F-35 preferred by pilots in WVR over 4th Gens, outturns A-10

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armedupdate

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Unread post04 Aug 2016, 22:56

David Axe be like this now. :x :shock: :(
Pilots say F-35 beats out A-10 in new report

By JACQUELINE KLIMAS (@JACQKLIMAS) • 8/4/16 4:32 PM
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More than 30 F-35 pilots said the joint strike fighter outperformed the A-10 in every maneuverability category, according to a report released Thursday afternoon.

The Heritage Foundation report surveyed 31 F-35 pilots about how the plane, built by Lockheed Martin, compares to previous fighter jets like the F-15E and F-16C. While the fifth-generation joint strike fighter lagged behind some aircraft in its ability to turn efficiently, it outperformed the other jets in categories like responsiveness at slow speeds and the ability to recover air speed.

Champions of the A-10 Warthog on Capitol Hill have argued that the aircraft, which is currently conducting operations against the Islamic State, is the best for close air support.

"I am concerned that this airplane is replacing all of our legacy fighters — the whole jack of all trades, master of none," said Rep. Martha McSally, R-Ariz., during a hearing last year.

Subscribe today to get intelligence and analysis on defense and national security issues in your Inbox each weekday morning from veteran journalists Jamie McIntyre and Jacqueline Klimas.


While the Heritage report did not measure the F-35's close air support ability, the pilots interviewed for the report said the F-35 outranked the A-10 in every category of maneuverability from responsiveness at slow speeds to ability to regain speed after decelerating.

Even with some G-force limitations while the F-35 undergoes more development and testing, one pilot said that the joint strike fighter "exceeded pilot expectations." Once those restrictions are lifted, however, that same pilot said it will be "eye watering."


Pilots also selected the F-35 over other jets 100 percent of the time when they were required to spot a threat outside of their visual range, and more than 80 percent of the time in dogfighting, or the air maneuvering warfare that critics have said the F-35 fails at.

The F-35 has taken a beating on Capitol Hill from lawmakers who argue that the jet is over budget, behind schedule and not capable enough at some requirements. Officials at the Pentagon have repeatedly faced questions during hearings on several problems with the high-profile, high-cost program, including an ejection seat issue that could hurt or kill smaller pilots and a $400,000 helmet that didn't work properly.

Despite that, the report, from analyst and former Thunderbird commander John Venable, urged the Air Force to purchase the full planned buy of 1,763 F-35As, which the service just announced was combat-ready this week.



Todd Harrison, an analyst with the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said that the declaration of initial operating capability is a good sign that problems are behind the program.

"I think this is a good signal that it is past a lot of its problems, its technological challenges. I'm sure there'll still be some kinks that come up in the system in the coming years, but for the most part, I think this means that the program has stabilized, they're on a good trajectory, most of the potential for major cost overruns and technological challenges are now behind us," Harrison said at a breakfast event earlier this week. "It's had a lot, it's been through a lot, it's been a difficult program but I think we're getting to the point that most of that is going to be behind us now, I think that's really what the IOC means for that program."

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/pilot ... le/2598652
Last edited by armedupdate on 04 Aug 2016, 23:11, edited 2 times in total.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post04 Aug 2016, 23:00

Given the recent IOC decision and it's included fuel tank mods, the G restrictions are no longer in place.

Welcome to "Eye Watering" :)
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Unread post04 Aug 2016, 23:10

SpudmanWP wrote:Given the recent IOC decision and it's included fuel tank mods, the G restrictions are no longer in place.

I thought it won't be 9 G till Block 3F?
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Unread post04 Aug 2016, 23:16

Sorry for the confusion.

I meant that restrictions, over and above what the software itself would allow, were lifted.

While Block 2B allowed 7Gs in teh F-35A, the fuel problem imposed an artificial 3~ish G limit.

Now that 3i is in place (with the associated fuel issues fixed), the F-35A can get back to 7Gs.

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bojack_horseman

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Unread post04 Aug 2016, 23:30

Shouldn't it go without saying that the F-35 is more maneuverable than the A-10?

I mean, isn't every combat aircraft more maneuverable than it?
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Unread post04 Aug 2016, 23:36

You would be surprised how maneuverable the A-10 is.
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Unread post05 Aug 2016, 00:41

I cant get to their page for some reason. Anyone got the link to the Heritage piece?
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energo

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Unread post05 Aug 2016, 01:20

quicksilver wrote:I cant get to their page for some reason. Anyone got the link to the Heritage piece?


Here:
http://www.heritage.org/research/report ... nt-process
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popcorn

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Unread post05 Aug 2016, 01:52

Given a choice of jets for dogfighting, 80% chose the F-35. Mighty Raptor not getting enough love? :D
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Unread post05 Aug 2016, 02:02

popcorn wrote:Given a choice of jets for dogfighting, 80% chose the F-35. Mighty Raptor not getting enough love? :D

Well the F-22 lacks DAS and HMD.
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Unread post05 Aug 2016, 03:09

SpudmanWP wrote:You would be surprised how maneuverable the A-10 is.


Maybe...in a dive.
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Unread post05 Aug 2016, 03:16

"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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Unread post05 Aug 2016, 07:45

A-10 is very maneuverable at slow speeds at low altitude delivering air-to-ground ordnance where it was originally designed to operate. Of course nobody is really flying any jet low and slow in real combat if they can avoid it since it means high risk of getting shot down even against poorly equipped enemy.
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Unread post05 Aug 2016, 09:26

So it seems like even with current limitations F-35A is very close to F-15C and F-16C in turning abilities and much better at slow speeds... I find it interesting that it's said to have better ability to recover airspeed than F-16C and much better than F-15E but less so compared to F-15C. It seems like this explains it:

“Combat configuration” refers to an aircraft with stores that remain after pilots drop or jettison everything they can drop or jettison before going to a merge. For the F-16, this would leave the Harm Targeting Pod (HTS), IR Targeting Pod, ECM pod, MAUs, rails, and air-to-air missiles; for the F-15C, the fuel tank racks; for the F-15E, the Targeting Pod, MAUs, rails, and air-to-air missiles; for the A-10, the IR Targeting Pod, ECM pod, and enough racks and rails from which to hang a city’s worth of meat.


Was the comparison against F-15C really without any air-to-air missiles?

[24] Combat configuration for the F-35A: 13,000 pounds of fuel to replicate retaining internal munitions and roughly half internal fuel. The F-35A will have no external stores during any anti-access, high-threat environment.


So basically F-35A capable of fully accomplishing air-to-ground mission with actual weapons is preferred in even close range air-to-air combat to F-15C, F-16C and F-15E...

Very interesting that F-35A was considered much better at stack/scissors performance than all of the others. Sounds like "Dolby" Hanche was very correct in his assessment for F-35A maneuverability. I'm not entirely sure I understand this point correctly. I take it means combat performance doing flat and/or rolling scissors maneuvers. What does the "stack" part mean in this context or is it just synonym for scissors?

I find it amazing that F-35A was preferred overwhelmingly even in vertical fight over all the fighters, including F-15C. Similarly Butterfly setups should be pretty good for F-15C and F-16C and even there most pilots wanted F-35A with current limitations..
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Unread post05 Aug 2016, 11:09

popcorn wrote:Given a choice of jets for dogfighting, 80% chose the F-35. Mighty Raptor not getting enough love? :D


I don't think the Raptor was a choice though
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