F-35 maneuver review: Zenith of all non-TVC jets

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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gta4

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Unread post04 Oct 2017, 12:19

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cavok

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Unread post04 Oct 2017, 12:44

f-16adf wrote:There is no doubt the EF and Rafale have better performance than the F/A-18C. But,..... I have NEVER, EVER seen an EF or Rafale pull off those high alpha maneuvers like the Charlie Hornet----NEVER.


People are going to respond: yeah, but in testing the Rafale and Gripen were flown to XXX Alpha. That may be true, but those were TESTS, not actual sanctioned squadron performance. The Tomcat was flown to very, very high alpha in VX-4 testing, that does not mean that your average squadron F-14 pilot was allowed to duplicate those maneuvers-


No. (not answering that). Great high AoA capability, for sure. relevant? i do not know.
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gta4

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Unread post05 Oct 2017, 14:22

f-16adf wrote:People are going to respond: yeah, but in testing the Rafale and Gripen were flown to XXX Alpha. That may be true, but those were TESTS, not actual sanctioned squadron performance. The Tomcat was flown to very, very high alpha in VX-4 testing, that does not mean that your average squadron F-14 pilot was allowed to duplicate those maneuvers-


There are two kinds of TESTS:

#1 AOA that could only be reached momentarily. The aircraft can not maintain balance of moment and will be immediately bounced back to low AOA. (i.e. cobra or hook maneuver) The aircraft thus does not have any yaw or roll authority to move the nose around, thus such AOA is not useful in actual air combat.

#2 AOA that could be reached and maintained. The aircraft thus could benefit from proverse yaw effect of aileron and the secondary roll effect from rudders to enhance roll/yaw authority to move the nose around (i.e. J-turn, pirouette maneuver). This is useful in actual air combat.

Remember the original meaning of MANEUVERING: To Move. Reaching high AOA momentarily and getting bounced back to level flight is useless. Reaching high AOA and keep moving nose around is useful. The former bleeds energy and gets no nose pointing (in a cobra maneuver, nose is pitched up and bounced back immediately, neutralizing the total angle of pointing, if you compare the initial and final heading). The latter trades energy with 180deg nose pointing if you compare the initial and final heading.
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geforcerfx

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Unread post05 Oct 2017, 22:02

gta4 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTZz_ME7Hmo&list=PLmcJilFB_tYMmdIWtTp9Sa-TdL5MCEQd7&index=1
F/A-18E vs F-15 dogfihgt


Looks like the hornet got him when he pitched over after that climb, why the eagle thought he would beat the pitch rate idk.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post05 Oct 2017, 22:48

Novice Eagle driver?
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geforcerfx

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Unread post06 Oct 2017, 01:14

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Novice Eagle driver?

Do those exist? :D I figured that was the case, just odd to see to me, you would think the veteran eagle guys would have them up to snuff pretty quick since they train for nothing but a2a.
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steve2267

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Unread post12 Oct 2017, 01:38

Following up on gta4's 2nd post on the first page of this thread, some may find these graphics useful in visualizing the pedal turn and its applicability to BFM / ACM as well as how a pull to high alpha then a velocity vector roll could quickly defeat an opposing aircraft at the merge.

These images were found on this NASA web page: https://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/his ... RV/rd.html

Pedal turn / vertical velocity vector roll (denoted an Offensive Spiral)

108158main_harv_rd4_330.jpg


God's eye view looking down - shows nose pointing threatening bogey

108159main_harv_rd5_330.jpg


Pull to high alpha, then velocity vector roll (NASA web page labels this as a Herbst or J-turn):

(NOTE to reader, you may need to click on the image to see the entire thing, or check for a horizontal scroll bar in your browser below the image.)

87261main_h178_4a.gif


For you (S)hornet drivers out there... can any type of Hornet pull off this sort of high alpha pull / velocity vector roll depicted here? Or was this limited to the HARV vehicle that NASA was playing around with? Any ideas if this could possibly be within the realm of the F-35's bag-o-tricks?
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rheonomic

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Unread post15 Oct 2017, 05:31

steve2267 wrote:Any ideas if this could possibly be within the realm of the F-35's bag-o-tricks?


:whistle:

Rolling around velocity vector is standard. F-35 has good high alpha characteristics...

Actually, if I remember from the X-31 flight tests, while cool the post-stall/high-alpha/TVC stuff advantage was negated pretty quickly once the other aircraft drivers figured out what the X-31 could do and how best to fight it.
u = (CB)⁻¹(cvdt_des - CAx)
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cavok

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Unread post16 Oct 2017, 13:54

steve2267 wrote:Following up on gta4's 2nd post on the first page of this thread, some may find these graphics useful in visualizing the pedal turn and its applicability to BFM / ACM as well as how a pull to high alpha then a velocity vector roll could quickly defeat an opposing aircraft at the merge.

These images were found on this NASA web page: https://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/his ... RV/rd.html

Pedal turn / vertical velocity vector roll (denoted an Offensive Spiral)

108158main_harv_rd4_330.jpg


God's eye view looking down - shows nose pointing threatening bogey

108159main_harv_rd5_330.jpg


Pull to high alpha, then velocity vector roll (NASA web page labels this as a Herbst or J-turn):

(NOTE to reader, you may need to click on the image to see the entire thing, or check for a horizontal scroll bar in your browser below the image.)

87261main_h178_4a.gif


For you (S)hornet drivers out there... can any type of Hornet pull off this sort of high alpha pull / velocity vector roll depicted here? Or was this limited to the HARV vehicle that NASA was playing around with? Any ideas if this could possibly be within the realm of the F-35's bag-o-tricks?


From what i've seen (and i've seen F-35 fly several times in Paris), yes, it should be.
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strykerxo

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Unread post16 Oct 2017, 16:02

steve2267 wrote:For you (S)hornet drivers out there... can any type of Hornet pull off this sort of high alpha pull / velocity vector roll depicted here? Or was this limited to the HARV vehicle that NASA was playing around with? Any ideas if this could possibly be within the realm of the F-35's bag-o-tricks?


Swiss F-18C

ANSWER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf5A13a ... 4&index=25
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cavok

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Unread post17 Oct 2017, 12:21

rheonomic wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Any ideas if this could possibly be within the realm of the F-35's bag-o-tricks?


:whistle:

Rolling around velocity vector is standard. F-35 has good high alpha characteristics...

Actually, if I remember from the X-31 flight tests, while cool the post-stall/high-alpha/TVC stuff advantage was negated pretty quickly once the other aircraft drivers figured out what the X-31 could do and how best to fight it.


Definitely. High AoA manoeuvers can be a nice trick, but easily countered when you know the type and losing too much energy.
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optimist

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Unread post17 Oct 2017, 20:06

cavok wrote:
f-16adf wrote:There is no doubt the EF and Rafale have better performance than the F/A-18C. But,..... I have NEVER, EVER seen an EF or Rafale pull off those high alpha maneuvers like the Charlie Hornet----NEVER.


People are going to respond: yeah, but in testing the Rafale and Gripen were flown to XXX Alpha. That may be true, but those were TESTS, not actual sanctioned squadron performance. The Tomcat was flown to very, very high alpha in VX-4 testing, that does not mean that your average squadron F-14 pilot was allowed to duplicate those maneuvers-


No. (not answering that). Great high AoA capability, for sure. relevant? i do not know.

well if you are going to question the relevance of AoA, because the rafale doesn't have it. You can question the relevance of missiles and radar too. Something else the rafale doesn't have. Even India said that. With the new meteor, doesn't it also have radar range and 2 way coms issues, last I heard?
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nutshell

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Unread post18 Oct 2017, 00:20

It is known that nose point authority (high alpha) is not relevant .

More so irrelevant if high alpha manoeuvring happens in high energy state.

Totally irrelevant.
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alloycowboy

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Unread post18 Oct 2017, 05:25

nutshell wrote:It is known that nose point authority (high alpha) is not relevant .

More so irrelevant if high alpha manoeuvring happens in high energy state.

Totally irrelevant.


Being able to do a high alpha aero braking manuver is very useful should your opponent try a flat or rolling scissors.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scissors
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ricnunes

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Unread post18 Oct 2017, 12:21

nutshell wrote:It is known that nose point authority (high alpha) is not relevant .


I definitely wouldn't say that specially after the advent of all-aspect WVR missiles which the first that I can remember right now was/is the AIM-9L.
If you have all-aspect WVR missiles (which today, basically all are) having the ability to point the nose faster towards an enemy aircraft and thus before the enemy can point his nose towards you may ensure that you'll have a first shot and as such killing the enemy before the enemy can kill you, right?

I understand that today with the advent of HMS and/or other targeting means/systems which allow "360º targeting" (such as DAS in the F-35) that "fast" nose pointing is probably less important than it was, lets say 10-20 years ago. However even with the advent of these new technologies "fast nose pointing" may still give an advantage since the missile would have better performance/kinematics when launched against a target/aircraft in the front (12 ºclock) than if that same target/aircraft if located on the sides (3 or 9 o'clock for example) or rear (6 º'clock) or something in-between.
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