Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 16:50
by SpudmanWP
“If the pilots of both {F-22/35} could carry a 9mm and open the canopy inflight, they would have 15 more kills per sortie,” the senior Air Force official told me. “It's like fighting Mr. Invisible.”


DAVE MAJUMDAR
http://www.scout.com/military/warrior/s ... 2-and-f-35

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 17:16
by spazsinbad
Some proof reading required - me likee: "...After a very thorough examination, my flight surgeon gave her ascent [consent] and I was cleared to fly...."

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 17:27
by alloycowboy
spazsinbad wrote:Some proof reading required - me likee: "...After a very thorough examination, my flight surgeon gave her ascent [consent] and I was cleared to fly...."


I think the author ment to use (assent) there but his autocorrect was being egalitarian.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 18:38
by playloud
SpudmanWP wrote:
“If the pilots of both {F-22/35} could carry a 9mm and open the canopy inflight, they would have 15 more kills per sortie,” the senior Air Force official told me. “It's like fighting Mr. Invisible.”


DAVE MAJUMDAR
http://www.scout.com/military/warrior/s ... 2-and-f-35


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 18:59
by armedupdate
This proves how clueless the Eurofighter/Rafale fanboys.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 19:10
by steve2267
Flying Against the F-22 and F-35
by Dave Majumdar

...
While the Raptor would be the most formidable fighter in the world due to its raw performance even without stealth, it’s now clear to me that even the F-35 with its mediocre kinematic performance will be an extremely dangerous foe in the air due to its low radar cross-section and sensors. “If the pilots of both could carry a 9mm and open the canopy inflight, they would have 15 more kills per sortie,” the senior Air Force official told me. “It's like fighting Mr. Invisible.”





armedupdate wrote:This proves how clueless the Eurofighter/Rafale fanboys.


Actually, wrt the F-35, Mr. Majumdar himself appears fairly clueless. Or else an anti-F-35 bias blinds him to its performance. Compared to the F-22, one may argue the F-35 has mediocre kinematic performance. But then so would all other 4 and 4+ gen aircraft. By all pilot accounts, the F-35 is at least as good as the F-16C Block 50 kinematically, yet I do not recall many sources running around describing the F-16 has having poor kinematic performance. (In fact, many would rather buy more F-16's rather than the F-35. So they must think the F-16 has decent or good kinematic performance.)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 22:10
by scx
I think that the misconceptions about the F-35 Kinematics/E-M/Maneuverability is so rooted and stuck in the public opinion that peoples think it's a fact that the F-35 has a mediocre kinematics.
Another thing is the fact that it's not the full maneuverability capability yet, although the current F-35 has a good maneuverability, it is still limited by the 3i software.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2017, 23:30
by steve2267
And yet I do not feel it is unreasonable to expect, or to hold, a journalist (or a blogger who holds himself out to be an expert) who writes on defense / aerospace issues to educate themselves on the currents capabilities of the equipment about which they write; also to challenge their own personally-held beliefs or biases if for no other reason than to try to maintain some semblance of intellectual honesty.

One would think that Mujumdar, especially after trumpeting his decade long "friendships" with Raptor pilot(s), should be capable of asking some simple questions about F-35 kinematic performance rather than simply parroting the commonly held misconception that it is a poor performer.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2017, 19:47
by XanderCrews
Thank God he managed to get that "Mediocre" in there :roll:

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2017, 19:49
by XanderCrews
steve2267 wrote:And yet I do not feel it is unreasonable to expect, or to hold, a journalist (or a blogger who holds himself out to be an expert) who writes on defense / aerospace issues to educate themselves on the currents capabilities of the equipment about which they write; also to challenge their own personally-held beliefs or biases if for no other reason than to try to maintain some semblance of intellectual honesty.

One would think that Mujumdar, especially after trumpeting his decade long "friendships" with Raptor pilot(s), should be capable of asking some simple questions about F-35 kinematic performance rather than simply parroting the commonly held misconception that it is a poor performer.


'
He whined long enough to find himself in the back of an F-15. so he could "learn first hand" ...Interesting method of rewarding critics.

... Ive been on the wrong side to get free stuff this whole time :doh:

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2017, 19:57
by spazsinbad
Slight Correction (and agree 'I'm a critic - I'm a critic - fly me - fly me!):
"...the Air Force arranged for me [Majumdar] to fly onboard a 71st FTS Northrop T-38A on an operational training sortie during the third week of Atlantic Trident 17..."

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 00:30
by XanderCrews
spazsinbad wrote:Slight Correction (and agree 'I'm a critic - I'm a critic - fly me - fly me!):
"...the Air Force arranged for me [Majumdar] to fly onboard a 71st FTS Northrop T-38A on an operational training sortie during the third week of Atlantic Trident 17..."


My mistake.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 01:01
by nutshell
Easy one guys:

"Can't turn, can't climb, can't turn".

The F35 pilots should also add a sticker "i wish i could fly a Pak-Fa"

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 01:08
by spazsinbad
XanderCrews wrote:Thank God he managed to get that "Mediocre" in there :roll:

Yeah I thought Dave MumbleJar was coming around to 'getting' the F-35 - he used to do so - when he was a proper reporter and not just a hit merchant but as we see perhaps - perhaps, perchance to dream.... :roll:

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 21:55
by firebase99
Stumbled on this forum a few weeks ago. What a great place, so much stuff going on. In any event, I love fighter jets. Fell in love with the the 4 gens growing up, etc. Recently Ive been really researching about the new stuff. This may sound like fluff, or whatnot, but I can read energy pretty good when it comes to flight. Anyway, was at an airshow in S. Carolina last week and had an F-35B there. Marine Air..VSTOL. It is the heaviest of the variants but it LOOKED like it had a SLIGHTLY bigger turning circle than F16C block 32 (The viper did his 1/4 mile 9g 360 turn) BUT appeared a bit faster, maybe 400KIAS Rate Kills...So if he wasnt sandbagging the F35 that VSTOL is a pretty serious maneuvering machine. F35A can likely do even better.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 22:04
by SpudmanWP
The F-35B that you saw was flying with either has Block 2B or 3i which are both limited to 5.5Gs. The F-35B will open up to 7Gs with Block 3F coming out next year.

Image

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2017, 23:07
by steve2267
Norwegian F-35 pilot: ‘We are on track’
by AIRheads/EH 3-27-2017

<snip>

AHF: What has been your most memorable F-35 experience so far?

'Dolby' Hanche: "Another more specific highlight would be the first time I fought F-16s. It was impressive to see just how uneven that fight is, in favor of the F-35.”

http://airheadsfly.com/2017/03/27/norway-f-35-pilot-we-are-on-track/


No ideas of the parameters (e.g. altitude) of that fight. But given that many have stated the F-16 Block 50 (commonly referenced in F-35 comparisons) is the equal of the Typhoon up to 10,000 ft or so... Dolby's statement would seem to lend credence to LM test pilot Billy Flynn's statements that the Lightning has better E-M performance than any 4th gen aircraft out there, including the Typhoon. Mr. Flynn should know, me thinks, as he was a former test pilot driver of the Tiffy.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2017, 00:40
by quicksilver
firebase99 wrote:Stumbled on this forum a few weeks ago. What a great place, so much stuff going on. In any event, I love fighter jets. Fell in love with the the 4 gens growing up, etc. Recently Ive been really researching about the new stuff. This may sound like fluff, or whatnot, but I can read energy pretty good when it comes to flight. Anyway, was at an airshow in S. Carolina last week and had an F-35B there. Marine Air..VSTOL. It is the heaviest of the variants but it LOOKED like it had a SLIGHTLY bigger turning circle than F16C block 32 (The viper did his 1/4 mile 9g 360 turn) BUT appeared a bit faster, maybe 400KIAS Rate Kills...So if he wasnt sandbagging the F35 that VSTOL is a pretty serious maneuvering machine. F35A can likely do even better.


The 'C' is the heaviest of the variants...

'Radius' also kills.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2017, 20:35
by kimjongnumbaun
An F-35 pilot explains how the stealth fighter can have a crushing psychological effect on the enemy

"I've seen guys in F-18s turn directly in front of me and show me their tails cause they have no idea I’m there."

"Everything they see becomes the F-35 out there," said Flatley. "Every radar hit, every communication is about the stealth jet. They want to illuminate or eliminate a threat they can’t handle."

"People are so hellbent on shooting down the stealth fighter that they invariably make mistakes that I can exploit."

http://www.businessinsider.com/psycholo ... ter-2017-5

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 09:34
by spazsinbad
Yeah this quote could go in the Lakenheath thread and several other places such as 'weaps&tactics' but hey I'm going here:
F-35A, F-15 Pilots Train Together During Lakenheath Deployment
04 May 2017 U.S. European Command ["we are your overlords" (Led Zepplin - Immigrant Song)]

"...“For me, it’s my first time dogfighting against an F-15,” said Air Force Maj. Luke Harris, a 34th Fighter Squadron F-35A pilot. “Dogfighting is a test of pilot skill, but it’s also constrained by the aircraft’s capabilities, and I’ve been really impressed by the flight control and maneuverability of the F-35.”

However, with the F-35A’s stealth capability, dogfights aren’t likely, Harris said. Stealth, he said, allows pilots to fly undetected to a “visual merge” and engage air targets before enemies have time to react defensively, which is an advantage over the fourth-generation tactics he employed when he flew the F-16."

Source: https://www.f35.com/news/detail/f-35a-f ... deployment

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 09 May 2017, 20:47
by firebase99
quicksilver wrote:
firebase99 wrote:Stumbled on this forum a few weeks ago. What a great place, so much stuff going on. In any event, I love fighter jets. Fell in love with the the 4 gens growing up, etc. Recently Ive been really researching about the new stuff. This may sound like fluff, or whatnot, but I can read energy pretty good when it comes to flight. Anyway, was at an airshow in S. Carolina last week and had an F-35B there. Marine Air..VSTOL. It is the heaviest of the variants but it LOOKED like it had a SLIGHTLY bigger turning circle than F16C block 32 (The viper did his 1/4 mile 9g 360 turn) BUT appeared a bit faster, maybe 400KIAS Rate Kills...So if he wasnt sandbagging the F35 that VSTOL is a pretty serious maneuvering machine. F35A can likely do even better.


The 'C' is the heaviest of the variants...

'Radius' also kills.


Yes, radius too, thats why stated the F35 turn looked slightly bigger (radius). Speed is life they say and rate kills. I didnt know the C was the heaviest. At any rate (get it?), i think it looked great out there.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 05:45
by steve2267
Pilots Say F-35 Superior Within Visual Range: Dogfight Criticisms Laid To Rest
by Colin Clark, June 19, 2017

I asked one of the Air Force pilots, Lt. Col. Scott “Cap” Gunn, here whether the F-35 would win when fighting close-up with an enemy fighter. His answer was simple: “Without a doubt.”

Gunn told reporters at a briefing here that he had gone up against a friend in an F-16 a few months ago. Though the F-35 “performed very well,” he made clear that it hadn’t been dominant. They flew again recently and the F-16 pilot was amazed by the improvement in the F-35’s performance. “What have they done to your jet?” the pilot said, according to Gunn. “The difference is we have learned how to fly the jet… and better understand where its advantages are.”

Gunn went on to say that he “either never got it within visual range, or, if I’m going to be inside visual range, then it’s because I’m going to choose to be there.” That seems to make clear the aircraft’s vaunted fusion engine and advanced sensors — all tied into the pilot’s helmet — provides the pilot with enough warning and data to allow him to decide the terms of combat.

https://breakingdefense.com/2017/06/pilots-say-f-35-superior-within-visual-range-dogfight-criticisms-laid-to-rest/


If you can control or dictate the terms of the fight... haven't you already won? Sun Tzu or something like that?

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 08:53
by popcorn
"In the F-35 I can generate a wormhole in the airspace and lead everyone through it. There isn’t another platform around that can do that."

- UK Tornado Pilot

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 09:23
by popcorn
“You start with 10 times more power, and if you are much closer and you are alternating signals between four airplanes with a stealth data link between them, you can do that jamming in a coherent, cooperative manner. The signal, the technique, everything is done for [the pilot].”

- LM Vice President Stephen O'Bryan comparing the F-35 to the EA-6B in jamming role

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 11:10
by spazsinbad

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 12:40
by hornetfinn
kimjongnumbaun wrote:An F-35 pilot explains how the stealth fighter can have a crushing psychological effect on the enemy

"I've seen guys in F-18s turn directly in front of me and show me their tails cause they have no idea I’m there."

"Everything they see becomes the F-35 out there," said Flatley. "Every radar hit, every communication is about the stealth jet. They want to illuminate or eliminate a threat they can’t handle."

"People are so hellbent on shooting down the stealth fighter that they invariably make mistakes that I can exploit."

http://www.businessinsider.com/psycholo ... ter-2017-5


It must be really scary fighting against F-35 or F-22, be it inside a fighter plane or SAM system. The psychological effect will be there even if there is not a single F-35 or F-22 in the air, because the enemy will not know for sure. That will be very exhausting mentally.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 14:21
by steve2267
"The F-35 is the best air-to-air airplane in the world, except for the F-22," he said. "The F-22 is the best air-to-ground aircraft in the world except for the F-35."

-- Air Combat Command Gen. "Hawk" Carlisle

https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... neral.html

https://www.investors.com/news/reports- ... ted-today/


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 14:34
by steve2267
As I Googled for several quotes that I recalled, I have come across other great quotes and articles. Major Morten «Dolby» Hanche has several quotes. His blog and a related article are pure gold and worth a re-read, IMO.

The F-35 in a dogfight – what have I learned so far?
Major Morten "Dolby" Hanche 1 Mar 2016

Since I first wrote this post, I have flown additional sorties where I tried an even more aggressive approach to the control position – more aggressive than I thought possible. It worked just fine. The F-35 sticks on like glue, and it is very difficult for the defender to escape.


http://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampfl ... ed-so-far/

--also--
https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/01/h ... d-account/


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 14:39
by nutshell
spazsinbad wrote:



Wtf is that ? :D

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 14:39
by steve2267
"It forces the Russians to take a look at what we are doing and to realize that if they had to embrace us they might be in a position where they had to jump into a boxing ring and fight an invisible Muhammad Ali."

-- Gen. Tod Wolters, commander of US Air Forces in Europe

Amanda Macias, Sep. 20, 2016
http://www.businessinsider.com/wolters- ... ali-2016-9

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 14:52
by steve2267
Several excellent quotes from Brig. General Scott Pleus:

"I can tell you that it is by far the best platform I've ever flown in my entire life, and at that you would have to take me on my word."

"In terms of lethality and survivability, the aircraft is absolutely head and shoulders above our legacy fleet of fighters currently fielded. This is an absolutely formidable airplane, and one our adversaries should fear."

"You never knew I was there. You literally would never know I'm there. I flew the F-35 against other fourth-generation platforms and we killed them and they never even saw us."

"If you were to engage an F-35 in say, a visual dogfight capability, the capabilities of the F-35 are absolutely eye-watering compared to a fourth-generation fighter."

"The airplane has unbelievable maneuvering characteristics that make it completely undefeatable in an air-to-air environment. So if it's a long-range contact, you'll never see me and you'll die, and if it's within visual-range contact you'll see me and you're gonna die and you're gonna die very quickly."

'One our adversaries should fear': US Air Force General describes how the F-35 is above and beyond the competition
Amanda Macias 26 Dec 2016
http://www.businessinsider.com/general- ... f35-2017-1


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 15:26
by steve2267
"The F-35 is comparable or better in every one of those metrics, sometimes by a significant margin, in both air-to-air, and when we hog-up those fourth-generation fighters, for the air-to-ground mission."

If one were to overlay the energy-maneuverability (E-M) diagrams for the F/A-18, F-16 or Typhoon over the F-35's, "It is better. Comparable or better than every Western fourth-generation fighter out there," Flynn says. That applies even to the F-35 B and C models with their respective 7g and 7.5g limits. "You're not going to see any measurable difference between the aircraft," Flynn says. In terms of instantaneous and sustained turn rates and just about every other performance metric, the F-35 variants match or considerably exceed the capabilities of every fourth-generation fighter, he says.

7 Feb 2013
IN FOCUS: Lockheed claims F-35 kinematics ‘better than or equal to’ Typhoon or Super Hornet
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-382078/


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 15:37
by steve2267
Especially love this tweet from Billie Flynn

Raging pulling G out over Atlantic Ocean in CF-5. Love this jet...flies like a kite and turns like a snowboard in deep powder snow.

3 Mar 2017
https://mobile.twitter.com/billieflynn/ ... 76/photo/1


Image

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 19:12
by spazsinbad
:devil: The F-35 family (the BUTT Sistas) kickin' BUTT! Now that would be my favourite pilot crewroom quote. :devil: Come On. 8)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 01:33
by nutshell
But Bertha is a big woman tho :D

We need a sister which is chubby !

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 03:52
by spazsinbad
:devil: Right On BRUTHA! :doh:

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 12:29
by juretrn
“There is nothing that I have seen from maneuvering an F-35 in a tactical environment that leads me to assume that there is any other airplane I would rather be in. I feel completely comfortable and confident in taking that airplane into any combat environment,” Lt. Col. Matt Hayden, 56th Fighter Wing, Chief of Safety, Luke AFB, Arizona, told Scout Warrior in a special pilot interview last year.

More ammo in favour of the F-35 ;) ;)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2018, 18:12
by mixelflick
"Can't turn, can't climb and can't run" is going to haunt APA for a loooong time :)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 03:12
by popcorn
The F-35 is fantastic.. it's got sass, it's got class and it's going to protect your a$$. :mrgreen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21ETvx7jPLM

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 03:25
by spazsinbad
Ah the 'popcorn' (is it salty or sugarcoated?) is back: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=52749&p=363745&hilit=21ETvx7jPLM#p363745

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 04:04
by XanderCrews
mixelflick wrote:"Can't turn, can't climb and can't run" is going to haunt APA for a loooong time :)


They will just edit that out, or write yet another contradictory "white paper"

Have you seen them flip flop on the Super Hornet? right down to trying to say they will sue if you show that they once praised it?

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 04:09
by rheonomic
XanderCrews wrote:
mixelflick wrote:"Can't turn, can't climb and can't run" is going to haunt APA for a loooong time :)


They will just edit that out, or write yet another contradictory "white paper"

Have you seen them flip flop on the Super Hornet? right down to trying to say they will sue if you show that they once praised it?


I'm shocked, shocked that APA has questionably academic integrity.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 04:23
by Corsair1963
When asked about my first flight in the F-35, I compared it to flying a Hornet (F/A-18), but with a turbo charged engine. I now can quote a USMC F/A-18 Weapons School Graduate after his first flight in the F-35: «It was like flying a Hornet with four engines!»


http://www.businessinsider.com/leaked-d ... ree-2016-9

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 04:40
by XanderCrews
rheonomic wrote:I'm shocked, shocked that APA has questionably academic integrity.


I was surprised too!!

Image

I laughed liked this^^

2.7 Observations
The Super Hornet is a fighter with exceptional handling qualities, even by modern fighter standards, which even a novice can handle comfortably and with confidence at the edge of the low speed manoeuvre envelope.

The point which Boeing and the US Navy have made most convincingly, is that the aircraft's flight control software is so robust that even a beginner on the type can fly it without embarrassing himself too badly. Sceptics should note that test pilot comments about fighters with this generation of flight controls being as easy to fly as a Cessna 172 are indeed correct. There is no room for argument here, as I had the opportunity to observe first hand!

In the hands of an experienced combat pilot, such flight control software means that the pilot can be wholly focussed on the furball in progress, and need not devote any thought to pushing the aircraft past the edge into a uncontrolled departure and resulting risk of a ground impact or successful enemy missile shot. The importance of a substantially departure resistant aircraft, especially if encumbered with stores, cannot be understated - carefree handling translates directly into combat effectiveness.

In a low speed post-merge manoeuvring fight, with a high off-boresight 4th generation missile and Helmet Mounted Display, the Super Hornet will be a very difficult opponent for any current Russian fighter, even the Su-27/30. The analogue and early generation digital flight controls with hard-wired or hard-coded AoA limiters used in the Russian aircraft are a generation behind the Super Hornet and a much more experienced pilot will be required for the Russian types to match the ease with which the Super Hornet handles high alpha flight regimes.

The reports emanating from carrier landing trials performed in the US cannot be disputed, the aircraft is a sheer delight in the circuit and will take much of the anxiety out of night and bad weather traps, especially for nugget fighter-attack pilots.

The cockpit ergonomics build upon two decades of Hornet experience, and make for a very comfortable and easy to use cockpit environment. Again, a novice pilot will find the MFD modes easy to navigate and easy to follow. The colour moving map display makes navigational orientation ridiculously easy, against the mental chores of VOR/DME/TACAN, radar mapping and INS/map-on-the-knee navigation. The prospect of MIDS/RWR/radar/IFF tracks being overlayed on the moving map will take much effort out of maintaining wider area situational awareness.

The radar is very easy to use in MMTI, GMTI and SAR spot mapping modes, and provides an excellent tool for highly accurate all weather maritime strike, littoral strike and battlefield interdiction operations. In particular, the ability to interleave MTI and surface mapping modes is exceptionally useful for resolving and identifying moving surface targets of opportunity.

In conclusion, the reports of the Hornet's exceptional high alpha handling characteristics are provably correct. Established Hornet users should not be disappointed by this aircraft!



But then all of the sudden the RAAF, an "Established Hornet user" purchased Super Hornets!:

In summary, the Flanker outperforms the Super Hornet decisively in aerodynamic performance. What advantage the Super Hornet now has in the APG-79 radar will vanish in coming years as Russian AESAs emerge. The one area in which the Flanker currently trails the Super Hornet is in radar signature (stealth) performance. The Super Hornet has inlet geometry shaping, inlet tunnel S-bends, and an AESA shroud all of which reduce its forward sector signature well below that of the Flanker.

In the short term, this is an advantage the Super Hornet retains, with the caveat that external stores put hard limits on signature improvement for the Super Hornet. However, Russian researchers have done some excellent work over the last decade in absorbent materials and laminate techniques for radar signature reduction, which offer the potential for the Flanker to achieve similar signature reduction to the F/A-18E/F. If funded, a reduced signature Flanker is feasible in the next half decade.

In conclusion, the Flanker in all current variants kinematically outclasses the Super Hornet in all high performance flight regimes. The only near term advantage the latest Super Hornets have over legacy Flanker variants is in the APG-79 AESA and radar signature reduction features, an advantage which will not last long given highly active ongoing Russian development effort in these areas. The supercruising Al-41F engine will further widen the performance gap in favour of the Flanker. What this means is that post 2010 the Super Hornet is uncompetitive against advanced Flankers in BVR combat, as it is now uncompetitive in close combat





And they updated with this

APA Notice

This article predates the mid December, 2006, announcement by Defence that Super Hornets may be sought as gap fillers for the RAAF, and subsequent decision to acquire these aircraft. The article does not constitute an endorsement of that proposal in any fashion and should not be interpreted to be such by any parties. It concentrates primarily on the history and flying qualities of the aircraft. Any attempt to present this article as an endorsement of the Super Hornet decision will be considered to be intentional and mischievous misrepresentation.


So don't go using their own words against them smart guy.

what part of:

the Flanker in all current variants kinematically outclasses the Super Hornet in all high performance flight regimes.

and

the Super Hornet will be a very difficult opponent for any current Russian fighter, even the Su-27/30.

don't you understand?

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 04:43
by rheonomic
«It was like flying a Hornet with four engines!»


I've heard this before from Lightning drivers I've talked with.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 11:50
by juretrn
So APA legit wrote SH can outperform the Flanker?
Can't wait to throw that article into a Flanker fanboys' face. :)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 13:03
by optimist
APA have packed up their tent and moved on. Even hords/goon's twitter is a shadow of it's former lunacy. Perhaps the meds are kicking in?

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 14:18
by mixelflick
juretrn wrote:So APA legit wrote SH can outperform the Flanker?
Can't wait to throw that article into a Flanker fanboys' face. :)


I'll have to see it to believe it. IF it's true, where should I go for aviation entertainment (on the same level)? I know all about Sputnick news but Kopp and Goon reside(ed) in a higher plane of denial IMO..

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 17:49
by XanderCrews
juretrn wrote:So APA legit wrote SH can outperform the Flanker?
Can't wait to throw that article into a Flanker fanboys' face. :)



It's a critical insight into their bias as well. They wrote glowingly of the super hornet, until the RAAF bought them which threw the wrench into the F-22 for Australia agenda. Then, overnight super hornet was bad and not good enough.

So even within airpower Australia lore they are full of it. I'm actually shocked they keep the original pro super hornet piece up there

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 02:00
by element1loop
XanderCrews wrote:It's a critical insight into their bias as well. ... which threw the wrench into the F-22 for Australia agenda. Then, overnight super hornet was bad and not good enough.

So even within airpower Australia lore they are full of it. ...


At that time Kopp described SH as a good proxy for getting F-15Es.

Crazy thing is, if you read his wet-dream wishlist for Pigs + Raptor combo, it's like reading a list of the capabilities of the SH + Lightning combo ... except the latter are actually far more capable than his wet-dream wishlist.

Abuse Peter and the wolf syndrome = No cred

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 02:24
by zerion
nutshell wrote:Wtf is that ? :D


You haven't heard about the troglodytes?


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 03:27
by element1loop
This ...

tailgate [F-22A pilot retired] wrote:

"... I have asked a bud of mine who is still flying [F-]15’s what were his thoughts [facing F-35 in air combat].....he said two words to me......and I quote ‘Holy Crap'. This guy has over 5 grand [5,000 hours] in the Eagle. I trust his judgement ..."

Source:
viewtopic.php?p=387036#p387036

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 02:48
by popcorn
“It will first of all be about survival. Do you want to be the Eagle or the Chicken in an airpower confrontation?"
- Lt.Gen. Pasquale Preziosa, Italian AF CoS, on F-35 acquisition in Oct. 2013

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 08:29
by zero-one
mixelflick wrote:"Can't turn, can't climb and can't run" is going to haunt APA for a loooong time :)


It's already starting to bite them from behind..
This quote is from the Aviationist website, a traditionally anti-F-35 blog

https://theaviationist.com/2018/04/09/t ... -it-wrong/
According to author Dr. Carlo Kopp, the F-35A dimensions are oddly similar to the F-105. But among several critical differences is the wing surface area, with the F-35A having larger wing surface area and the resultant lower wing loading than the F-105. Other major differences are the F-35A’s low observable technology and greatly advanced avionics, data collecting, processing and sharing capability. Finally, the F-35A is purpose-built for a wide range of mission sets, whereas the F-105 was predominantly a high-speed, low-level nuclear strike aircraft poorly suited for conventional strike.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 15:37
by steve2267
zero-one wrote:
https://theaviationist.com/2018/04/09/t ... -it-wrong/
According to author Dr. Carlo Kopp, the F-35A dimensions are oddly similar to the F-105. But among several critical differences is the wing surface area, with the F-35A having larger wing surface area ...


"Larger wing surface area"? Then the dimensions aren't so similar...

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 15:45
by zero-one
Actually even the dimensions aren't similar at all

F-35A:
Length: 50.5 ft (15.67 m)
Wingspan: 35 ft (10.7 m)
Height: 14.2 ft(4.33 m)
Wing area: 460 ft² (42.7 m²)

F-105D:
Length: 64 ft 4.75 in (19.63 m)
Wingspan: 34 ft 11.25 in (10.65 m)
Height: 19 ft 8 in (5.99 m)
Wing area: 385 ft² (35.76 m²)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 16:25
by element1loop
Forget it, Kopp was using the similitude as assertion only to paint (smear and denigrate) the F-35A with a dismissive "bomb truck" lable, implying it to be a desasterous option, and the RAAF had no clue what it was doing, and dearly needed Carli to guide them to the deeper truths. Way too much time has been wasted talking about that guys' warped dead-wrong partisan agendas and denial of a plethora of facts and counterpoint.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 17:13
by mixelflick
Personally, I'm enjoying all the crow Pierre Sprey, APA etc are eating. And it's only going to get worse for them...

I for one am really jazzed watching the USAF, Marines, allies and soon the Navy take delivery of a brand new fighter jet. I was too young to understand what was going on when the F-15/16 entered service - though I came to love those aircraft. The F-16 went IOC in what, 1979? The F-15 well before that and of course the F-14 toward the end of Vietnam. Even when the F-18 was new (1982) I couldn't grasp what a jump in lethality those jets brought.

But I'm 48 now, and can clearly understand the F-35's importance. Exciting times, watching it mature and such. The 20:1 kill ratio reports from Red Flag. The Paris display. The eventual combat record. I'm so happy for the men who fly her, and everyone that's involved with the program really. Given my age, it's probably the last time I'll see a new "fighter" introduced. Sobering thought, but I'll die easier knowing American air power is still leaps and bounds ahead of the threat...

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 23:20
by popcorn
Can we please get back to F-35 favorite quotes?

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 23:38
by popcorn
"Everything they see becomes the F-35 out there...Every radar hit, every communication is about the stealth jet. They want to illuminate or eliminate a threat they can't handle...It has nothing to do with their skill or technology. They're at such a technological disadvantage... I've seen guys in F-18s turn directly in front of me and show me their tails cause they have no idea I'm there...It aggregates to a completely inept response to what we're doing in the air..People are so hellbent on shooting down the stealth fighter that they invariably make mistakes that I can exploit."

- Maj. Dan Flatley, USMC( ret.)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2018, 11:36
by mk82
popcorn wrote:"Everything they see becomes the F-35 out there...Every radar hit, every communication is about the stealth jet. They want to illuminate or eliminate a threat they can't handle...It has nothing to do with their skill or technology. They're at such a technological disadvantage... I've seen guys in F-18s turn directly in front of me and show me their tails cause they have no idea I'm there...It aggregates to a completely inept response to what we're doing in the air..People are so hellbent on shooting down the stealth fighter that they invariably make mistakes that I can exploit."

- Maj. Dan Flatley, USMC( ret.)


Damn!!!! That says it all.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2018, 16:54
by gta4
XanderCrews wrote:
rheonomic wrote:I'm shocked, shocked that APA has questionably academic integrity.


I was surprised too!!

Image

I laughed liked this^^

2.7 Observations
The Super Hornet is a fighter with exceptional handling qualities, even by modern fighter standards, which even a novice can handle comfortably and with confidence at the edge of the low speed manoeuvre envelope.

The point which Boeing and the US Navy have made most convincingly, is that the aircraft's flight control software is so robust that even a beginner on the type can fly it without embarrassing himself too badly. Sceptics should note that test pilot comments about fighters with this generation of flight controls being as easy to fly as a Cessna 172 are indeed correct. There is no room for argument here, as I had the opportunity to observe first hand!

In the hands of an experienced combat pilot, such flight control software means that the pilot can be wholly focussed on the furball in progress, and need not devote any thought to pushing the aircraft past the edge into a uncontrolled departure and resulting risk of a ground impact or successful enemy missile shot. The importance of a substantially departure resistant aircraft, especially if encumbered with stores, cannot be understated - carefree handling translates directly into combat effectiveness.

In a low speed post-merge manoeuvring fight, with a high off-boresight 4th generation missile and Helmet Mounted Display, the Super Hornet will be a very difficult opponent for any current Russian fighter, even the Su-27/30. The analogue and early generation digital flight controls with hard-wired or hard-coded AoA limiters used in the Russian aircraft are a generation behind the Super Hornet and a much more experienced pilot will be required for the Russian types to match the ease with which the Super Hornet handles high alpha flight regimes.

The reports emanating from carrier landing trials performed in the US cannot be disputed, the aircraft is a sheer delight in the circuit and will take much of the anxiety out of night and bad weather traps, especially for nugget fighter-attack pilots.

The cockpit ergonomics build upon two decades of Hornet experience, and make for a very comfortable and easy to use cockpit environment. Again, a novice pilot will find the MFD modes easy to navigate and easy to follow. The colour moving map display makes navigational orientation ridiculously easy, against the mental chores of VOR/DME/TACAN, radar mapping and INS/map-on-the-knee navigation. The prospect of MIDS/RWR/radar/IFF tracks being overlayed on the moving map will take much effort out of maintaining wider area situational awareness.

The radar is very easy to use in MMTI, GMTI and SAR spot mapping modes, and provides an excellent tool for highly accurate all weather maritime strike, littoral strike and battlefield interdiction operations. In particular, the ability to interleave MTI and surface mapping modes is exceptionally useful for resolving and identifying moving surface targets of opportunity.

In conclusion, the reports of the Hornet's exceptional high alpha handling characteristics are provably correct. Established Hornet users should not be disappointed by this aircraft!



But then all of the sudden the RAAF, an "Established Hornet user" purchased Super Hornets!:

In summary, the Flanker outperforms the Super Hornet decisively in aerodynamic performance. What advantage the Super Hornet now has in the APG-79 radar will vanish in coming years as Russian AESAs emerge. The one area in which the Flanker currently trails the Super Hornet is in radar signature (stealth) performance. The Super Hornet has inlet geometry shaping, inlet tunnel S-bends, and an AESA shroud all of which reduce its forward sector signature well below that of the Flanker.

In the short term, this is an advantage the Super Hornet retains, with the caveat that external stores put hard limits on signature improvement for the Super Hornet. However, Russian researchers have done some excellent work over the last decade in absorbent materials and laminate techniques for radar signature reduction, which offer the potential for the Flanker to achieve similar signature reduction to the F/A-18E/F. If funded, a reduced signature Flanker is feasible in the next half decade.

In conclusion, the Flanker in all current variants kinematically outclasses the Super Hornet in all high performance flight regimes. The only near term advantage the latest Super Hornets have over legacy Flanker variants is in the APG-79 AESA and radar signature reduction features, an advantage which will not last long given highly active ongoing Russian development effort in these areas. The supercruising Al-41F engine will further widen the performance gap in favour of the Flanker. What this means is that post 2010 the Super Hornet is uncompetitive against advanced Flankers in BVR combat, as it is now uncompetitive in close combat





And they updated with this

APA Notice

This article predates the mid December, 2006, announcement by Defence that Super Hornets may be sought as gap fillers for the RAAF, and subsequent decision to acquire these aircraft. The article does not constitute an endorsement of that proposal in any fashion and should not be interpreted to be such by any parties. It concentrates primarily on the history and flying qualities of the aircraft. Any attempt to present this article as an endorsement of the Super Hornet decision will be considered to be intentional and mischievous misrepresentation.


So don't go using their own words against them smart guy.

what part of:

the Flanker in all current variants kinematically outclasses the Super Hornet in all high performance flight regimes.

and

the Super Hornet will be a very difficult opponent for any current Russian fighter, even the Su-27/30.

don't you understand?


This is because he does not consider low speed dogfight as high performance fighter regime.
And, If he read the manual carefully, he will notice that super hornet out accelerate all flanker variants at subsonic (except su35)
And, The pirouette maneuver of super hornet can help it outturn most flanker vatiants.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2018, 23:07
by popcorn
“We are not going to let the enemy dictate what we do now...I can float the aircraft carrier anywhere I want, I can float this offshore to any country, any continent and I can fly in when I choose – not when they permit me to do so...There is nothing they can do.”

- Wing Commander James Beck

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2018, 23:16
by popcorn
"When we're sitting here on USS America, a ship that was built for the F-35, with the F-35 in mind, and you put 6 or 8 or 12 F-35s on this ship, this ship instantly becomes the most powerful concentration of combat power to put to sea in the history of the world."

Maj. John Dirk, USMC

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 00:01
by lrrpf52
As you look at the F-35s combat capabilities, what two things really mark it as either a superior or inferior weapon compared to what you have previously flown?

Mo: The closer you get to the airplane, the more positive you are about it.
The airplane provides awareness of what is going on around you. All around you. It is second to none.
I tell people this all the time.
I cannot tell you how awesome the sensor suite is, combined with the survivability of the airplane.
It’s not just that it is a stealth airplane, it is everything rolled into one.
It makes it unlike any other plane anywhere in the world right now.


BC: Stealth works. Low observability is not a fallacy.
You see it in the airplane and realize what a powerful capability it is.
None of the airplanes we flew prior had that capability.

Guts: Situational awareness and the freedom of maneuver that stealth brings. The workload required to have that unprecedented SA is greatly reduced over previous platforms.

I’m getting all this information, I have freedom to maneuver, and I work significantly less than I did in a previous platform to have that level of information.

That frees up my processor to be able to fight the battle vs. each individual part that I used to have to put together.
The workload is reduced in all aspects of flight, and that enables me to focus on the fight at hand.


Mo: The aircraft allows me to be a tactician, rather than worry about physically manipulating sensors to get information I need. I have a good picture that I can execute tactically.

It is almost like a chess game. I can make sure the moves I make in the cockpit are the best moves not just for me, but for everybody out there.


Can you describe what the F-35 allows you to do from a tactical perspective that the 4th Gen platforms could not do?

Mo; The sensors on the airplane are our center of gravity. Our ability to know what’s going on around us in the battlespace and then push that to everybody we are working with.

Not just air to air (A2A), but air to ground (A2G) as well. Add our ability to operate in areas that we have never been able to before such as contested environments.

Physically flying the airplane is extremely easy, that’s the beauty of it, so you just focus on the tactical employment.

It makes you much more lethal.

https://sldinfo.com/2016/12/the-moment- ... aordinary/

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 00:06
by lrrpf52
Guts: "My first “aha” moment was a seemingly simple thing.

I was executing a familiarization flight near MCAS Yuma. I was coming back to the airfield and I basically just turned the jet and pointed its nose at Yuma.

Immediately the jet is providing me the information of all the traffic that is out there in the airspace.

When I talk to approach for the first time they are telling me about the traffic that is out there that I already know about and I see it.

I can tell who everybody is that he is talking about and the jet also saw traffic that ATC hadn’t seen yet and I asked about it. And I thought, “holy cow,” here I am coming back to the field from a simple familiarity mission and my jet is telling me everything about the operational environment I am about to go into.

In this case, something very simple, the traffic pattern coming back there, but I didn’t have to do anything to have that level of SA."

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 00:13
by lrrpf52
BC: I was conducting a strike mission and Red Air was coming at me. In a 4th Gen fighter you must do a whole lot of interpretation. You see things in azimuth, and you see things in elevation. In the F-35 you just see the Gods eye view of the whole world. It’s very much like you are watching the briefing in real time.

I am coming in to perform the simulated weapons release, and Red Air is coming the other direction.
I have enough situational awareness to assess whether Red Air is going to be a factor to me by the time I release the weapon. I can make the decision, I’m going to go to the target, I’m going to release this weapon.

At the same time I pre-target the threat, and as soon as I release the A2G weapon, I can flip a switch with my thumb and shoot the Red Air. This is difficult to do in a 4th Gen fighter, because there is so much manipulation of systems in the cockpit.

All while paying attention to the basic mechanics of flying the airplane and interpreting threat warnings that are often very vague, or only directional.

In the F-35 I know where the threats are, what they are and I can thread the needle. I can tell that the adversary is out in front of me and I can make a very, very smart decision about whether to continue or get out of there. All that, and I can very easily switch between mission sets.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 11:55
by spazsinbad
OH this is so sad - how many times do we have to say THINK DIFFERENT and we still have endless this v that threads. :devil:
"...The F-35 “really is a leap forward compared to anything we operated before,” said Butcher, Wing Commander John Butcher [who previously flew Harriers and F/A-18 Hornets]. “The fact that it can see and hear at such significant ranges, it has all the sensors and the technology that will support the pilot in the cockpit to make quick, good decisions—that for me is the thing that changes with this platform.”...

...Butcher’s 617 Sqdn. includes a mix of experienced aviators and four brand-new pilots. It is these young men and women, climbing into the F-35 with no preconceptions, who will be key to developing tactics for the new stealth fighter, Butcher said.

The pilots “need to forget what they knew before. They need to come with a new portfolio, a new idea in their heads of exactly what it is they need to do with the platform to make it air combat effective,” Butcher said. “All of the previous tactics and the way we used to fight are very much gone.”..." http://aviationweek.com/defense/uk-s-ro ... 5-squadron [repeated on the UKmodInAmuddle thread]

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 23:51
by popcorn
“The F-35 is a great airplane. The comments that I make about the F-35 are about program execution. There’s a real difference. The airplane itself is a high-performing, advanced, fifth-generation fighter.”

Patrick M. Shanahan - DEPSECDEF and former Boeing Sr. VP

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2018, 12:59
by spazsinbad
This is the LONGEST QUOTE one would wish to hear from retired LtCol USMC 'Chip' Berke in .WMA format - others too large. Thanks 'SWP' for editing the youtube video from 'Dragon029' which excerpt this WMA sound only file consists. :mrgreen:

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2018, 20:54
by lrrpf52
I don't have to maintain what doesn't exist...

The plane has NONE of the items that are traditionally on airplanes to transmit and receive. It does not have any of those.

What it has is a rack of two CNI (Combat, Navigation and Identification), Com and Navigation racks.

It has two racks and you tell the airplane: "I would like to transmit in the UHF wave form and it generates that wave form and transmits in the UHF waveform." which is a difficult concept to think about.

There is no UHF radio on the airplane.

There is no ILS on the airplane.

If I want an ILS I have to go in, tap on my glass, and say, "Hey, good morning jet. I’m going to need an ILS today so I need you to generate the ILS waveform when I need it."


What does this mean in terms of performance and maintainability?

I do not have to maintain what is not there; I do not need to be affected by failure rates of systems that are no longer there.

Let me use the example of the IFF transponder, which I do not have on the plane as a separate system. On an F-15E, you can walk to the ramp and open up a panel and you can find a little box that has all sorts of cannon plugs on it and it would say ITT transponder.

And if it fails during the operation, when you come back you tell maintenance, it does not work.

They’d undue the cannon plugs, they’d pull out this IFF, they’d send it to the back shop, they’d go through all the testing, they’d figure out, they’d fix it, and it would come back.

They would put another one in. Well, this airplane doesn’t have that to either fail or to fix.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 06:27
by hornetfinn
Another great thing in having radio frequency systems software defined is that upgrading and improving the systems does not usually need any hardware modifications and can be made very quickly. Need new waveforms or new features in old waveforms? Just upgrade the software which might take couple of minutes or even less and there you have all those new capabilities. Of course in real life there are always some hardware limitations and some larger upgrades might need upgraded hardware also. But they are also easier to make as there are much less done with hardware and there is less physical stuff that needs to be changed.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 06:48
by hornetfinn
Billie Flynn about F-35 hot/cold weather testing:
F-35 weather testing

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 08:18
by spazsinbad

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 22:28
by jedigman
Billie Flynn adressing Turkish delegation who are there for rollout ceremony of Turkey's first F-35.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 23:03
by spazsinbad
The KIDS are going to ROOL in F-35 - OLDies be damned! My take away from Billie Flynn explaining how good it all will be.


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 20:54
by lrrpf52
I talked with a new F-35A pilot with 388th at Hill AFB open house yesterday.

He looked to be half my age, but was very much appreciative of the aircraft's capabilities. He said on drop night at the end of flight training, he got slotted for F-35A, even though F-22 was his first pick. He said, "Knowing what I know now, I'm so glad it worked out that way."

"Everything I've seen about performance and detection range out in the open is very misinformed. We can get in way closer than any of the numbers I've seen."

While we were chatting, the ordnance folks were literally loading up GBU-12s and AIM-9Xs on external pylons.

He said they are just beginning to expand the capabilities. We were talking about how the gun is more in-play going offensive from unobserved approaches, and he got excited with a large smile. "That's the idea."

It was very interesting to listen to his perspective, especially as a brand new F-35 driver speaking with a reasoned level of confidence coming from a situational awareness and VLO conversation, instead of maneuverability, speed, etc.

This is a totally different organizational conversion from the days of the F-4E and A-7D to the F-15 and F-16. Pilots who converted to the Eagle or Fighting Falcon would talk about things in terms of comparison to what the older jets could do with re: maneuverability, better cockpit layout, and avionics.

This is something else.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2018, 13:57
by mixelflick
lrrpf52 wrote:I talked with a new F-35A pilot with 388th at Hill AFB open house yesterday.

He looked to be half my age, but was very much appreciative of the aircraft's capabilities. He said on drop night at the end of flight training, he got slotted for F-35A, even though F-22 was his first pick. He said, "Knowing what I know now, I'm so glad it worked out that way."

"Everything I've seen about performance and detection range out in the open is very misinformed. We can get in way closer than any of the numbers I've seen."

While we were chatting, the ordnance folks were literally loading up GBU-12s and AIM-9Xs on external pylons.

He said they are just beginning to expand the capabilities. We were talking about how the gun is more in-play going offensive from unobserved approaches, and he got excited with a large smile. "That's the idea."

It was very interesting to listen to his perspective, especially as a brand new F-35 driver speaking with a reasoned level of confidence coming from a situational awareness and VLO conversation, instead of maneuverability, speed, etc.

This is a totally different organizational conversion from the days of the F-4E and A-7D to the F-15 and F-16. Pilots who converted to the Eagle or Fighting Falcon would talk about things in terms of comparison to what the older jets could do with re: maneuverability, better cockpit layout, and avionics.

This is something else.


VERY interesting.

Thanks for sharing :)

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 15:38
by steve2267
The F-35 pilot has the option to continuously point the nose at the adversary, even at ridiculously slow speeds, which is a great capability to have in combination with high off-boresight missiles and a helmet mounted sight.
-- Lt Col Ian Knight

Out of the Shadows // Test Report // Dutch F-35 Update, Frank Crebas, http://www.combataircraft.net, May 2018, p.33


Knight divulged a little more information about flying basic fighter maneuvers (BFM) in an F-35. ‘When our envelope was cleared to practise BFM we got the opportunity to fight some fourth generation fighters. Remember, back then the rumors were that the F-35 was a pig. The first time the opponents showed up [in the training area] they had wing tanks along with a bunch of missiles. I guess they figured that being in a dirty configuration wouldn’t really matter and that they would still easily outmaneuver us. By the end of the week, though, they had dropped their wing tanks, transitioned to a single centerline fuel tank and were still doing everything they could not to get gunned by us. A week later they stripped the jets clean of all external stores, which made the BFM fights interesting, to say the least…"
-- Lt Col Ian Knight

Out of the Shadows // Test Report // Dutch F-35 Update, Frank Crebas, http://www.combataircraft.net, May 2018, p.33

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 17:57
by spazsinbad
The SIX page PDF :devil: 'ONLY THE SHADOW NOSE' :devil: has been posted earlier May 2018:
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=54012

PDF download: Dutch F-35As OUT of the SHADOWS - Combat Aircraft May 2018 pp6.pdf
download/file.php?id=26975 (PDF 1.91Mb) [downloaded sum 2,229 times already even]

Three page text PDF of goodygoody Quotes about fightin' dogs attached.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 20:48
by steve2267
Yup. But when I searched this thread, none of those goodygoody quotes showed up. Soze I figured I'd throw 'em out for all to see. They seemed particularly apropos given recent discussion about the "infamous" "dogfight" test, and Spurts discussing a hugely enlarged E-M diagram possibly at 19,000 ft and comparing turn performance to the Viper.

I figger in that article that it wuz Vipers that the Panthers were raping. Don't think any other combat jet would drop all the way down to single centerline tanks.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2018, 05:40
by steve2267
popcorn had a nice link to a British Tornado pilot's thoughts about the F-35 over in the UK muddle thread. Here's a nice quote:

No 17(R) Test and Evaluation Squadron, called the Black Knights, has been re-established as the UK’s premier unit for developing and realizing the potential of the Lightning II. Now based in the California desert at Edwards, handpicked personnel of this famous squadron are already engaged in the operational evaluation of the F-35 — learning about, flying, and maintaining this advanced fighter.

Wing. Cmdr. Jim Beck, the first officer to command a UK F-35 squadron, leads the Black Knights. ...

...

The system is clearly impressing Beck, who is a former Tornado pilot. “I simply cannot explain to you how good this sensor suite is,” he said. “It is mind-blowing. We don't actually even need to carry a weapon, albeit we can. I can track targets, identify them all, after having turned [nose] cold [away from the targets], then datalink that information to my Typhoons. The Typhoon pilots can then carry their ordnance to bear against the targets.

“So, I’ve identified everything at distances that no one thought previously possible,” Beck continued. “I’ve shared that data with other assets. I can lead them all into the fight. We are very focused on getting value for money and we can do a lot more by blending our assets.

“This jet isn’t just about the weapons — it’s a game-changing capability. The Tornado GR.4 can't just stroll into a double digit SAM MEZ [Missile Engagement Zone]. In the F-35 I can generate a wormhole in the airspace and lead everyone through it. There isn’t another platform around that can do that. This isn’t all about height and supercruise speed — it’s the ability to not be seen,” added Beck.

United Kingdom F-35B Testing, Jamie Hunter, 27 October 2015


The wormhole comment makes me wonder about an offensive EW attack carried out by the F-35 to "open this wormhole." While the F-35 can thread its way through various SAM sites because the MEZ will be smaller for the F-35, how could it lead other 4th gen jets through the same SAM minefield? This only makes sense if it is also able to electronically attack / blind the SAMs / ground radars.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2018, 07:56
by stereospace
The wormhole comment makes me wonder about an offensive EW attack carried out by the F-35 to "open this wormhole." While the F-35 can thread its way through various SAM sites because the MEZ will be smaller for the F-35, how could it lead other 4th gen jets through the same SAM minefield? This only makes sense if it is also able to electronically attack / blind the SAMs / ground radars.


That made me perk up. I've never heard that before, and if your interpretation is true, that is a groundbreaking capability.

OTOH, if you position the wing aircraft in the F-35 shadow, that cone projected between the emitter radar and the F-35 then projected beyond it into space, that might create a wormhole zone as well. That would require precision flying, but it might work. That region would look like empty space to the radar.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2018, 08:43
by hornetfinn
steve2267 wrote:The wormhole comment makes me wonder about an offensive EW attack carried out by the F-35 to "open this wormhole." While the F-35 can thread its way through various SAM sites because the MEZ will be smaller for the F-35, how could it lead other 4th gen jets through the same SAM minefield? This only makes sense if it is also able to electronically attack / blind the SAMs / ground radars.


IMO, there are many reasons for this. First is that F-35 has far better SA of the overall situation, where the threat radars and other threat systems are and what they are doing. This allows F-35 to select the best route for 4th gens to follow and avoid the most threatening areas. Second is the VLO stealth capability which allows F-35 to go close to threat systems without being in danger itself. This allows F-35 to position itself best for the third point which is EA/EW capability. F-35 can actually do stand-in jamming which means it's near the threat radar and protected 4th gens are further away from it. Because of this and high gain jamming, it can use very little jamming power to protect the 4th gens effectively while enemy might never know they were being jammed. Of course this likely really works well only against high-frequency radars, but that's pretty much all is needed. Pretty much every potential threat system uses such radar for target tracking and engagement at least. Low frequency radars would be small in numbers and F-35 would know where they were and could avoid them.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2018, 10:35
by Dragon029
steve2267 wrote:The wormhole comment makes me wonder about an offensive EW attack carried out by the F-35 to "open this wormhole." While the F-35 can thread its way through various SAM sites because the MEZ will be smaller for the F-35, how could it lead other 4th gen jets through the same SAM minefield? This only makes sense if it is also able to electronically attack / blind the SAMs / ground radars.


While the F-35 could potentially be limited in how it can open wormholes for 4th gens through SAM minefields (simply due to the use of non-X band radars), it was able to make friendly F-16s completely invisible (through jamming) to OPFOR F-16s in this exercise:

www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=26975

'The initial scenario was that our two F-35s would escort a four-ship of F-16s across a notional border and protect them against another eight-ship of F-16s simulating a modern adversary. A relatively inexperienced flight leader was in charge of the F-16s on our side and Lt Col Joost 'Niki' Luijsterburg, the Tucson detachment commander, was responsible for the adversaries. Up to this point, we had only practised these scenarios in the simulators and while we had a decent game-plan, we were all anxious to see how the F-35 would perform in real life. We figured that the F-35's stealth would keep us out of harm's way for most of the fight, but that we also need to protect the friendly F-16s, maximise the lethality of their missiles and get them to the target. To make this happen, we planned to initially use electronic attack against the adversary F-16s, see if we could avoid having them detect friendly fighters and datalink the location of the hostile aircraft to our F-16s. This way we could use the F-16s on our side to shoot down the initial wave of enemy fighters and keep our own missiles available once the 'Blue Air' F-16s had to focus on their target attack. The plan worked flawlessly.

'In the debrief 'Niki' told us it was one of the most memorable sorties he had ever flown. Having previously worked in the F-35 program office he was elated to find out how effective the F-35 was, but at the same time he was frustrated by not getting a single shot off the rail against us, while getting killed multiple times. After that sortie it really hit us that the F-35 was going to make a big difference in how we operate fighters and other assets in the Royal Netherlands Air Force'.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2018, 19:13
by wrightwing
hornetfinn wrote:
steve2267 wrote:The wormhole comment makes me wonder about an offensive EW attack carried out by the F-35 to "open this wormhole." While the F-35 can thread its way through various SAM sites because the MEZ will be smaller for the F-35, how could it lead other 4th gen jets through the same SAM minefield? This only makes sense if it is also able to electronically attack / blind the SAMs / ground radars.


IMO, there are many reasons for this. First is that F-35 has far better SA of the overall situation, where the threat radars and other threat systems are and what they are doing. This allows F-35 to select the best route for 4th gens to follow and avoid the most threatening areas. Second is the VLO stealth capability which allows F-35 to go close to threat systems without being in danger itself. This allows F-35 to position itself best for the third point which is EA/EW capability. F-35 can actually do stand-in jamming which means it's near the threat radar and protected 4th gens are further away from it. Because of this and high gain jamming, it can use very little jamming power to protect the 4th gens effectively while enemy might never know they were being jammed. Of course this likely really works well only against high-frequency radars, but that's pretty much all is needed. Pretty much every potential threat system uses such radar for target tracking and engagement at least. Low frequency radars would be small in numbers and F-35 would know where they were and could avoid them.

The F-35 can jam other frequencies than just X band, though that is certainly the most meaningful.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 06 Jul 2018, 09:38
by hornetfinn
Could not find this anywhere in the forum (probably because it's in French mostly), so this might be new here:
https://www.thomas-legrain-conseil.com/ ... -35-36.pdf

From page 62 onwards there is interview with USAF Colonel Pete “Coach” Fesler about the Atlantic Trident 2017 exercise:

Performing at a high level is one thing, altering the playing field is another. The 5th Gen aircraft has done that very thing, altering the classic air to air engagement in a fundamental way. Fesler noted, “the classic approach of shooting ones missiles and turning before the adversary can get a shot is predicated on the fact that the adversary sees you. In the 4th gen world that is the case. Ideally the pilot would like to be able to shoot, let their missile do the work and get away before the adversary can get a missile off. In the F-22 and F-35 world, the adversary doesn’t necessarily know where you are coming from. The 5th Gen pilot might shoot a missile and monitor to make sure it is effective. If the missile misses for any number of reasons, they are in good position for a follow-up shot. That is one of the fundamental differences between 4th Gen fighters and 5th Gen fighters. In general, in the 5th Gen world the adversary
doesn’t really know where you are coming from. They may have a general idea but not a lot of specifics. For 5th Gen pilots it’s a good place to be, to be able to roam around the battlefield faster than the speed of sound in an airplane that is largely undetectable all while your airplane is building a 3 dimensional picture of everything within a couple hundred miles of you.’’


This is interesting as it likely has pretty dramatic effect on air combat.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2018, 00:19
by lrrpf52
Mo: The F-16 and F/A-18 are extremely capable platforms and they do the swing role /multi role mission very well.

However, they are going to struggle vs Anti-Access/Area Denial (A2/AD) or IADS, and in those cases they will be on a dedicated mission. We do have a lot more flexibility to flip flop missions, and we do it a lot in training. We will escort a package on a strike mission and then we will break off do some A2G, or suppression of enemy air defenses (SEAD), perhaps some Combat Air Patrol (CAP) or dynamic targeting in the target area – then we’ll rejoin the package and come out with everybody.

Especially along with the F-22, we’ll open the door, wait while everyone else comes in and completes their mission, then come out with the package and close the door behind us.

We do some different things.

As Marines we are on call for a number of different missions, close air support (CAS) etc. that we could not have done in one airplane.

https://sldinfo.com/2016/12/the-moment- ... aordinary/

This has been quoted before, but brings up something in the vein of this thread.

What systems used to be used for "opening the door" and escorting strike packages?

We're talking Sparkvark, Prowler, and Growler mission profiles.

So you have a system that can do effectively most of what an F-22A does for air dominance with some limitations only in speed, service ceiling, and internal AAM load, but with much better sensors and next generation IR spectrum Search and Track.

Can pivot off the Electronic Support mission for opening up A2/AD and do whatever is needed, whether it be interdiction/strike, air dominance via CAP, SEAD, flexible attack on targets of opportunity, then re-join a 4th Gen strike package and provide Electronic Support escort on the way out.

This is freaking crazy. I've been reading about this, but each day, it feels like a new level of practical capability sets in again that further solidifies how much of a game-changer this really is.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2018, 07:37
by mk82
lrrpf52 wrote:
Mo: The F-16 and F/A-18 are extremely capable platforms and they do the swing role /multi role mission very well.

However, they are going to struggle vs Anti-Access/Area Denial (A2/AD) or IADS, and in those cases they will be on a dedicated mission. We do have a lot more flexibility to flip flop missions, and we do it a lot in training. We will escort a package on a strike mission and then we will break off do some A2G, or suppression of enemy air defenses (SEAD), perhaps some Combat Air Patrol (CAP) or dynamic targeting in the target area – then we’ll rejoin the package and come out with everybody.

Especially along with the F-22, we’ll open the door, wait while everyone else comes in and completes their mission, then come out with the package and close the door behind us.

We do some different things.

As Marines we are on call for a number of different missions, close air support (CAS) etc. that we could not have done in one airplane.

https://sldinfo.com/2016/12/the-moment- ... aordinary/

This has been quoted before, but brings up something in the vein of this thread.

What systems used to be used for "opening the door" and escorting strike packages?

We're talking Sparkvark, Prowler, and Growler mission profiles.

So you have a system that can do effectively most of what an F-22A does for air dominance with some limitations only in speed, service ceiling, and internal AAM load, but with much better sensors and next generation IR spectrum Search and Track.

Can pivot off the Electronic Support mission for opening up A2/AD and do whatever is needed, whether it be interdiction/strike, air dominance via CAP, SEAD, flexible attack on targets of opportunity, then re-join a 4th Gen strike package and provide Electronic Support escort on the way out.

This is freaking crazy. I've been reading about this, but each day, it feels like a new level of practical capability sets in again that further solidifies how much of a game-changer this really is.


The F35 is truly an onmirole fighter to the Nth degree. I like to think of the F35 as a Renaissance aircraft.....it does almost everything well. The F35’s information superiority plays a large part in enabling its remarkable onmirole capabilities.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2018, 09:29
by Dragon029
From Reddit; a USAF GCI (Sandy88) talking with some other guys about working with different jets: https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comment ... ets_super/

fringeaggressor wrote:It's also substantially draggier than the A/C, mitigating most of the raw effectiveness of that additional fuel in a dash. You can hang bags, but then you're just compounding the problem.

Everybody's got a gas problem in BVR. Only player who doesn't is the Raptor.

Sandy88 wrote:Lol I wish that last part were true. Bolts are much better by comparison.

Scotty1992 wrote:What is a Bolt? What aircraft has the best legs in your experience?

Sandy88 wrote:Bolt is what we've been dubbing the F-35, I know the USAF Weapons School has been rolling with Puma but I'm not sold. Anyway, if you want longevity get you a global hawk or MQ-9 those bad boys can stick around for 24 hours but if your strictly talking air-to-air fast movers the Bolt takes it by a mile.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2018, 10:12
by spazsinbad
'BOLT' is not gunna FLY NAVY - too much like the BOLTER BOLTER BOLTER LSO call when aircraft bolters (misses wires).

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 05:29
by Dragon029
More:
Scotty1992 wrote:Cheers. How do you guys find the capabilities of the F-35?

Sandy88 wrote:If I could have them on every mission I would. Absolute powerhouse with the only limiting factor being missiles.


delta9991 wrote:I figured the -35 would would be great with gas (love your nickname for it btw), but I figured the Raptor wouldn’t be as constrained as legacy platforms for the same reasons. Are the Raptors much better than legacy jets on endurance and the -35 even better or are the Raptors more or less like the legacy platforms.

Sandy88 wrote:On the open source side the Raptor can cover great distances quickly due to its Super Cruise many people confuse this with a long on-station time when in reality its really closer to an F-15C unless they put bags on the jet but then you lose all the advantages of being "stealthy". I was blown away by the Bolts loiter times when I first worked with them it really is an amazing jet. I'm pretty sure the -35 will end up being called the Puma my unit just uses Bolt for now.

delta9991 wrote:F-15C with or without bags endurance? Still not too shabby either way. Great information, thank you for your time and service!

Sandy88 wrote:Without.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 06:16
by spazsinbad
:devil: My FAVE F-35 FITER PILOTE QUOTE EVA:


Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 07:01
by SpudmanWP

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 13:59
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Dragon, I looked over a bit of that thread and noticed some asked Sandy88 if they were you.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 14:12
by Dragon029
He wasn't; the "u/dragon029" is the user Scotty1992 tagging me in a comment (put a "u/" before any username and that person gets notified that they were mentioned; Reddit accounts have urls of reddit.com/u/username) and essentially letting me know that the thread was something I might be interested in reading.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2018, 16:29
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Okay, got it. I don't do Reddit so I don;t know those details.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 01:38
by spazsinbad
Just bekoz today & Oz: https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/strik ... e-concerns
"...the F-35, which Chief of Air Force, Air Marshal Leo Davies is quoted as saying will "replace nothing, because they change everything"...."

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 19:13
by lrrpf52
Senior Red Air pilot perspective:

“We took off out of Madison (to join the fight),” said Lt. Col. Bart Van Roo, the commander of the Wisconsin Air National Guard’s 176th FS, which has F-16 Fighting Falcons. “We went to our simulated airfield out in the far part of the airspace. As the two ship from the northern half of the airspace we turned hot, drove for about 30 seconds and we were dead, just like that. We never even saw (the F-35A).”

Van Roo has been flying the F-16 since 2001 and as red air during Northern Lightning for 13 years. Red air is a formation of aircraft acting as the enemy for air-to-air tactics training.

“For us, as a capable fourth-generation fighter, we are used to being able to see and counter most adversaries that we have out there when we are playing red air,” Van Roo said. “Versus the F-35, it’s completely different. The most difficult thing is we just can’t see them like they can see us. It can feel like you are out there with a blindfold on trying to find someone in a huge space.

“We have been reliant on visual pickups of the aircraft only, which is extremely difficult to do, and at those ranges we are already dead before we could shoot back.”


https://www.hill.af.mil/News/Article-Di ... legacy-ai/

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 19:27
by lrrpf52
Eglin AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. (AFNS) -- Years ago, Lt. Col. Brad Bashore flew against the F-22 Raptor as an F-15E Strike Eagle pilot. Now, as an F-35A Lightning II pilot at this year’s exercise Northern Lightning, it was his turn to deliver fire from the clouds.

“It’s not a fair fight, and that’s exactly what we want for our adversaries,” said Bashore, the 58th Fighter Squadron commander. “To be on the offensive side this time and getting a chance to employ (those capabilities), I couldn’t ask for anything better. It’s like fighting somebody with their hands tied behind their back.

Bashore and his wingmen at the 58th FS, which belongs to the 33rd Fighter Wing, have been employing the capabilities of the F-35A, scoring as many as 27 “kills” in a single sortie at Northern Lightning, a large force exercise where fifth- and fourth-generation aircraft engage in a contested, degraded environment.

“I remember the first time I flew against (fifth-generation aircraft),” Bashore said. “It’s a change in mindset because you can’t target anything on your radar because it’s not there, and by the time you do potentially find something, it’s too late and they have already shot you.

“It’s frustrating, but at the same time understanding that it’s our asset is invigorating and gives you a lot of hope for the future as far as how successful this platform is going to be.”

While sharing many similarities with the F-22, the F-35A’s main advantage is its robust suite of sensors that give it the ability to process and share information with other players in the battlespace. These capabilities make the F-35A more lethal and survivable than any legacy aircraft, and eliminate any safe space for the enemy to hide.


https://www.hill.af.mil/News/Article-Di ... legacy-ai/

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 20:43
by playloud
lrrpf52 wrote:
...scoring as many as 27 “kills” in a single sortie

:wtf:

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 21:13
by lrrpf52
playloud wrote:
lrrpf52 wrote:
...scoring as many as 27 “kills” in a single sortie

:wtf:

Bashore and his wingmen at the 58th FS, which belongs to the 33rd Fighter Wing, have been employing the capabilities of the F-35A, scoring as many as 27 “kills” in a single sortie at Northern Lightning


Sortie 1

Bashore's kills = x
Wingman 1 kills = y
Wingman 2 Kills = z
Wingman 4 kills = a

a + x + y + z = 27

Average kills per wingman in a 4-ship (assuming a 4-ship) is 27/4 = 6.75 kills per F-35.

What's that you say? The USAF F-35A only can carry 4 AAMs internally in Blocks 3i and 3F.

Yes, but it can also carry 2 x AIM-9X and still remain very stealthy, and it has this other thing most people like to ignore that makes big boom boom in other airplanes, especially with a VLO approach at angles and energy advantage.

It has 181 rounds for that weapon, with programmable bursts. 180/9 = 20 rounds of High Explosive Incendiary ammunition per burst, which has a habit of shredding manned targets from the Sukhoi and Mikoyan manned target design bureaus.

Even with only 3 x 60rd bursts allocated per wingman in a 4-ship, assuming an extremely high pk for guns and AIM-120C7/D within NEZ, that gives you 7 kills per bird in a 4-ship.

Assuming 4 x 45rd bursts, that gives you 8 kills maximum. We're not talking about BFM WVR turning fight gun kills from the previous 4 generations either, but unfair extreme energy advantage approaches from off-axis with super-computed solutions for strafe passes, linked with the AESA and EOTS/DAS, against a non-maneuvering target.

The NEZ region is where I think 5th Gen really makes life miserable for any threat air, not just the BVR realm where a lot of people have been assuming F-22 and F-35 will lean to always. NEZ also includes GAU-22/A.

That's assuming only a 4-ship for this scenario. We don't know how many wingmen he had, so even if it were 4 AIM-120 internal only per bird, the 27 kills still could be done with AMRAAM and guns.

27 kills for a single sortie is pushing or rivaling Israeli AF 1982 vs Syrians, and I doubt a single F-15A/C or F-16A 4-ship ever got that many in its history. Those 2 days in 1982 would be the highest saturation kills per sortie in the 4th Generation that I know of, with layers of F-15s and F-16s, with the Eagles at higher altitude vectored by E-2C for side aspect approaches, and F-16As flying lower/mid Flight Levels for those who squirted down in altitude to attempt to evade F-15s.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 21:51
by playloud
Unless my definition is wrong, each plane is its own sortie. A four-ship would be 4 sorties. But the part you highlighted shows they did indeed include the wingmen. They shouldn't have said a single sortie though.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 22:20
by spazsinbad
Just to add another equation changer... somewhere I've seen reference to a FIVE aircraft formation (perhaps Oz?)….

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 23:15
by lrrpf52
playloud wrote:Unless my definition is wrong, each plane is its own sortie. A four-ship would be 4 sorties. But the part you highlighted shows they did indeed include the wingmen. They shouldn't have said a single sortie though.

You're right about the definition of a sortie in military aviation.

It would have been accurate for them to say "within the duration of his sortie", but that wouldn't print well for that particular release.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 23:24
by spazsinbad
It is just bad communication, nothing new in that at all. Always operational details are obscure and they will get obscurer.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 23:55
by vilters
If I was going to fly the F-35 it would sound something like this : "Skinny is gonna fly fatty". LOL.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 00:11
by quicksilver
lrrpf52 wrote:
playloud wrote:Unless my definition is wrong, each plane is its own sortie. A four-ship would be 4 sorties. But the part you highlighted shows they did indeed include the wingmen. They shouldn't have said a single sortie though.

You're right about the definition of a sortie in military aviation.

It would have been accurate for them to say "within the duration of his sortie", but that wouldn't print well for that particular release.


"It would have been accurate for them to say..." [my emphasis added]. It wasn't 'them' who said it; it was the author of the article.

Re: Favorite F-35 Quotes

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 02:39
by spazsinbad
spazsinbad wrote:Just to add another equation changer... somewhere I've seen reference to a FIVE aircraft formation (perhaps Oz?)….

Have not found the 'five F-35 formation' so far however have found many references to the four aircraft variety. What I recall for the FIVE is that the leader was in the centre of the form with four others at points of the compass heading N.
"...The F-35 is designed to fly in groups of four and they are all supposed to share their data with each other. The military doesn’t like to talk about it, but the planes do not fly in a tight formation. It’s more like a diamond spread out over dozens or hundreds of miles. [Gen. Bogdan] … viewtopic.php?f=61&t=26629&p=287971&hilit=diamond+formation#p287971