The trouble with the basement dwellers

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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markithere

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Unread post15 Sep 2015, 22:27

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/15/politics/ ... index.html

I am not surprised that this one gets it wrong too. This article tries to make the OT-1 part of the July evaluation for IOC.

/sigh

The moral of the story should be read the info for yourself so you can see the level of ineptitude being displayed by the authors.

What should have been properly shown is how much was improved between the two dates. Oh and also just how awesome our Marines really are.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post15 Sep 2015, 22:47

Interesting article pointed to by 'markithere' above, mainly for the USMC response to POGO quote (is this anywhere else? I guess the USMC website will have it). Anyway:
F-35 tests fell short, Pentagon report says
15 Sep 2015 Zachary Cohen

"...While the event aboard the USS Wasp did not qualify as a true operational test in the eyes of the DOT&E, the report says the trials did serve as a useful training opportunity for the Marines assigned to F-35B units and highlighted a number of issues, particularly with the aircraft's integration with existing ships and maintenance challenges, that were important to identify before its first deployment.

The Marine Corps said it does not agree with all of the conclusions and opinions outlined by the DOT&E in the POGO report, due to what it called a lack of context and qualifying information, according to a statement provided to CNN.

"During OT-1, we wanted to prove that non-test F-35B aircraft could be operated and sustained aboard an L-class ship," the Marine Corps said in a statement. "We successfully did that. The two weeks of operational testing assessed the aircraft's integration with the U.S. Navy ship and crew, operating a wide array of flight and deck operations."...

..."Data collected and lessons learned during OT-1 will lay the groundwork for F-35B deployments aboard U.S. Navy amphibious carriers now that the U.S. Marine Corps' F-35B Lightning II aircraft reached initial operational capability (IOC) on July 31, 2015," the Marine Corps said."

Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/09/15/polit ... index.html
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tritonprime

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Unread post15 Sep 2015, 23:47

Isn't it customary to complete IOT&E testing before declaring IOC?
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spazsinbad

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Unread post15 Sep 2015, 23:52

That discussion "IOT&E testing before declaring IOC" has been had at least once here. I'll look for that thread.... For example Congress required the respective IOCs to be given to them some two years ago? Here is a thread example with a quote link:

F-35 IOC 2015, 2016, 2019 four pages of thread goodness - read it all from go to whoa (search on 'IOC*' for example)
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24061&p=253106&hilit=IOC%2A#p253106
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viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24061&p=253111&hilit=capability#p253111
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Unread post16 Sep 2015, 01:21

tritonprime wrote:Isn't it customary to complete IOT&E testing before declaring IOC?


Not always as you can see in the (very early 2002) attached pic that IOC happened as SDD was winding down.

Image
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spazsinbad

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Unread post16 Sep 2015, 01:45

The official statements for IOC for the three services - JOINT - in the PDF attached made from:
https://www.f35.com/assets/uploads/down ... _final.pdf
&
another looksee: https://www.f35.com/news/detail/departm ... -services/
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f-35_ioc_joint_report_final.pdf
(86.08 KiB) Downloaded 239 times
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Unread post16 Sep 2015, 02:57

SpudmanWP wrote:
markithere wrote:BF-23 embarrassed all other s on ship during the OT.

This?
BF-23 performed best, accumulating roughly 23 flight hours over 20 flights and was the only aircraft to be scheduled and flown every day while underway.


Pffft. The test wasn't about generating sorties or flying hours. It was about how the F-35 integrated onboard and the ability of Marines to work it on and belowdecks. One plane got picked to do most of the flying. How many of the NMC blocks in the table shown represent planned downtime for maintenance and plane handling demonstrations like engine module change and the exercise where they learned they had to make changes if they want to swap the lift fan?

This is ANOTHER classic example of POGO's P.A.C.E. approach. This time it is unintentionally helpful. It clearly illustrates one of POGOs' newest 'dezinformatsia' ratlines via the CNN article linked above. The California Rep (Jackie Speier) identified as a long time 'critic' and quoted heavily was Mandy Smithberger's 'boss' until fairly recently and before 'Mandy' came back (via the Faux Reform crowd's left-wing revolving door operation) to POGO, so she could be the new, Winslow Wheeler (not a terribly hard job, but what-the-hey).

I'm watching these new Reformer 'propaganda ratlines' a little more closely these days, and discovering some interesting things. For example and as an aside (but still on the basement dweller topic), How many here knew that Dave Majumdar is ALSO a Congressional 'staffer' for a close colleague of Mandy's old boss, given he just wrote his latest Punk Journalism hit piece under a different job title for a minor realpolitik 'think tank'?

As always, if you want to know absolute motive behind this tripe, just 'Follow the money':
Chairman-Phil.jpg

(Mac rant over....for now).

...edited twice to fix a parens, typo, and errant comma.
Last edited by smsgtmac on 16 Sep 2015, 03:30, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread post16 Sep 2015, 03:01

tritonprime wrote:Isn't it customary to complete IOT&E testing before declaring IOC?



Nope. From a DAU link --

"In general, attained when selected units and/or organizations in the force structure scheduled to receive a new system have received it and have the ability to employ and maintain it. The specifics for any particular system IOC are defined in that system’s Capability Development Document (CDD) and Capability Production Document (CPD)."
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Unread post16 Sep 2015, 04:13

smsgtmac wrote:
markithere wrote:BF-23 embarrassed all other s on ship during the OT.

This?
BF-23 performed best, accumulating roughly 23 flight hours over 20 flights and was the only aircraft to be scheduled and flown every day while underway.


Pffft.


What he meant (I was not the original poster) was that out of all the F-35Bs involved, BF-23 had a flawless record during OT-1. At the end of every day it was "FMC", which naturally lead to it having the highest number of hours & flights.

I think he said it in jest.
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smsgtmac

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Unread post16 Sep 2015, 05:58

[quote="SpudmanWP
What he meant (I was not the original poster) was that out of all the F-35Bs involved, BF-23 had a flawless record during OT-1. At the end of every day it was "FMC", which naturally lead to it having the highest number of hours & flights.

I think he said it in jest.[/quote]

OK. I wasn't even thinking in terms of the bearer of the bad news, but of the POGO/DOT&E (but I repeat myself) emphasis on sorties and MC rates when they were not the purpose of the event. If it came off that way I apologize. I actually would not have even bothered with the comment here if I had seen the other two threads circulating on the report from different angles. IMHO Quicksilver wins all three threads, and his observations about DOT&E's culpability should be used to beat all the POGOites more senseless wherever they are found.
G'night Spud, all :salute:
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sferrin

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Unread post23 Sep 2015, 13:14

Here we go again. . .

"In an eight-page document marked “not for public release,” the U.S. Air Force commands its airmen to say positive things about Lockheed Martin’s problem-prone F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

“Articulate the capabilities of the aircraft and explain it is a capability warfighters must have (explain why we need the F-35),” the self-described public affairs “guidance” demands.

The document is circulating at a critical time for the 20-year, $400-billion effort to develop and build as many as 2,400 F-35s for the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps plus hundreds more for foreign air arms.

In late July, we published a scathing internal Air Force memo detailing the complex, overweight F-35’s repeated defeats in mock dogfights with a much older F-16, one of the planes the JSF is supposed to replace. "

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... -f_35.html

A single test event is now "repeated defeats in mock dogfights".

:roll:
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Unread post23 Sep 2015, 16:26

If we wanted to twist the words of David Axe:

https://youtu.be/Hp8rjsYxods?t=101

"I became a journalist because I wasn't good at anything else."

"In fact, being too smart and too clever can be counterproductive as a journalist."
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tritonprime

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Unread post23 Sep 2015, 20:25

sferrin wrote:Here we go again. . .

"In an eight-page document marked “not for public release,” the U.S. Air Force commands its airmen to say positive things about Lockheed Martin’s problem-prone F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

“Articulate the capabilities of the aircraft and explain it is a capability warfighters must have (explain why we need the F-35),” the self-described public affairs “guidance” demands.

The document is circulating at a critical time for the 20-year, $400-billion effort to develop and build as many as 2,400 F-35s for the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps plus hundreds more for foreign air arms.

In late July, we published a scathing internal Air Force memo detailing the complex, overweight F-35’s repeated defeats in mock dogfights with a much older F-16, one of the planes the JSF is supposed to replace. "

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... -f_35.html

A single test event is now "repeated defeats in mock dogfights".

:roll:


Don't airman require permission to speak to the media? How is this media guidance different from any other organization? If you work for someone, you don't express your personal opinions to the media or a customer.
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Unread post23 Sep 2015, 20:33

I would imagine that there are a lot of classified information bits and pieces that cannot be revealed to unauthorised persons in any military. 'Talking Points' are issued on a regular basis. Here is a USMC example dated 27 May 2015:

http://www.mcvthf.org/May%2027-2015%20Playbook.pdf (1Mb)

And an oldie but a goldie USMCer from SNAFUclueless when she was for the F-35 dated 12 Dec 2012:

http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.com.au/20 ... as-of.html

PuzzlePalacePentaorthogonal talking points dated 06 Jan 2011: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_download-id-13895.html
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