The trouble with the basement dwellers

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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spazsinbad

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Unread post27 Feb 2015, 21:22

The image by 'sergei' is repeated below as a .GIF with a PDF made from it also attached. http://i.imgur.com/8twmyyk.png

http://afcommission.whs.mil/public/docs ... 20RAND.pdf (5.1Mb)
&
http://breakingdefense.com/wp-content/u ... 13-SAR.pdf (0.9Mb)
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CPHsar2013comparisonF-16toF-35.gif
CPHsar2013comparisonF-16toF-35pdf.pdf
(238.63 KiB) Downloaded 170 times
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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sergei

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Unread post27 Feb 2015, 22:05

eskodas wrote:"The F-35A flies 250 hours(higher capability simulators replace some flying hours)per year at the cost of $32.5k per hour, cost of $8.1 million per year. An active F-16 flies 316 hours per year at a cost of $8.2 million per year and 26k per hour, the F-16 does not include pods(Fuel, ECM, Targeting) required to reach similar capability as the F-35."

But how long is "lifetime" they are both 8,000 hour airframes but the F-35A flies for 32 years, the F-16 is 25 years, so an F-35 lifecycle is going to be 28% more expensive but 7 years longer. Ideally we would amortized the acquistion cost into the lifecycle then make it a per year lifecycle cost, but we can't do that without UNRF+Support cost of the F-16.

http://i.imgur.com/8twmyyk.png

You was first poster.
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bring_it_on

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Unread post27 Feb 2015, 23:18

"Don Bacon • 4 hours ago
I fear that Bat Man is a JPO sockpuppet -- all the evidence points to it. I mentioned sockpuppets previously, not in connection to BM, but he rose to it in his response, as he might be expected to do -- the shoe fits.

I've had experience with paid JSF sockpuppets (either Lockheed or JPO) before, mostly on another site (BD). So I recognize the pattern. They are confused, they want answers to questions and they ridicule F-35 opponents. Basically, troll-like but worse, they try to obfuscate and delay rational discussion and fact presentations. How about a lot of big pictures, that'll work to bury factual comments from other readers.

JPO/Lockheed sockpuppets have all day to devote to the difficult task of defending the worst and most expensive military acquisition program in history. Who would do that for free? It's quite obvious when one considers that most if not all F-35 fanboys -- journalists, consultants, sockpuppets etc. -- have a financial interest. Who else would take the time to that if they weren't financially benefiting. Very damn few, if any.

I say JPO in BM's case because he took particular offense, went beyond any reason, recently when I suggested that Bogdan ought to read the war college study on lying in the military. "Were you accusing General Bogdan of being a liar? I work with military and I know how honest they are ...blah blah."

Looks like a JPO sockpuppet to me, a part of the Pentagon's full-court press on Canada that I posted on earlier. I expect him to deny it, expressing his usual confusion and asking questions. Probably a giant cartoon, too. Enjoy him. I don't."]


Shame to see such Holmesian talents going to waste on the internet. #FBI
Last edited by bring_it_on on 28 Feb 2015, 00:12, edited 1 time in total.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post27 Feb 2015, 23:44

bring_it_on wrote:
"Don Bacon • 4 hours ago
I fear that Bat Man is a JPO sockpuppet -- all the evidence points to it. I mentioned sockpuppets previously, not in connection to BM, but he rose to it in his response, as he might be expected to do -- the shoe fits.

I've had experience with paid JSF sockpuppets (either Lockheed or JPO) before, mostly on another site (BD). So I recognize the pattern. They are confused, they want answers to questions and they ridicule F-35 opponents. Basically, troll-like but worse, they try to obfuscate and delay rational discussion and fact presentations. How about a lot of big pictures, that'll work to bury factual comments from other readers.

JPO/Lockheed sockpuppets have all day to devote to the difficult task of defending the worst and most expensive military acquisition program in history. Who would do that for free? It's quite obvious when one considers that most if not all F-35 fanboys -- journalists, consultants, sockpuppets etc. -- have a financial interest. Who else would take the time to that if they weren't financially benefiting. Very damn few, if any.

I say JPO in BM's case because he took particular offense, went beyond any reason, recently when I suggested that Bogdan ought to read the war college study on lying in the military. "Were you accusing General Bogdan of being a liar? I work with military and I know how honest they are ...blah blah."

Looks like a JPO sockpuppet to me, a part of the Pentagon's full-court press on Canada that I posted on earlier. I expect him to deny it, expressing his usual confusion and asking questions. Probably a giant cartoon, too. Enjoy him. I don't."]


Shame to see such Holmesian talents going to waste on the internet.


LOL

"As a guy who spends all day on the internet, I've learned that people who spend all day on the internet are paid to do so, or else who would do such a thing?"
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eskodas

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Unread post28 Feb 2015, 01:12

sergei wrote:You was first poster.


Yes... You should get some English lessons, your obviously having trouble making a coherent arguement, maybe your having a communication issue.
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Unread post02 Mar 2015, 09:04

Well, Tyler is sure at it again!

F-35 Can't Carry Its Most Versatile Weapon Until At Least 2022

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/f-35-c ... 1688616599

Not to mention one of his qoutes in the following blog

"I think I am very fair to the F-35 and what it brings to the table. Those who work on the program are patriots and are doing their best, the leadership in the DoD Industry and Congress who were bought and sold this terrible concept under totally unworkable time tables and budgets are who is to blame."

He sure thinks very highly of himself. Unfortunately, I haven't found that much balance in his journalism.
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Unread post02 Mar 2015, 09:18

jtcreate wrote:Well, Tyler is sure at it again!

F-35 Can't Carry Its Most Versatile Weapon Until At Least 2022

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/f-35-c ... 1688616599

Not to mention one of his qoutes in the following blog

"I think I am very fair to the F-35 and what it brings to the table. Those who work on the program are patriots and are doing their best, the leadership in the DoD Industry and Congress who were bought and sold this terrible concept under totally unworkable time tables and budgets are who is to blame."

He sure thinks very highly of himself. Unfortunately, I haven't found that much balance in his journalism.


Tyler Rogoway is a very liberal hipster who is one giant blow hard POS who thinks he knows more than real professionals.

He trashes all ideas that aren't his, and then looks for data and spurious conclusions to support the narrative that he wants to spew forth.
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Unread post02 Mar 2015, 23:16

KamenRiderBlade wrote:
jtcreate wrote:Well, Tyler is sure at it again!

F-35 Can't Carry Its Most Versatile Weapon Until At Least 2022

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/f-35-c ... 1688616599

Not to mention one of his qoutes in the following blog

"I think I am very fair to the F-35 and what it brings to the table. Those who work on the program are patriots and are doing their best, the leadership in the DoD Industry and Congress who were bought and sold this terrible concept under totally unworkable time tables and budgets are who is to blame."

He sure thinks very highly of himself. Unfortunately, I haven't found that much balance in his journalism.


Tyler Rogoway is a very liberal hipster who is one giant blow hard POS who thinks he knows more than real professionals.

[i] He trashes all ideas that aren't his, and then looks for data and spurious conclusions to support the narrative that he wants to spew forth.



That's another accurate way of putting it. :D I don't see too much counter arguments in the attached blogs to foxtrotalpha. Seeing that blog posting has to be approved by the publisher, I wouldn't be surprised Tyler is exercising his own form of censorship. Either way, so much for trying to be fair concerning the F-35 argument.
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Unread post03 Mar 2015, 16:10


"I think I am very fair to the F-35 and what it brings to the table. Those who work on the program are patriots and are doing their best, the leadership in the DoD Industry and Congress who were bought and sold this terrible concept under totally unworkable time tables and budgets are who is to blame."



http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s49 ... 02bba5.gif
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Unread post04 Mar 2015, 19:41

This piece by Tyler Rogoway reminds of a a sports reporter putting down a sports franchise but excluding the players.

The X city Superdudes is run pathetically, no structure with no regards for their fans. I'd like to take this time to exclude the players though, they're a great bunch of guys/gals & it's not their fault this org is run by fools.


PLEASE! :doh:
There's an old rule among many in the fighter procurement business: "Too Early to Tell, Too Late to Stop".
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XanderCrews

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Unread post04 Mar 2015, 21:27

arrow-nautics wrote:This piece by Tyler Rogoway reminds of a a sports reporter putting down a sports franchise but excluding the players.

The X city Superdudes is run pathetically, no structure with no regards for their fans. I'd like to take this time to exclude the players though, they're a great bunch of guys/gals & it's not their fault this org is run by fools.


PLEASE! :doh:


Thats really a great analogy I like that.

If you want the blueprint on Tylers "logic" there its that in the united states the "troops" are basically "off limits" and the ultimate expression of that is the "I support the troops, but not the war" logic:

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/2006/03 ... 06_132.jpg

And Tyler's mindset there does not surprise me. In a lot of people's head the military is barely involved in the F-35 its just "someone's" invention and the military is the victim in all of it and these are also the people who are trying to read the military's secret smoke signals for help at every opportunity. they are just playing along and everyone in uniform is promoting it emphatically for no reason.

That is the nice version. Tyler is a victim of this bizarre logic that troops are not a critical tool for war. The other reason (more cynical) is that Tyler knows his readership will turn against him if he implies the military has responsibility for things it is responsible for. he relies on the troops to help him write or guest write too and can't burn them. Don Bacon still hasn't figured this out, that when he screams that everyone in uniform involved with the JSF is a liar, because the military lies (not smart Don, very not smart) he alienates everyone that is on the fence. the JSF may have issues, but its the men in uniform are doing their best, and they are trying to be just in an unjust "war."

This was discovered and corrected after vietnam by the anti war movement, when people were cruel to the troops and alienated themselves from the middle ground/majority of americans. Vietnam was nasty, but everyone turned on people who treated the troops badly. So they improved. the learned. Now you protest the war, but the troops are still really good guys who just happen to be involved in it. neutral participants. I'm not saying don't support the troops, but I don't think you can have a war where the military is somehow a victim of circumstance, or involved. And I loath that, I am a human that is morally weighing my actions and deciding on that action of my own free will. I am not a machine. If I'm in the military I made a decision to be there. I picked my service, I picked my MOS. If asked to do something I find morally wrong (like say fielding a weapon system I don't think will work) I will resist obliquely, quietly decline or refuse to do it and suffer the consequences. If you truly believe what you are doing is wrong, you have a moral responsibility to stop it, or let someone know. This is basic stuff, Super man is going to come and save the day, its on you.-- Work your backbone, you will need it in an emergency. Say what you will about those F-22 pilots, they stuck to their convictions. They didn't throw their hands up and go "but what can I do as automaton?!"

Which comes right back to what you were saying about sports teams. At one point it falls on the players. Sorry. But it does. "first they fire coaches, then they fire players" Its a common refrain. and fans will put up with all kinds of garbage if the product on the field is winning. (this is proven all over the world everyday in multiple sports)

So to close out this little rant, Of course the military is deeply involved in the JSF. The military is cheerleading it, the military is a willing and fully aware participant, the military if it did not want it would not have a hard time bricking it early on, its not hard to get programs cancelled, if they wanted to they could have sabotaged it dozens of times, and I presume the reason they want it so badly is because they actually think it will be worth having. You can not just push this on to politicos and lobbyists and industry and bureaucrats. Success or failure the military does not escape credit or blame-- the accountability is obvious. The US Military is going to be using this across 3 services for the next half century, and their success or failure is highly dependent on the military themselves. Tyler is even more full of sh*t than usual if he doesn't understand that, and he is simply pandering. or both. It also contradicts the meme, if as so many believe (including Tyler) that the US Marines "wanting STOVL" thus "ruined" the JSF. So are the US Marines no longer the military? or are they the only branch to achieve consciousness? (along with the Royal Navy but we don't talk about that)

So Xander, Just how stupid is Tyler Rogoway? let someone else tell you:

Let's say that the person you love the most has just been shot. He or she is lying in the street, bleeding and screaming. A guy rushes up and says, "Step aside." He looks over your loved one's bullet wound and pulls out a pocket knife -- he's going to operate right there in the street.

"OK, which one is the injured one?"

You ask, "Are you a doctor?"

The guy says, "No."

You say, "But you know what you're doing, right? You're an old Army medic, or ..."

At this point the guy becomes annoyed. He tells you that he is a nice guy, he is honest, he is always on time. He tells you that he is a great son to his mother and has a rich life full of fulfilling hobbies, and he boasts that he never uses foul language.

Confused, you say, "How does any of that f---ing matter when my [wife/husband/best friend/parent] is lying here bleeding! I need somebody who knows how to operate on bullet wounds! Can you do that or not?!?"

Now the man becomes agitated -- why are you being shallow and selfish? Do you not care about any of his other good qualities? Didn't you just hear him say that he always remembers his girlfriend's birthday? In light of all of the good things he does, does it really matter if he knows how to perform surgery?

In that panicked moment, you will take your bloody hands and shake him by the shoulders, screaming, "Yes, I'm saying that none of that other sh*t matters, because in this specific situation, I just need somebody who can stop the bleeding, you crazy f---ing a--hole."


http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-tru ... er-person/

Make sense? Now lets look at what Tyler said specically:

Those who work on the program are patriots and are doing their best, the nice guy with the pocket knife. Intentions trump competency. "What matters is that you tried", said no one who lost a war ever. No, what matters is you lost. Good intentions are useless without competent action.

The last issue is simply who he considers the "patriots" and "those who work on the program" Where do you draw that line or distinction Ty? Who makes that very selective cut? wasn't everyone working on the program including those who screwed up the time tables and other estimates just a patriot doing their best? What if the guy he is blaming for screwing the whole thing up bleeds red, white, and blue sings the national anthem between the tears; And the guy who hates the way his country is heading is assembling with perfection parts on an F-35 assembly line, and "hey its a job and I'm going to do it better because I have some pride and self respect in my workmanship" In other words, he is great at his job but only motivated by money, and a work ethic. So who are the patriots, and who are the screw ups Tyler?
Last edited by XanderCrews on 04 Mar 2015, 22:04, edited 3 times in total.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post04 Mar 2015, 21:43

:mrgreen: 'XanaDu' said: "...So are the US Marines no longer the military? or are they the only branch to achieve consciousness? (along with the Royal Navy...)" :devil: YES YES YES - open the pod bay doors HAL! I'm sorry Dave [brit F-35B] I can't do that.... :drool:
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post05 Mar 2015, 08:12

Tried to answer this falsehood but was blocked? Maybe comment will appear later anyhoo....
Top ten jump-jets
05 Feb 2015 Hush Kit [Fwit] :devil:

"...The abortive Yak-41 was an ambitious attempt to produce a supersonic VTOL carrier fighter for defence of the Soviet naval fleet. The project began in the mid-1970s and a prototype flew in 1987. In an unusual, and at the time secretive, move Lockheed funded the project to gain propulsion experience for the X-35 (forerunner to the F-35) they were then developing. The Yak-141 used a similar propulsion system to the F-35, with a swivelling main nozzle – but differed in having two lift engines (the F-35 opted for a lift fan powered by the main engine). This impressive, manoeuvrable aircraft achieved 12 FAI records in April 1991. It’s timing was unfortunate, arriving as the soviet union was disintegrating and it was cancelled in 1992. As with the F-35B, vertical take-off required the use of reheat (afterburner), necessitating the use of special steel decks...."

Source: http://hushkit.net/2015/03/05/top-ten-jump-jets/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post05 Mar 2015, 13:17

spazsinbad wrote:Tried to answer this falsehood but was blocked? Maybe comment will appear later anyhoo....
Top ten jump-jets
05 Feb 2015 Hush Kit [Fwit] :devil:

"...The abortive Yak-41 was an ambitious attempt to produce a supersonic VTOL carrier fighter for defence of the Soviet naval fleet. The project began in the mid-1970s and a prototype flew in 1987. In an unusual, and at the time secretive, move Lockheed funded the project to gain propulsion experience for the X-35 (forerunner to the F-35) they were then developing. The Yak-141 used a similar propulsion system to the F-35, with a swivelling main nozzle – but differed in having two lift engines (the F-35 opted for a lift fan powered by the main engine). This impressive, manoeuvrable aircraft achieved 12 FAI records in April 1991. It’s timing was unfortunate, arriving as the soviet union was disintegrating and it was cancelled in 1992. As with the F-35B, vertical take-off required the use of reheat (afterburner), necessitating the use of special steel decks...."

Source: http://hushkit.net/2015/03/05/top-ten-jump-jets/


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Unread post05 Mar 2015, 14:10

Anyone know what Milestone ELP is :doh: :doh:

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