6 F-35s land on Wasp for testing

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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quicksilver

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Unread post13 Jun 2015, 22:27

The neglect is with NAVSEA and NAVAIR for allowing these 'will melt the flight deck' myths to persist.

"...still has not attended an international airshow...". :wtf: I bet he'd like to take that one back.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post13 Jun 2015, 23:57

Perhaps this quote was a half-hearted VERY LATE attempt by 'Navy documents' to quash the 1,700 deg A/B on concrete myth (only inches from it mind).

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=26544&p=280077&hilit=Thermal#p280077
"...Heat and stress continue to be priority problems for the aircraft. The F-35B creates 10-20 sec. of thermal input - 400-500F exhaust - during landings, Navy documents show, apparently requiring a 12 X 12-ft. steel plate 1-in. thick for specific primary landing spots to dissipate intense heat and prevent deck warping. There also is concern about "built-up thermal loading with multiple close-sequence landings."..."

Source: 13 OCT 2014 AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY; DEFENSE TECHNOLOGY INTERNATIONAL
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gergf-14

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Unread post14 Jun 2015, 08:38

Your highness Spaz,

Could The F-35B then land on the normal US carriers over the blast deflectors without causing warping or melting for that matter...?
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spazsinbad

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Unread post14 Jun 2015, 09:01

:devil: Thanks for the :poke: curtsy :mrgreen: There is no problem landing on a steel flight deck that can take conventional aircraft... HOWEVER the non-skid coating on that deck may be discoloured or slightly damaged that one time because it all depends on the state of the non-skid prior to the vertical landing. Have a look at a CVN flight deck after a few days/weeks/months of flight ops to see it gets 'damaged' in various places (there are pics on the THERMION thread) but that is tolerated within limits and then the CVN non-skid is replaced.

JBDs have nothing to do with anything regarding the F-35B. IF someone wanted to land an F-35B on the horizontal JBD - accurately - then good luck to them. Otherwise the steel CVN deck is not going to be affected UNLESS (we have been told regarding LHAs without upgrades) sequential VLs by many aircraft are carried out over the same spot (remembering the F-35B can be landed reliably with the nosewheel in the same 1 foot square box). AND that is only my guess because no one is thinking of doing that AFAIK.

What the dear reporters are inaccurately reporting is that THERMION is protecting the deck. IT IS NOT. Thermion is protecting itself from the potential heat damage and as 'QuickSilver' has pointed out THERMIOn does that by quickly transferring the heat energy into the steel deck - thus preserving itself and the non-skid qualities required. AND THERMION lasts a lot longer than conventional non-skid so it is not going to be replaced with same frequency thus saving money over the claimed ten year life span. But we have to wait ten years - OK?

You could search the F-35 forum for 'deck' then search the results for 'skid' to get four pages of goodness or go here for example:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=16306&p=207001&hilit=deck+skid#p207001
&
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=24053&p=254040&hilit=deck+skid#p254040 (quicksilver on THERMION)

The PDF from whence came the pic below is no longer available shows 'wear pattern' under target wire or a wire?

https://www.corrdefense.org/Academia%20 ... onSkid.pdf

AND go here for some goodness graciousmeness: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=12631&p=272773&hilit=Tricou#p272773
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WearPatternLandingAreaUSNcarrier.jpg
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quicksilver

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Unread post14 Jun 2015, 12:45

"Could The F-35B then land on the normal US carriers over the blast deflectors without causing warping or melting for that matter...?"

JBDs on CVN are to protect personnel and other aircraft from the effects of jet engine thrust blowing horizontally behind an aircraft running at mil power or AB during the run-up and early portion of a catapult stroke. Doesn't have anything to do with where one would VL an F-35B.

WASP had no warping (much less 'melting' :roll:) of the flight deck whilst landing F-35Bs during DT-1. CVN flight deck is much thicker (like, 2x).

Thermion is simply a more durable non-skid; the deck mods are for the long term durability of the structure. Saves money in the long term.
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Unread post14 Jun 2015, 16:24

Thanks Spaz,

The pic shows third wire wear and tear no heat or spalling of coating.

Is Thermion a containment or solution?

JBDs are water cooled or just air cooled ??

I understand for already built ships, but why not cool things by running liquid of sorts below the deck,

The decks have a spray system already why not utilize further..??

Quicksilver thank for the abc's of JBD :doh:
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quicksilver

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Unread post14 Jun 2015, 20:31

Thermion is a more durable non-skid.

JBDs are water-cooled.

Why don't you read up on the deck heating/Thermion thread, and then come back when you're ready to ask intelligent questions.
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Unread post14 Jun 2015, 21:08

quicksilver wrote:"Could The F-35B then land on the normal US carriers over the blast deflectors without causing warping or melting for that matter...?"

JBDs on CVN are to protect personnel and other aircraft from the effects of jet engine thrust blowing horizontally behind an aircraft running at mil power or AB during the run-up and early portion of a catapult stroke. Doesn't have anything to do with where one would VL an F-35B.


He was asking because he knows what they're designed for.

quicksilver wrote:Why don't you read up on the deck heating/Thermion thread, and then come back when you're ready to ask intelligent questions.


Coming from someone who cannot even understand a basic question or the reasoning behind such a question.
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Unread post14 Jun 2015, 22:56

The point of the wear pattern pic was to show that conventional non-skid is not so durable when read with the pointers/URLs given - also a special non-skid is under the wires/landing area on a CVN. THERMION is said to last ten years so even if more expensive there will be savings over the decade - don't know if a special THERMION would be required under the wires/landing area on a CVN. Read the threads to see how complicated applying conventional non-skid can be.
'gergf-14' asked: "Is Thermion a containment or solution?

THERMION is a non-skid application over a slippery steel flight deck. It is a solution to skidding unnecessarily on a wet or moving flight deck. What do you mean by 'containment'? [act of controlling or limiting something harmful?] THERMION is non-skid so it limits this tendency for aircraft/personnel to skid. THERMION is much more long lasting and able to resist the effects of the F-35Bs particularly, as described. And yes - how about reading the threads? You will find answers to all your questions. Perhaps you do not comprehend that the cycle of steel plate heating and cooling is the issue, whilst probably sudden water cooling of the deck surface is not good for this cycle and exacerbates this 'SKIDDING' effect with the wet deck. NavAv have been on slippery moving flight decks for donkey ages and know what they require.
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Unread post15 Jun 2015, 17:46

gergf-14 wrote:Your highness Spaz,

Could The F-35B then land on the normal US carriers over the blast deflectors without causing warping or melting for that matter...?

I'm ignorant, but if you're imagining landing with the tail end of the Bee over the JBD (which is the only way I can picture it working), then won't the angle of the JBD push the hot engine exhaust towards the front of the jet? Wouldn't it create a greater chance of hot air ingestion, basically defeating the "curtain" of cold air that the lift fan generates which prevents that?

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Unread post15 Jun 2015, 18:01

hurricaneditka wrote:
gergf-14 wrote:Your highness Spaz,

Could The F-35B then land on the normal US carriers over the blast deflectors without causing warping or melting for that matter...?

I'm ignorant, but if you're imagining landing with the tail end of the Bee over the JBD (which is the only way I can picture it working), then won't the angle of the JBD push the hot engine exhaust towards the front of the jet? Wouldn't it create a greater chance of hot air ingestion, basically defeating the "curtain" of cold air that the lift fan generates which prevents that?



JBDs fold flat (flush with the deck) when not in use.
Kind of like the trunk of your car folds down flat when it's not in use.
Daddy why do we have to hide? Because we use VI son, and they use windows.
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Unread post15 Jun 2015, 18:59

Picture this: FORGET ABOUT THE JBD - however as 'archeman' says it can be FLAT flush with the flight deck and like any other suitable landing spot on CVN flight deck. 'hurricaneditka' STOP IMAGINING BullDustFlyingAbout! You will feel better.
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Unread post16 Jun 2015, 21:25

OT-1 Successful
02 Jun 2015 CODE ONE

"...During the evaluation, ten pilots from Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 121 (VMFA-121) at MCAS Yuma, Arizona, and Marine Fighter Attack Training Squadron 501 (VMFAT-501) at MCAS Beaufort, South Carolina, flew 85.5 hours on 108 sorties. Three pilots qualified for night operations.... Thermion coatings applied to the deck of the Wasp to make it more resilient to engine exhaust during vertical landings..." [IF only it was made clear that the THERMION is protecting itself - the non-skid deck coating - not the deck, then all would be well in THERMIONland]

Source: http://www.codeonemagazine.com/news_ite ... em_id=1418
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gergf-14

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Unread post16 Jun 2015, 22:16

:bang: sometimes things need to be drawn and colored in,

i see thermion as a non skid with positive heat protection benefits, but i see under the surface cooling more long term for the deck structure,

ie deck has plumbing already under the surface for the sprinkler system, why not use it as a under the surface cooling system then the F35Bees can land on most landing points.

JBD's are an example of an solution and not an containment which i see thermion, makes sense for already in service ships,
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Unread post16 Jun 2015, 22:43

'gergf-14' do you wish to dispute what has been reiterated many times now - not only on this thread but elsewhere - as indicated on this thread? THERMION is a non-skid coating to the deck. THERMION acts as a non-skid coat and nothing else. THERMION transmits heat more readily to the steel deck than does conventional (currently in use) non-skid deck coatings (that are not THERMION) so how does that equate to your "...i see thermion as a non skid with positive heat protection benefits..." TO WHAT is protection given? Protection is provided by THERMION to itself - to resist hot exhausts and to last longer, much longer, than conventional non-skid coatings.

A sprinkler system is providing water in an emergency thus flooding the compartments in which it is switched on. How does this help? You do not seem to understand that a fix is provided by the experts involved. Extra steel plates are put 'between the ribs) under the landing spots that require this fix. Simple huh. No plumbing modifications required. No flooding of compartments and on and on.

Please explain what you mean by this sentence:
"...JBD's are an example of an solution and not an containment which i see thermion, makes sense for already in service ships,"
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