F-35 preferred by pilots in WVR over 4th Gens, outturns A-10

[SpudmanWP]

I put the DefenseNews vid on Youtube

[spazsinbad]

Thanks for that 'SWP'.

[popcorn]

Other (unrelated) Venable insights LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAXeovcFte8

[zero-one]

That's why I use the example of a cavalry saber vs an M-1 rifle.

1. You have to come to grips with the reality of a bullet in the head from 500 yards.

2. That said. If he runs out of ammo, and gives away his sniper nest, and makes a lot of noise ... and ... and ..

I agree with your points, they make sense to me
but there is just some problems that I have with the Bullet analogy when it comes to air combat
A high powered rifle round travels at around 5,000 knots leaving the barrel, trying to hit a man that can run at around 5km\hr

Now a missile is actually a bit slower and the target is much faster can pull 9Gs and has all sorts of Countermeasures.

Thats why I often use the analogy of Vietnam Ace Charles B. DeBellevue
He refers to the Gun as a knife but refers to the missile as a spear.

Now it doesn't refute your analogy, since an invisible man wielding a spear is a very hard target to beat. Think Predator movie. now if you happen to see the predator and get close, you'll find that he is still more than adept in winning that kind of fight.

[wrightwing]

That's why I use the example of a cavalry saber vs an M-1 rifle.

1. You have to come to grips with the reality of a bullet in the head from 500 yards.

2. That said. If he runs out of ammo, and gives away his sniper nest, and makes a lot of noise ... and ... and ..

I agree with your points, they make sense to me
but there is just some problems that I have with the Bullet analogy when it comes to air combat
A high powered rifle round travels at around 5,000 knots leaving the barrel, trying to hit a man that can run at around 5km\hr

Now a missile is actually a bit slower and the target is much faster can pull 9Gs and has all sorts of Countermeasures.

Thats why I often use the analogy of Vietnam Ace Charles B. DeBellevue
He refers to the Gun as a knife but refers to the missile as a spear.

Now it doesn't refute your analogy, since an invisible man wielding a spear is a very hard target to beat. Think Predator movie. now if you happen to see the predator and get close, you'll find that he is still more than adept in winning that kind of fight.

No rifle round is travelling at 5000kts. Missiles travel much faster than a 30-06 bullet.

[zerion]

Arguing about whether the F-35 can dogfight misses a really big point

DC — According to some reports, America's fifth-generation stealth aircraft doesn't excel at dogfighting...

"As a pilot, dogfighting is fun, but it doesn't get the job done," US Air Force Maj. Will "D-Rail" Andreotta, commander of the F-35A Lightning II Heritage Flight Team, told Business Insider.

"If I'm dogfighting I'm not bombing my target. I'm not getting my job done, and what I'm probably doing is wasting gas and wasting time."

"I have stealth, so I've fought against F-16s and I've never gotten into a dogfight yet. You can't fight what you can't see, and if F-16s can't see me then I'm never going to get into a dogfight with them."

What's more, Andreotta says, the US Air Force's F-16s and F-35s work well together.

"The F-16s, F-35s, F-22s, no matter what the aircraft, they all bring something to the fight, they're all different and they all are great compliments to each other. We just all have different capabilities that we can use to get the job done."

"The F-16s and fourth generation are really benefitting from all the information we are able to pull in and send to them," Andreotta said. "I think if you talk to any fourth-generation pilot that has flown with the F-35 they'll rave about the information they're getting from us, and we're not even at the point where we are sending out all the information."

"I can take information that I'm getting from the F-35 and push it out to other aircraft that don't have the capabilities that I have. That's huge. I would have killed for that when I was flying an F-16."

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-pil ... ing-2016-9

[count_to_10]

That's why I use the example of a cavalry saber vs an M-1 rifle.

1. You have to come to grips with the reality of a bullet in the head from 500 yards.

2. That said. If he runs out of ammo, and gives away his sniper nest, and makes a lot of noise ... and ... and ..

I agree with your points, they make sense to me
but there is just some problems that I have with the Bullet analogy when it comes to air combat
A high powered rifle round travels at around 5,000 knots leaving the barrel, trying to hit a man that can run at around 5km\hr

Now a missile is actually a bit slower and the target is much faster can pull 9Gs and has all sorts of Countermeasures.

Thats why I often use the analogy of Vietnam Ace Charles B. DeBellevue
He refers to the Gun as a knife but refers to the missile as a spear.

Now it doesn't refute your analogy, since an invisible man wielding a spear is a very hard target to beat. Think Predator movie. now if you happen to see the predator and get close, you'll find that he is still more than adept in winning that kind of fight.

No rifle round is travelling at 5000kts. Missiles travel much faster than a 30-06 bullet.

Rifle rounds leave the muzzle at less than 1 km/s, or about 2000 mph. A missile is probably traveling about that fast at intercept, though there has to be a lot of variance. When you start talking about speed of target, then you have to consider that the missile is guided, and your analogy gets messy.

At any rate, a modern missile is more like a bow relative to the Vulcan cannon's knife. You are always going to be able to tell where a spear is coming from, but you might not know where an arrow originated. Also, the range of a bow is probably around a hundred times the range of a knife, while a spear has maybe three or four times the knife's range.

[tincansailor]

At any rate, a modern missile is more like a bow relative to the Vulcan cannon's knife. You are always going to be able to tell where a spear is coming from, but you might not know where an arrow originated. Also, the range of a bow is probably around a hundred times the range of a knife, while a spear has maybe three or four times the knife's range.[/quote]

Analogies are always imperfect. The difference between a spear and a knife is a spear keeps you out of knife range. To use a knife you have to get past a spear, and into knife range. This is why the advantage usually went to the combatant with the longer weapon. To get into gun range you have to get past missile range first. As for a Bow you can see a arrow in flight so you will generally know where a Bowman is. It's not clear, at least to me if you would know where a missile came from. I guess it would depend on the sophistication of you sensors, and or RWR system, and how stealthy the missile is.

[energo]

the pedal turns are incredible and deliver a constant 28 degrees/second.

28 !?

Anyone with more thoughts on this one? How about other jets for comparison? No envelope details provided, and how to interpret "constant".. Asked one of our F-35 pilots and without going into specifics, he absolutely agreed with the instructor pilot's view that the jet will be "eye watering" when the restrictions are lifted.

[sferrin]

the pedal turns are incredible and deliver a constant 28 degrees/second.

28 !?

Anyone with more thoughts on this one? How about other jets for comparison? No envelope details provided, and how to interpret "constant".. Asked one of our F-35 pilots and without going into specifics, he absolutely agreed with the instructor pilot's view that the jet will be "eye watering" when the restrictions are lifted.

"Pedal turn". That means when it's at low speed and using the rudder to rotate in the yaw direction. The flight path itself isn't changing at 28 degrees/sec.

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

IIRC during recovery testing with the limiters off they hit a controlled 60 degrees per second and the plane was able to arrest that immediately. This plane has tons of yaw control.

[energo]

Anyone with more thoughts on this one? How about other jets for comparison? No envelope details provided, and how to interpret "constant".. Asked one of our F-35 pilots and without going into specifics, he absolutely agreed with the instructor pilot's view that the jet will be "eye watering" when the restrictions are lifted.

"Pedal turn". That means when it's at low speed and using the rudder to rotate in the yaw direction. The flight path itself isn't changing at 28 degrees/sec.

Would be interesting to hear some first hand experiences with other jets. I've done a few such turns in the cockpit demonstrator when testing the high AoA capabilities. IIRC I was wings level at medium altitude, throttled back, pulled on the stick and went trough 30-40-50 degrees AoA. As I recall, at well below stalling speed the nose started to drift, but I could easily point from side to side or engage a turn. Turning was steady and seemed fairly brisk, but of course I have very little references to compare it with. Though I remember a Viper pilot standing next to me and he was certainly impressed with what he saw.

[Gums]

Salute!

Anyone who has seen a Raptor demo will see what is called the "pedal turn".

The sucker "hangs" initially with nose very high, then does a slow sort of tail slide and winds up almost nose level. Next move is rotating the nose to desired heading, then lowering nose and scooting away. Very impressive.

One maneuver in the original Viper demo was similar but at much lower AoA and pitch attitude was not initially apparent. So get real slow ( like after a double Immelmann, heh heh) and start back down holding limiter AoA with FPM st down, then full roll cmd. First impression from the viewers was a spin. After a few rotations stop the roll, ease off the back stick, light the burner and then zoom over the showline and do a 9 gee turn followed by a loop!!!! Gotta face it, folks, that thing was very impressive back in 1979.

Gums sends...

[quicksilver]

Easily done in Hornet, SH and Raptor. Wouldn't venture a guess as to rates, but typically very effective for nose-hi>lo reversals out of the vertical and for pointing in nose-low spiraling scissors.

[quicksilver]

Salute!

Anyone who has seen a Raptor demo will see what is called the "pedal turn".

The sucker "hangs" initially with nose very high, then does a slow sort of tail slide and winds up almost nose level. Next move is rotating the nose to desired heading, then lowering nose and scooting away. Very impressive.

One maneuver in the original Viper demo was similar but at much lower AoA and pitch attitude was not initially apparent. So get real slow ( like after a double Immelmann, heh heh) and start back down holding limiter AoA with FPM st down, then full roll cmd. First impression from the viewers was a spin. After a few rotations stop the roll, ease off the back stick, light the burner and then zoom over the showline and do a 9 gee turn followed by a loop!!!! Gotta face it, folks, that thing was very impressive back in 1979.

Gums sends...

x2