F-35 coating applied to F-22

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
Forum Veteran
Forum Veteran
 
Posts: 962
Joined: 15 Feb 2013, 16:05

by uclass » 10 Oct 2014, 10:47

http://www.dailytech.com/F35+Stealth+Co ... e21321.htm

The USAF has some of the most capable aircraft in the world within its fleet. Many of the aircraft that it fields in any conflict are older and were designed decades ago; but it also has some very capable next generation aircraft like the F-22 and the F-35 that will be coming online in the next few years.

The F-22 and the F-35 are similar in that they are both fighter aircraft that are designed from the outset to have stealth characteristics to make them harder to see by enemy radar. With the F-35 being the newer aircraft, it has more advanced radar-absorbing coatings on the surface than the F-22. Lockheed has announced that it is now integrating some of the more advanced coatings the F-35 uses onto the F-22 fighters coming of the assembly line.

"Some of the [low observables] coatings system and gap-fillers that the F-35 had an advantage on, we have incorporated into the Raptor," said Jeff Babione, vice president and general manager of the F-22 program for Lockheed Martin.

Defense News reports that Babione claims that the new [url='http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=6169019&c=AME&s=AIR']coatings don’t change the radar cross section[/url] of the F-22. The coatings according to Babione are simply to reduce maintenance costs. He said, "[The F-35 program] had some more robust materials that were more durable and we were able to pull those back on to the F-22. So our system is better, and the life-cycle cost of the F-22 is reduced."


User avatar
Elite 5K
Elite 5K
 
Posts: 28404
Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
Location: Australia

by spazsinbad » 10 Oct 2014, 11:30



Banned
 
Posts: 2848
Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
Location: New Jersey

by zero-one » 10 Oct 2014, 12:01

on the same link it says

Daily Tech wrote:The coatings according to Babione are simply to reduce maintenance costs. He said, "[The F-35 program] had some more robust materials that were more durable and we were able to pull those back on to the F-22. So our system is better, and the life-cycle cost of the F-22 is reduced." - See more at: http://www.dailytech.com/F35+Stealth+Co ... IkPhP.dpuf


This is actually pretty old news. however this is the only explanation that I can find on why General Hostage said

the F-35 CAN beat the F-22 in stealth

Maybe what he means is that, with the F-35's more robust RAM coatings, it's RCS will remain more stable for a longer period than the F-22's high maintenance RAM coats.

however if the frontal aspect RCS of the F-22 and F-35 are 0.0001 and 0.001 respectively

then that means damaged coats can increase the F-22's RCS by a factor of more than 10!

But then again these are only frontal aspect RCS figures. Gen Hostage may have been referring to Side or maybe even rear aspects.

Arghhh, sometimes these things are too complicated with so many variables involved :bang:


Elite 5K
Elite 5K
 
Posts: 5184
Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
Location: Finland

by hornetfinn » 10 Oct 2014, 12:43

That F-35 can beat F-22 in stealth can mean a lot of things:
- lower RCS overall
- lower RCS in certain radar frequency bands
- lower RCS in certain aspects (as you mention)
- lower IR signature
- smaller visual signature
- better LPI modes in radar
- DAS and EOTS give so good passive detection/tracking capability that there is much less need to use radar in all aircraft
- better durability (as you mention)
- some combination of the above

I think F-22 has benefited a lot from JSF program and has probably gotten some improvements from there that would otherwise have not happened. I wonder if B-2 got or will get some improvements from JSF program too?


User avatar
Forum Veteran
Forum Veteran
 
Posts: 716
Joined: 28 Dec 2011, 05:37
Location: CA

by archeman » 10 Oct 2014, 17:39

Sorry I don't have the link, but I thought that I remembered reading that the F-22 was getting stealth coating updates around the engine inlets. Perhaps that is an area of focus for F-22 RCS maintainability.

That may be why the bits about frontal RCS effects and comparisons started?
Daddy why do we have to hide? Because we use VI son, and they use windows.


User avatar
Elite 5K
Elite 5K
 
Posts: 7720
Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

by popcorn » 11 Oct 2014, 00:05

Maybe it's a substitute to the messy caulking stuff they use on the Raptor after opening service panels?
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh


Forum Veteran
Forum Veteran
 
Posts: 962
Joined: 15 Feb 2013, 16:05

by uclass » 12 Oct 2014, 17:22

zero-one wrote:
This is actually pretty old news. however this is the only explanation that I can find on why General Hostage said

the F-35 CAN beat the F-22 in stealth

Using some logical interpolation, if the F-35's RAM doesn't change the F-22's RCS then it must be equally as effective and the F-35 is a smaller aircraft in all dimensions, therefore the smaller aircraft with the same coating and similar stealth design, should have a smaller RCS.


User avatar
Elite 5K
Elite 5K
 
Posts: 28404
Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
Location: Australia

by spazsinbad » 25 Dec 2014, 19:10

For some reason this artickle from 01? Dec 2014 was overlooked? Perhaps not and I may find it later but have looked - anyway the quote at the end about stealth is what matters here....
The F-35 on Final Approach The massive strike fighter program is less than a year from initial combat readiness.
Dec 2014 John Tirpak AFM

"...Stealthier than a Raptor...
...Hostage caused a stir in late spring when, in press interviews, he said the F-35 would be stealthier than the F-22, its larger USAF stablemate. Conventional wisdom had pegged the F-22, with its angled, vectored-thrust engines, as a stealthier machine than the F-35. Hostage also said the F-35 would be unbeatable when employed in numbers, which is why the full buy of aircraft is "so critical."

"I would say that General Hostage … is accurate in his statement about the simple stealthiness of the F-35 [with regard] to other airplanes," [wot other airplanes but] Bogdan said in the interview. The statement was accurate for radar cross section, as measured in decibels, and range of detectability, he said, and he scoffed at the notion that anyone can tell how stealthy an aircraft is just by looking at it.

The comment about the effectiveness of F-35s together "has less to do with stealthiness and more to do with overall survivability," he said.

"We are going to ask the F-35 to do things that no other airplane—fourth gen or otherwise—is going to be able to do in the future," he stated. For some of those missions, "it would be much better to do it with more than one F-35."

Besides their stealthiness, the F-35s share information and can perform electronic warfare, electronic attack, and cyber missions.

"When you put two F-35s in the battlespace, … they become even more survivable when they do it together," Bogdan asserted. With two or more, "the sum of the parts is greater than the whole," especially when the aircraft are teaming up "from different parts of the airspace, on the same targets. It becomes quite effective."

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... roach.aspx


Elite 5K
Elite 5K
 
Posts: 8407
Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
Location: California

by SpudmanWP » 25 Dec 2014, 20:00

spazsinbad wrote:he scoffed at the notion that anyone can tell how stealthy an aircraft is just by looking at it


Someone forgot to tell APA, ELP, etc :)
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."



Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests