F-35 Supersonic Dash comparable to the F-22 (Theory)

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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quicksilver

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Unread post20 Aug 2015, 12:56

SpudmanWP wrote:I choose to believe that since there was no detailed CONTEXT to either quote, they BOTH can be right in their own way.


Knock yourself out...
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borg

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Unread post20 Aug 2015, 13:32

Reading that article..
What the hell is minimum burner? ?

You eighter engage AB or you don't!
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optimist

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Unread post20 Aug 2015, 13:45

perhaps you should google about the afterburner, it's impressive.
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sferrin

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Unread post20 Aug 2015, 14:27

borg wrote:Reading that article..
What the hell is minimum burner? ?

You eighter engage AB or you don't!


Maybe back in 1947. Things have change a bit since then. A really good example is the opening shot of Top Gun where they show the F-14 on the catapult running through the TF30s afterburner "zones".
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JetTest

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Unread post20 Aug 2015, 14:40

Borg, an example, the F100-PW-229 afterburner is 11 stages. Granted, the operation is so smooth you cannot notice incremental steps, but the fact remains it is an 11 stage system.
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borg

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Unread post20 Aug 2015, 14:43

So does that mean you have 11 different throttle setting in AB?
Surly not..

Edit:
What i'm talking about is the Throttle setting..
The article make it sound like the pilot have several choosing of AB
Last edited by borg on 20 Aug 2015, 14:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post20 Aug 2015, 14:47

Here is an example of googling 'bout de engyn: Powering the Lightning II viewtopic.php?f=56&t=25691
Powering the Lightning II
April 2012 Chris Kjelgaard

"......Another key feature of the F135 is its augmentor, or afterburner system. While available details of the augmentor are sketchy, the F135 is known to employ multi-zone (probably three-zone) fuel injection aft of the afterburner’s pilot light. These zones inject fuel independently, so that the afterburner does not act in an all-or-nothing way but instead provides a variable range of additional, smoothly transitioning wet thrust at the pilot’s command. Also, like the F119 augmentor, the F135 augmentor is stealthy: The design of the two engines’ augmentors places multi-zone fuel injection into curved vanes which eliminate conventional spray bars and flame holders and block the line of sight to the turbine when looking into the engine from behind...."

Source: http://militaryrussia.ru/forum/download ... p?id=28256 (14Mb)

6 page PDF ARTICLE available HERE: Engine F135 & LiftFan STOVL F-35LightningII pp6ed.pdf

download/file.php?id=19133 (1.5Mb PDF)
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quicksilver

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Unread post20 Aug 2015, 15:02

borg wrote:So does that mean you have 11 different throttle setting in AB?
Surly not..

Edit:
What i'm talking about is the Throttle setting..
The article make it sound like the pilot have several choosing of AB


At the end of throttle travel at the 'mil' position there is a detent, or gate, through which additional forward movement engages (lights-off) the afterburner. Movement beyond the detent progressively provides more thrust by injecting (and burning) more fuel in the oxygen-rich mixed flows of bypass air and main engine exhaust. Progressively more fuel... progressively more thrust, up to the end of throttle travel.

When a pilot talks about 'min burner' it means the throttle position is just slightly beyond the detent/gate. He/she is getting a significant thrust increase (albeit with more fuel flow) but he/she is not dumping mass amounts of fuel into the ab as would be the case at max.
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borg

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Unread post20 Aug 2015, 15:14

That explaind it, thx.
So the F119 has the very same AB function?
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Unread post20 Aug 2015, 15:22

Some Engyn Engyneering Stuff about the F135 from this incomprehensible URL but attached for youse:

Joint Strike Fighter Dual-Cycle Propulsion
24 March 2014 Brad Wheatley

Source: http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 4247,d.dGY
Attachments
F135 Presentation - Brad Wheatley.pdf
(1.85 MiB) Downloaded 495 times
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Unread post20 Aug 2015, 15:31

The 'active stick and throttle' has been mentioned elsewhere on this forum (standby to standby for URL) but anyway here is a bit from: SEARCH FORUM using 'Krumenacker' for several mentions
ACTIVE STICK & THROTTLE FOR F-35
16 Oct 2008Joseph Krumenacker NAVAIR Flight Controls / JSF Vehicle Systems

"...Throttle:
Variable aft & forward end-stops (e.g. STOVL mode is different from CTOL mode)
– AB gate (when STOVL system is not deployed)
– Launch gate (CV only)
– STOVL center detent (zero commanded acceleration)
– STOVL on-ground power braking force gradient
– Back-drive
• Auto-Throttle Approach (all variants)
• STOVL Decel-to-Hover"

Source: http://www.csdy.umn.edu/acgsc/mtg102/SubcommitteD/F35 AIS Krumenacker SAE 081016.ppt (13.8Mb)

1Mb PDF made from PPT here: download/file.php?id=19248
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geforcerfx

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Unread post20 Aug 2015, 16:11

hasn't multi stage after burner been around for awhile on the Teen series fighters?
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basher54321

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Unread post20 Aug 2015, 19:19

geforcerfx wrote:hasn't multi stage after burner been around for awhile on the Teen series fighters?


The AB on the 1950s production J79 (F-104 etc) was classed as modulated / variable - more than a simple on/off - seems to be a similar concept.
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cantaz

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Unread post20 Aug 2015, 21:58

I do recall reading, I think it was in the AF Magazine, that the F-35's supersonic dash is essentially how long it takes the aircraft to slow from Mach 1.2 to subsonic at mil power.

So supercruise at the end of SDD? No, since it can't maintain a fixed speed at mil.

But if it's "very minimal AB", then actual supercruise (even if it's slower than the F-22) is quite likely provided that future thrust improvements outpaces weight growth.
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optimist

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Unread post21 Aug 2015, 01:40

well the f-22 must slow down quicker :shock: as it has a much smaller dash distance
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