6 F-35s land on Wasp for testing

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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sferrin

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Unread post29 May 2015, 00:01

bring_it_on wrote:
:bang: ....it just frustrates me. It seems like he should know better, but is just playing dumb to spread FUD.


It sells..Plus he is an international editor. Throughout his career he has taken pot shots at the US services and even US made systems. He just kicks it up a notch when it comes to his forum posts. Also, have you heard any AvWeek podcast where he doesn't bring up SAAB? He could have been talking about ice-cream and he'll manage to bring up the Gripen.

Years back he had an article basically taking an opposition to the USMC's existence (he used something like - "The US Navy's, army has its own air-force")..I have it saved somewhere, i'll try to dig it up.



He's stated on several occasions that he fears the success of the F-35 will mean the end of European fighter development. We all know he can drink tea with the best of them, so you can draw your own conclusions as to his impartiality and objectivity.
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Unread post29 May 2015, 00:03

spazsinbad wrote:It is strange about the F135 engines. LM say that the A & C are the same with same reference number on their 'fast fact sheets' for a very long time now. There have been a few debates on this forum about what ANY differences might be for the A & C variant engines and even though some wisdom says that some parts of the 'same as the A' C engine have been buttressed against sea water corrosion, it makes sense to me to just make the A/C engines the same, after all we see photos of the washdowns at Eglin AFB of the A version after landing. Having the same engines in the A/C variants must save money during manufacture? About whether the five modules are interchangeable I would guess that they are but that is all it is - a guess. And as pointed out the B variant needs the LiftFan components.

F-35 Lightning II Program Status and Fast Facts April 23, 2015
https://www.f35.com/assets/uploads/down ... 2q2015.pdf (75Kb)

(also attached in this forum) download/file.php?id=20547



I'm curious about the accuracy of those thrust ratings as it's generally given as 43k, has been given as 48k more than once, and P&W themselves are on record as saying it's run at over 50k. :?
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Unread post29 May 2015, 00:06

I'm not suggesting anything other than there is a lot of obsfucation about the F135 which I can conclude is deliberate. The LM Fast Facts do say that the thrust ratings are for uninstalled engines - that would be the case for test engines also.
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Unread post29 May 2015, 00:27

‘In Hands Of The Professionals:’ F-35Bs On The USS Wasp [PLENTY MORE AT THE URL]
28 May 2015 Robbin Laird

"...The professionals he had in mind are maintainers from three squadrons, the Green Knights (Yuma), the Warlords (Beaufort) and VMX-22 (New River). The ship’s executive officer (XO), Capt. Andrew “Mongo” Smith, highlighted the ability of a 25-year-old ship to become part of fifth generation warfare and operate the F-35 showed the flexibility of both the ship and the Navy-Marine Corps team.

One of the Marine pilots involved with the ship integration-testing said:

“No one in the world has ever sent an airplane off of an amphibious ship with this level of situational awareness and fusion between aircraft to aircraft and aircraft to ship. The fusion of the data aboard the airplanes and your ability to see what other planes are seeing a number of miles away from you, as well as what the ship is seeing, and then to be able to communicate with them without using the radio is a tactical and strategic advantage that can not really be over stated.”...

...The CO of VMX-22, Col. “Horse” Rauenhorst highlighted that their work as a squadron was focusing on the integration of the Osprey, the F-35 and the new CH-53K helicopter as key elements to create a more lethal and survivable MAGTF. The infantry Marine forces can be inserted at greater distance, with greater flexibility to enhance their effectiveness and survivability. That is the whole point of the innovation being tested aboard the USS Wasp.

One aspect of the effort for ship integration of the F-35B aboard the ship was maintenance at sea. Maintainers from the three squadrons – the Green Knights from Yuma, the Warlords from Beaufort, and those from VMX-22 – worked together for the first time aboard the ship. And according to the maintainers their approach worked very well.

The report from the team aboard the ship was straightforward: “we could maintain the plane on ship very well and saw no loss of capability compared to maintaining the plane ashore.”..."

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2015/05/its- ... -uss-wasp/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post29 May 2015, 00:32

Robbin Laird also does a very good job here (posted earlier)

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Unread post29 May 2015, 00:41

spazsinbad wrote:
‘In Hands Of The Professionals:’ F-35Bs On The USS Wasp [PLENTY MORE AT THE URL]
28 May 2015 Robbin Laird

"...The professionals he had in mind are maintainers from three squadrons, the Green Knights (Yuma), the Warlords (Beaufort) and VMX-22 (New River). The ship’s executive officer (XO), Capt. Andrew “Mongo” Smith, highlighted the ability of a 25-year-old ship to become part of fifth generation warfare and operate the F-35 showed the flexibility of both the ship and the Navy-Marine Corps team.

One of the Marine pilots involved with the ship integration-testing said:

“No one in the world has ever sent an airplane off of an amphibious ship with this level of situational awareness and fusion between aircraft to aircraft and aircraft to ship. The fusion of the data aboard the airplanes and your ability to see what other planes are seeing a number of miles away from you, as well as what the ship is seeing, and then to be able to communicate with them without using the radio is a tactical and strategic advantage that can not really be over stated.”...

...The CO of VMX-22, Col. “Horse” Rauenhorst highlighted that their work as a squadron was focusing on the integration of the Osprey, the F-35 and the new CH-53K helicopter as key elements to create a more lethal and survivable MAGTF. The infantry Marine forces can be inserted at greater distance, with greater flexibility to enhance their effectiveness and survivability. That is the whole point of the innovation being tested aboard the USS Wasp.

One aspect of the effort for ship integration of the F-35B aboard the ship was maintenance at sea. Maintainers from the three squadrons – the Green Knights from Yuma, the Warlords from Beaufort, and those from VMX-22 – worked together for the first time aboard the ship. And according to the maintainers their approach worked very well.

The report from the team aboard the ship was straightforward: “we could maintain the plane on ship very well and saw no loss of capability compared to maintaining the plane ashore.”..."

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2015/05/its- ... -uss-wasp/


A terrific article.

However, I have now come to enjoy these kinds of articles as much for the entertainment value provided in the comments section. Nearly any article written about F-35...this one included...is just just chocked full of comic nuggets in the comments section. :lmao:

Rage on friends, rage on...
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Unread post29 May 2015, 01:23

Oh this'll rate with the belly below quote "...the U.S. Marine Corps, is giddy about the B version’s progress...". The good generale scowling earlier must have been giddyseasick instead? Poor bugga - what he has to upwithput.
Marines Upbeat About F-35B Wasp Trials
29 May 2015 Amy Butler | Aviation Week & Space Technology

"The first F-35 customer slated for actual operations, the U.S. Marine Corps, is giddy about the B version’s progress after a first-ever series of trials this month leading up to the operational debut of the jet—in development for 14 years—in July. But, in accordance with the tattered history of the F-35 program, any step forward is tempered by questions about the path ahead. Just as the Marines are wrapping up the first operational test (OT-1) session on the USS Wasp ..."

NO MORE ALAS - I do not subscribe to this giddiness. :doh:

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/marines ... asp-trials
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post29 May 2015, 02:21

bring_it_on wrote:
:bang: ....it just frustrates me. It seems like he should know better, but is just playing dumb to spread FUD.


It sells..Plus he is an international editor. Throughout his career he has taken pot shots at the US services and even US made systems. He just kicks it up a notch when it comes to his forum posts. Also, have you heard any AvWeek podcast where he doesn't bring up SAAB? He could have been talking about ice-cream and he'll manage to bring up the Gripen.

Years back he had an article basically taking an opposition to the USMC's existence (he used something like - "The US Navy's, army has its own air-force")..I have it saved somewhere, i'll try to dig it up.


He has to turn it up a notch on the forums under a hidden name because the last time he posted quips like that he go suspended.

That comment is probably as about as complementary as he will ever be about the usmc and jsf. He will always have his cheeky little quips. The glass will always be half full for the jsf. he has been bitter a long time but honestly he is starting to look like one of those nutters who denies the moon landing.

In the meantime bs is promoting an aircraft that is hoping to do what the Rhino already did decades ago (but is half the size at the same cost) with f-16 weight but much less thrust and not a single European export order or even a first flight yet. In the mean time the radar spins (neato!), and it won't be fully operationAL until the mid 2020s assuming everything stays on schedule and has lost in every competition that matters save for military powerhouse Brazil. But the radar spins

Bill deserves full credit for finding the truth and beING able to really find out the reAL deAL when it comes to the military. That's how he avoided Impaling himself on the aurora of course. Didn't fall into that trap.

So don't let him get to you. Laugh at him, he has earned it --And he keeps trying to top himself with each stupid comment.
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Unread post29 May 2015, 03:17

Amy Butler writes in her article -

These were among the issues discussed last week at the global F-35 CEO conference in Norway, which included participation from senior officials from each country in the partnership.


isn't the conference this weekend?
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Unread post29 May 2015, 03:23

bring_it_on wrote:Amy Butler writes in her article -

These were among the issues discussed last week at the global F-35 CEO conference in Norway, which included participation from senior officials from each country in the partnership.


isn't the conference this weekend?


Right now. Me thinks the article gets released in hard copy next week.
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Unread post29 May 2015, 03:26

spazsinbad wrote:Oh this'll rate with the belly below quote "...the U.S. Marine Corps, is giddy about the B version’s progress...". The good generale scowling earlier must have been giddyseasick instead? Poor bugga - what he has to upwithput.
Marines Upbeat About F-35B Wasp Trials
29 May 2015 Amy Butler | Aviation Week & Space Technology

"The first F-35 customer slated for actual operations, the U.S. Marine Corps, is giddy about the B version’s progress after a first-ever series of trials this month leading up to the operational debut of the jet—in development for 14 years—in July. But, in accordance with the tattered history of the F-35 program, any step forward is tempered by questions about the path ahead. Just as the Marines are wrapping up the first operational test (OT-1) session on the USS Wasp ..."

NO MORE ALAS - I do not subscribe to this giddiness. :doh:

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/marines ... asp-trials


Seems that even the ship drivers dont understand that Thermion is less effective than traditional non-skid when it comes to heat mitigation. Its primarly benefit is its long-term durability as non-skid.
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Unread post29 May 2015, 03:27

Right now. Me thinks the article gets released in hard copy next week.


Ahh Thanks. Here it is for anyone is interested.

Marines Upbeat About F-35B Wasp Trials


The first F-35 customer slated for actual operations, the U.S. Marine Corps, is giddy about the B version’s progress after a first-ever series of trials this month leading up to the operational debut of the jet—in development for 14 years—in July.

But, in accordance with the tattered history of the F-35 program, any step forward is tempered by questions about the path ahead. Just as the Marines are wrapping up the first operational test (OT-1) session on the USS Wasp amphibious ship, partners are jockeying to craft a plan for what weapons and capabilities will be included in the Block 4 version of the F-35, the most widely sought version for international customers. And, also in accordance with the F-35’s legacy, it could all come down to cost.

“Quite frankly, we are working through some of the challenges of understanding the cost associated with some of the capabilities we would like to get into the airplane,” says Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Harrigian, director of the U.S. Air Force’s F-35 Integration Office. “Ultimately, the goal will be to modernize some of our baseline systems to stay ahead of the threat. But what I foresee right now is that . . . over the course of the next couple of months [we will] really refine what we want Block 4 to look like.” This is a complex negotiation inside the Pentagon made even more complicated because the final product will include inputs from each of the eight other developmental partners.These were among the issues discussed last week at the global F-35 CEO conference in Norway, which included participation from senior officials from each country in the partnership.

Meanwhile, the Marines and F-35 program officials are reviewing results from the OT-1 event May 18-29. Six F-35Bs—four Block 2B and two Block 3i—from VMFA-121 and VMFAT-501 were used for the trials, which were designed to assess needs for procedures for the F-35B operating on the small-deck amphibious ship leading up to the initial operational capability (IOC) declaration slated for July.

The six jets embarked without trouble, the Marines say. The pilots were uniformed Marines, some newly trained to operate the F-35. Most of them conducted their first ship landing when embarking for the trials.

The Marines put on a dazzling display after a select group of media embarked May 26 on the Wasp to witness the day’s work. Multiple F-35Bs conducted short takeoffs, executed the pattern (one partial loop around to the back of the ship) and lined up for a vertical landing. The media saw this in earlier developmental test events. The difference this time was that multiple jets were doing this in succession, a demonstration of a cadence never before seen for the F-35B on the small-deck ship. It was notable that the crew was able to consistently command taxi, takeoff, flyaround, landing and maneuvers on the deck. Also included in this series was landing and takeoff of the Seahawk search-and-rescue support helicopter and a hot refuel of an F-35B. This hardly mirrors the diversity and demands of an entire air wing on deck, but it was a substantial step forward for the young fighter’s ability to operate at sea.

Two previous trials—Developmental Test-1 and DT-2—on the Wasp were run by developmental overseers. For the first time, USMC operators were overseeing ops in OT-1; this includes pilots as well as maintainers and deck handlers.

The Corps is assessing how many F-35s will comprise future Marine Expeditionary Units (MEU). In question is what will be the aviation mix for the future, including the V-22, new CH-53Ks, unmanned aircraft and the AH-1Z. For now, six were used as a representative sample for OT-1, says Lt. Gen. Jon Davis, Marine Corps deputy commandant for aviation, who attended the trials with the media during tests off North Carolina. As the first customer to declare F-35 IOC, the Marines have repeatedly said this event is a start, not an end state. Additional DTs will follow as more capability is introduced into service, officials say. The first squadron to declare IOC will be VMFA-121 with 10-16 F-35Bs and enough trained pilots and support to deploy for war if needed. The first scheduled deployment is in 2017; Marines will operate the F-35B from Marine Corps Air Station Iwakuni, Japan.

While not intended to simulate actual air wing operations, the trials were intended to run through specific test cases. As an example, maintainers conducted a full engine removal and replacement and also attempted to demonstrate a lift-fan removal. Both were prioritized to ensure that it was shown the work can be done in the confined space of the hangar in the belly of the ship, says Lt. Cdr. Beth Kitchen of the Royal Navy, who was overseeing maintenance issues during the trials. The U.K. and possibly Italy are foreign partners buying the F-35B, which is designed for short takeoff and vertical landing.

In the case of the lift-fan removal, operators discovered that an extra shackle would be needed for the onboard task; this was one of many lessons from the trials, Kitchen says. Each, however, is manageable and there are “not going to be requirements maintenance procedures changes to the joint technical document” as a result of findings thus far in the trials, she says. They are “easily rectified.”

During the trials, 91 maintainers were aboard the Wasp contributing to the F-35 mission, the number now used for Harrier deployments.

During OT-1, an MV-22—the Marine Corps tiltrotor key to resupplying MEUs afloat—demonstrated for the first time the ability to transport the largest of five F135 engine modules from shore to ship. The size of the engine and its lift fan have been a concern, as an entire unit cannot fit in any Marine aircraft suitable for resupply. However, the 4,500-lb. power supply module was transported May 21 from NAS Patuxent River, Maryland. The trip validated the design of a special “buck,” a piece of equipment designed to safely transport engine components from shore to ship. The concept of operations will call for MV-22s to transport the engine by modules when replacements are needed; rarely will an entire engine replacement be required. The Pratt & Whitney F135 design allows for swapping out specific modules in the event of a repair.

Officials did not provide a mission-capable rate for the jets during OT. However, Maj. Michael Rountree, F-35 pilot and senior landing signal officer for OT-1, says the rates are comparable to those seen during operations on shore. Turnaround time is challenged by the limits of the ship, not the aircraft, he adds. Thus, the OT findings will be used to refine procedures for operations on the ship.

The Wasp used the same Thermion nonskid deck coating—designed to protect from the extreme heat from the F135 during vertical landing and short takeoff—as used during the DT trials. Officials will assess coating performance during OT events to ensure ships slated to carry the F-35B are properly outfitted. In addition to Thermion, which is made in America, a U.K. company makes a similar product, says Lt. Cdr. Neil Mathieson, the Royal Navy’s F-35B ship air integration lead during the trials. Though scorching was visible on the deck where the landings took place and early in the vertical takeoff where exhaust was most concentrated at the slowest speeds, officials say there was no indication of a problem.

As of May 26, no tires required changing as a result of a failure on the ship. Officials say they would likely perform a tire change even if one is not required to demonstrate procedures in the confines of the ship’s footprint. Poor tire performance on the ship earlier plagued the program, so the OT performance was welcomed by overseers.

Pilots performed 98 sorties and 73.1 total flight hours when operations closed for the day May 26, according to Marine Corps spokesman Maj. Paul Greenberg, for an average of 17 sorties and 11.1 hr. of total flight time each day.

Davis says he plans to conduct a final operational readiness inspection in July prior to the operational debut; this indicates the actual IOC declaration could come weeks after the July 1 target date.



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Unread post29 May 2015, 03:35

Good point about Ship Thermion 'QS' - I was going to comment over on BreakDaFence but then again life is too short (if THERMION is four times more expensive and will not be used on entire LHD deck then IF the 'lastingness' of said THERMION is more than four times the ordinary non-skid is that a winwin). I think sometimes the mil peoples say things awkwardly in an effort to be best understood by these civilian reporters - but I was not there so don't quote me. :mrgreen:

AND... 'brungItBack' youse are a gem - tanksAmil. :mrgreen:
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Unread post29 May 2015, 03:43

Amy also wrong about tire performance. "On the ship" was not the issue since all ship landings are VLs. The issue was ashore where they were restricted to higher speed rolling landings (i.e. higher touch down spped and thus higher wear per landing).
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Unread post29 May 2015, 03:43

'ELP' is loonytunes as per usual so this quote from above AvWeak is for his'n edjuckation. Youse will know wot I mean if recent (H)ELP blogpost found. AND I will attest the BUTLER is at least neutral (no fangril nor BS acolyte) regarding the F-35s.
"...Additional DTs will follow as more capability is introduced into service, officials say. The first squadron to declare IOC will be VMFA-121 with 10-16 F-35Bs and enough trained pilots and support to deploy for war if needed. The first scheduled deployment is in 2017; Marines will operate the F-35B from Marine Corps Air Station Iwakuni, Japan.

While not intended to simulate actual air wing operations, the trials were intended to run through specific test cases. As an example, maintainers conducted a full engine removal and replacement and also attempted to demonstrate a lift-fan removal. Both were prioritized to ensure that it was shown the work can be done in the confined space of the hangar in the belly of the ship, says Lt. Cdr. Beth Kitchen of the Royal Navy, who was overseeing maintenance issues during the trials. The U.K. and possibly Italy are foreign partners buying the F-35B, which is designed for short takeoff and vertical landing.

In the case of the lift-fan removal, operators discovered that an extra shackle would be needed for the onboard task; this was one of many lessons from the trials, Kitchen says. Each, however, is manageable and there are “not going to be requirements maintenance procedures changes to the joint technical document” as a result of findings thus far in the trials, she says. They are “easily rectified.”

During the trials, 91 maintainers were aboard the Wasp contributing to the F-35 mission, the number now used for Harrier deployments....

...Officials did not provide a mission-capable rate for the jets during OT. However, Maj. Michael Rountree, F-35 pilot and senior landing signal officer for OT-1, says the rates are comparable to those seen during operations on shore. Turnaround time is challenged by the limits of the ship, not the aircraft, he adds. Thus, the OT findings will be used to refine procedures for operations on the ship...."
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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