that works as long as we've a "compatibility" at the layer 1 and 2, possibly even at layer 3.

There's a point where the chain breaks,i think and "hombrew" stuff kicks in.
Guess at that point we should talk about scrambling/jamming; arent we?
Then there's the old good point-to-point...

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