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Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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hythelday

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Unread post03 May 2017, 19:53

I am not sure we can claim that F-35 can reliably track F-22 at BVR ranges; frontal RCS claim is also based on educated guess, which while being educated, is still a guess.

I am not saying this because I disagree, I am saying this because those will be immediately brought up by opponents should anyone choose to use this image in a debate. IMO, in order to be convincing, one must avoid such questionable arguments in the first place.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post03 May 2017, 20:22

Remember that EOTS can track well into the BVR realm (ie 10+ nmiles).
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Unread post03 May 2017, 20:27

hythelday wrote:I am not sure we can claim that F-35 can reliably track F-22 at BVR ranges; frontal RCS claim is also based on educated guess, which while being educated, is still a guess.

I am not saying this because I disagree, I am saying this because those will be immediately brought up by opponents should anyone choose to use this image in a debate. IMO, in order to be convincing, one must avoid such questionable arguments in the first place.

I didn't say it could track the F-22 with Radar, but if it can (and it has) jam the F-22 then it has as Azimuth and Elevation to shoot the EOTS. Threat library info will allow the computer to analyze the F-22s image and estimate range and heading. Time rate of change of A&E with that info will give alt and speed. Tracked. Alternatively, two F-35s with A&E info now have a point position in space. Tracked.

I also have little doubt that DAS will track a supercruising F-22 at ranges exceeding 10nm (WVR limit). The F-22 on the other hand has no way of tracking the F-35 if it's jammed.

Frontal RCS statement is based on what the Generals/ Program Managers say, not any of my guesses.

I hear you though, you have to be able to back up statements. I admit that a lot of my "tracking the F-22" is taking what is known about the total systems and inferring plausible, but classified, use cases. Nothing I stated there (other than the jamming) is confirmed but there is no reason it couldn't do those things based on what we do know.
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hythelday

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Unread post03 May 2017, 21:52

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I didn't say it could track the F-22 with Radar, but if it can (and it has) jam the F-22 then it has as Azimuth and Elevation to shoot the EOTS. Threat library info will allow the computer to analyze the F-22s image and estimate range and heading. Time rate of change of A&E with that info will give alt and speed. Tracked. Alternatively, two F-35s with A&E info now have a point position in space. Tracked.

I also have little doubt that DAS will track a supercruising F-22 at ranges exceeding 10nm (WVR limit). The F-22 on the other hand has no way of tracking the F-35 if it's jammed.


Well, there's additional complication with such phrasing also:

We both know that Raptor's EW suite can most likely generate targeting solution without the use of radar, especially with conjunction with other Raptors. Sure, DAS can probably give a warning that something is in the air which in turn allows F-35 to use EOTS in a fashion described above, however here again we'd go against our own arguments we used in "versus" threads saying adverse weather, narrow FOV and all aspect VLO greatly reduce 4th gen IRSTs' ability to track stealthy fighters.

Personally I'd go with something along the lines of "has largest inventory of sensors (eurocanards' EWs can't provide fire control, Raptor lacks IR systems) and methods (data fusion, other nodes on network) to discover and track airplanes with IR/EM signature reduction technologies".
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Unread post03 May 2017, 23:22

ooh, that phrasing is much better and less refutable.
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Unread post05 May 2017, 02:08

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/psyc ... ter-2017-5

An F-35 pilot explains how the stealth fighter can have a crushing psychological effect on the enemy
Alex Lockie
May 5, 2017

Retired US Marine Corps Maj. Dan Flatley will never forget the crushing feeling of helplessness he felt the first time he faced a stealth jet while he was flying in an F/A-18.

“I remember indelibly the moment in which the AWAC (airborne early warning and control plane) called out to me that there was a Raptor [an F-22 stealth fighter] in front of me at very close range that made me uncomfortable,” Flatley told Business Insider in a phone interview.

“I had no way of targeting him, no way of defending myself.”

Despite years of training to stay focused and level headed under the extreme pressures of air-to-air combat, a sense of dread set in.

Before even seeing the F-22, Flatley had already surrendered his composure, and therefore his ability to effectively fight back.

Years later, Flatley would come to pilot the F-35 and even design the curriculum for training pilots in the fifth-generation fighter, where he would tap into the crushing psychological effect of fighting a plane you can’t find.

While the F-35 represents the most expensive weapons system of all time, and is a frequent target of government critics who chastise the program for going over budget and schedule, Flatly says the real strength of stealth fighters doesn’t show up in any budget.

“What the public doesn’t realise is how dominant the difference in information is,” said Flatley. While the F-35 performs similarly to legacy jets in some areas like speed, turning, and range, there’s a huge, ever-growing information gap between what the F-35 pilot sees and what an F-18 pilot sees.

The F-35 features six cameras stationed around the jet and a helmet display that allows pilots to literally look through the jet as if it wasn’t there. It features the only infrared radar [what?] on a US fighter since the F-14, and uses unprecedented sensor-fusion capabilities to paint an incredibly vivid picture of its surroundings for miles out.

On top of all that, it’s stealth. So while the F-35 sees everything, it’s seen by almost no one.

Legacy jets, with the help of AWACs “may have a general idea that there’s an F-35 out there, but they don’t know exactly where we are,” said Flatley.

The distinct information disadvantage causes pilots to get tunnel vision, according to Flatley.

“Everything they see becomes the F-35 out there,” said Flatley. “Every radar hit, every communication is about the stealth jet. They want to illuminate or eliminate a threat they can’t handle.”


The fear and paranoia caused by the presence of stealth jets in a battle has a widespread effect on adversaries that “includes extremely capable legacy jets and certainly includes everything available to adversaries,” said Flatley of updated F-16s, F-15s, and even enemy air defences like Russia’s S-400.

Even extremely capable operators fall prey to the F-35’s psychological advantage. “It has nothing to do with their skill or technology. They’re at such a technological disadvantage,” said Flatley. “I’ve seen guys in F-18s turn directly in front of me and show me their tails cause they have no idea I’m there.”

In the end, “It aggregates to a completely inept response to what we’re doing in the air,” said Flatley. “People are so hellbent on shooting down the stealth fighter that they invariably make mistakes that I can exploit.”
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Unread post05 May 2017, 02:37

Alien/Predator.
It's a horror movie.
Einstein got it backward: one cannot prevent a war without preparing for it.

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Unread post05 May 2017, 03:26

4Gen pilot - "What's all the fuss about.... WHOAAAA!!!
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"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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Unread post06 May 2017, 23:31

popcorn wrote:4Gen pilot - "What's all the fuss about.... WHOAAAA!!!

LOL!

We need a bigger boat.
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citanon

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Unread post18 May 2017, 21:04

Apparently the F35As now has higher readiness rates than f-16s in Europe:

http://breakingdefense.com/2017/05/f-35 ... in-europe/
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Unread post18 May 2017, 23:49

citanon wrote:Apparently the F35As now has higher readiness rates than f-16s in Europe:

http://breakingdefense.com/2017/05/f-35 ... in-europe/

Don Baccon, still #%£¥ink that "useless preproduction" nonsense.
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Unread post19 May 2017, 09:40

What is up with the Anti F-35 community?
19 May 2017 Solomon

"...What is up with the anti F-35 community?

Most talk sh*t in private but are scared to step up? Amazing! What was that? You ask why don't I do it? Easy! Because I know generalities but I'm not an aviation guy. I don't know the in's and out's well enough to make the case.

If you want to know why the anti F-35 people might lose this fight......This is why. The geeks that know this sh*t are ****** cowards."

Source: http://www.snafu-solomon.com/2017/05/wh ... unity.html
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post19 May 2017, 13:28

Poor old Sol.... unable to dragoon the help he needs on a topic he makes quite clear he hasn't the slightest notion about.

Like a toddler telling his scientist father why he is wrong.
Cute in a way.
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Unread post03 Jun 2017, 01:50

Another great post from Morten "Dolby" Hanche, everyone's favourite Norwegian F-35 pilot:

I'll be a bit more precise: With full war equipment, my experience with F-35A is that

It's easier to fly than F-16.
It's faster than F-16.
It has a longer range than F-16.
It flies higher than F-16.
It is more maneuverable than F-16.
It finds opponents on a longer distance (than F-16 would have done).
Opponents discover F-35 later than an F-16 would be found.
And it looks tougher!


I want to tell you about another impression from my first flight in F-35, and that's the F-35 is a fast machine. F-35 keeps effortlessly high speed. Unlike the F-16, this also applies to weapons loads. ... without thinking [an unattentive pilot] ends in supersonic speed!


F-16 on the fly show is manoeuvrable and impressive, but F-16 with war equipment is "a mess". The F-35 on its side is maneuverable and fast also with war equipment.


original here: http://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampfl ... ft-rollen/
Just chuck it into Google Translate, seems to translate well enough.
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