Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 16:50
by SpudmanWP
“If the pilots of both {F-22/35} could carry a 9mm and open the canopy inflight, they would have 15 more kills per sortie,” the senior Air Force official told me. “It's like fighting Mr. Invisible.”


DAVE MAJUMDAR
http://www.scout.com/military/warrior/s ... 2-and-f-35

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 17:16
by spazsinbad
Some proof reading required - me likee: "...After a very thorough examination, my flight surgeon gave her ascent [consent] and I was cleared to fly...."

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 17:27
by alloycowboy
spazsinbad wrote:Some proof reading required - me likee: "...After a very thorough examination, my flight surgeon gave her ascent [consent] and I was cleared to fly...."


I think the author ment to use (assent) there but his autocorrect was being egalitarian.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 18:38
by playloud
SpudmanWP wrote:
“If the pilots of both {F-22/35} could carry a 9mm and open the canopy inflight, they would have 15 more kills per sortie,” the senior Air Force official told me. “It's like fighting Mr. Invisible.”


DAVE MAJUMDAR
http://www.scout.com/military/warrior/s ... 2-and-f-35


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 18:59
by armedupdate
This proves how clueless the Eurofighter/Rafale fanboys.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 19:10
by steve2267
Flying Against the F-22 and F-35
by Dave Majumdar

...
While the Raptor would be the most formidable fighter in the world due to its raw performance even without stealth, it’s now clear to me that even the F-35 with its mediocre kinematic performance will be an extremely dangerous foe in the air due to its low radar cross-section and sensors. “If the pilots of both could carry a 9mm and open the canopy inflight, they would have 15 more kills per sortie,” the senior Air Force official told me. “It's like fighting Mr. Invisible.”





armedupdate wrote:This proves how clueless the Eurofighter/Rafale fanboys.


Actually, wrt the F-35, Mr. Majumdar himself appears fairly clueless. Or else an anti-F-35 bias blinds him to its performance. Compared to the F-22, one may argue the F-35 has mediocre kinematic performance. But then so would all other 4 and 4+ gen aircraft. By all pilot accounts, the F-35 is at least as good as the F-16C Block 50 kinematically, yet I do not recall many sources running around describing the F-16 has having poor kinematic performance. (In fact, many would rather buy more F-16's rather than the F-35. So they must think the F-16 has decent or good kinematic performance.)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 22:10
by scx
I think that the misconceptions about the F-35 Kinematics/E-M/Maneuverability is so rooted and stuck in the public opinion that peoples think it's a fact that the F-35 has a mediocre kinematics.
Another thing is the fact that it's not the full maneuverability capability yet, although the current F-35 has a good maneuverability, it is still limited by the 3i software.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 23:30
by steve2267
And yet I do not feel it is unreasonable to expect, or to hold, a journalist (or a blogger who holds himself out to be an expert) who writes on defense / aerospace issues to educate themselves on the currents capabilities of the equipment about which they write; also to challenge their own personally-held beliefs or biases if for no other reason than to try to maintain some semblance of intellectual honesty.

One would think that Mujumdar, especially after trumpeting his decade long "friendships" with Raptor pilot(s), should be capable of asking some simple questions about F-35 kinematic performance rather than simply parroting the commonly held misconception that it is a poor performer.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2017, 19:47
by XanderCrews
Thank God he managed to get that "Mediocre" in there :roll:

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2017, 19:49
by XanderCrews
steve2267 wrote:And yet I do not feel it is unreasonable to expect, or to hold, a journalist (or a blogger who holds himself out to be an expert) who writes on defense / aerospace issues to educate themselves on the currents capabilities of the equipment about which they write; also to challenge their own personally-held beliefs or biases if for no other reason than to try to maintain some semblance of intellectual honesty.

One would think that Mujumdar, especially after trumpeting his decade long "friendships" with Raptor pilot(s), should be capable of asking some simple questions about F-35 kinematic performance rather than simply parroting the commonly held misconception that it is a poor performer.


'
He whined long enough to find himself in the back of an F-15. so he could "learn first hand" ...Interesting method of rewarding critics.

... Ive been on the wrong side to get free stuff this whole time :doh:

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2017, 19:57
by spazsinbad
Slight Correction (and agree 'I'm a critic - I'm a critic - fly me - fly me!):
"...the Air Force arranged for me [Majumdar] to fly onboard a 71st FTS Northrop T-38A on an operational training sortie during the third week of Atlantic Trident 17..."

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 00:30
by XanderCrews
spazsinbad wrote:Slight Correction (and agree 'I'm a critic - I'm a critic - fly me - fly me!):
"...the Air Force arranged for me [Majumdar] to fly onboard a 71st FTS Northrop T-38A on an operational training sortie during the third week of Atlantic Trident 17..."


My mistake.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 01:01
by nutshell
Easy one guys:

"Can't turn, can't climb, can't turn".

The F35 pilots should also add a sticker "i wish i could fly a Pak-Fa"

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 01:08
by spazsinbad
XanderCrews wrote:Thank God he managed to get that "Mediocre" in there :roll:

Yeah I thought Dave MumbleJar was coming around to 'getting' the F-35 - he used to do so - when he was a proper reporter and not just a hit merchant but as we see perhaps - perhaps, perchance to dream.... :roll:

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 21:55
by firebase99
Stumbled on this forum a few weeks ago. What a great place, so much stuff going on. In any event, I love fighter jets. Fell in love with the the 4 gens growing up, etc. Recently Ive been really researching about the new stuff. This may sound like fluff, or whatnot, but I can read energy pretty good when it comes to flight. Anyway, was at an airshow in S. Carolina last week and had an F-35B there. Marine Air..VSTOL. It is the heaviest of the variants but it LOOKED like it had a SLIGHTLY bigger turning circle than F16C block 32 (The viper did his 1/4 mile 9g 360 turn) BUT appeared a bit faster, maybe 400KIAS Rate Kills...So if he wasnt sandbagging the F35 that VSTOL is a pretty serious maneuvering machine. F35A can likely do even better.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 22:04
by SpudmanWP
The F-35B that you saw was flying with either has Block 2B or 3i which are both limited to 5.5Gs. The F-35B will open up to 7Gs with Block 3F coming out next year.

Image

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 23:07
by steve2267
Norwegian F-35 pilot: ‘We are on track’
by AIRheads/EH 3-27-2017

<snip>

AHF: What has been your most memorable F-35 experience so far?

'Dolby' Hanche: "Another more specific highlight would be the first time I fought F-16s. It was impressive to see just how uneven that fight is, in favor of the F-35.”

http://airheadsfly.com/2017/03/27/norway-f-35-pilot-we-are-on-track/


No ideas of the parameters (e.g. altitude) of that fight. But given that many have stated the F-16 Block 50 (commonly referenced in F-35 comparisons) is the equal of the Typhoon up to 10,000 ft or so... Dolby's statement would seem to lend credence to LM test pilot Billy Flynn's statements that the Lightning has better E-M performance than any 4th gen aircraft out there, including the Typhoon. Mr. Flynn should know, me thinks, as he was a former test pilot driver of the Tiffy.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2017, 00:40
by quicksilver
firebase99 wrote:Stumbled on this forum a few weeks ago. What a great place, so much stuff going on. In any event, I love fighter jets. Fell in love with the the 4 gens growing up, etc. Recently Ive been really researching about the new stuff. This may sound like fluff, or whatnot, but I can read energy pretty good when it comes to flight. Anyway, was at an airshow in S. Carolina last week and had an F-35B there. Marine Air..VSTOL. It is the heaviest of the variants but it LOOKED like it had a SLIGHTLY bigger turning circle than F16C block 32 (The viper did his 1/4 mile 9g 360 turn) BUT appeared a bit faster, maybe 400KIAS Rate Kills...So if he wasnt sandbagging the F35 that VSTOL is a pretty serious maneuvering machine. F35A can likely do even better.


The 'C' is the heaviest of the variants...

'Radius' also kills.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2017, 20:35
by kimjongnumbaun
An F-35 pilot explains how the stealth fighter can have a crushing psychological effect on the enemy

"I've seen guys in F-18s turn directly in front of me and show me their tails cause they have no idea I’m there."

"Everything they see becomes the F-35 out there," said Flatley. "Every radar hit, every communication is about the stealth jet. They want to illuminate or eliminate a threat they can’t handle."

"People are so hellbent on shooting down the stealth fighter that they invariably make mistakes that I can exploit."

http://www.businessinsider.com/psycholo ... ter-2017-5

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 09:34
by spazsinbad
Yeah this quote could go in the Lakenheath thread and several other places such as 'weaps&tactics' but hey I'm going here:
F-35A, F-15 Pilots Train Together During Lakenheath Deployment
04 May 2017 U.S. European Command ["we are your overlords" (Led Zepplin - Immigrant Song)]

"...“For me, it’s my first time dogfighting against an F-15,” said Air Force Maj. Luke Harris, a 34th Fighter Squadron F-35A pilot. “Dogfighting is a test of pilot skill, but it’s also constrained by the aircraft’s capabilities, and I’ve been really impressed by the flight control and maneuverability of the F-35.”

However, with the F-35A’s stealth capability, dogfights aren’t likely, Harris said. Stealth, he said, allows pilots to fly undetected to a “visual merge” and engage air targets before enemies have time to react defensively, which is an advantage over the fourth-generation tactics he employed when he flew the F-16."

Source: https://www.f35.com/news/detail/f-35a-f ... deployment

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 09 May 2017, 20:47
by firebase99
quicksilver wrote:
firebase99 wrote:Stumbled on this forum a few weeks ago. What a great place, so much stuff going on. In any event, I love fighter jets. Fell in love with the the 4 gens growing up, etc. Recently Ive been really researching about the new stuff. This may sound like fluff, or whatnot, but I can read energy pretty good when it comes to flight. Anyway, was at an airshow in S. Carolina last week and had an F-35B there. Marine Air..VSTOL. It is the heaviest of the variants but it LOOKED like it had a SLIGHTLY bigger turning circle than F16C block 32 (The viper did his 1/4 mile 9g 360 turn) BUT appeared a bit faster, maybe 400KIAS Rate Kills...So if he wasnt sandbagging the F35 that VSTOL is a pretty serious maneuvering machine. F35A can likely do even better.


The 'C' is the heaviest of the variants...

'Radius' also kills.


Yes, radius too, thats why stated the F35 turn looked slightly bigger (radius). Speed is life they say and rate kills. I didnt know the C was the heaviest. At any rate (get it?), i think it looked great out there.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 05:45
by steve2267
Pilots Say F-35 Superior Within Visual Range: Dogfight Criticisms Laid To Rest
by Colin Clark, June 19, 2017

I asked one of the Air Force pilots, Lt. Col. Scott “Cap” Gunn, here whether the F-35 would win when fighting close-up with an enemy fighter. His answer was simple: “Without a doubt.”

Gunn told reporters at a briefing here that he had gone up against a friend in an F-16 a few months ago. Though the F-35 “performed very well,” he made clear that it hadn’t been dominant. They flew again recently and the F-16 pilot was amazed by the improvement in the F-35’s performance. “What have they done to your jet?” the pilot said, according to Gunn. “The difference is we have learned how to fly the jet… and better understand where its advantages are.”

Gunn went on to say that he “either never got it within visual range, or, if I’m going to be inside visual range, then it’s because I’m going to choose to be there.” That seems to make clear the aircraft’s vaunted fusion engine and advanced sensors — all tied into the pilot’s helmet — provides the pilot with enough warning and data to allow him to decide the terms of combat.

https://breakingdefense.com/2017/06/pilots-say-f-35-superior-within-visual-range-dogfight-criticisms-laid-to-rest/


If you can control or dictate the terms of the fight... haven't you already won? Sun Tzu or something like that?

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 08:53
by popcorn
"In the F-35 I can generate a wormhole in the airspace and lead everyone through it. There isn’t another platform around that can do that."

- UK Tornado Pilot

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 09:23
by popcorn
“You start with 10 times more power, and if you are much closer and you are alternating signals between four airplanes with a stealth data link between them, you can do that jamming in a coherent, cooperative manner. The signal, the technique, everything is done for [the pilot].”

- LM Vice President Stephen O'Bryan comparing the F-35 to the EA-6B in jamming role

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 11:10
by spazsinbad

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 12:40
by hornetfinn
kimjongnumbaun wrote:An F-35 pilot explains how the stealth fighter can have a crushing psychological effect on the enemy

"I've seen guys in F-18s turn directly in front of me and show me their tails cause they have no idea I’m there."

"Everything they see becomes the F-35 out there," said Flatley. "Every radar hit, every communication is about the stealth jet. They want to illuminate or eliminate a threat they can’t handle."

"People are so hellbent on shooting down the stealth fighter that they invariably make mistakes that I can exploit."

http://www.businessinsider.com/psycholo ... ter-2017-5


It must be really scary fighting against F-35 or F-22, be it inside a fighter plane or SAM system. The psychological effect will be there even if there is not a single F-35 or F-22 in the air, because the enemy will not know for sure. That will be very exhausting mentally.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 14:21
by steve2267
"The F-35 is the best air-to-air airplane in the world, except for the F-22," he said. "The F-22 is the best air-to-ground aircraft in the world except for the F-35."

-- Air Combat Command Gen. "Hawk" Carlisle

https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... neral.html

https://www.investors.com/news/reports- ... ted-today/


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 14:34
by steve2267
As I Googled for several quotes that I recalled, I have come across other great quotes and articles. Major Morten «Dolby» Hanche has several quotes. His blog and a related article are pure gold and worth a re-read, IMO.

The F-35 in a dogfight – what have I learned so far?
Major Morten "Dolby" Hanche 1 Mar 2016

Since I first wrote this post, I have flown additional sorties where I tried an even more aggressive approach to the control position – more aggressive than I thought possible. It worked just fine. The F-35 sticks on like glue, and it is very difficult for the defender to escape.


http://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampfl ... ed-so-far/

--also--
https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/01/h ... d-account/


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 14:39
by nutshell
spazsinbad wrote:



Wtf is that ? :D

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 14:39
by steve2267
"It forces the Russians to take a look at what we are doing and to realize that if they had to embrace us they might be in a position where they had to jump into a boxing ring and fight an invisible Muhammad Ali."

-- Gen. Tod Wolters, commander of US Air Forces in Europe

Amanda Macias, Sep. 20, 2016
http://www.businessinsider.com/wolters- ... ali-2016-9

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 14:52
by steve2267
Several excellent quotes from Brig. General Scott Pleus:

"I can tell you that it is by far the best platform I've ever flown in my entire life, and at that you would have to take me on my word."

"In terms of lethality and survivability, the aircraft is absolutely head and shoulders above our legacy fleet of fighters currently fielded. This is an absolutely formidable airplane, and one our adversaries should fear."

"You never knew I was there. You literally would never know I'm there. I flew the F-35 against other fourth-generation platforms and we killed them and they never even saw us."

"If you were to engage an F-35 in say, a visual dogfight capability, the capabilities of the F-35 are absolutely eye-watering compared to a fourth-generation fighter."

"The airplane has unbelievable maneuvering characteristics that make it completely undefeatable in an air-to-air environment. So if it's a long-range contact, you'll never see me and you'll die, and if it's within visual-range contact you'll see me and you're gonna die and you're gonna die very quickly."

'One our adversaries should fear': US Air Force General describes how the F-35 is above and beyond the competition
Amanda Macias 26 Dec 2016
http://www.businessinsider.com/general- ... f35-2017-1


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 15:26
by steve2267
"The F-35 is comparable or better in every one of those metrics, sometimes by a significant margin, in both air-to-air, and when we hog-up those fourth-generation fighters, for the air-to-ground mission."

If one were to overlay the energy-maneuverability (E-M) diagrams for the F/A-18, F-16 or Typhoon over the F-35's, "It is better. Comparable or better than every Western fourth-generation fighter out there," Flynn says. That applies even to the F-35 B and C models with their respective 7g and 7.5g limits. "You're not going to see any measurable difference between the aircraft," Flynn says. In terms of instantaneous and sustained turn rates and just about every other performance metric, the F-35 variants match or considerably exceed the capabilities of every fourth-generation fighter, he says.

7 Feb 2013
IN FOCUS: Lockheed claims F-35 kinematics ‘better than or equal to’ Typhoon or Super Hornet
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-382078/


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 15:37
by steve2267
Especially love this tweet from Billie Flynn

Raging pulling G out over Atlantic Ocean in CF-5. Love this jet...flies like a kite and turns like a snowboard in deep powder snow.

3 Mar 2017
https://mobile.twitter.com/billieflynn/ ... 76/photo/1


Image

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 19:12
by spazsinbad
:devil: The F-35 family (the BUTT Sistas) kickin' BUTT! Now that would be my favourite pilot crewroom quote. :devil: Come On. 8)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 01:33
by nutshell
But Bertha is a big woman tho :D

We need a sister which is chubby !

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 03:52
by spazsinbad
:devil: Right On BRUTHA! :doh:

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 12:29
by juretrn
“There is nothing that I have seen from maneuvering an F-35 in a tactical environment that leads me to assume that there is any other airplane I would rather be in. I feel completely comfortable and confident in taking that airplane into any combat environment,” Lt. Col. Matt Hayden, 56th Fighter Wing, Chief of Safety, Luke AFB, Arizona, told Scout Warrior in a special pilot interview last year.

More ammo in favour of the F-35 ;) ;)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2018, 18:12
by mixelflick
"Can't turn, can't climb and can't run" is going to haunt APA for a loooong time :)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 03:12
by popcorn
The F-35 is fantastic.. it's got sass, it's got class and it's going to protect your a$$. :mrgreen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21ETvx7jPLM

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 03:25
by spazsinbad
Ah the 'popcorn' (is it salty or sugarcoated?) is back: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=52749&p=363745&hilit=21ETvx7jPLM#p363745

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 04:04
by XanderCrews
mixelflick wrote:"Can't turn, can't climb and can't run" is going to haunt APA for a loooong time :)


They will just edit that out, or write yet another contradictory "white paper"

Have you seen them flip flop on the Super Hornet? right down to trying to say they will sue if you show that they once praised it?

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 04:09
by rheonomic
XanderCrews wrote:
mixelflick wrote:"Can't turn, can't climb and can't run" is going to haunt APA for a loooong time :)


They will just edit that out, or write yet another contradictory "white paper"

Have you seen them flip flop on the Super Hornet? right down to trying to say they will sue if you show that they once praised it?


I'm shocked, shocked that APA has questionably academic integrity.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 04:23
by Corsair1963
When asked about my first flight in the F-35, I compared it to flying a Hornet (F/A-18), but with a turbo charged engine. I now can quote a USMC F/A-18 Weapons School Graduate after his first flight in the F-35: «It was like flying a Hornet with four engines!»


http://www.businessinsider.com/leaked-d ... ree-2016-9

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 04:40
by XanderCrews
rheonomic wrote:I'm shocked, shocked that APA has questionably academic integrity.


I was surprised too!!

Image

I laughed liked this^^

2.7 Observations
The Super Hornet is a fighter with exceptional handling qualities, even by modern fighter standards, which even a novice can handle comfortably and with confidence at the edge of the low speed manoeuvre envelope.

The point which Boeing and the US Navy have made most convincingly, is that the aircraft's flight control software is so robust that even a beginner on the type can fly it without embarrassing himself too badly. Sceptics should note that test pilot comments about fighters with this generation of flight controls being as easy to fly as a Cessna 172 are indeed correct. There is no room for argument here, as I had the opportunity to observe first hand!

In the hands of an experienced combat pilot, such flight control software means that the pilot can be wholly focussed on the furball in progress, and need not devote any thought to pushing the aircraft past the edge into a uncontrolled departure and resulting risk of a ground impact or successful enemy missile shot. The importance of a substantially departure resistant aircraft, especially if encumbered with stores, cannot be understated - carefree handling translates directly into combat effectiveness.

In a low speed post-merge manoeuvring fight, with a high off-boresight 4th generation missile and Helmet Mounted Display, the Super Hornet will be a very difficult opponent for any current Russian fighter, even the Su-27/30. The analogue and early generation digital flight controls with hard-wired or hard-coded AoA limiters used in the Russian aircraft are a generation behind the Super Hornet and a much more experienced pilot will be required for the Russian types to match the ease with which the Super Hornet handles high alpha flight regimes.

The reports emanating from carrier landing trials performed in the US cannot be disputed, the aircraft is a sheer delight in the circuit and will take much of the anxiety out of night and bad weather traps, especially for nugget fighter-attack pilots.

The cockpit ergonomics build upon two decades of Hornet experience, and make for a very comfortable and easy to use cockpit environment. Again, a novice pilot will find the MFD modes easy to navigate and easy to follow. The colour moving map display makes navigational orientation ridiculously easy, against the mental chores of VOR/DME/TACAN, radar mapping and INS/map-on-the-knee navigation. The prospect of MIDS/RWR/radar/IFF tracks being overlayed on the moving map will take much effort out of maintaining wider area situational awareness.

The radar is very easy to use in MMTI, GMTI and SAR spot mapping modes, and provides an excellent tool for highly accurate all weather maritime strike, littoral strike and battlefield interdiction operations. In particular, the ability to interleave MTI and surface mapping modes is exceptionally useful for resolving and identifying moving surface targets of opportunity.

In conclusion, the reports of the Hornet's exceptional high alpha handling characteristics are provably correct. Established Hornet users should not be disappointed by this aircraft!



But then all of the sudden the RAAF, an "Established Hornet user" purchased Super Hornets!:

In summary, the Flanker outperforms the Super Hornet decisively in aerodynamic performance. What advantage the Super Hornet now has in the APG-79 radar will vanish in coming years as Russian AESAs emerge. The one area in which the Flanker currently trails the Super Hornet is in radar signature (stealth) performance. The Super Hornet has inlet geometry shaping, inlet tunnel S-bends, and an AESA shroud all of which reduce its forward sector signature well below that of the Flanker.

In the short term, this is an advantage the Super Hornet retains, with the caveat that external stores put hard limits on signature improvement for the Super Hornet. However, Russian researchers have done some excellent work over the last decade in absorbent materials and laminate techniques for radar signature reduction, which offer the potential for the Flanker to achieve similar signature reduction to the F/A-18E/F. If funded, a reduced signature Flanker is feasible in the next half decade.

In conclusion, the Flanker in all current variants kinematically outclasses the Super Hornet in all high performance flight regimes. The only near term advantage the latest Super Hornets have over legacy Flanker variants is in the APG-79 AESA and radar signature reduction features, an advantage which will not last long given highly active ongoing Russian development effort in these areas. The supercruising Al-41F engine will further widen the performance gap in favour of the Flanker. What this means is that post 2010 the Super Hornet is uncompetitive against advanced Flankers in BVR combat, as it is now uncompetitive in close combat





And they updated with this

APA Notice

This article predates the mid December, 2006, announcement by Defence that Super Hornets may be sought as gap fillers for the RAAF, and subsequent decision to acquire these aircraft. The article does not constitute an endorsement of that proposal in any fashion and should not be interpreted to be such by any parties. It concentrates primarily on the history and flying qualities of the aircraft. Any attempt to present this article as an endorsement of the Super Hornet decision will be considered to be intentional and mischievous misrepresentation.


So don't go using their own words against them smart guy.

what part of:

the Flanker in all current variants kinematically outclasses the Super Hornet in all high performance flight regimes.

and

the Super Hornet will be a very difficult opponent for any current Russian fighter, even the Su-27/30.

don't you understand?

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 04:43
by rheonomic
«It was like flying a Hornet with four engines!»


I've heard this before from Lightning drivers I've talked with.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 11:50
by juretrn
So APA legit wrote SH can outperform the Flanker?
Can't wait to throw that article into a Flanker fanboys' face. :)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 13:03
by optimist
APA have packed up their tent and moved on. Even hords/goon's twitter is a shadow of it's former lunacy. Perhaps the meds are kicking in?

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 14:18
by mixelflick
juretrn wrote:So APA legit wrote SH can outperform the Flanker?
Can't wait to throw that article into a Flanker fanboys' face. :)


I'll have to see it to believe it. IF it's true, where should I go for aviation entertainment (on the same level)? I know all about Sputnick news but Kopp and Goon reside(ed) in a higher plane of denial IMO..

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 17:49
by XanderCrews
juretrn wrote:So APA legit wrote SH can outperform the Flanker?
Can't wait to throw that article into a Flanker fanboys' face. :)



It's a critical insight into their bias as well. They wrote glowingly of the super hornet, until the RAAF bought them which threw the wrench into the F-22 for Australia agenda. Then, overnight super hornet was bad and not good enough.

So even within airpower Australia lore they are full of it. I'm actually shocked they keep the original pro super hornet piece up there

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 02:00
by element1loop
XanderCrews wrote:It's a critical insight into their bias as well. ... which threw the wrench into the F-22 for Australia agenda. Then, overnight super hornet was bad and not good enough.

So even within airpower Australia lore they are full of it. ...


At that time Kopp described SH as a good proxy for getting F-15Es.

Crazy thing is, if you read his wet-dream wishlist for Pigs + Raptor combo, it's like reading a list of the capabilities of the SH + Lightning combo ... except the latter are actually far more capable than his wet-dream wishlist.

Abuse Peter and the wolf syndrome = No cred

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 02:24
by zerion
nutshell wrote:Wtf is that ? :D


You haven't heard about the troglodytes?


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 03:27
by element1loop
This ...

tailgate [F-22A pilot retired] wrote:

"... I have asked a bud of mine who is still flying [F-]15’s what were his thoughts [facing F-35 in air combat].....he said two words to me......and I quote ‘Holy Crap'. This guy has over 5 grand [5,000 hours] in the Eagle. I trust his judgement ..."

Source:
viewtopic.php?p=387036#p387036

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 02:48
by popcorn
“It will first of all be about survival. Do you want to be the Eagle or the Chicken in an airpower confrontation?"
- Lt.Gen. Pasquale Preziosa, Italian AF CoS, on F-35 acquisition in Oct. 2013

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 08:29
by zero-one
mixelflick wrote:"Can't turn, can't climb and can't run" is going to haunt APA for a loooong time :)


It's already starting to bite them from behind..
This quote is from the Aviationist website, a traditionally anti-F-35 blog

https://theaviationist.com/2018/04/09/t ... -it-wrong/
According to author Dr. Carlo Kopp, the F-35A dimensions are oddly similar to the F-105. But among several critical differences is the wing surface area, with the F-35A having larger wing surface area and the resultant lower wing loading than the F-105. Other major differences are the F-35A’s low observable technology and greatly advanced avionics, data collecting, processing and sharing capability. Finally, the F-35A is purpose-built for a wide range of mission sets, whereas the F-105 was predominantly a high-speed, low-level nuclear strike aircraft poorly suited for conventional strike.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 15:37
by steve2267
zero-one wrote:
https://theaviationist.com/2018/04/09/t ... -it-wrong/
According to author Dr. Carlo Kopp, the F-35A dimensions are oddly similar to the F-105. But among several critical differences is the wing surface area, with the F-35A having larger wing surface area ...


"Larger wing surface area"? Then the dimensions aren't so similar...

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 15:45
by zero-one
Actually even the dimensions aren't similar at all

F-35A:
Length: 50.5 ft (15.67 m)
Wingspan: 35 ft (10.7 m)
Height: 14.2 ft(4.33 m)
Wing area: 460 ft² (42.7 m²)

F-105D:
Length: 64 ft 4.75 in (19.63 m)
Wingspan: 34 ft 11.25 in (10.65 m)
Height: 19 ft 8 in (5.99 m)
Wing area: 385 ft² (35.76 m²)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 16:25
by element1loop
Forget it, Kopp was using the similitude as assertion only to paint (smear and denigrate) the F-35A with a dismissive "bomb truck" lable, implying it to be a desasterous option, and the RAAF had no clue what it was doing, and dearly needed Carli to guide them to the deeper truths. Way too much time has been wasted talking about that guys' warped dead-wrong partisan agendas and denial of a plethora of facts and counterpoint.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 17:13
by mixelflick
Personally, I'm enjoying all the crow Pierre Sprey, APA etc are eating. And it's only going to get worse for them...

I for one am really jazzed watching the USAF, Marines, allies and soon the Navy take delivery of a brand new fighter jet. I was too young to understand what was going on when the F-15/16 entered service - though I came to love those aircraft. The F-16 went IOC in what, 1979? The F-15 well before that and of course the F-14 toward the end of Vietnam. Even when the F-18 was new (1982) I couldn't grasp what a jump in lethality those jets brought.

But I'm 48 now, and can clearly understand the F-35's importance. Exciting times, watching it mature and such. The 20:1 kill ratio reports from Red Flag. The Paris display. The eventual combat record. I'm so happy for the men who fly her, and everyone that's involved with the program really. Given my age, it's probably the last time I'll see a new "fighter" introduced. Sobering thought, but I'll die easier knowing American air power is still leaps and bounds ahead of the threat...

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 23:20
by popcorn
Can we please get back to F-35 favorite quotes?

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 23:38
by popcorn
"Everything they see becomes the F-35 out there...Every radar hit, every communication is about the stealth jet. They want to illuminate or eliminate a threat they can't handle...It has nothing to do with their skill or technology. They're at such a technological disadvantage... I've seen guys in F-18s turn directly in front of me and show me their tails cause they have no idea I'm there...It aggregates to a completely inept response to what we're doing in the air..People are so hellbent on shooting down the stealth fighter that they invariably make mistakes that I can exploit."

- Maj. Dan Flatley, USMC( ret.)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2018, 11:36
by mk82
popcorn wrote:"Everything they see becomes the F-35 out there...Every radar hit, every communication is about the stealth jet. They want to illuminate or eliminate a threat they can't handle...It has nothing to do with their skill or technology. They're at such a technological disadvantage... I've seen guys in F-18s turn directly in front of me and show me their tails cause they have no idea I'm there...It aggregates to a completely inept response to what we're doing in the air..People are so hellbent on shooting down the stealth fighter that they invariably make mistakes that I can exploit."

- Maj. Dan Flatley, USMC( ret.)


Damn!!!! That says it all.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2018, 16:54
by gta4
XanderCrews wrote:
rheonomic wrote:I'm shocked, shocked that APA has questionably academic integrity.


I was surprised too!!

Image

I laughed liked this^^

2.7 Observations
The Super Hornet is a fighter with exceptional handling qualities, even by modern fighter standards, which even a novice can handle comfortably and with confidence at the edge of the low speed manoeuvre envelope.

The point which Boeing and the US Navy have made most convincingly, is that the aircraft's flight control software is so robust that even a beginner on the type can fly it without embarrassing himself too badly. Sceptics should note that test pilot comments about fighters with this generation of flight controls being as easy to fly as a Cessna 172 are indeed correct. There is no room for argument here, as I had the opportunity to observe first hand!

In the hands of an experienced combat pilot, such flight control software means that the pilot can be wholly focussed on the furball in progress, and need not devote any thought to pushing the aircraft past the edge into a uncontrolled departure and resulting risk of a ground impact or successful enemy missile shot. The importance of a substantially departure resistant aircraft, especially if encumbered with stores, cannot be understated - carefree handling translates directly into combat effectiveness.

In a low speed post-merge manoeuvring fight, with a high off-boresight 4th generation missile and Helmet Mounted Display, the Super Hornet will be a very difficult opponent for any current Russian fighter, even the Su-27/30. The analogue and early generation digital flight controls with hard-wired or hard-coded AoA limiters used in the Russian aircraft are a generation behind the Super Hornet and a much more experienced pilot will be required for the Russian types to match the ease with which the Super Hornet handles high alpha flight regimes.

The reports emanating from carrier landing trials performed in the US cannot be disputed, the aircraft is a sheer delight in the circuit and will take much of the anxiety out of night and bad weather traps, especially for nugget fighter-attack pilots.

The cockpit ergonomics build upon two decades of Hornet experience, and make for a very comfortable and easy to use cockpit environment. Again, a novice pilot will find the MFD modes easy to navigate and easy to follow. The colour moving map display makes navigational orientation ridiculously easy, against the mental chores of VOR/DME/TACAN, radar mapping and INS/map-on-the-knee navigation. The prospect of MIDS/RWR/radar/IFF tracks being overlayed on the moving map will take much effort out of maintaining wider area situational awareness.

The radar is very easy to use in MMTI, GMTI and SAR spot mapping modes, and provides an excellent tool for highly accurate all weather maritime strike, littoral strike and battlefield interdiction operations. In particular, the ability to interleave MTI and surface mapping modes is exceptionally useful for resolving and identifying moving surface targets of opportunity.

In conclusion, the reports of the Hornet's exceptional high alpha handling characteristics are provably correct. Established Hornet users should not be disappointed by this aircraft!



But then all of the sudden the RAAF, an "Established Hornet user" purchased Super Hornets!:

In summary, the Flanker outperforms the Super Hornet decisively in aerodynamic performance. What advantage the Super Hornet now has in the APG-79 radar will vanish in coming years as Russian AESAs emerge. The one area in which the Flanker currently trails the Super Hornet is in radar signature (stealth) performance. The Super Hornet has inlet geometry shaping, inlet tunnel S-bends, and an AESA shroud all of which reduce its forward sector signature well below that of the Flanker.

In the short term, this is an advantage the Super Hornet retains, with the caveat that external stores put hard limits on signature improvement for the Super Hornet. However, Russian researchers have done some excellent work over the last decade in absorbent materials and laminate techniques for radar signature reduction, which offer the potential for the Flanker to achieve similar signature reduction to the F/A-18E/F. If funded, a reduced signature Flanker is feasible in the next half decade.

In conclusion, the Flanker in all current variants kinematically outclasses the Super Hornet in all high performance flight regimes. The only near term advantage the latest Super Hornets have over legacy Flanker variants is in the APG-79 AESA and radar signature reduction features, an advantage which will not last long given highly active ongoing Russian development effort in these areas. The supercruising Al-41F engine will further widen the performance gap in favour of the Flanker. What this means is that post 2010 the Super Hornet is uncompetitive against advanced Flankers in BVR combat, as it is now uncompetitive in close combat





And they updated with this

APA Notice

This article predates the mid December, 2006, announcement by Defence that Super Hornets may be sought as gap fillers for the RAAF, and subsequent decision to acquire these aircraft. The article does not constitute an endorsement of that proposal in any fashion and should not be interpreted to be such by any parties. It concentrates primarily on the history and flying qualities of the aircraft. Any attempt to present this article as an endorsement of the Super Hornet decision will be considered to be intentional and mischievous misrepresentation.


So don't go using their own words against them smart guy.

what part of:

the Flanker in all current variants kinematically outclasses the Super Hornet in all high performance flight regimes.

and

the Super Hornet will be a very difficult opponent for any current Russian fighter, even the Su-27/30.

don't you understand?


This is because he does not consider low speed dogfight as high performance fighter regime.
And, If he read the manual carefully, he will notice that super hornet out accelerate all flanker variants at subsonic (except su35)
And, The pirouette maneuver of super hornet can help it outturn most flanker vatiants.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2018, 23:07
by popcorn
“We are not going to let the enemy dictate what we do now...I can float the aircraft carrier anywhere I want, I can float this offshore to any country, any continent and I can fly in when I choose – not when they permit me to do so...There is nothing they can do.”

- Wing Commander James Beck

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2018, 23:16
by popcorn
"When we're sitting here on USS America, a ship that was built for the F-35, with the F-35 in mind, and you put 6 or 8 or 12 F-35s on this ship, this ship instantly becomes the most powerful concentration of combat power to put to sea in the history of the world."

Maj. John Dirk, USMC

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 11:55
by spazsinbad
OH this is so sad - how many times do we have to say THINK DIFFERENT and we still have endless this v that threads. :devil:
"...The F-35 “really is a leap forward compared to anything we operated before,” said Butcher, Wing Commander John Butcher [who previously flew Harriers and F/A-18 Hornets]. “The fact that it can see and hear at such significant ranges, it has all the sensors and the technology that will support the pilot in the cockpit to make quick, good decisions—that for me is the thing that changes with this platform.”...

...Butcher’s 617 Sqdn. includes a mix of experienced aviators and four brand-new pilots. It is these young men and women, climbing into the F-35 with no preconceptions, who will be key to developing tactics for the new stealth fighter, Butcher said.

The pilots “need to forget what they knew before. They need to come with a new portfolio, a new idea in their heads of exactly what it is they need to do with the platform to make it air combat effective,” Butcher said. “All of the previous tactics and the way we used to fight are very much gone.”..." http://aviationweek.com/defense/uk-s-ro ... 5-squadron [repeated on the UKmodInAmuddle thread]

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 23:51
by popcorn
“The F-35 is a great airplane. The comments that I make about the F-35 are about program execution. There’s a real difference. The airplane itself is a high-performing, advanced, fifth-generation fighter.”

Patrick M. Shanahan - DEPSECDEF and former Boeing Sr. VP

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2018, 12:59
by spazsinbad
This is the LONGEST QUOTE one would wish to hear from retired LtCol USMC 'Chip' Berke in .WMA format - others too large. Thanks 'SWP' for editing the youtube video from 'Dragon029' which excerpt this WMA sound only file consists. :mrgreen:

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 06:27
by hornetfinn
Another great thing in having radio frequency systems software defined is that upgrading and improving the systems does not usually need any hardware modifications and can be made very quickly. Need new waveforms or new features in old waveforms? Just upgrade the software which might take couple of minutes or even less and there you have all those new capabilities. Of course in real life there are always some hardware limitations and some larger upgrades might need upgraded hardware also. But they are also easier to make as there are much less done with hardware and there is less physical stuff that needs to be changed.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 06:48
by hornetfinn
Billie Flynn about F-35 hot/cold weather testing:
F-35 weather testing

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 08:18
by spazsinbad

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 22:28
by jedigman
Billie Flynn adressing Turkish delegation who are there for rollout ceremony of Turkey's first F-35.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 23:03
by spazsinbad
The KIDS are going to ROOL in F-35 - OLDies be damned! My take away from Billie Flynn explaining how good it all will be.


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2018, 13:57
by mixelflick
lrrpf52 wrote:I talked with a new F-35A pilot with 388th at Hill AFB open house yesterday.

He looked to be half my age, but was very much appreciative of the aircraft's capabilities. He said on drop night at the end of flight training, he got slotted for F-35A, even though F-22 was his first pick. He said, "Knowing what I know now, I'm so glad it worked out that way."

"Everything I've seen about performance and detection range out in the open is very misinformed. We can get in way closer than any of the numbers I've seen."

While we were chatting, the ordnance folks were literally loading up GBU-12s and AIM-9Xs on external pylons.

He said they are just beginning to expand the capabilities. We were talking about how the gun is more in-play going offensive from unobserved approaches, and he got excited with a large smile. "That's the idea."

It was very interesting to listen to his perspective, especially as a brand new F-35 driver speaking with a reasoned level of confidence coming from a situational awareness and VLO conversation, instead of maneuverability, speed, etc.

This is a totally different organizational conversion from the days of the F-4E and A-7D to the F-15 and F-16. Pilots who converted to the Eagle or Fighting Falcon would talk about things in terms of comparison to what the older jets could do with re: maneuverability, better cockpit layout, and avionics.

This is something else.


VERY interesting.

Thanks for sharing :)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 15:38
by steve2267
The F-35 pilot has the option to continuously point the nose at the adversary, even at ridiculously slow speeds, which is a great capability to have in combination with high off-boresight missiles and a helmet mounted sight.
-- Lt Col Ian Knight

Out of the Shadows // Test Report // Dutch F-35 Update, Frank Crebas, http://www.combataircraft.net, May 2018, p.33


Knight divulged a little more information about flying basic fighter maneuvers (BFM) in an F-35. ‘When our envelope was cleared to practise BFM we got the opportunity to fight some fourth generation fighters. Remember, back then the rumors were that the F-35 was a pig. The first time the opponents showed up [in the training area] they had wing tanks along with a bunch of missiles. I guess they figured that being in a dirty configuration wouldn’t really matter and that they would still easily outmaneuver us. By the end of the week, though, they had dropped their wing tanks, transitioned to a single centerline fuel tank and were still doing everything they could not to get gunned by us. A week later they stripped the jets clean of all external stores, which made the BFM fights interesting, to say the least…"
-- Lt Col Ian Knight

Out of the Shadows // Test Report // Dutch F-35 Update, Frank Crebas, http://www.combataircraft.net, May 2018, p.33

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 17:57
by spazsinbad
The SIX page PDF :devil: 'ONLY THE SHADOW NOSE' :devil: has been posted earlier May 2018:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=54012

PDF download: Dutch F-35As OUT of the SHADOWS - Combat Aircraft May 2018 pp6.pdf
download/file.php?id=26975 (PDF 1.91Mb) [downloaded sum 2,229 times already even]

Three page text PDF of goodygoody Quotes about fightin' dogs attached.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 20:48
by steve2267
Yup. But when I searched this thread, none of those goodygoody quotes showed up. Soze I figured I'd throw 'em out for all to see. They seemed particularly apropos given recent discussion about the "infamous" "dogfight" test, and Spurts discussing a hugely enlarged E-M diagram possibly at 19,000 ft and comparing turn performance to the Viper.

I figger in that article that it wuz Vipers that the Panthers were raping. Don't think any other combat jet would drop all the way down to single centerline tanks.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2018, 05:40
by steve2267
popcorn had a nice link to a British Tornado pilot's thoughts about the F-35 over in the UK muddle thread. Here's a nice quote:

No 17(R) Test and Evaluation Squadron, called the Black Knights, has been re-established as the UK’s premier unit for developing and realizing the potential of the Lightning II. Now based in the California desert at Edwards, handpicked personnel of this famous squadron are already engaged in the operational evaluation of the F-35 — learning about, flying, and maintaining this advanced fighter.

Wing. Cmdr. Jim Beck, the first officer to command a UK F-35 squadron, leads the Black Knights. ...

...

The system is clearly impressing Beck, who is a former Tornado pilot. “I simply cannot explain to you how good this sensor suite is,” he said. “It is mind-blowing. We don't actually even need to carry a weapon, albeit we can. I can track targets, identify them all, after having turned [nose] cold [away from the targets], then datalink that information to my Typhoons. The Typhoon pilots can then carry their ordnance to bear against the targets.

“So, I’ve identified everything at distances that no one thought previously possible,” Beck continued. “I’ve shared that data with other assets. I can lead them all into the fight. We are very focused on getting value for money and we can do a lot more by blending our assets.

“This jet isn’t just about the weapons — it’s a game-changing capability. The Tornado GR.4 can't just stroll into a double digit SAM MEZ [Missile Engagement Zone]. In the F-35 I can generate a wormhole in the airspace and lead everyone through it. There isn’t another platform around that can do that. This isn’t all about height and supercruise speed — it’s the ability to not be seen,” added Beck.

United Kingdom F-35B Testing, Jamie Hunter, 27 October 2015


The wormhole comment makes me wonder about an offensive EW attack carried out by the F-35 to "open this wormhole." While the F-35 can thread its way through various SAM sites because the MEZ will be smaller for the F-35, how could it lead other 4th gen jets through the same SAM minefield? This only makes sense if it is also able to electronically attack / blind the SAMs / ground radars.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2018, 07:56
by stereospace
The wormhole comment makes me wonder about an offensive EW attack carried out by the F-35 to "open this wormhole." While the F-35 can thread its way through various SAM sites because the MEZ will be smaller for the F-35, how could it lead other 4th gen jets through the same SAM minefield? This only makes sense if it is also able to electronically attack / blind the SAMs / ground radars.


That made me perk up. I've never heard that before, and if your interpretation is true, that is a groundbreaking capability.

OTOH, if you position the wing aircraft in the F-35 shadow, that cone projected between the emitter radar and the F-35 then projected beyond it into space, that might create a wormhole zone as well. That would require precision flying, but it might work. That region would look like empty space to the radar.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2018, 08:43
by hornetfinn
steve2267 wrote:The wormhole comment makes me wonder about an offensive EW attack carried out by the F-35 to "open this wormhole." While the F-35 can thread its way through various SAM sites because the MEZ will be smaller for the F-35, how could it lead other 4th gen jets through the same SAM minefield? This only makes sense if it is also able to electronically attack / blind the SAMs / ground radars.


IMO, there are many reasons for this. First is that F-35 has far better SA of the overall situation, where the threat radars and other threat systems are and what they are doing. This allows F-35 to select the best route for 4th gens to follow and avoid the most threatening areas. Second is the VLO stealth capability which allows F-35 to go close to threat systems without being in danger itself. This allows F-35 to position itself best for the third point which is EA/EW capability. F-35 can actually do stand-in jamming which means it's near the threat radar and protected 4th gens are further away from it. Because of this and high gain jamming, it can use very little jamming power to protect the 4th gens effectively while enemy might never know they were being jammed. Of course this likely really works well only against high-frequency radars, but that's pretty much all is needed. Pretty much every potential threat system uses such radar for target tracking and engagement at least. Low frequency radars would be small in numbers and F-35 would know where they were and could avoid them.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2018, 10:35
by Dragon029
steve2267 wrote:The wormhole comment makes me wonder about an offensive EW attack carried out by the F-35 to "open this wormhole." While the F-35 can thread its way through various SAM sites because the MEZ will be smaller for the F-35, how could it lead other 4th gen jets through the same SAM minefield? This only makes sense if it is also able to electronically attack / blind the SAMs / ground radars.


While the F-35 could potentially be limited in how it can open wormholes for 4th gens through SAM minefields (simply due to the use of non-X band radars), it was able to make friendly F-16s completely invisible (through jamming) to OPFOR F-16s in this exercise:

www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=26975

'The initial scenario was that our two F-35s would escort a four-ship of F-16s across a notional border and protect them against another eight-ship of F-16s simulating a modern adversary. A relatively inexperienced flight leader was in charge of the F-16s on our side and Lt Col Joost 'Niki' Luijsterburg, the Tucson detachment commander, was responsible for the adversaries. Up to this point, we had only practised these scenarios in the simulators and while we had a decent game-plan, we were all anxious to see how the F-35 would perform in real life. We figured that the F-35's stealth would keep us out of harm's way for most of the fight, but that we also need to protect the friendly F-16s, maximise the lethality of their missiles and get them to the target. To make this happen, we planned to initially use electronic attack against the adversary F-16s, see if we could avoid having them detect friendly fighters and datalink the location of the hostile aircraft to our F-16s. This way we could use the F-16s on our side to shoot down the initial wave of enemy fighters and keep our own missiles available once the 'Blue Air' F-16s had to focus on their target attack. The plan worked flawlessly.

'In the debrief 'Niki' told us it was one of the most memorable sorties he had ever flown. Having previously worked in the F-35 program office he was elated to find out how effective the F-35 was, but at the same time he was frustrated by not getting a single shot off the rail against us, while getting killed multiple times. After that sortie it really hit us that the F-35 was going to make a big difference in how we operate fighters and other assets in the Royal Netherlands Air Force'.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2018, 19:13
by wrightwing
hornetfinn wrote:
steve2267 wrote:The wormhole comment makes me wonder about an offensive EW attack carried out by the F-35 to "open this wormhole." While the F-35 can thread its way through various SAM sites because the MEZ will be smaller for the F-35, how could it lead other 4th gen jets through the same SAM minefield? This only makes sense if it is also able to electronically attack / blind the SAMs / ground radars.


IMO, there are many reasons for this. First is that F-35 has far better SA of the overall situation, where the threat radars and other threat systems are and what they are doing. This allows F-35 to select the best route for 4th gens to follow and avoid the most threatening areas. Second is the VLO stealth capability which allows F-35 to go close to threat systems without being in danger itself. This allows F-35 to position itself best for the third point which is EA/EW capability. F-35 can actually do stand-in jamming which means it's near the threat radar and protected 4th gens are further away from it. Because of this and high gain jamming, it can use very little jamming power to protect the 4th gens effectively while enemy might never know they were being jammed. Of course this likely really works well only against high-frequency radars, but that's pretty much all is needed. Pretty much every potential threat system uses such radar for target tracking and engagement at least. Low frequency radars would be small in numbers and F-35 would know where they were and could avoid them.

The F-35 can jam other frequencies than just X band, though that is certainly the most meaningful.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 06 Jul 2018, 09:38
by hornetfinn
Could not find this anywhere in the forum (probably because it's in French mostly), so this might be new here:
https://www.thomas-legrain-conseil.com/ ... -35-36.pdf

From page 62 onwards there is interview with USAF Colonel Pete “Coach” Fesler about the Atlantic Trident 2017 exercise:

Performing at a high level is one thing, altering the playing field is another. The 5th Gen aircraft has done that very thing, altering the classic air to air engagement in a fundamental way. Fesler noted, “the classic approach of shooting ones missiles and turning before the adversary can get a shot is predicated on the fact that the adversary sees you. In the 4th gen world that is the case. Ideally the pilot would like to be able to shoot, let their missile do the work and get away before the adversary can get a missile off. In the F-22 and F-35 world, the adversary doesn’t necessarily know where you are coming from. The 5th Gen pilot might shoot a missile and monitor to make sure it is effective. If the missile misses for any number of reasons, they are in good position for a follow-up shot. That is one of the fundamental differences between 4th Gen fighters and 5th Gen fighters. In general, in the 5th Gen world the adversary
doesn’t really know where you are coming from. They may have a general idea but not a lot of specifics. For 5th Gen pilots it’s a good place to be, to be able to roam around the battlefield faster than the speed of sound in an airplane that is largely undetectable all while your airplane is building a 3 dimensional picture of everything within a couple hundred miles of you.’’


This is interesting as it likely has pretty dramatic effect on air combat.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2018, 07:37
by mk82
lrrpf52 wrote:
Mo: The F-16 and F/A-18 are extremely capable platforms and they do the swing role /multi role mission very well.

However, they are going to struggle vs Anti-Access/Area Denial (A2/AD) or IADS, and in those cases they will be on a dedicated mission. We do have a lot more flexibility to flip flop missions, and we do it a lot in training. We will escort a package on a strike mission and then we will break off do some A2G, or suppression of enemy air defenses (SEAD), perhaps some Combat Air Patrol (CAP) or dynamic targeting in the target area – then we’ll rejoin the package and come out with everybody.

Especially along with the F-22, we’ll open the door, wait while everyone else comes in and completes their mission, then come out with the package and close the door behind us.

We do some different things.

As Marines we are on call for a number of different missions, close air support (CAS) etc. that we could not have done in one airplane.

https://sldinfo.com/2016/12/the-moment- ... aordinary/

This has been quoted before, but brings up something in the vein of this thread.

What systems used to be used for "opening the door" and escorting strike packages?

We're talking Sparkvark, Prowler, and Growler mission profiles.

So you have a system that can do effectively most of what an F-22A does for air dominance with some limitations only in speed, service ceiling, and internal AAM load, but with much better sensors and next generation IR spectrum Search and Track.

Can pivot off the Electronic Support mission for opening up A2/AD and do whatever is needed, whether it be interdiction/strike, air dominance via CAP, SEAD, flexible attack on targets of opportunity, then re-join a 4th Gen strike package and provide Electronic Support escort on the way out.

This is freaking crazy. I've been reading about this, but each day, it feels like a new level of practical capability sets in again that further solidifies how much of a game-changer this really is.


The F35 is truly an onmirole fighter to the Nth degree. I like to think of the F35 as a Renaissance aircraft.....it does almost everything well. The F35’s information superiority plays a large part in enabling its remarkable onmirole capabilities.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2018, 09:29
by Dragon029
From Reddit; a USAF GCI (Sandy88) talking with some other guys about working with different jets: https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comment ... ets_super/

fringeaggressor wrote:It's also substantially draggier than the A/C, mitigating most of the raw effectiveness of that additional fuel in a dash. You can hang bags, but then you're just compounding the problem.

Everybody's got a gas problem in BVR. Only player who doesn't is the Raptor.

Sandy88 wrote:Lol I wish that last part were true. Bolts are much better by comparison.

Scotty1992 wrote:What is a Bolt? What aircraft has the best legs in your experience?

Sandy88 wrote:Bolt is what we've been dubbing the F-35, I know the USAF Weapons School has been rolling with Puma but I'm not sold. Anyway, if you want longevity get you a global hawk or MQ-9 those bad boys can stick around for 24 hours but if your strictly talking air-to-air fast movers the Bolt takes it by a mile.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2018, 10:12
by spazsinbad
'BOLT' is not gunna FLY NAVY - too much like the BOLTER BOLTER BOLTER LSO call when aircraft bolters (misses wires).

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 05:29
by Dragon029
More:
Scotty1992 wrote:Cheers. How do you guys find the capabilities of the F-35?

Sandy88 wrote:If I could have them on every mission I would. Absolute powerhouse with the only limiting factor being missiles.


delta9991 wrote:I figured the -35 would would be great with gas (love your nickname for it btw), but I figured the Raptor wouldn’t be as constrained as legacy platforms for the same reasons. Are the Raptors much better than legacy jets on endurance and the -35 even better or are the Raptors more or less like the legacy platforms.

Sandy88 wrote:On the open source side the Raptor can cover great distances quickly due to its Super Cruise many people confuse this with a long on-station time when in reality its really closer to an F-15C unless they put bags on the jet but then you lose all the advantages of being "stealthy". I was blown away by the Bolts loiter times when I first worked with them it really is an amazing jet. I'm pretty sure the -35 will end up being called the Puma my unit just uses Bolt for now.

delta9991 wrote:F-15C with or without bags endurance? Still not too shabby either way. Great information, thank you for your time and service!

Sandy88 wrote:Without.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 06:16
by spazsinbad
:devil: My FAVE F-35 FITER PILOTE QUOTE EVA:


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 07:01
by SpudmanWP

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 13:59
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Dragon, I looked over a bit of that thread and noticed some asked Sandy88 if they were you.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 14:12
by Dragon029
He wasn't; the "u/dragon029" is the user Scotty1992 tagging me in a comment (put a "u/" before any username and that person gets notified that they were mentioned; Reddit accounts have urls of reddit.com/u/username) and essentially letting me know that the thread was something I might be interested in reading.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 16:29
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Okay, got it. I don't do Reddit so I don;t know those details.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 01:38
by spazsinbad
Just bekoz today & Oz: https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/strik ... e-concerns
"...the F-35, which Chief of Air Force, Air Marshal Leo Davies is quoted as saying will "replace nothing, because they change everything"...."

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 20:43
by playloud
lrrpf52 wrote:
...scoring as many as 27 “kills” in a single sortie

:wtf:

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 21:51
by playloud
Unless my definition is wrong, each plane is its own sortie. A four-ship would be 4 sorties. But the part you highlighted shows they did indeed include the wingmen. They shouldn't have said a single sortie though.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 22:20
by spazsinbad
Just to add another equation changer... somewhere I've seen reference to a FIVE aircraft formation (perhaps Oz?)….

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 23:24
by spazsinbad
It is just bad communication, nothing new in that at all. Always operational details are obscure and they will get obscurer.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 23:55
by vilters
If I was going to fly the F-35 it would sound something like this : "Skinny is gonna fly fatty". LOL.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 00:11
by quicksilver
lrrpf52 wrote:
playloud wrote:Unless my definition is wrong, each plane is its own sortie. A four-ship would be 4 sorties. But the part you highlighted shows they did indeed include the wingmen. They shouldn't have said a single sortie though.

You're right about the definition of a sortie in military aviation.

It would have been accurate for them to say "within the duration of his sortie", but that wouldn't print well for that particular release.


"It would have been accurate for them to say..." [my emphasis added]. It wasn't 'them' who said it; it was the author of the article.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 02:39
by spazsinbad
spazsinbad wrote:Just to add another equation changer... somewhere I've seen reference to a FIVE aircraft formation (perhaps Oz?)….

Have not found the 'five F-35 formation' so far however have found many references to the four aircraft variety. What I recall for the FIVE is that the leader was in the centre of the form with four others at points of the compass heading N.
"...The F-35 is designed to fly in groups of four and they are all supposed to share their data with each other. The military doesn’t like to talk about it, but the planes do not fly in a tight formation. It’s more like a diamond spread out over dozens or hundreds of miles. [Gen. Bogdan] … viewtopic.php?f=61&t=26629&p=287971&hilit=diamond+formation#p287971

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2018, 11:48
by spazsinbad
No one has commented on why FIVE F-35s in a Diamond with fifth in middle is useful - using MADL at 10nm for example looks thusly:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- N

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10 Nm

------------------------------------------------ W ----- 10 Nm -------- M ------- 10 Nm ------------ E

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10 Nm

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- S

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2018, 11:54
by spazsinbad
"...Norwegian Air Force Major Morten Hanche, who piloted one of the Norwegian F-35s, said the mock fight with the F-22s was great practice, especially since the F-35s generally surprise and overpower other non-stealthy aircraft...." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1L01YX

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2018, 15:39
by steve2267
Spaz, are you referring to the concept that the middleman avoids a visual deadspot in the middle of the diamond?

That 5-ship diamond results in a better "mesh" topology. But if 10nm spacing is "optimal" for visual detection and mutual aid, then why not fly a 4-ship (if 5 are not available) line abreast spaced at 10nm intervals? If any one ship detects the enema, they can blow through (or engage), but all your buddies could "collapse" on the bandit from the sides. So a line-abreast would be like a 1-D mesh, though the mesh would not be as robust as a 2-D (e.g. diamond) mesh.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2018, 15:59
by popcorn
Don't know how important visual detection is when employing multiple 5gens. Obviously sensors and data links coverage extend BVR. There is an account of a F-22 pilot taking off and never catching sight of the other planes in his flight until they RTB.

I could imagine a benefit of the middle ship as a relay, allowing for a more widely dispersed.flight?

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2018, 16:19
by steve2267
My comment was made with an eye towards the recently reported exercise between Norwegian F-35's and USAF F-22's.

I do not know the reason behind a middleman in a diamond, if that is even a thing, but was positing some possible reasons why you might put someone there.

Here's a different thought. Lest we get caught up in planar thought... Could the middleman be flying 5-10,000 feet lower or higher than the other aircraft? More of a tetrahedron shape? Of course, now you would have different fuel burn rates between elements of your formation.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2018, 20:32
by castlebravo
If the flight leader out front is going to attract the enemy's attention, and the guy in the back is going to be blasting away with his APG-81 tracking all the targets, maybe the guy in the middle needs to be lined up behind the flight lead to jam anything attacking him. Meanwhile, the other two approach off-angle and slide the knife in without ever emitting anything.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2018, 03:07
by element1loop
Good point steve. Having a pyramid shaped high-cover would be really useful. Plus for extending sensors and comms footprint and triangulation. Plus getting a longer spear throw. Don't know that different fuel burns would be a problem as such, more an advantage to have one guy with more alt and gas remaining to accelerate fast to a loft launch, plus more potential energy, plus adds a hi-lo flanking option to left and right. Would this arrangement be more useful for EA use or cover on SAMs? Better SAR mapping? Better EOTS search scan, while the other guys focus on particulars? Better for negating precipitation/obscurants or clutter and terrain shadow? Better multi-angle sensor-fusing sensor inputs? Seems like a lot of potential benefits to exploit.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2018, 03:21
by madrat
Asymmetrical formations may prove useful with stealth whereas being predictable with multiple assets tends to promise diminishing returns.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2018, 03:46
by element1loop
Thing is, even if you encountered an F-35, which is known to use a 5-ship diamond wide-open formation, you still don't know what part of the diamond you've stumbled into, so you still don't know what directions the other F-35s are in.

But even if you had a magic sensor, which could see them all, but not target them directly, that combat loiter/cruise formation distribution would still be very difficult one to crack, and it can deform to flank and engage you as required, then resume its shape.

i.e. it's a tactical starting-point in a fight, not a proscriptive or restrictive shape to maintain into a fight. It's essentially a 'ready' stance to default to, before and after a fight.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 17:20
by spazsinbad
This is perhaps 'the quote' that I Have MISREMEMBERED - by adding ONE to the number - but good replies to THE FIVE! :mrgreen:
Counting the JSF cost is tricky business viewtopic.php?f=58&t=23043&p=315303&hilit=growler#p315303
Feb 2016 ADM Julian Kerr

"[AVM Deeble] ...the RAAF's JSF fighting methodology would probably start with a three-ship formation flying tens of miles apart but operating in concert, exchanging and fusing data from each other over a much larger area of airspace.

"But the real power of this aircraft will be once you start utilising a four ship formation and integrating it as envisaged in Plan Jericho with other capabilities like Wedgetail, Poseidon, Triton, Growler, Super Hornet and the Air Warfare Destroyer."..."

Source: http://www.australiandefence.com.au/home/adm-editions

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 19:12
by energo
spazsinbad wrote:
"...Norwegian Air Force Major Morten Hanche, who piloted one of the Norwegian F-35s, said the mock fight with the F-22s was great practice, especially since the F-35s generally surprise and overpower other non-stealthy aircraft...." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1L01YX


Great Scott! Those darn stealth contraptions. Went completely under the radar. :crazypilot:

Official story:
https://forsvaret.no/aktuelt/f-35-og-f- ... te-i-norge (Translated link)

U.S. F-22 Raptors Fly With Norwegian F-35 Lightning II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dl2sOWOvrY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViVg7o3htaU

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 19:47
by spazsinbad
All we need is radio GooGoo Radio GahGAh: https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=
Here meets the world's best combat aircraft across Norway [anodyne stuff indeed]
15 Aug 2018 Anders Fjellestad

"...- ****** well [true dat]
The two American F-22s are temporarily stationed at the Spangdahlem Air Base, west of Germany, and belong to the American Air Force's 95th Squadron in Florida. For two weeks, the planes will train in Europe as part of the American European Deterrence Initiative. The initiative will strengthen cooperation between the United States and the country's European Allies. Both F-22 and F-35 are five-generation combat fighters, and together they form a formidable combat force.

"There is no doubt that it's a very fast airplane that kicks off well. This was also the first time my American colleague got training on an F-35, so it was a good intro for us to fly and work out, "Hanche says...."

Source: https://forsvaret.no/aktuelt/f-35-og-f- ... te-i-norge

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 20:24
by steve2267
Another "eye watering" quote, but not from Gen. Pleus. Rather this one by a patch wearer, a USAF Fighter Weapons School grad, which, IMO, makes it that much more impressive.

Operational Assessment of the F-35A Argues for Full Program Procurement and Concurrent Development Process
by John Venable August 4, 2016, The Heritage Foundation

...

The F-35A was not designed to be an air superiority fighter, but the pilots interviewed conveyed the picture of a jet that will more than hold its own in that environment—even with its current G and maneuver restrictions. In the words of an F-16C Weapons School Graduate and instructor pilot now flying the F-35A, “Even pre-IOC,[26] this jet has exceeded pilot expectations for dissimilar combat. (It is) G-limited now, but even with that, the pedal turns[27] are incredible and deliver a constant 28 degrees/second. When they open up the CLAW, and remove the (7) G-restrictions, this jet will be eye watering.”[28]

...

[28] Personal interview with former F-16C pilot currently flying the F-35A, April 18, 2016.

https://www.heritage.org/defense/report/operational-assessment-the-f-35a-argues-full-program-procurement-and-concurrent

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2018, 14:01
by sferrin
When is the 7G restriction going away?

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2018, 14:23
by steve2267
It went away with the rolling out to the fleet of the 3F software, didn't it?

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2018, 14:28
by Dragon029
Yep, went away back in February.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2018, 17:58
by steve2267
In addition to being a great quote, the reason I posted that last quote is because you have an F-16 patch wearer stating the F-35A maneuvering performance will be (now, is) eye watering.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 13:39
by operaaperta
A couple of interesting quotes from Lt Col Christine Mau who has over 2000hrs in F15E and was first female F35A Pilot. Both quotes from presentation to Smithsonian.

At 1.04.33 when quizzed about CAS role and comparison to A10:
...as far as endurance goes...we’ve got a lot of gas, in fact the legs on the F35 are longer than the legs on an F15E, based on my experience. Internally we carry 18,000lbs of gas on the A model, and we’ve got one engine, it’s pretty impressive.


At 57.40 when asked about M1.6 top speed of F35 compared to faster fighters:
...[in my whole flying career] let me just tell you this, I’ve never flown faster than M1.5, and the Strike Eagle can go faster than M2, so I just don’t know if there is a whole...I know there’s tactical implications for that, but it’s not something we’re typically relying on, on a daily basis.


Source- [YouTube]https://youtu.be/BmPAUdVNmXE[/YouTube]

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 18:24
by spazsinbad
Take this text string from YouTube URL: BmPAUdVNmXE & mash it into the youtoob brackets:

[youtube]BmPAUdVNmXE[/youtube (however the last closing bracket left out so youse can see the niceties then close it...


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2018, 21:50
by doge
operaaperta wrote:
...as far as endurance goes...we’ve got a lot of gas, in fact the legs on the F35 are longer than the legs on an F15E, based on my experience. Internally we carry 18,000lbs of gas on the A model, and we’ve got one engine, it’s pretty impressive.

Wow! :shock: Longer leg than F-15E...F-35's long leg...! Amazing...!! 8)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2018, 04:32
by element1loop
doge wrote:
operaaperta wrote:
...as far as endurance goes...we’ve got a lot of gas, in fact the legs on the F35 are longer than the legs on an F15E, based on my experience. Internally we carry 18,000lbs of gas on the A model, and we’ve got one engine, it’s pretty impressive.

Wow! :shock: Longer leg than F-15E...F-35's long leg...! Amazing...!! 8)



I'm not surprised doge. Clean short wing and large lift body means much higher "economical" cruise speed, plus much better altitude for that cruise, combined with designed-in engine optimisations for a burn at that typical best upper altitude cruise speed band--this all adds up to a predictably outstanding best specific-consumption speed and altitude at ISA and weight.

As I pointed out two days ago, that understated range can be extended much further yet. Increasing it by another ~40% to 50% within 10 years should be possible from here. And once you do that the realisable tactical options rise, even as the support aircraft and crewing costs fall further.

viewtopic.php?p=400617#p400617

i.e.

Add a variable cycle engine = 20% range growth
Add conformal tanks = 10% range growth
Use C wing & supercruise @ 》60K ft engine optimisation = 15% range growth.

(the thin air actually means much lower drag for a given IAS on the longer C wing and its larger area, and the higher mach at that alt will equare to lower consumption per knot, which means a vast improvement in specific consumption will be achieved)

Combined, it means the net specific-consumption changes can be expected to fall between 40% to 50%, which translates to a directly proportionate range increase of 40% to 50% higher than present at the resulting (much higher) best speed-altitude bands. The aircraft radius growth potential is quite staggering for such a small jet--and it should be fully exploited as it can make an F-15E look very pedestrian.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 04:17
by spazsinbad
Video Quote excerpts from 'operaaperta' video post at end of August above on this page in this thread....

F-35A Lt.Col MAU Range & Speed Quote 'Views from the Cockpit' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDRVDdBpc0c


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 05:17
by Corsair1963
Nice.... :D

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 12:37
by ricnunes
Regarding the long legs of the F-35 and having a longer range than the F-15E for example is IMO no surprise at all.

If one may notice, I don't think it was "by chance" (or because of "economics") that the development of the F-35's external fuel tanks was postponed (or cancelled?).

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 14:24
by aasm
ricnunes wrote:Regarding the long legs of the F-35 and having a longer range than the F-15E for example is IMO no surprise at all.

If one may notice, I don't think it was "by chance" (or because of "economics") that the development of the F-35's external fuel tanks was postponed (or cancelled?).


F15 with or without external tanks?

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 14:40
by ricnunes
aasm wrote:
ricnunes wrote:Regarding the long legs of the F-35 and having a longer range than the F-15E for example is IMO no surprise at all.

If one may notice, I don't think it was "by chance" (or because of "economics") that the development of the F-35's external fuel tanks was postponed (or cancelled?).


F15 with or without external tanks?


Well, in the "Israel Pays for Additional F-35s" thread (here: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=29374&start=375 ) you can read the following (posted by Corsair1963):

Plus, comments made by "Lt. Col. David “Chip” Berke, USMC (Ret), former F-22 and F-35B pilot now the Force Management Branch Chief on the Joint Staff J-8, and Lt. Col. Scott “CAP” Gunn, USAF, the commander of the 33rd Operational Support Squadron at Eglin AFB, Fla., discuss the capabilities of the F-35 Lightning II fighter with Defense & Aerospace Report Editor Vago Muradian after the conclusion of a panel discussion on 5th generation combat aircraft sponsored by the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies at the US Capitol."

Q: "How's the range of the aircraft from an operator perspective?"

CAP: "I think people that say it doesn't have the range are someone that probably looks at a single-engine aircraft and think so it's just an F-16. It aint an F-16.

I fly on a regular basis two training stories worth of training that I would do in an F-15C model with two external tanks on it. So I would go up go out and do one offensive push where we do basically one offensive strike into the area and out and hey I'm bingo I've got to go home on fuel with the F-15C.


When reading above and specially the part which I put on bold and underline, one can reach the conclusion that the F-35 has either similar or even better range than a F-15C with two (2) external fuel tanks.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 14:58
by mixelflick
I disagree, and read it this way...

The F-35 is capable of performing 2 "offensive pushes" to the F-15's 1. Which is to say, the F-35 has far better range than an F-15C with 2 external tanks.

Either way, the F-35's range is truly impressive. 18,000lbs of gas, 1 engine and incredible lift provided by the whole airframe. Plus, no drag when using internal weapons... :)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 15:07
by spazsinbad
F-15C with two external tanks is a DOG compared to the F-35A according to USAF Lt.Col CAP GUNN former F-15C pilote….

F-35A Range Quote Pilots Berke Gunn + Muradian 10 Nov 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX-rlGDcU9A


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 15:48
by ricnunes
mixelflick wrote:I disagree, and read it this way...

The F-35 is capable of performing 2 "offensive pushes" to the F-15's 1. Which is to say, the F-35 has far better range than an F-15C with 2 external tanks.

Either way, the F-35's range is truly impressive. 18,000lbs of gas, 1 engine and incredible lift provided by the whole airframe. Plus, no drag when using internal weapons... :)


Yes, I agree with you and after reading it again, yes you're right.

Anyway your better interpreted view of the previous quote clearly answers aasm's question of: "(F-35 better range than) F15 with or without external tanks?" and the (clear) answer seems to be:
- With external fuel tanks.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 18:54
by SpudmanWP
The 590nm refers to the estimated range during SDD. The latest SAR puts the "demonstrated" combat radius for the F-35A (with ~4700lbs of internal stores) at 669nm and a recent LM do puts the A2A (~1500lbs of internal stores) combat radius at 760nm.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2018, 05:20
by Corsair1963
Traditional combat dogma measures aerial combat in terms of kinematics. In other words, how fast and high can an aircraft go as well as how many Gs can it pull. The F-16 Fighting Falcon, F-18 Super Hornet and even the more recent Eurofighter Typhoon all operate according to these principles. But with a subsonic top speed of 700 knots and reaching a speed of 1.6 Mach, as well as the ability to sustain 9 Gs, the Lightning II more than holds its own in the dogfights that dominate traditional battle spaces.

“(It) flies like an F-15, fights like an F-18,” said Billie Flynn, a former Hornet pilot in the Canadian Air Force and now a Lightning II test pilot for Lockheed.


Although the Lightning II is not designed specifically for traditional dogfights, it has pitch authority comparable to the Super Hornet, which allows the aircraft pilot to get inside the turning radius of his opponent. In other words, it can bring its nose to bear on a target very quickly. Although Flynn was hesitant to reveal details, he did admit its capabilities were similar to the Raptor, which can swing its nose around while remaining virtually still. Of course, the Lightning II might be better, he hinted with a grin.

“That fight we thought we had in the legacy world, it’s Top Gun, isn’t it? Really never got any more sophisticated than that, with missiles…that shoot more than 90 degrees off your shoulder. That fight doesn’t happen anymore. That fight happens in a heartbeat – I look over and I kill you. It’s over; that’s it,” Flynn said.

https://ramblernewspapers.com/2014/01/f ... l-warfare/

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2018, 05:46
by spazsinbad
:applause: Nice find - thanks for this. I'm warming to the bug-eyed boyo FLYNN. :mrgreen: Good quotes in story for sure.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2018, 06:14
by popcorn
Although Flynn was hesitant to reveal details, he did admit its capabilities were similar to the Raptor, which can swing its nose around while remaining virtually still. Of course, the Lightning II might be better, he hinted with a grin.

Billie is such a tease
:mrgreen:

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2018, 07:20
by spazsinbad
Heheh. He does get HET up - lookie this 'brungit' video for a quotable quote just posted by 'Corsair1963' in another thread.

Billy Flynn F-35 Top Speed [& Top Weight/Fuel/Arms] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_b6vCOLLz8


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2018, 07:25
by Corsair1963
Brig. Gen. Scott Pleus, 56th Fighter Wing Commander

"If you were to engage an F-35 in say, a visual dogfight capability," he added, "the capabilities of the F-35 are absolutely eye-watering compared to a fourth-generation fighter."

"The airplane has unbelievable maneuvering characteristics that make it completely undefeatable in an air-to-air environment. So if it's a long-range contact, you'll never see me and you'll die, and if it's within visual-range contact you'll see me and you're gonna die and you're gonna die very quickly,"

https://www.businessinsider.com/general ... f35-2017-1

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2018, 07:34
by Corsair1963
Not as agile as the Super Hornet nor as fast as the Typhoon? Don’t you believe it, says Lockheed Martin test pilot Billie Flynn. He will put the F-35A through its paces at Le Bourget this week, proving that the aircraft is more maneuverable than any he has flown, he says, including Boeing’s F/A-18, the Eurofighter, and his own company’s F-16 Viper.

The F-35’s maneuverability is all the more impressive because, unlike the F-16s that perform at air shows, the Joint Strike Fighter flying the demonstration this week is fully combat-ready. Flynn’s F-35A will move easily through complex aerial maneuvers loaded with everything it needs to go to war.

“All of those airplanes that do air shows—the Hornet, Viper—they are all slicked off without all the external stores,” Flynn said. “They are a party trick at an air show, versus a combat-configured F-22 or F-35.”

The flight demonstration is carefully scripted to highlight the kinematic capabilities of the F-35A, particularly its slow-speed handling qualities, said Flynn. He will start with an afterburner takeoff, almost immediately pointing his nose to the sky and letting the aircraft climb away essentially vertically. This impressive move is unique to the F-22 and the F-35, he said.


http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35-de ... nformation

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2018, 07:54
by Corsair1963
spazsinbad wrote:Heheh. He does get HET up - lookie this 'brungit' video for a quotable quote just posted by 'Corsair1963' in another thread.

Billy Flynn F-35 Top Speed [& Top Weight/Fuel/Arms] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_b6vCOLLz8




bring_it_on posted it to youtube first....he deserves all the credit.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2018, 09:30
by element1loop
... “When you talk about the lethality of the strategic surface to air missiles that exist out there today, they’ll kill non-stealthy airplanes at dramatic ranges. I cannot believe…a commander will allow non stealthy airplanes in the battle space, because he’s not going to put guys at risk. You’re going to sit at the back of the line, the back of the bus if you don’t have an airplane with this kind of capability.” ...


He's ... he's not talking about Rafale or Gripen .. is he? :)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2018, 10:05
by spazsinbad
Corsair1963 wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Heheh. He does get HET up - lookie this 'brungit' video for a quotable quote just posted by 'Corsair1963' in another thread.

Billy Flynn F-35 Top Speed [& Top Weight/Fuel/Arms] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_b6vCOLLz8

bring_it_on posted it to youtube first....he deserves all the credit.

:shock: Aaahh you missed my 'brungit' wordplay joke for 'bring_it_on'. Oh well.... :roll:

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2018, 22:00
by steve2267
[b][/b]Happened across this quote in a different thread (viewtopic.php?p=213132#p213132). The original article does not appear to exist anymore.

Joint Strike Fighter may miss acceleration goal
By Dave Majumdar - Staff writer Posted : Wednesday Jan 18, 2012 19:07:16 EST

<snip>

U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Eric Smith, director of operations at the 58th Fighter Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., and F-35 test pilot, said that flying the aircraft is a thrilling experience.

I can’t even explain the adrenaline rush you get when you light the afterburner on that thing,” Smith said. “The acceleration is much better than an F-16.

<snip>

Original URL: http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/20 ... al-011812/

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2018, 22:50
by SpudmanWP

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2018, 11:58
by nutshell
Words of col. Davide Marzinotto (32° Stormo Aeronautica Militare):

Tl;dr version:
"In an aerial combat we used to make considerations such as -i can pull it off-; -i'm rolling the dices here- ; -gotta be careful here- ; aboard a F35 i can't think of nothing but - sucks to be the guy on the other side"

http://www.difesaonline.it/evidenza/int ... uzione-f35

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2018, 14:50
by spazsinbad
'nutshell' italiano translated googoo: https://translate.google.com.au/transla ... edit-text=
Revolution F35
01 Oct 2018 Andrea Cucco

"Amendola airport eloquently sums up the leap made by the Italian Air Force with the F35 ...

I'm at the bar to get the pass to access the base when suddenly a roar of reactors echoes in the air. After a few moments, behind the dated faded green buildings in front of the main entrance, they emerge cabrando and suddenly veering two pairs of F35 left. In rapid sequence!

The thought can not immediately avoid the comparison with the feeling that it felt when arriving at an Air Force base until a few decades ago: it was an armed force with in-line aircraft that in some films were remembered by grandparents and exhibited in museums aviation, like the F104.

For heaven's sake, over time successful aircraft, such as the G91, the Tornado, up to the dear Eurofighter, have alternated. The silhouettes that appear today in the sky are nevertheless futuristic: finally we have the most advanced aircraft (on the market), the only one from a generation to fly in hundreds of specimens! Over 300 on over 3000 under construction.

The Amendola base, which is about fifteen kilometers from Foggia, is by extension the second in Europe, preceded only by that of Ramstein, in Germany.

Structures with many years behind them alternate with brand new. As the first location designated to host the Lightning II is changing skin and in a few years, where before there were expanses of grass, now hang hangar and impressive buildings designed to house command centers, training, simulators.

The first appointment is with the protagonist of the base: the Joint Strike Fighter. It's the first time we see it so closely.

The commander of the 32nd Wing, Colonel Davide Marzinotto, has followed the program for years, in Italy and in the USA since the operational requirements of the machine have been defined. It is (symbolically) one of the officers with whom we have been waiting for years to speak, from which to have answers. Thanks to the new communication directives based on the transparency of the new Minister of Defense - finally - we can have a meeting.

Commander, the 32nd is the first departmental state to receive the F35. A result to highlight.
There are many events and elements to highlight; among these, the first transversal Atlantic carried out by a JSF assembled in Italy certainly deserves a mention: a confirmation of the excellent capacity and production quality of the FACO of Cameri. In confirmation of this I can tell you that many procedures of our assembly line have been taken as a model and "transplanted" in the USA, after having checked the quality of Italian manufacturing.

The aircraft is characterized by an operational polyfunctionality.
The history of military aviation has seen a development aimed at creating increasingly specialized aircraft. This happened due to technological limitations: speed with bombing, reconnaissance or other capabilities were not always compatible.

With the arrival of "multi-role" assets, the airplanes have become "reconfigurable" to satisfy different missions. However, all this did not occur at the same time. It happened on the ground and it cost time.

The revolution that represents the F-35 is due to its DNA "omnirole": the aircraft can perform multiple missions simultaneously, without needing to return to the base to be reconfigured.

Perhaps the value in all of this is not immediately comprehensible to all. I can assure you that this is something revolutionary.

Does this entail a high degree of specialization for pilots?
The machine allows you to train in all specialties.

Electronic war included?
Certainly.

How did this result come about?
Thanks to the systems technology. Let's think about the F104 . 80% of the pilot's work was directed to the operation of the aircraft, the residue to the sensors. Over time, the operating behavior of the fighters has evolved. With it the amount of information available, data must be filtered and valued according to the tactical situation.

The uniqueness of the F-35 derives from the immense ability to collect and process information, which, through on-board sensors and / or shared with other assets, allow to widen the horizon and assess threats in an impossible time even just to imagine. A little like facing a simple icon provided by the software of a telephone rather than the complex computer language below. We have more data, greater accuracy and reliability and above all it all happens in real time.

What is required by modern F-35 pilots?
The processing and management capacity of the systems with respect to the aircraft's ability to conduct is certainly more important. We are facing a generational change and new skills are required. After all, one notices this change already in the family when a child picks up a parent's cell phone ...

Computers, as was already the case with Eurofighter, have alleviated the processing capacity of the pilot, allowing better use.

Does the 5 - generation technology combine well in an environment of sometimes backward, sometimes outdated, assets?

It does so sometimes surprisingly: the sharing of information makes the F-35 a "multiplier". Let me explain: there are weapons systems that until recently were considered dated. Thanks to the system set up allowed by the sharing of the information of the new fighter, many assets have achieved a real second life.

All this computerization will make that cyber one of the main threats ...

Obviously, various levels of security and reliability of the links of the aircraft are set up. An aspect not even minimally neglected.

The development of the F-35 also met many unexpected events and delays ...
I would like the audience to understand a key aspect. In the past, the development of a weapon system was "sequential": requirements were formulated, it was passed to a project, to tests, to prototypes ...

The concept behind the development of the JSF program was that of "concurrency": it was necessary to realize thousands of aircraft, not hundreds. To do this it was necessary that the development of some components proceeded in parallel. Waiting for the completion of a phase like in the past would have delayed putting the aircraft online and therefore increasing costs.

Example of this, the aircraft software?
Exactly: the versions provided the ability to conduct and use the systems that progressively expanded and expanded. The software available today is the so-called "3i" (89% of the combat capacity, nda), soon the fleet can be updated to the "3f" standard simply by loading the new SW. The 3f upgrade will express the operational capabilities established by the project thus concluding the development phase.

Has the problem of the pilots' helmet (see Article ) been exceeded?
It is a limit condition linked to the ejection which, however, does not affect any pilot in service in the Armed Force. None of our pilots is even vaguely close to that extreme case, in terms of height and weight parameters.

In any case, a new helmet is being developed, the "GEN3-Light" which will also eliminate this limitation.

To conclude, can you describe the thrill of being at the controls of the most advanced fighter?
I piloted numerous aircraft, from AMX to Eurofighter. What immediately strikes is the simplicity of the conduct of the aircraft.

And then?
When you are in the air, you are impressed by the perception of the expanded awareness provided by the sensors: a world opens up and you are left speechless.

In an air confrontation at one time there were considerations like "Here me the cable ...", "Here I play it ..." or "Here I have to be careful".

On board an F-35 the thought can not be other than "Poor one who is on the other side !!!""

Graphic: http://www.difesaonline.it/sites/defaul ... %205_0.JPG

Source: http://www.difesaonline.it/evidenza/int ... uzione-f35

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 31 Oct 2018, 10:24
by spazsinbad
LM Test Pilot Billie Flynn 'F-35C Best Wing' Airframe of Variants https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OdiPeGz1HA