EOTS range

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armedupdate

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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 05:05

I keep hearing the EOTS right now is outdated, but I hear it can still ID targets out to 40 nm. Can someone provide me with the source of the 40nm?
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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 06:21

Exact info is classified but here is what a purposefully degraded image looks like from the previous generation of Sniper XP pods at 36nm.

Btw, it was just announced today that EOTS is getting a significant upgrade in Block 4.

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Dragon029

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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 06:34

There's also this footage of the EOTS itself which shows pretty high clarity imagery from 49 nautical miles (90.7km) away:



Edit: Specifically; this part here is taken from a slant range of 49.1 nautical miles:

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geforcerfx

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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 07:32

Another nice aspect of the EOTS and F-35 combo is the F-35 having the displays with enough resolution and clarity to handle the EOTS's picture and future upgrades as well. I remember reading here guys talking about not being able to see targets on the screens in there 4th gen planes, but watching back on tv later could see them clear as day.
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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 08:02

It's pretty clear from looking EOTS pictures and videos, that it has very high performance MWIR sensor. It definitely has megapixel (at least 1024x1024 resolution) sensor and very good sensitivity. Magnification capabilties (Field of Views) are unknown, but Sniper XR pod has 1x1 degree narrow FoV and 4x4 degree wide FoV. Most targeting pods have similar FoVs and possibly also much wider FoVs for wide area coverage. IRSTs generally have much wider FoVs due to having less space for optics and wide scan area requirements. Since EOTS is both IRST and targeting system, it likely combines both wide FoV and very narrow FoV optics. Front looking DAS sensor makes very wide FoV redundant, so I bet it has something like 20-30 degree wide FoV and close to 1x1 degree narrow FoV for targeting and target identification.

Since that one image of MGM Grand Casino is taken from 49.1 nm away and has such a fine details, it validates the figures above. Having 1x1 degree FoV and that range would equate that every pixel covers pretty exactly 1.5 meters if a 1024x1024 sensor is used. I don't know how large windows MGM Grand has or the accurate figures of ther dimensions but it seems to me that the resolution might be higher that that. I doubt EOTS could have much higher magnification as that would require larger optics and I don't think there is space for that. To have 49.1 nm range and have that clear picture even in best conditions shows that the sensor has extremely good sensitivity. I say that EOTS is at least on par with latest pods in MWIR, which is the main operational wavelength. And this is the base-line EOTS and LM says that the advanced EOTS will have superior IR detector, which means higher resolution and/or sensitivity.
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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 08:04

geforcerfx wrote:Another nice aspect of the EOTS and F-35 combo is the F-35 having the displays with enough resolution and clarity to handle the EOTS's picture and future upgrades as well. I remember reading here guys talking about not being able to see targets on the screens in there 4th gen planes, but watching back on tv later could see them clear as day.


No doubt, hence the determination by AC command to finally upgrade existing F-16 and F-15 displays to more prudently handle their own respective, modern-day 3rd gen SNIPER FLIR and Litening ATP FLIR imagery capabilities (and the even more 'enhanced' 4th-generation FLIR in the case of LiTening G4/SE w/ 1k IR detector array) and next-gen SNIPER SE FLIR pod resolution being fielded soon too?

That said, it will be interesting if the the advanced EOTS will be in-line with the Enhanced 4th gen FLIR being fielded (which will probably have their own updates themselves by the early 2020s), or have even superior IR detection capabilities? The press release would seem to imply it will have 'leap ahead' capabilities vs the current 3rd gen FLIR.
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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 08:23

geogen wrote:it will be interesting if the the advanced EOTS will be in-line with the Enhanced 4th gen FLIR being fielded

What we know is that it is gaining two more capabilities, SWIR & HDTV along with a higher pixel count chip than current EOTS. Given that the news only broke today, it's too early to tell exactly what is involved.

One thing to keep in mind is that Northrup has already demonstrated the capability to fuse multiple pictures together to obtain a final image with much higher resolution. It is quite possible that EOTS already does this in order to ID a target long before a human looking at a video feed would be able to make the same ID. I'll have to dig up the relevant info. IIRC they do the same thing with SAR images to ID vehicles.
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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 08:25

hornetfinn wrote:It's pretty clear from looking EOTS pictures and videos, that it has very high performance MWIR sensor. It definitely has megapixel (at least 1024x1024 resolution) sensor and very good sensitivity. Magnification capabilties (Field of Views) are unknown, but Sniper XR pod has 1x1 degree narrow FoV and 4x4 degree wide FoV. Most targeting pods have similar FoVs and possibly also much wider FoVs for wide area coverage. IRSTs generally have much wider FoVs due to having less space for optics and wide scan area requirements. Since EOTS is both IRST and targeting system, it likely combines both wide FoV and very narrow FoV optics. Front looking DAS sensor makes very wide FoV redundant, so I bet it has something like 20-30 degree wide FoV and close to 1x1 degree narrow FoV for targeting and target identification.

Since that one image of MGM Grand Casino is taken from 49.1 nm away and has such a fine details, it validates the figures above. Having 1x1 degree FoV and that range would equate that every pixel covers pretty exactly 1.5 meters if a 1024x1024 sensor is used. I don't know how large windows MGM Grand has or the accurate figures of ther dimensions but it seems to me that the resolution might be higher that that. I doubt EOTS could have much higher magnification as that would require larger optics and I don't think there is space for that. To have 49.1 nm range and have that clear picture even in best conditions shows that the sensor has extremely good sensitivity. I say that EOTS is at least on par with latest pods in MWIR, which is the main operational wavelength. And this is the base-line EOTS and LM says that the advanced EOTS will have superior IR detector, which means higher resolution and/or sensitivity.


Fair analysis, but I'll add a few comments...

1) LM's new dedicated Legion IRST pod has I believe a 9.2" optic array (or is at least based off the existing 9.2" IRST pod), so there ample space for a fairly large, powerful-resolution optic in such a dedicated a-a IRST.

2) EOTS is reportedly a 3rd gen FLIR, based on the XR, which probably enables a 1k CCD TV, but possibly a 512x640 +/- IR array?

3) 4th gen FLIR such as the baseline Litening G4/SE has 1k in both IR and TV. It also apparently incorporates Short Wave IR capacity, while the 3rd gen FLIR (incl EOTS) apparently incorporate MWIR. It will thus no doubt be interesting how the future-enhanced Litening and Sniper super-enhanced 'bolt-on' pods will further be advanced in capabilities and modes by the early 2020s.

4) Lastly, the F-35 Block 4 'advanced' EOTS will reportedly also finally come with a ROVER capability, presumably in the early 2020s. Not a bad thing to have when operating in the CAS role.
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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 08:45

Considering that Block 4 EOTS is just now starting development that it will likely be better than current (or near term) Lightning & Sniper pods as more money ( development, procurement, and support) is available to the JSF program vs pod programs.

btw, It's not the Block4 EOTS that will have ROVER, but the F-35 itself as part of CNI software upgrades.
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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 09:32

geogen wrote:1) LM's new dedicated Legion IRST pod has I believe a 9.2" optic array (or is at least based off the existing 9.2" IRST pod), so there ample space for a fairly large, powerful-resolution optic in such a dedicated a-a IRST.

2) EOTS is reportedly a 3rd gen FLIR, based on the XR, which probably enables a 1k CCD TV, but possibly a 512x640 +/- IR array?

3) 4th gen FLIR such as the baseline Litening G4/SE has 1k in both IR and TV. It also apparently incorporates Short Wave IR capacity, while the 3rd gen FLIR (incl EOTS) apparently incorporate MWIR. It will thus no doubt be interesting how the future-enhanced Litening and Sniper super-enhanced 'bolt-on' pods will further be advanced in capabilities and modes by the early 2020s.

4) Lastly, the F-35 Block 4 'advanced' EOTS will reportedly also finally come with a ROVER capability, presumably in the early 2020s. Not a bad thing to have when operating in the CAS role.


I don't see any way EOTS is lower than 1kx1k sensor due to image quality in pictures and videos and cited distances. In some pictures and videos it seems to be even higher than that, but that might well be a result of using microscanning.

Yes, some very latest pods have features that current EOTS lacks. Of course EOTS also has features that most or all pods lack and that is very tight integration with powerful sensor fusion engine. This allows very automated operation extremely quickly compared to manually operated pods. Some pods have some integration with sensor fusion engines, but the integration doesn't seem nearly as tight and besides F-35 has by far the most advanced sensor fusion engine ever. Of course F-35 also has the best presentation system for the pilot (HMD).
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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 16:36

IMHO IRST21 (legion pod seem to have similar sensor size as Sniper-XR)
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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 16:42

hornetfinn wrote:Of course EOTS also has features that most or all pods lack and that is very tight integration with powerful sensor fusion engine. This allows very automated operation extremely quickly compared to manually operated pods. Some pods have some integration with sensor fusion engines, but the integration doesn't seem nearly as tight and besides F-35 has by far the most advanced sensor fusion engine ever. Of course F-35 also has the best presentation system for the pilot (HMD).


This

"Bolt on" any advance sensor you want to on a legacy platform and it would still lack the capability the F-35 could add to the same hardware, the F-35 just has so much more computing power inside then anything else flying in the west. You can give a F-16 a nice pod and better screens but it's still on the pilot to figure out what the pod is looking at, the F-35 has a advantage there.
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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 18:16

Lockheed Martin has announced an improved version of its electro-optical targeting system for the F-35, called Advanced EOTS, just months after the long-delayed fifth-generation fighter was declared fit for combat with the Marine Corps.

The new sensor developed internally by Lockheed is similarly sized and shaped to fit neatly into the same forward undercarriage position on the F-35, and the first prototype is expected next year.

The new and improved capabilities include short-wave infrared, high-definition television, infrared marker and superior image detector resolution than the baseline EOTS.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... or-416631/

So this settled the "F-35 10 years behind legacy jets" argument.
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Unread post11 Sep 2015, 19:11

Sure.. by the time it comes in Block4, they will say that it's 10 years behind whatever they want to make up.
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Unread post13 Sep 2015, 02:52

eloise wrote:IMHO IRST21 (legion pod seem to have similar sensor size as Sniper-XR)
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Actually.... not so similar.

The dedicated a-a IRST (a la Legion IRST) has a significantly larger staring optic diameter than the MWIR optic of a SNIPER FLIR. Probably at least 40% larger in diameter size. And in the case of a-a IRST mode capabilities... size of aperture does matter.
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