F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2015, 12:17
by joost
This article appeared in a Dutch Newspaper. Let's see if David Axe picks up this one :devil:

Translate with google and edited the text, sorry for the sometimes less perfect translation.

Pilots lyrical about testing JSF
F-35 tested in first dogfight

Amsterdam | Charles Sanders | Colonel Bert de Smit is one of four Dutch JSF pilots. "The difference with and without Lightning II is great."
Dutch glory above Edwards Air Force Base in California. The two Dutch F-35 Lightning II (JSF) -fighter jets performed there this week operational test with F-16s and a KDC-10 tanker, also of the Royal Netherlands Air Force.

Dutch F-35 pilots tested their jets in air combat and neutralize enemy weapons and that's a first. For dogfight with special equipment fitted A-4 Skyhawk jet fighters acting as 'Red air' enemy.

"The difference with or without the Lightning II is great," said the colonel Bert Smit, one of the four Dutch pilots on the innovative product and detachment commander of the F-35 unit. "Thanks to the huge sensor package, the Lightning II is of unprecedented value."

Because in the F-35 cockpit Smit can look with the sensors, including the advanced AN / APG81 radar, many tens of kilometers further than an F-16 pilot, every action of the "enemy" Skyhawk jet fighters could therefore already be countered in an extremely early stage.

"It is the first time that we share the ultra-strong F-35 sensors collected information with our own KDC-10 and in the Dutch F-16s stationed in the US for training purposes" said Smit. "Think of it as digital" talk "to other assets. Befriended aircraft are getting vital information such as imminent danger or information to disable targets. "

The Skyhawks proved every time to be outgunned by the presence of the Dutch F-35's. Both Lightning II were refueled in the air by US tankers.

The Dutch KDC-10 flew along in order to check whether the F-35 information on proper manner was shared. In the short term also the KDC-10 are certified to refuel the Lightning II in the air.

The Netherlands has so far ordered 37 Joint Strike Fighters by manufacturer Lockheed Martin. They need to replace the F-16s by 2017 which are flying on their last legs.

Vliegers lyrisch over testen JSF
F-35 aan tand gevoeld in eerste luchtgevecht

Amsterdam | Charles Sanders | Kolonel Bert de Smit is een van de vier Nederlandse JSF-vliegers. „Het verschil met en zonder Lightning II erbij is groot.”
Hollands glorie boven Edwards Air Force Base in Californië. Beide Nederlandse F-35 Lightning II (JSF)-jachtvliegtuigen voerden daar deze week operationele testen uit met F-16’s en een KDC-10-tanker, eveneens van de Koninklijke Luchtmacht.

Nederlandse vliegers kunnen de F-35 aan de tand voelen in het luchtgevecht en het neutraliseren van vijandelijke wapensystemen en dat is een primeur. Voor het luchtgevecht zijn met speciale apparatuur uitgeruste A-4 Skyhawk-straaljagers ingehuurd die als ’Red Air’-vijand fungeren.

„Het verschil mét of zonder de Lightning II erbij is groot”, zegt kolonel Bert de Smit, één van de vier Nederlandse vliegers op het ultramoderne toestel en detachementscommandant van de F-35-eenheid. „Dankzij het enorme sensorpakket is de Lightning II van ongekende meerwaarde.”

Want in de F-35-cockpit ziet De Smit door de sensoren, waaronder de geavanceerde AN/APG81-radar, vele tientallen kilometers verder dan een F-16 vlieger. Elke actie van de ’vijandelijke’ Skyhawk-straaljagers kon daardoor al in een extreem vroeg stadium worden gepareerd.

„Het is voor het eerst dat we door de ultrasterke F-35-sensoren opgevangen informatie delen met onze eigen KDC-10 en in de VS voor opleidingsdoeleinden gestationeerde luchtmacht-F-16’s”, aldus De Smit. „Beschouw het als digitaal ’praten’ met die andere toestellen. Bevriende crews krijgen zo voor hun essentiële informatie over bijvoorbeeld dreigend gevaar of uit te schakelen doelen.”

De Skyhawks bleken elke keer kansloos door de aanwezigheid van de Nederlandse F-35’s. Beide Lightning II’s werden in de lucht bijgetankt door Amerikaanse tankers.

De Nederlandse KDC-10 vloog vooral mee om te kunnen checken of de F-35 informatie op goede wijze werd gedeeld. Op korte termijn zal ook de KDC-10 gecertificeerd zijn om de Lightning II in de lucht bij te tanken.

Nederland heeft vooralsnog 37 Joint Strike Fighters bij fabrikant Lockheed Martin besteld. Ze moeten vanaf 2017 de op hun tandvlees vliegende F-16’s vervangen.

http://eservice-data.solidam.com.s3-web ... b2828.html

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2015, 14:09
by bring_it_on
Image

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2015, 14:37
by joost
More here on a blog written by another Dutch Pilot on the defense page (roughly translated):

Monday August 24
Like a charm
Weekend, time to come back and give some attention to my family. From 8 in the morning till 8 in the evening we are hard at work at Edwards. The purpose of these two weeks is to test how our F-16s, so-called 4th generation appliances integrate with that of the 5th generation F-35.

What in all kinds of scenarios are good techniques and tactics? In order to find an answer, we fly our F-35s and F-16s from Tucson these two weeks all kinds of missions. Besides students of our F-16 training squadron we also fly with experienced pilots operating them from the Netherlands. And our American and British colleagues. Think of it as a mini-Red Flag (flying exercise in the United States, ed.).

Last week we started air-to-air, airspace defense. Then followed missions against ground targets. The flights are becoming increasingly complex. Everything then comes together. What difference can make the F-35 in these scenarios?

Much, so I can tell you. I already saw last Tuesday when I started up for the first mission. All participating aircraft were suddenly on my Link-16 network. That meant I could share all the information of the sensors of my superior F-35 with them in real time.

It worked like a charm. Their situational awareness (knowing what's going on around you, ed.) was now much impressively more. And that's vital. So had our four F-16 boys the first day still formidable opponents on the A-4 Skyhawks. But with one F-35 we suddenly appeared 100 times more effectively.

That is promising for the really complex missions later this week!

Smiley

Tuesday, August 25
More brain bytes
Let me be clear: the F-16 is a fantastic aircraft to fly. The F-35 is flying more or less the same. Only slightly easier, more stable, more relaxed.

Lockheed Martin built both aircraft. That makes the transition from F-16 to F-35 is relatively simple. The buttons on your stick and your throttle are similar. It all works very intuitive. The F-35 is just as maneuverable as the F-16. Although the F-35 by its larger weight just is slightly more robust. To say: He is firmly on the road.

The F-35 has a lot of new gadgets and goodies. Such as the automatic throttle. Or the system where you can "smartly" refuel in the air'. In the F-16 the aircraft is, when refueling, as quick and agile as normal. As a F-35 pilot, you can enable a mode where you can mute the flight controls, as it were. The rudder movements are less severe, making the whole air refueling process easier.

The sensors of the F-35 are really amazing. As a pilot you are presented with a much brighter picture than you are used to in the F-16. My sensors see much more and much further ahead. And because the F-35 flies so easily, I keep more brain bytes available to deploy in my sensors better. Smart computers on the same time holds large amount of sensor data manageable. Data that I can upload on my turn to our F-16s or our KDC-10 through our link 16 data network.

In short, the F-16 is still a great aircraft. But with the F-35 it all does work even more sophisticated and more effective.

Smiley


https://www.defensie.nl/onderwerpen/f-3 ... htsvlieger

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2015, 15:40
by lamoey
joost wrote:The F-35 has a lot of new gadgets and goodies. Such as the automatic throttle. Or the system where you can "smartly" refuel in the air'. In the F-16 the aircraft is, when refueling, as quick and agile as normal. As a F-35 pilot, you can enable a mode where you can mute the flight controls, as it were. The rudder movements are less severe, making the whole air refueling process easier.


Thanks Joost for the translations. Nice reading indeed.

I would think that the F-16 flight control system could relatively easily have been updated to have the same "muted" rudder function when the refueling door is open. Just as it has automatic rudder compensation when the gun is fired. It also has reduced rudder action at high AOL or during landing with landing gear extended (IIRC).

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2015, 18:06
by oldiaf
Finally some good news for the troubled JSF

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2015, 18:27
by SpudmanWP
"Finally"?

It's not hard to see good news in the program as long as you are not blinded by uninformed & biased opinion pieces.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2015, 18:30
by wrightwing
I suspect that in the coming months and years, we're going to hear a lot more good news stories about the F-35's ACM performance.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2015, 19:10
by spazsinbad
'oldiaf' has been tutored by the BSamiableButler "FINALLY" duo.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 00:12
by bring_it_on
A-4 Skyhawks support F-35 operational testing

8/27/2015 - EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. -- A-4 Skyhawks have taken to the skies over Edwards in support of operational test of the F-35A for the Royal Netherlands Air Force. They are part of a tactics development and evaluation exercise initiated by the 323nd Test and Evaluation Squadron and supported by the Joint Strike Fighter Operational Test Team from Aug. 17-28.

"Each service and each country has their own specific test events that they want to test for themselves, for their own service and their own country requirements," said Rich Radvanyi, JOTT Planning Cell chief.

The JOTT has five operational test squadrons composed of the 31st Test and Evaluation Squadron, the Marines' VMX-22 squadron, the United Kingdom squadron 17(R), the Dutch 323nd Test and Evaluation Squadron and Navy squadron VX-9.

In support of the exercise, the Royal Netherlands Air Force also brought in six F-16s from the 162nd Fighter Wing, Arizona Air National Guard to serve as either allied or adversary aircraft, along with a KDC-10 Air Refueling tanker from the Royal Netherlands Air Force 334th Transport Squadron at Eindhoven Airport, Netherlands. The JOTT contracted Draken International to provide the small fleet of A-4s that were employed as adversary aircraft with a variety of types of mission sets.

For instance, if the test plan required the F-35 pilot to fly against Russian tactics, the Draken pilots would present the same tactics that a Russian fighter pilot would present.

"A lot of the Draken pilots are former military or some are even current guard or reserve pilots. A lot of them had been adversary air pilots before, so they replicate the tactics of different adversary countries," said Radvanyi.

Draken International pilot Jeff Scott, who retired as a lieutenant colonel after 27 years in the Marine Corps, has been flying for 17 years and received his wings in an A-4.

"I flew F-35s before I retired and now I'm on the other side flying against them," said Scott.

The test event will enable an initial assessment of 4th and 5th generation fighter integration, including Link-16 interoperability aspects.

The lessons learned will lay the ground work for future cooperation between 4th and 5th generation fighters and will help shape F-35A tactics for the RNLAF.

"There's really nothing better than actually going out there and flying and putting the actual aircraft against an actual threat and seeing how it works," Radvanyi said. "This has been very, very beneficial."

During the two-week test event, the JOTT organized one large force engagement each day with as many as 12 aircraft flying at a time. While only four Skyhawks flew at a time, there were up to six on the ramp at times.

"It's been a unique opportunity to see a type of adversary aircraft that you wouldn't normally see," said Radvanyi. "The A-4 Skyhawk is not in service with the U.S. military anymore so it's something that would not normally be seen by the crews that are flying here now."

According to Scott, Draken International purchased their A-4s from the Royal New Zealand Air Force. Their fleet differs from the A-4s that were once use by the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps because they have been upgraded with F-16A avionics like APG-66 radars, radar warning receivers, heads-up displays and a digital data bus.

They also have electronic attack pods that can be used to simulate special presentation requirements for test events.

"It's a very reliable airplane," said Scott, adding that the team at Edwards has been "excellent, everyone has been very supportive."

Skyhawks were mainly flown by the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps. The Navy's Blue Angels flight demonstration squadron flew the A-4 Skyhawk II from 1974 to 1986. Skyhawks were also used by the armed forces of Argentina, Australia, Israel, Kuwait, Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia and New Zealand, and they remained active with several air services into the 2000s.



Image

Image

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 00:41
by smsgtmac
This new info makes the A-4 engagement all that more interesting. Those are NOT your grandpa's Skyhawks, and it looks like more info should be flowing out of these engagements.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 01:31
by treebeard
According to Joost's blog, those A-4s gave the "4 F-16 pilots" (guessing in a 4 vs 4 engagement) a run for their money inasmuch as they are described as "formidable opponents". The presence of one F-35, however, increased their effectiveness 'by a hundred times' because of the F-35s ability to improve the situational awareness of the Falcons.

The more complex are conducted as we speak, though.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 02:47
by spazsinbad
Heheh. In that first foto above N147EM DRAKEN A-4 has quite the history. First it was an A-4F in the USN serving in Vietnam and then refurbished as an A4G to be arriving at NAS Nowra late in 1971 with the second batch of 10 Skyhawks. It survived RAN service to be onsold to the RNZAF mid 1984 where it rolled upon landing at RAAF Townsville Oz during a thunderstorm, pilot OK (the aircraft at that point was still in Oz two tone camo paint and had not been converted to A-4K standard at that time [meaning it lacked the drag chute]). After some years the aircraft was repaired and then converted to A-4K KAHU standard which is mentioned in the last few paragraphs of the long USAF article above. Now we see it in the last RNZAF paint scheme with DRAKEN stuff painted on top. A short history from Oz ADFserials....

The second photo in the article above shows a different model Skyhawk (not from Oz) and is likely an A-4L in form with the ex-A4G etc.
N13-155069 A-4G 877 [later NZ6218] Bu.No. 155069 then DRAKEN N147EM etc...
Last A-4F built. First flight June 29, 1967 (as A-4F). Served in Vietnam on USS Ranger with VA-155 26/10/68 - 17/05/69, on USS Hancock with VA-212 02/08/69 - 15/04/70. Severely damaged in a wire strike 02/07/69 with USN. Fuselage was bent and never fully repaired. Before transfer to RAN the aircraft had 712.5 flight hours logged. Delivered to RAN 08/71. Unloaded from HMAS Sydney onto RAN Lighter at Jervis Bay August 11, 1971 then by road transport to Nowra. Ex. Tasmanex '79, launched from Melbourne August 7 and landed at RNZAF Ohakea, based out of there until August 17 when landed back on the Melbourne. Withdrawn from RAN service June 30, 1983 and stored for sale. To RNZAF 07/84 as NZ6218, now A-4K. Damaged in roll over while aquaplaning on landing 03/06/85 at Townsville QLD, it was returned to
New Zealand and repaired. It returned to service on 29/03/90. Retired by RNZAF and stored 15/08/01, with 5594 hours on airframe.” Sold to DRAKEN after a 12 years in storage in New Zealand in 2013.

Photos show RAN FAA heyday arrest HMAS Melbourne in the mid to late 1970s and then the roll over aftermath.

Source: http://www.adf-serials.com.au/n13.htm

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 05:56
by eloise
Anyone here have EM graph of A-4? how agile it is compare to F-16?
why did they used F-16 + F-35 vs A-4 though ? why not opposite ( F-35+ A-4 vs F-16) ? A-4 seem to have worse kinematic characteristics compared to F-16

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 06:04
by spazsinbad
Perhaps not exactly what you require because the A-4E/F/G NATOPS is from 1972 when printing technology was not always so great hence the graphs at the back of NATOPS can be difficult to decipher now once made into the 'best' PDF possible. The entire A4G NATOPS at best quality is here: (otherwise I'll see what can be excerpted meaningfully)

In the folder "Documents & Videos Various": https://onedrive.live.com/?id=CBCD63D63 ... E6&group=0

_A4G_NATOPS_Text_Searchable+BookMarks.PDF (138Mb)

REMEMBER the best thing to do is to RIGHT MOUSE CLICK on the PDF file named and 'Save As' to your computer first.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 06:12
by eloise
thanks alot spazsinbad

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 06:39
by spazsinbad
The Graphic attached shows only two pages - some of the few which have been 'annotated' in pencil all those years ago by the instructor who had passed on this NATOPS to me (because it had become superseded by a completely new entirely reprinted version which happened from time to time - rather than just adding / subtracting new/old pages). So the maximum number of 'performance' pages - these only for the engine in the A4G (also all A-4F/Ks and some other variants) at 9,300 of noise - so keep that in mind. The entire NATOPS has the smaller engine found in the A-4E mostly (it can get complicated) data also. The LARGer Engine take off performance pages have been deleted to make the file size limit here.

Remember to click on the graphic to zoom to size or download it also.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 10:30
by zero-one
eloise wrote:Anyone here have EM graph of A-4? how agile it is compare to F-16?
why did they used F-16 + F-35 vs A-4 though ? why not opposite ( F-35+ A-4 vs F-16) ? A-4 seem to have worse kinematic characteristics compared to F-16



I'd have to agree, using an A-4 is no longer tactically representative of future or even current threats.

I understand that the purpose was simply to see how the F-35 would integrate with 4th gen platforms on an operation
but the use of substandard threat equipment may give false impressions of effectiveness.

I'm happy that the Norwegians partially addressed the maneuverability issue with the F-35A but I don't understand what
they mean by "the F-35 is slightly more robust".

He was talking about weight, so maybe what he meant was that the F-35 was less likely to be affected by turbulence or such

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 10:41
by joost
Norwegians???!!! You truly are American! :)

I think the article and blog shows more than ever what the F-35 is build for: to gain air domination by using its superior sensors, to share data real time with other assets and to thwart any moves by red forces in a very early stage. That A-4s are used as Red Forces only underlines this more: while the A-4 is agile, it is useless against an adversary that has the situational awareness and means to counter....how good the maneuverability is. Reminds me of a scene in a movie, where a ship is entered. At one scene two adversaries are facing each other. One is making all kinds of impressive karate moves. The other just draws a gun and shoots him. That is how I look at the F-35 versus older "dogfighting" fighters. Impressive if you can turn and twist, but useless if that does not bring the kill!

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 10:43
by MD
zero-one wrote:
I'd have to agree, using an A-4 is no longer tactically representative of future or even current threats.


Meh. I can see the A-4 for WVR representation of L-39 style threats or possibly the few remaining MiG-17 variants around. Doesn't hurt for some good dissimilar work.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 11:20
by joost
Next blog translated for you:

Here in dutch and also with some nice pictures!: https://www.defensie.nl/onderwerpen/f-3 ... htsvlieger

Thursday August 27
No surprises
"I have seen this yesterday," I thought to myself before my first flight with the F-35, on November 18, 2014. The day before I had my first 'test flight rehearsal' in the simulator. In it I flew exactly the trip that I would fly the next day in real life.
The F-35 simulator is extremely good, very real. In the F-35 you cannot fly in a backseat contrary to the F-16. So practice the basic flying, every emergency procedure and every mission extensively on a simulator. And your first flight is directly “for real”.
Beforehand I knew it would be cool, but once in the sim it was super. The virtual world around you is very realistic. Identical to the real situation, including the weather conditions.
On the day itself the only thing that was new was boarding the aircraft. I was perfectly prepared for the flying. I turned on the starter motor, closed the canopy, called the tower and from that moment it was just okay. No nerves, no surprises, I knew exactly what to do.
Only boarding is laborious. Youclick your 5-point harness, connecting connectors include your oxygen, communication and survival kit. And then your helmet. Summed up it seems like a whole exercise, but you get used to it quickly.
The cockpit is larger and more spacious than the F-16. At missions over Afghanistan, I was sometimes built in between all my cards, lunch boxes and drinks. Now I have much more space. Compared to the F-16, there are fewer buttons and switches. In front of me, I have a kind of mega-iPad. Most buttons are on my throttle and my stick. Thus learning to work is like learning to play the piano: you have to be nimble-fingered and then everything goes on intuition.
Smiley

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 11:44
by zero-one
joost wrote:Norwegians???!!! You truly are American! :)

I think the article and blog shows more than ever what the F-35 is build for: to gain air domination by using its superior sensors, to share data real time with other assets and to thwart any moves by red forces in a very early stage. That A-4s are used as Red Forces only underlines this more: while the A-4 is agile, it is useless against an adversary that has the situational awareness and means to counter....how good the maneuverability is. Reminds me of a scene in a movie, where a ship is entered. At one scene two adversaries are facing each other. One is making all kinds of impressive karate moves. The other just draws a gun and shoots him. That is how I look at the F-35 versus older "dogfighting" fighters. Impressive if you can turn and twist, but useless if that does not bring the kill!


Even in a kinematic point of view, the A-4 no longer accurately depicts the threats we see today. You are correct in saying that the A-4 is like a guy doing all kinds of karate moves. No guns, wearing bright white clothes and a black belt.
He will instantly get killed in any kind of modern shooting war.

But thats not what an enemy sends out. they will more likely send out special ops units that are these big muscle bound guys that are armed with all sorts of long range rifles and also experts in close quarter combat even with a knife.

Thats what a good air dominance platform looks like, you cannot simply rely on one particular strength and dismiss the other as useless.

Never leave out the possibility that an adversary may find it's way to a flight of F-35, because once you have a guy at your 6, no amount of data sharing can shake him off you. you'll need to rely on what the F-35 can actually do in order to get out of that situation.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 12:26
by f35phixer
one other thing to note, we will not need to have external LFE blue training pods hanging, we will use P5, so always representive of a day one configuration for training.....

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 12:46
by reaper
eloise wrote:Anyone here have EM graph of A-4? how agile it is compare to F-16?
why did they used F-16 + F-35 vs A-4 though ? why not opposite ( F-35+ A-4 vs F-16) ? A-4 seem to have worse kinematic characteristics compared to F-16


Because the purpose of the test was to look at interoperability maybe? Having the F-16 as red air and the A-4 on their side wouldn't have worked.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 12:52
by quicksilver
Anyone here ever fought a slick A-4 w a 408 engine?

...very competitive with F-16 in certain parts of the E-M diagram. Until they retired them, IAF guys (the dudes w the blue star of david in the roundel) were very good at fighting the "6 decade-old" design competitively against their own Vipers.

Give them 'a helmet' and a HOBS missile and the Scooters are a handful.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 13:05
by quicksilver
reaper wrote:
eloise wrote:Anyone here have EM graph of A-4? how agile it is compare to F-16?
why did they used F-16 + F-35 vs A-4 though ? why not opposite ( F-35+ A-4 vs F-16) ? A-4 seem to have worse kinematic characteristics compared to F-16


Because the purpose of the test was to look at interoperability maybe?


Ding, ding. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner...

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 16:37
by treebeard
The purpose was indeed focused on interoperability between the F-35 and F-16 as well as between the F-35 and KDC-10.

But then again, other set ups for test engagements are not necessarily ruled out;
"In support of the exercise, the Royal Netherlands Air Force also brought in six F-16s from the 162nd Fighter Wing, Arizona Air National Guard to serve as either allied or adversary aircraft, along with a KDC-10 Air Refueling tanker from the Royal Netherlands Air Force 334th Transport Squadron at Eindhoven Airport, Netherlands."


According to the Dutch pilot, the more complex missions would be flown somewhere at the end of this week.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2015, 17:09
by archeman
Quick test of your attention to detail...
One of these planes doesn't need external fuel tanks to go play air-2-air combat.


Can you pick out which one it is????


150827_F_ZZ999_002.jpg

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2015, 08:35
by geforcerfx
Hey Spaz are those two different A-4 models in archeman's picture?

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2015, 08:56
by popcorn
eloise wrote: why not opposite ( F-35+ A-4 vs F-16) ?

You train the way you intend to fight. F-35s are not going to partner with A-4s in the real world.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2015, 09:19
by m
Discovery Air Defence Deploys A-4 Skyhawks to Support the German Air Force in Italy

Quote: Montreal, June 25, 2015 - Discovery Air Defence Services Inc. ("DA Defence"), a wholly owned subsidiary of Discovery Air Inc. has deployed McDonnell Douglas A-4 Skyhawks to Decimomannu Air Base in Sardinia, Italy. The DA Defence Skyhawks are providing Red Air adversary training support to German Air Force (Luftwaffe) Eurofighters on deployment in Italy.

DA Defence is providing Red Air mission training embedded with Eurofighters from the Luftwaffe's Tactical Air Force Wing 73 "Steinhoff." The training exercise in Decimomannu is scheduled for completion in late June.

"This first deployment to Italy demonstrates the confidence and trust by the Luftwaffe for DA Defence to deliver air combat training of the highest order," said Daniel Gibeau, Chief Operating Officer of DA Defence. "Our modernized McDonnell Douglas A-4 Skyhawks are flying dissimilar air combat training missions against the best of the Luftwaffe. Our capabilities, people and experience continue to contribute to the finest combat pilots for Germany and directly to readiness for NATO missions."
http://www.discoveryair-ds.com/page?a=1538&lang=en-CA

Red Air
January 10, 2011 - Truth Duty Valour Episode 409 Exercise Maple Flag - War Games in the Sky - this segment explains the role of Red Air.
http://www.discoveryair-ds.com/page?a=497&lang=en-CA

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2015, 09:36
by spazsinbad
This is under the photo: "...The second photo in the article above shows a different model Skyhawk (not from Oz) and is likely an A-4L [actually A-4N] in form with the ex-A4G etc." A way to check is to go to DRAKEN website to see what other than A-4K KAHU Skyhawks they fly there: http://www.drakenintl.com/aircraft-inventory.html The info on the Skyhawk is a bit erroneous because they bought 6 ex-A4G/A-4K Kahu Skyhawks PLUS two TA-4K Kahu Trainers (ex RNZAF only). So that leaves 3 unaccounted for Skyhawks which will be their earlier model used as per:
Draken International Adds Six A-4N Skyhawks to Growing Fleet
12 Dec 2014 PR WEB

“Draken International, a provider of 4th-generation tactical flight support, has completed an acquisition of six McDonnell Douglas A-4N Skyhawks [modified A-4Ms for Israeli Air Force hence the longer tailpipe for IR protection] from BAE Systems and has successfully flown these aircraft back to the United States from Germany...."

Source: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/12/prweb12392964.htm

Earlier DRAKEN did have 3 A-4Ls but it seems these have been retired (probably when A-4K Kahus came along).
NEW AGGRESSOR IN THE COMMERCIAL ADVERSARY SUPPORT GAME: DRAKEN INTERNATIONAL BETS BIG ON RED AIR
07 Aug 2012 aviationintel.com

"...3 A-4L Skyhawks: Currently wearing “zebra’ camouflage and Draken International titles...."

Source: http://aviationintel.com/2012/08/07/new ... n-red-air/

BELOW IS THE ZEBRA A-4L http://www.flickr.com/photos/fujiboy/75 ... otostream/

Whilst a BAE A-4N is here: http://img.planespotters.net/photo/4130 ... 413429.jpg

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2015, 15:47
by basher54321
The way I always check a Skyhawk II (A-4M/N) is the different / larger canopy - Israel also modified its A-4H/E/Fs with the avionics hump and IR tailpipe.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2015, 16:41
by mk82
" Because in the F-35 cockpit Smit can look with the sensors, including the advanced AN / APG81 radar, many tens of kilometers further than an F-16 pilot, every action of the "enemy" Skyhawk jet fighters could therefore already be countered in an extremely early stage."

This paragraph says it all!!

I am suspecting that if the adversary A4s are replaced by F16s, the results will be the same. Red air F16s getting thrashed good. Must be no fun eating an AMRAAM or even a Sidewinder in the face whilst trying to gain situational awareness from disparate sensors/sources of data and coming up belatedly with a "game plan".

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2015, 18:46
by smsgtmac
reaper wrote:
eloise wrote:Anyone here have EM graph of A-4? how agile it is compare to F-16?
why did they used F-16 + F-35 vs A-4 though ? why not opposite ( F-35+ A-4 vs F-16) ? A-4 seem to have worse kinematic characteristics compared to F-16


Because the purpose of the test was to look at interoperability maybe? Having the F-16 as red air and the A-4 on their side wouldn't have worked.


The objective of the scenarios was obviously for the DUTCH to evaluate qualitatively and perhaps quantitatively the advantages of the F-35 over the F-16 against some control baseline. In this case, it appears the baseline scenario provided some challenges for the F-16 that disappeared when the F-35 was added into the mix. We see it was also not lost on the DUTCH that the F-35 enhances the F-16's performance as well.
It is only an interesting side-benefit that it will irritate the 'maneuverability' fetishists to no end--Since apparently the fight never devolved to a point where F-35 'maneuverability' was a factor. Who'd a thunk? :wink:

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2015, 20:23
by m
smsgtmac wrote:
reaper wrote:
eloise wrote:Anyone here have EM graph of A-4? how agile it is compare to F-16?
why did they used F-16 + F-35 vs A-4 though ? why not opposite ( F-35+ A-4 vs F-16) ? A-4 seem to have worse kinematic characteristics compared to F-16


Because the purpose of the test was to look at interoperability maybe? Having the F-16 as red air and the A-4 on their side wouldn't have worked.


The objective of the scenarios was obviously for the DUTCH to evaluate qualitatively and perhaps quantitatively the advantages of the F-35 over the F-16 against some control baseline. In this case, it appears the baseline scenario provided some challenges for the F-16 that disappeared when the F-35 was added into the mix. We see it was also not lost on the DUTCH that the F-35 enhances the F-16's performance as well.
It is only an interesting side-benefit that it will irritate the 'maneuverability' fetishists to no end--Since apparently the fight never devolved to a point where F-35 'maneuverability' was a factor. Who'd a thunk? :wink:

It's not a specifically Dutch test, although Dutch F16's were used for testing interoperability. But testing within the IOT&E phase. As well 6 US and British F35 joined in these two weeks. At least one of the Dutch F35's is orange wired with specific equipment for collecting data. Suppose the Dutch , as partners in the IOT&E phase, offered their F16's
This kind of testing seems, within some time, to be done with Apache helicopters as well

Monday August 24
Quote: The purpose of these two weeks is to test how our F-16s, so-called 4th generation appliances integrate with that of the 5th generation F-35. (translation Google)
https://www.defensie.nl/onderwerpen/f-3 ... htsvlieger

Using these 6 F16's and a KDC-10 saves at least some US tax payer money :wink:

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2015, 03:00
by smsgtmac
m wrote:It's not a specifically Dutch test, although Dutch F16's were used for testing interoperability. But testing within the IOT&E phase. As well 6 US and British F35 joined in these two weeks. At least one of the Dutch F35's is orange wired with specific equipment for collecting data. Suppose the Dutch , as partners in the IOT&E phase, offered their F16's
This kind of testing seems, within some time, to be done with Apache helicopters as well

Monday August 24
Quote: The purpose of these two weeks is to test how our F-16s, so-called 4th generation appliances integrate with that of the 5th generation F-35. (translation Google)
https://www.defensie.nl/onderwerpen/f-3 ... htsvlieger

Using these 6 F16's and a KDC-10 saves at least some US tax payer money :wink:


Yeah I got the whole Kumbaya Joint Test (JOTT) bit in the Edwards press release. I was snarking on the point that no Norwegians were harmed in the conduct of these tests. :wink:

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2015, 03:13
by geogen
bring_it_on wrote:Image


Pretty impressive shot of F-35 going vertical from a start-point of 10' feet?? One could only imagine what the rate of climb is, clean, with a mere 2x AAM, vs other competitors...

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2015, 04:13
by spazsinbad
:mrgreen: Nah - the aircraft is straight and level - the earth rotated especially for the shot - and.... gravity sucks - man. :devil:

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2015, 10:47
by sdkf251
Perfect Picture! :D Perfect audio for the picture is the "Magic carpet ride" by Steppenwolf!
(or born to be wild is great too)

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2015, 11:10
by spazsinbad
:devil: Some TOOL music for A4G action movie aboard HMAS Melbourne :devil:


Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2015, 17:53
by spazsinbad
The OLD magic carpet ride (before Magic Carpet today) along song video


Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2015, 17:55
by m
geogen wrote:
bring_it_on wrote:Image


Pretty impressive shot of F-35 going vertical from a start-point of 10' feet?? One could only imagine what the rate of climb is, clean, with a mere 2x AAM, vs other competitors...

Not a Norwegian F16, but a Dutch F16 was hit bij machine gun fire earlier this year above Iraq. :wink:
Probably flying low, firing the 20 mm canon.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2015, 17:59
by spazsinbad
Over on the A-10 CAS thread 'Gums' posted the 'BORN TO BE WILD' video: [A-4 winking screenshot from this video]

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=24483&p=300393&hilit=traditional#p300393


Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2015, 00:36
by sdkf251
"The OLD magic carpet ride (before Magic Carpet today) along song video"

Now that is what I am talking about! The Tool is kind of odd for me, but I get it. :D Also, just realized, the topic title is actually very apt for the these videos. "F-35 pilots lyrical about the F-35". :D

Hurriedly going to Gum's post.....

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2015, 13:20
by spazsinbad
TOOL song fitted nicely (some of the lyrics very appropriate) and I like some heavy metal turned up to ELEVEN! ORION by METALLICA is a classic example. A pic of the ex-A4Gs/Kahus here: http://aviationweek.com/site-files/avia ... /F-35s.jpg

The TA-4K Kahu shown is an original Kiwi RNZAF Skyhawk (modified). The only remaining TA4G gone Kiwis is now in the Fleet Air Arm Museum at NAS Nowra (FAAM). Good on youse Kiwis. The second ex-TA4G spun into water pilot ejected OK.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2015, 02:13
by spazsinbad
A ShalalLookieLooLeeLOOK at that exercise....
Tests show F-35s can share data with older aircraft
28 Aug 2015 Andrea Shalal

"Aug 28 Two weeks of joint testing of the Lockheed Martin Corp F-35 fighter jet at a California air base by the Royal Netherlands Air Force showed that the new stealthy jets are able to share a significant amount of data with older warplanes, the pilot in charge of Dutch F-35 testing told Reuters.

Colonel Albert De Smit, commander of the Netherlands operational test detachment, said the testing sought to validate that the new fifth-generation F-35s could share useable data with older F-16s and aerial refueling aircraft via the Link 16 system.

He said the results showed that during combat, the F-35 could help relay key targeting, surveillance and other data to less capable F-16s and other planes, in much the same way that the U.S. Air Force's F-22 fighter jets work with older aircraft.

"The amount of information that we can share is very promising," De Smit said in a telephone interview this week. "It provides fourth generation aircraft with information that they normally would not have ... It looks like they're going to be able to execute a better mission" if used together with F-35 jets.

He added that it could take months to fully evaluate the results of the tests, which involved two to three Dutch and British F-35s, as well as Dutch F-16s, refueling planes and a small fleet of A-4 Skyhawks posing as enemy aircraft....

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/ ... 0720150828

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2015, 02:43
by m
spazsinbad wrote:A ShalalLookieLooLeeLOOK at that exercise....
Tests show F-35s can share data with older aircraft
28 Aug 2015 Andrea Shalal

"Aug 28 Two weeks of joint testing of the Lockheed Martin Corp F-35 fighter jet at a California air base by the Royal Netherlands Air Force showed that the new stealthy jets are able to share a significant amount of data with older warplanes, the pilot in charge of Dutch F-35 testing told Reuters.

Colonel Albert De Smit, commander of the Netherlands operational test detachment, said the testing sought to validate that the new fifth-generation F-35s could share useable data with older F-16s and aerial refueling aircraft via the Link 16 system.

He said the results showed that during combat, the F-35 could help relay key targeting, surveillance and other data to less capable F-16s and other planes, in much the same way that the U.S. Air Force's F-22 fighter jets work with older aircraft.

"The amount of information that we can share is very promising," De Smit said in a telephone interview this week. "It provides fourth generation aircraft with information that they normally would not have ... It looks like they're going to be able to execute a better mission" if used together with F-35 jets.

He added that it could take months to fully evaluate the results of the tests, which involved two to three Dutch and British F-35s, as well as Dutch F-16s, refueling planes and a small fleet of A-4 Skyhawks posing as enemy aircraft....

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/ ... 0720150828

According the RNLAF:
o 2 Dutch F-35's A's (test equipment)
o 6 US/UK F-35 A/B
o 6 Dutch F-16s
o 1 Dutch KDC-10 tanker aircraft
o 1 American DC-10-transport
o 5 American A-4 Skyhawk fighter jets

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2015, 15:28
by joost
New blog from Maj. Pascal Smaal, for Dutch and Pics click on the link

https://www.defensie.nl/onderwerpen/f-3 ... htsvlieger

Saturday August 29
Star Wars in the cockpit
My aviator helmet comes straight out of Star Wars. Super Cool. The plane has no head-up display anymore. All the information you need as a pilot, is simply projected on the inside of my visor. I see all kinds of tactical information on it. Consider data from my radar and various other sensors, but also the information my wingman sees with its sensors.

When it gets dark, I can project images from the infrared camera of the F-35 on my visor. These cameras give me a continuous 360 degree view around the aircraft. Everywhere I move my head, I see shades of an infrared image of the world. Also underneath the aircraft is a camera. So when I look down, I do not see my legs, but I look right through the plane. You look straight into the world beneath you.

Apart from the infrared image, I can also select a night vision filter. The same as my F-16 colleagues and other aircrews have when they fly with so-called night vision goggles. That gives me the night 360 degree view of my environment. That not only sounds very cool, but also provides optimal situational awareness at night.

The helmet is very comfortable. The inner shell is poured on my head, so it fits perfectly. In addition, the helmet is also relatively light. That is extremely important with all the G-forces generated during a flight.

There's also a built-in active noise reduction system in my helmet. This produces a sort of counter sound. This allows for example that the noise of the engines is muted. Finally, there is also the option to work with voice commands. Change radio channels or set navigation points, everything is voice-controlled. In short, the F-35 aircraft is of the 5th generation, but also the F-35 aviator helmet is ahead of its time.

Smiley

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2015, 16:07
by spazsinbad
Draken Supports Multinational F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Exercise
31 Aug 2015 PRNewswire

"LAKELAND, Fla., -- Draken International, the leading global provider of contract air services, recently supported operational testing of the F-35 at Edwards Air Force Base by flying the company's A-4K fighter jets as simulated adversaries. The large force training exercise was initiated by the 323rd Test and Evaluation Squadron and supported by the Joint Strike Fighter Operational Test Team from Aug. 17-28. This was the first time any commercial air services company had provided adversary support for the F-35.

Draken flew as many as five of their A-4K aircraft at a time as adversaries in support of F-35 operational testing against both Royal Netherlands Air Force and Royal Air Force F-35A and F-35B aircraft as well as Royal Netherlands F-16 Vipers.

Draken's A-4K aircraft are equipped with 4th generation technology such as Pulse Doppler radar, electronic attack pods, and ground controllers to provide realistic threat presentations for integrated F-35 operational testing. The test exercise will enable an initial assessment of 4th and 5th generation fighter integration, including Link-16 interoperability aspects. The lessons learned will lay the groundwork for future cooperation between 4th and 5th generation fighters and will help shape F-35A tactics.

Draken Pilot Jeff Scott comments, "As a former Marine F-35 squadron commander and now Draken A-4 aggressor, I feel fortunate to be able to support the next generation premier fighter aircraft in this capacity. Our goal was to present a realistic adversary with our radar-equipped aircraft and challenge their systems. As you would expect, we were impressed by the F-35 and its pilots. They performed with state-of-the-art precision and we look forward to being their sparring partner again very soon."

Draken's support of the F-35 was historic, but it will assuredly not be the last time the company supports such an exercise. Draken maintains the world's largest privately owned fleet of fighter aircraft and is the only commercial air services provider with 4th generation fighter capabilities. This uniquely positions the company to meet the tremendous demand for realistic training adversaries at a fraction of the cost of military jets.

Draken CEO Jared Isaacman states, "It is such a privilege for us to be able to provide such critical and realistic training to the global F-35 community while at the same time realizing enormous cost savings for the Department of Defense and American taxpayers."

Draken VP of Business Development Sean Gustafson adds, "We're excited to be supporting such an important global defense initiative as the F-35 and also very proud of the entire organization for a number of recent achievements. In addition to the F-35 training exercise, Draken has also recently supported the USAF's large force exercise 'Northern Lightning', USMC live-fire close air support for JTAC training, and aggressor support for the French Navy. In fact, this past week Draken conducted flight operations nearly simultaneously in France, Cherry Point NC, Yuma, AZ, Lakeland, FL and of course Edwards AFB in CA."

Commercial air services have been around for decades, providing dramatic cost savings to the defense industry over the use of military aircraft. The difference with Draken is the vast size of the company's fleet and its unique 4th generation capabilities. This makes Draken the most credible and capable provider of adversary training, ship defense services, JTAC training and other unique mission sets."

Source: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 35142.html

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2015, 17:20
by zenith
joost wrote:New blog from Maj. Pascal Smaal, for Dutch and Pics click on the link

https://www.defensie.nl/onderwerpen/f-3 ... htsvlieger

Saturday August 29
Star Wars in the cockpit
My aviator helmet comes straight out of Star Wars. Super Cool. The plane has no head-up display anymore. All the information you need as a pilot, is simply projected on the inside of my visor. I see all kinds of tactical information on it. Consider data from my radar and various other sensors, but also the information my wingman sees with its sensors.

When it gets dark, I can project images from the infrared camera of the F-35 on my visor. These cameras give me a continuous 360 degree view around the aircraft. Everywhere I move my head, I see shades of an infrared image of the world. Also underneath the aircraft is a camera. So when I look down, I do not see my legs, but I look right through the plane. You look straight into the world beneath you.

Apart from the infrared image, I can also select a night vision filter. The same as my F-16 colleagues and other aircrews have when they fly with so-called night vision goggles. That gives me the night 360 degree view of my environment. That not only sounds very cool, but also provides optimal situational awareness at night.

The helmet is very comfortable. The inner shell is poured on my head, so it fits perfectly. In addition, the helmet is also relatively light. That is extremely important with all the G-forces generated during a flight.

There's also a built-in active noise reduction system in my helmet. This produces a sort of counter sound. This allows for example that the noise of the engines is muted. Finally, there is also the option to work with voice commands. Change radio channels or set navigation points, everything is voice-controlled. In short, the F-35 aircraft is of the 5th generation, but also the F-35 aviator helmet is ahead of its time.

Smiley


Version 3 Helmet?

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2015, 18:12
by SpudmanWP
Not likely as they (Gen 3) just entered production.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2015, 22:35
by zenith
Image

A-4M E-M Chart

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2015, 00:08
by bring_it_on
Image

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2015, 00:45
by spazsinbad
Early A-4M 1971 Performance Data 96 NATOPS pages in 48 PDF pages attached - text searchable.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2015, 06:08
by spazsinbad
In this photo we can see the two A-4Ns are not manned for the otherwise four ship sortie of ex-RNZAF Skyhawks:

http://www.edwards.af.mil/shared/media/ ... 59-004.jpg
_________________

Second photo shows the N147EM ex-USN last A-4F, ex-A4G, Ex-RNZAF A-4K Kahu now DRAKEN mentioned in the history on page one of this thread: http://www.edwards.af.mil/shared/media/ ... 59-005.jpg

HISTORY: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=27850&p=300213&hilit=N147EM#p300213

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2015, 14:25
by lamoey
Here is a video from the exercise

https://youtu.be/9rlVjCBquU0

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2015, 16:25
by eloise
zenith wrote:Image

A-4M E-M Chart

F-16 EM diagram at similar altitude
Image
i have to be honest, in my opinion the F-16 is just so so much better than A-4, it have something like 2 times the turn rate

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2015, 16:22
by spazsinbad
I do not believe this quote has been quoted before but apologies if so... YES IT HAS - in a slightly different format of translation which to me makes a lot of difference - you be the judge. Anyway go here for the other translation of same info: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=27856&p=300286&hilit=Smaal+formidable#p300286
Dutch air force testing F-35/F-16 integration
25 Aug 2015 Elmer van Hest, AIRheads/EH

"...The Dutch F-35s are part of 323 squadron and are currently based at Edwards Air Force Base in California, home of advanced military aviation testing in the US. The F-35s are used in tests alongside Arizona-based RNLAF F-16s, involving air-to-ground scenarios as well as air-to-air scenarios. “We want to experience the difference the F-35 makes in such scenarios. And I can tell you, that’s a lot”, writes Smaal in his blog. He is one of four Dutch pilots now trained to fly the new fighter.

Situational awareness in the F-35 is considerably more impressive thanks to the aircraft’s sensitive sensors. Smaal: “Even while I was still preparing for take off, I could already share this information with my formation. On another occasion, four F-16s had a hard time beating a flight of four A-4 Skyhawks. We added just one F-35 to the flight and suddenly became a hundred times more effective.”..."

Source: http://airheadsfly.com/2015/08/25/dutch ... tegration/

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2015, 05:14
by drakenintl
zero-one wrote:
eloise wrote:Anyone here have EM graph of A-4? how agile it is compare to F-16?
why did they used F-16 + F-35 vs A-4 though ? why not opposite ( F-35+ A-4 vs F-16) ? A-4 seem to have worse kinematic characteristics compared to F-16



I'd have to agree, using an A-4 is no longer tactically representative of future or even current threats.

I understand that the purpose was simply to see how the F-35 would integrate with 4th gen platforms on an operation
but the use of substandard threat equipment may give false impressions of effectiveness.

I'm happy that the Norwegians partially addressed the maneuverability issue with the F-35A but I don't understand what
they mean by "the F-35 is slightly more robust".

He was talking about weight, so maybe what he meant was that the F-35 was less likely to be affected by turbulence or such


A-4 no longer tactically representative of future or current threats? Substandard threat equipment?

What are you talking about? If you didn't notice, the most numerous adversary aircraft in the United States is a T-38 that does not have a radar, EA/EW or even a CATM missile. The T-38 also runs out of gas in about 30 minutes and can't turn. The Draken A-4K's have the same radar that is in the F-16A, RWR, countermeasures, 1553 databus for EA/EW pods and CATM missiles. The endurance is nearly 3 hours and very maneuverable. There is a reason that the Navy kept them as an adversary aircraft for so long.

As far as tactically relevant is concerned, look at all the hot spot regions of the world and the aircraft they are flying. Mig-21's, Mig-23's and Mig-29A's, most of which have equal or less sensor capability to the A-4K.

Sorry to be defensive, I just thought that commentary was way off base.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2015, 05:17
by drakenintl
MD wrote:
zero-one wrote:
I'd have to agree, using an A-4 is no longer tactically representative of future or even current threats.


Meh. I can see the A-4 for WVR representation of L-39 style threats or possibly the few remaining MiG-17 variants around. Doesn't hurt for some good dissimilar work.



Then you don't know the performance of an A-4 relative to an L-39 or Mig-17. We actually have operated all of those types series you listed. The L-39 and Mig-17 are good for airshows. The A-4 is very capable. Look up the thrust-to-weight ratios, endurance, sensor capabilities, armament, etc of an A-4K vs the other aircraft mentioned.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2015, 05:23
by drakenintl
For everyone interested in the EM equations, it should be noted that this exercise was not about BFM abilities. The objective was interoperability of F-35 and F-16 working against radar and EW-equipped adversaries. If this was about BFM, we would have sent up slicked down A-4N's that can be 1:1 on half-internal fuel. The A-4N motor has 17% more thrust than the A-4K.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2015, 06:00
by spazsinbad
Thanks 'drakenintl'. Are you the DRAKEN historian? I have been meaning to send the link to my A4G PDF history info to that person but had forgotten (a suggestion from an old USN A-4 warbird pilot who visits Draken suggested I do same). Do you have a link to that 'Draken A-4 Historian' please. My info is about the SIX ex-A4Gs [three original build A4Gs & three second-hand A-4Fs modified to A4G] etc. that ended up at DRAKEN (modified as you have pointed out by the Kiwis). TIA. Microsoft OneDrive: https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd63d6 ... =822839791 (have to register for free to see the free files to download) same as on GoogleDrive: https://drive.google.com/?authuser=0#fo ... 0szeVJFY0U BOTH 'SpazSinbad' pages.

On page one of this thread an example: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=27850&p=300213&hilit=Vietnam#p300213

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2015, 11:22
by spazsinbad
Going Skinny
Oct 2015 Mark Ayton

"...During August, BK-01 participated in a series of high-end multinational COMAOs (Combined Air Operations) involving four F-16s, two F-35s, a KDC-10 tanker and four different types of surface-to-air missile systems. Six aircraft were from the Royal Netherlands Air Force: four F-16s detached to Edwards from the detachment at Arizona Air National Guard’s 162nd Wing based at Tucson International Airport, the KDC-10 tanker and a single F-35A. Red Air adversaries for each mission were provided by contractor-operated A-4 Skyhawk fighters.

The fifth-generation F-35s provided fighter escort for the F-16s, but the Dutch F-35A hosted the strategic picture of the battle space and fed the data to the strikers. Host is a tactical term that refers to target identification and placing those targets on the link for handover to the strikers.

The F-35s entered the target area despite the presence of the SA-2 Guideline, SA-6 Gainful and SA-8 Gecko surface-to-air missiles due to their low-observable credentials. This kind of target ingress is colloquially known as ‘going in skinny’.

The boss explained: “We were able to shape the battle space and find targets by using the synthetic aperture radar [SAR] mode. We were linking those back to the F-16s and taking out pop-up threats so the F-16s could go in and strike the targets we’d identified. At the same time we were spinning roles, suppressing any regenerated aircraft [the A-4s] that were coming up, and then we led the F-16s out of the area. It was a proper fourth and fifth-gen integration trial.

“Integration between F-35 and F-16 was impressive and, in some areas, above our aspirations.” Wg Cdr Beck was also surprised at the number of targets he was able to host. In late August the BK-01 flew signature trials, a part of the Joint Strike Fighter programme against the UK’s rig of sensors called Robocop. This was 17 Squadron’s first full data-gathering trial. The aircraft was flown against the rig in important profiles and regimes of flight. “That’s at the cutting edge of research and the development of the tactics,” said Wg Cdr Beck...."

Source: Air International OCTOBER 2015 Vol.89 No.4

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2015, 22:15
by spazsinbad
Draken International Awarded United States Air Force Commercial "Adversary" Contract
30 Sep 2015 DRAKEN PR

LAKELAND, Fla., Sept. 30, 2015 /PRNewswire/ — Draken International, the leading provider of 4th-generation tactical flight services, has been contracted to provide adversary support for the United States Air Force. Flying the industry's most advanced Douglas A-4K Skyhawk and Aero Vodochody L-159E ALCA fighter jets, Draken is able to replicate numerous types of threat aircraft. Draken aircraft are equipped with modern radars, electronic attack pods, and are operated by highly-skilled reserve and former-military professionals. This unique service will result in considerable cost savings for the USAF and preserves military assets, such as F-16s and F-15s, while still achieving necessary training.

The Draken-operated A-4K Skyhawks and L-159E ALCAs are uniquely configured to meet USAF adversary support requirements. This includes modern fire-control radars, counter-measures, HUD, HOTAS, training missiles, long endurance, low operating costs, and other advanced avionics that are relevant to the adversary mission. The A-4K Skyhawk and L-159E ALCA were engineered to have the reliability and efficiency of a 3rd-generation aircraft, but equipped with the sensors and sophistication of a 4th-generation fighter jet.

"We are excited to begin delivering a professional, safe, and highly-capable aggressor service to the United States Air Force. Personally, I am really looking forward to integrating with and complementing the USAF Nellis-based aggressors. They have served this essential mission for a long time and are some of the finest in the world," expressed Col. Terry "Stretch" Scott, a recently-retired USAF F-22 pilot and Nellis Detachment Commander for Draken International....

...The fiscal environment has resulted in significantly constrained defense budgets on a global level. In order to achieve readiness, militaries around the world are turning to innovative solutions to achieve training objectives. This adversary contract for the USAF is just one example of several cost-saving solutions Draken is able to provide using commercially-operated fighter aircraft. Draken was also recently contracted to perform international air-to-air threat simulation for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter at Edwards Air Force Base. Other Draken missions include research and development, flight instruction to military students, Navy ship defense training, and other cost-saving services using the company's fleet of tactical fighter aircraft...."

Source: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 51632.html

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 05 Nov 2015, 15:51
by spazsinbad
Fourteen page PDF attached about DRAKEN and Discovery Air Defence Aircraft including A-4s with DRAKEN operating the Ex-South Pacific Skyhawks as noted above and elsewhere on this forum. DRAKEN six pages have info about the Dutch F-35s. Photos attached are from this section of the attached PDF from Combat Aircraft Monthly December 2015.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2015, 07:15
by spazsinbad
This video was posted recently on the 'A4G' thread about range elsewhere but maybe worthwhile here also. 'T-Bird' is old USN and then RAN FAA slang for the Trainer Two Seater Skyhawk. So by mid 1984 'daddy has tooken the T-bird away'. :roll:


Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2015, 23:52
by spazsinbad
Video also repeated on Skyhawk thread but relevant here also. KAHU update info to A-4K c.1989. The New 'not available before' Air to Air Radar is said to be F-16 equivalent. Lots of other goodies including a HUD explained.

A-4K KAHU RNZAF Skyhawk Aircraft 1989 Upgrade 34m46s


Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2015, 04:31
by spazsinbad
A-4K KAHU new front cockpit. & from flightglobular back in the day... & TA-4K view (formerly TA4G 880 now at FAAM).

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2015, 07:48
by spazsinbad
Skyhawk RNZAF A-4K Kahu (ex-A4G Royal Australian Navy Fleet Air Arm) DRAKEN 2014 excerpt from corporate video.

Note the reason 'why my probe is bent sir' - see the fuel gush from the shuttlecock when the TA-4K Kahu disconnects.

2014 DRAKEN ex-A4G RAN FAA ex-A-4K Kahu RNZAF Skyhawks


Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2016, 05:15
by spazsinbad
Good explanation about the KAHU 'F-16like' update and what it means to USAF these days of reduced aircraft availability.
Former RAN Skyhawks at Nellis, 2015
ON THE ROGER Published on Dec 17, 2015

"Vid by Nellis AFB, USAF.
Read more at http://ontheroger.proboards.com


Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2016, 05:59
by Corsair1963
My office is just a short distance from Draken International. Yet, I've never seen them fly out of Lakeland Regional Airport???

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2016, 07:32
by johnwill
Does that gushing fuel ever cause a problem if it goes into the inlet?

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2016, 07:37
by spazsinbad
'JW' sure does - one reason why the A-4 probe became bent (thru mod or manufacture) from about 1971. Several A-4s were lost when fuel from ARF (AirReFuel) went down the right engine intake - fuelling not always from a Skyhawk buddy tanker system. What is seen in the video looks at the top of the range for a wet refuel - most of my plugs-ins were dry. Our A4Gs were not modified until early 1972 or thereabouts - I have used the straight and bent probe. Probably we practiced only/mostly dry due to the issue of fuel down intake before bent probe came along. Early Skyhawks with straight probes pioneered the buddy tanker system.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2016, 08:29
by KamenRiderBlade
Spaz, if you had the opportunity to fly the newest A-4's one last time, even in a trainer model where you had a younger guy supervising you on the avionics; would you do it?

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2016, 08:37
by spazsinbad
FOR REALS?! Mid-December I was emergency hospitalised with bi-lateral heart failure. In six days I recovered well and I'm now on medication and long-term monitoring of the condition; which is likely to worsen as the years roll-on, so I think your dream for me is - unlikely at age 67. I blame the catapult - that was one times one hundred plus punches in the chest - at 6G - I did not need; but others MMV. However for someone fit enough that ride sounds cool - I can always visualise. In fact we were (or I was) taught that method in RAAF advanced flying training in the Vampire '68 (before 'visualisation' was a buzzword later) by a really switched on jet instructor - it helped me get to the A4G for sure & I'm most grateful. :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2016, 08:42
by KamenRiderBlade
spazsinbad wrote:FOR REALS?! Mid-December I was emergency hospitalised with bi-lateral heart failure. In six days I recovered well and I'm now on medication and long-term monitoring of the condition; which is likely to worsen as the years roll-on, so I think your dream for me is - unlikely at age 67. I blame the catapult - that was one times one hundred plus punches in the chest - at 6G - I did not need; but others MMV. However for someone fit enough that ride sounds cool - I can always visualise. In fact we were (or I was) taught that method in RAAF advanced flying training in the Vampire '68 (before 'visualisation' was a buzzword later) by a really switched on jet instructor - it helped me get to the A4G for sure & I'm most grateful. :mrgreen:

::Gives you a big hug:: I hope you are ok & healthier now.

What I would give to have modern medicine use Stem Cell technology to regrow a natural Heart from your Stem Cells and give you a heart that is equivalent to the 20 year old you so you can live another 60+ years without issues.

Then eventually replace all the other organs that might have issues.

You deserve it for all your hard work.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2016, 08:50
by spazsinbad
YEAH thanks - the diagnosis sounds dramatic and of course there are degrees. I had so much fluid in my lungs that I could barely breathe - hence the call for an ambulance - with excess fluid in my lower limbs and torso causing dramatic tissue swelling. Since then I have lost 15Kg - mostly this excess fluid (1 litre fluid equals 1kg). This fluid usually is rid by a good functioning heart. When one side not working then fluid in lungs, the other side in lower limbs etc. I had double whammy. An angiogram in hospital showed some slight plaque build up in arteries but can be managed by medication and a strict fluid intake of 1.2 litre per day - reduced salt intake - and it is working. Sadly my family history not good - father, older brother dead from their first heart attack. I have outlived them by some 15-20 years so far.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2016, 08:54
by popcorn
spazsinbad wrote:FOR REALS?! Mid-December I was emergency hospitalised with bi-lateral heart failure. In six days I recovered well and I'm now on medication and long-term monitoring of the condition; which is likely to worsen as the years roll-on, so I think your dream for me is - unlikely at age 67. I blame the catapult - that was one times one hundred plus punches in the chest - at 6G - I did not need; but others MMV. However for someone fit enough that ride sounds cool - I can always visualise. In fact we were (or I was) taught that method in RAAF advanced flying training in the Vampire '68 (before 'visualisation' was a buzzword later) by a really switched on jet instructor - it helped me get to the A4G for sure & I'm most grateful. :mrgreen:


Were these hydraulic cats Spaz? I'd read somewhere they packed a meaner punch than steam. Anyway, happy to see you weathered the storm.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2016, 08:56
by KamenRiderBlade
popcorn wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:FOR REALS?! Mid-December I was emergency hospitalised with bi-lateral heart failure. In six days I recovered well and I'm now on medication and long-term monitoring of the condition; which is likely to worsen as the years roll-on, so I think your dream for me is - unlikely at age 67. I blame the catapult - that was one times one hundred plus punches in the chest - at 6G - I did not need; but others MMV. However for someone fit enough that ride sounds cool - I can always visualise. In fact we were (or I was) taught that method in RAAF advanced flying training in the Vampire '68 (before 'visualisation' was a buzzword later) by a really switched on jet instructor - it helped me get to the A4G for sure & I'm most grateful. :mrgreen:


Were these hydraulic cats Spaz? I'd read somewhere they packed a meaner punch than steam. Anyway, happy to see you weathered the storm.

Is it safe to assume EMALS cat launches will be easier on future pilots than Steam catapult launches?

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2016, 09:03
by spazsinbad
'popcorn' the MELBOURNE catapult was a 90 foot stroke beginning of A4G era but lengthened by 10 feet with installation of the strop catcher two years later (by my time). The steam drove the A4G at about between 5-6G for less than two seconds, depending on conditions at launch. The A-4 was built to a 9G transverse limit for the catapult and our A4G could be launched by the steam catapult in nil wind in hot South China Sea conditions at max all up weight; but never done on an A4G - deadweight launches (CHLOE) only. It was the last resort 'warshot' and it would have been BRUTAL - but short.

Yes 'krb' the EMALS will be kinder to everyone AND a 300 foot USN CVN cat stroke makes a difference. This phrase may be found online: "...HMAS MELBOURNE’s records show that there had been 8,834 A-4 Skyhawk launches since 1969...." The last A4G (lost 885) was only a few cats later & that was the end in late 1980 for A4G/MELBOURNE catapulting for all time.

http://www.adf-messageboard.com.au/invb ... topic=2428 [on this forum my name is 'luig' 2nd & last RANFAA nickname]

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2016, 09:26
by tincansailor
spazsinbad wrote:YEAH thanks - the diagnosis sounds dramatic and of course there are degrees. I had so much fluid in my lungs that I could barely breathe - hence the call for an ambulance - with excess fluid in my lower limbs and torso causing dramatic tissue swelling. Since then I have lost 15Kg - mostly this excess fluid (1 litre fluid equals 1kg). This fluid usually is rid by a good functioning heart. When one side not working then fluid in lungs, the other side in lower limbs etc. I had double whammy. An angiogram in hospital showed some slight plaque build up in arteries but can be managed by medication and a strict fluid intake of 1.2 litre per day - reduced salt intake - and it is working. Sadly my family history not good - father, older brother dead from their first heart attack. I have outlived them by some 15-20 years so far.


I'm deeply sorry to hear about your troubles. Your in my prayers my friend. I've had similar problems with fluid retention, I was in the hospital for 11 days this summer because of an infection, and they found I had a lot of fluid that needed to come out. I thought I was finally gaining weight. With Lasix medications I peed it out. Like you they told me to watch both fluid and salt. Please take care of yourself, the world is a better place with you in it.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2016, 09:53
by spazsinbad
Thanks 'tcs' and earlier 'pop' and best wishes for your health also. Yes LASIX (Frusemide & other names) is the trick although at beginning in hospital I had a catheter inserted also to get it out - painlessly - thank you emergency nurse - all good. :mrgreen: The bag was 'fun' but only in hospital where 10 Kg lost. Now I take two LASIX per day and pee a lot. Probably more info than anyone needs but youse old geezers need to know. 'Heart attacks' seem to be general knowledge but not symptoms for 'heart failure' - I was bemused by swelling and thought I had a bad chest cold with the wheezing - especially at night - and eventually I could not sleep with the fluid build up etc. Sitting or standing breathing was not easy either.

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2016, 22:43
by basher54321
spazsinbad wrote:FOR REALS?! Mid-December I was emergency hospitalised with bi-lateral heart failure. In six days I recovered well and I'm now on medication and long-term monitoring of the condition; which is likely to worsen as the years roll-on, so I think your dream for me is - unlikely at age 67.


Very sad to hear Spaz - hope you can stay strong. ( no don't know what its like but I'm sure it will hit me one day)

Re: F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2016, 00:04
by spazsinbad
Thanks 'basher' - it is worthwhile researching miljet pilots age conditions. I had 'heart attack' in mind but knew nothing about 'heart failure' - worth a look up to catch it early - rather than later as I found out to my dismay (see earlier posts).