F-35 - N/EMP???

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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Corsair1963

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Unread post11 May 2017, 04:46

Does the F-35 have built in protection against N/EMP??? (nuclear electromagnetic pulse) :?
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spazsinbad

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Unread post11 May 2017, 05:04

I'd imagine (and this question has been asked before with 'YES') that testing for EMP means it is protected against EMP:

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=28948&p=315078&hilit=Electromagnetic+Pulse#p315078
&
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=14244&p=178987&hilit=Electromagnetic+Pulse#p178987

Example F-35s - plus those built in FACOS - go for 3 months E3 [Electromagnetic Environmental Effects] testing including:
"...The [F-35] aircraft will begin three months of Electromagnetic Environmental Effects (EEE)
• Electromagnetic Interference (EMI) detection
• Mobile Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC)
• Electromagnetic Vulnerability (EMV)
• Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP)

Source: http://www.navair.navy.mil/nawcad/index ... F33431A003

Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP)
"Many aircraft must be capable of functioning in a nuclear theater. The nuclear electro-magnetic threat is a fast rise-time, high-amplitude Electro-Magnetic Pulse (EMP) produced by a high-altitude nuclear detonation. EMP is a high intensity (50 kVm), free-field pulse. The coupling of the EMP onto the aircraft produces skin currents, which in turn may be coupled onto cable bundles and wires inside the aircraft. These currents can upset or damage the aircraft or weapon systems electronics."

Source: http://www.navair.navy.mil/nawcad/index ... A04BB0296D
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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blindpilot

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Unread post11 May 2017, 13:54

Corsair1963 wrote:Does the F-35 have built in protection against N/EMP??? (nuclear electromagnetic pulse) :?


As above. Yes.

I find it interesting that this question appears often, as if EMP is a secret problem, that only in the last two years, thanks to the National Enquirer is just coming to the attention of the world.

Well it is becoming an issue with our sorry state of power grid infrastructure. But that's only because no one has stepped up to spend the money to deal with the risk. And with more and more electronic devices being depended on for critical functions, it's about time we do that. But it's not even an issue there if we would suck it up and spend a few pennies.

As to the military, they have known about and prepared since the late 1940's for this, in military equipment. For the record that's about 70 years. We are getting close to not having anyone alive who remembers back when we solved this "problem".

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zhangmdev

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Unread post11 May 2017, 14:46

Radiation Hardening is standard in military/aerospace equipments. Considering satellites/space probes routinely fly into quite hellish electromagnetic environments, like orbiting Jupiter and Saturn, I don't think US is close to loose know-how to counter this threat.
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rheonomic

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Unread post12 May 2017, 01:38

blindpilot wrote:I find it interesting that this question appears often, as if EMP is a secret problem, that only in the last two years, thanks to the National Enquirer is just coming to the attention of the world.


I guess no one remembers "Goldeneye"?

There seems to be a fringe group that obsesses about EMP strikes as some immediate threat.
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Unread post12 May 2017, 23:00

Salute!

Most military stuff has been "hardened" for over 40 or more years.

Sure, some stuff might be degraded, but most wuold still work. e,g, one day my wingie in another Viper had a lightninig strike at the front of the canopy. FLCS lights came on, jet kept flying, radio worked, radar worked, bomb/nav computer worked, .... Reset the FLCS lights and press on.

The big EMP scare concerns attacks upon the industrial countries that have poor protection for infrastructure components such as the power grid, the internet, TV/radio, cell phones, and so forth. Then most home computers would fry. Oh yeah, most autos and trucks built since the 60's would likely be useless.

Many villages in Africa and South America and other places would not notice much and would likely not be attacked in the first place.

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neptune

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Unread post13 May 2017, 00:15

Gums wrote:Salute!

Most military stuff has been "hardened" for over 40 or more years.

Sure, some stuff might be degraded, but most wuold still work. e,g, one day my wingie in another Viper had a lightninig strike at the front of the canopy. FLCS lights came on, jet kept flying, radio worked, radar worked, bomb/nav computer worked, .... Reset the FLCS lights and press on.

The big EMP scare concerns attacks upon the industrial countries that have poor protection for infrastructure components such as the power grid, the internet, TV/radio, cell phones, and so forth. Then most home computers would fry. Oh yeah, most autos and trucks built since the 60's would likely be useless.

Many villages in Africa and South America and other places would not notice much and would likely not be attacked in the first

Gums sends...


...so my 8 track in the 57 Belaire is toast?
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Unread post13 May 2017, 00:30

Your '57 Belaire would be fine. It was '73 or '74 before electronics were added to run the ignition systems. Additionally the radio being a tube set would work as those old tubes could take the pulse and keep on working.
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count_to_10

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Unread post13 May 2017, 01:07

Gums wrote:Salute!

Most military stuff has been "hardened" for over 40 or more years.

Sure, some stuff might be degraded, but most wuold still work. e,g, one day my wingie in another Viper had a lightninig strike at the front of the canopy. FLCS lights came on, jet kept flying, radio worked, radar worked, bomb/nav computer worked, .... Reset the FLCS lights and press on.

The big EMP scare concerns attacks upon the industrial countries that have poor protection for infrastructure components such as the power grid, the internet, TV/radio, cell phones, and so forth. Then most home computers would fry. Oh yeah, most autos and trucks built since the 60's would likely be useless.

Many villages in Africa and South America and other places would not notice much and would likely not be attacked in the first place.

Gums sends...

Another thing is that most things disturbed by EMP are just going to need to be rebooted. It takes a lot more juice to permanently damage things than it takes to knock them out of a normal operating state.
Einstein got it backward: one cannot prevent a war without preparing for it.

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Unread post17 May 2017, 06:39

count_to_10 wrote:
Gums wrote:The big EMP scare concerns attacks upon the industrial countries that have poor protection for infrastructure components such as the power grid, the internet, TV/radio, cell phones, and so forth. Then most home computers would fry. Oh yeah, most autos and trucks built since the 60's would likely be useless.

Gums sends...

Another thing is that most things disturbed by EMP are just going to need to be rebooted. It takes a lot more juice to permanently damage things than it takes to knock them out of a normal operating state.


Yeah mainframes wouldn't even be phased by most emp attacks, personal computers will need a restart, and there is a chance for data loss on a platter drive. Most things have some EMP protection in them, consumer electronics are the most vulnerable, everything else would be back up relatively quickly.
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Unread post17 May 2017, 09:22

We are being told an EMP would wipe out an industrial state. People on the board are saying things would just need a reboot? Would our cars ever start again, or would they need all their electronics replaced? This week N Korea fired a missile that reached an altitude of 1,240 miles. My concern was that it was an EMP weapon that could shut the lights off in Japan, or if launched from a submarine California. Just how damaging would such an attack be?
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Unread post17 May 2017, 10:34

http://futurescience.com/emp.html

Nation-ending EMP attack is a usual theme of scifi/survivalist stories. There is definitely a possibility, if it happens, effect will be seriously ugly. Both US and Soviet did some test 55 years ago. The Soviet test actually knocked out a major power line. Without power, modern interconnected electronic systems will be useless. But the probability of such event is low. "A thin-cased 100 kiloton weapon optimized for gamma ray production detonated 250 to 300 miles above Nebraska"? That is not easy.

People should be more worried about some huge solar storm, another 1859 Carrington event. Activity of the Sun can never be prevented or countered by any means.
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Unread post17 May 2017, 18:42

Salute!

Thanks, zhankg. You sound like from "east europe", but I agree that many horror stories are overblown except one thing - the high tech societies such as U.S., Canada, Britain, Germany, Japan and more will suffer the most. Let's face it - we are spoiled rotten, heh heh.

+++++++

I have just finished reading two EMP "survival" series and one Carrington event that only knocks out the power grid but not your auto fuel injection system. Scary thots, and I have personally seen several cases of extreme power loss and such due to hurricanes down here in Florida. Loss of an auto to a tree and holes in the roof not as bad as no electricity for more than three days. My parents in lower Mississippi had no power for over two weeks and I had to evacuate them the day after Katrina hit. Think insulin and other stuff for 80 year old parents and the crazy 63 year dude that led the escape route, heh heh.

Since I was a child my folks had stored and taught me to have a stash of emergency stuff. Growing up in New Orleans I saw enough storms to last a lifetime. Moving to Florida Gulf Coast I saw more. The big thing is the lack of electricity, and not water. With warning, gasoline is not a problem if you act early. Ditto for propane, but all of us down here use the BBQ enuf to have an extra bottle.

+++++++

Back to the topic:

There could be some problems on some of the avionics in all of the current jets. The biggies should be the engine DEEC and the basic flight condition displays. I assume that the FLCS would be the most protected system, as it was in the original Vipers I flew. I am not sure about the back up engine modes, but the original Viper BUC would do just fine today.

The helmet is what bothers me. That sucker is exposed to the heavens and
I cannot imagine grounding the thing. Hence, I always proposed a basic HUD for lots of things besides cues for a missile launch or bomb delivery.

Gums sends...
Gums
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"God in your guts, good men at your back, wings that stay on - and Tally Ho!"
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Unread post01 Aug 2017, 12:16

Some info on the state of the art in a/c hardening.

https://defensesystems.com/articles/201 ... rfare.aspx

Recent tests show new Air Force tanker can withstand electronic attack

In a threat environment that is rapidly expanding into the electromagnetic spectrum, the KC-46A Pegasus has just successfully proved its immunity to electromagnetic pulse weapons. Eliminating a major operational risk and an obstacle on the way to product delivery, according to Boeing executives...The specific details on the technology behind the KC-46 aircraft’s immunity to electromagnetic attack are not available. However, according to industry reports, most electromagnetic-hardened technology uses chips that are built on insulating substrates, such as silicon or sapphire, rather than the typical semiconductor chip wafers. The computational systems also often use magneto-resistive random access memory (MRAM). Besides electromagnetic-resistant technology, redundancy within the systems’ hardware and software adds another key to hardening against electronic attack.
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Unread post01 Aug 2017, 13:31

Gums wrote:The helmet is what bothers me. That sucker is exposed to the heavens and
I cannot imagine grounding the thing. Hence, I always proposed a basic HUD for lots of things besides cues for a missile launch or bomb delivery.


AFAIK, the indium tin oxide (ITO) coating in the canopy also works well as NEMP, EMI and lightning protection besides being there for stealth purposes (and solar protection). ITO is much used in other applicationt to protect from EMI/EMP and lighting effects. Many radiation hardened systems actually use ITO for protection as it is generally the best material for that. I'm sure that ITO coating itself is grounded.

F-16 also has similar coating. Was/is it considered good for protecting the pilot and cockpit from these effects?

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