F-35A maximum G rating lower than 5?!

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4933
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Nashua NH USA

Unread post22 Mar 2020, 00:36

quicksilver wrote:
Ok, I'm back. There are also some informal elements of a syllabus that help build ones ability to not just maneuver a given jet, but to develop a 'feel' for how it responds to control inputs at different altitudes, airspeeds and AOAs. We used to call them 1v0. These sorties can be enormously helpful at mitigating performance errors that might occur later in the formal BFM syllabus due to a nascent familiarity controlling a new jet in aggressive maneuvering.


Hey QS, not to say that Sim are the same as the real thing, they aren't, but this concept applied to my buddy and I in the F-14 for DCS.

We got the plane for me to be his RIO but I had more time to play with the sim, so I did a LOT of time carrier landing and dogfighting. As a result, by the time we could fly together in BFM I died quickly because he tried flying it like a Hornet (we over alpha-ed and stalled on the first pull, and almost every pull after that).

We set up another flight where we would both fly separate Tomcats. I let him saddle up on my six before going to full Mil and started maneuvering. Within a few minutes I was glued to his six and he couldn't shake me, even with him using full AB and me in Mil. I knew more about how the jet felt as it was being maneuvered.

Sorry to ramble on about sims, but the experience was exactly what you described real pilots going through.

side note, we were both in VR and both using the same HOTAS Warthog stick.
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
-PFD Systems Engineer
-PATRIOT Systems Engineer
Offline

quicksilver

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3139
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 01:30

Unread post22 Mar 2020, 01:01

:thumb: No substitute for ‘practical application.’

Modern sims are the exponential of “one picture is worth a thousand words.”
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 24784
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post22 Mar 2020, 01:28

However it is always great to bring whatever actual flying experience one may have to any sim because IME In My Experience (albeit with only simple desktop computer sims) that makes a difference. BFM is a brutal physical experience especially with the same aircraft with pilots of similar experience - it goes on and on until the hard deck reached under G.
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

quicksilver

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3139
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 01:30

Unread post22 Mar 2020, 01:46

"BFM is a brutal physical experience especially with the same aircraft with pilots of similar experience."

True, particularly in the A-4 series aircraft; half the fight was winning the battle against the parachute pack and the seat in your own jet. Harrier (AV-8 series in US usage) a lazy-boy recliner in comparison. Hornet had a very upright feeling.

I had the occasion to backseat in a 'D' Eagle jet a couple times. I found myself reflexively slapping my chest and lap straps to make sure I was still strapped in throughout each flight. Very comfortable...
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 24784
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post22 Mar 2020, 02:55

I ALWAYS strapped myself real tight with the seat with helmet buzzing the A4G canopy. I had permanent bruises on my shoulders, even more so with the MACCHI MB326H which - all things - leant forward! Weird as hell with the standard double visor and helmet which always slipped forward under sweat. :devil: FARK! :doh: Strapped in tight here as well.
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

lbk000

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 354
  • Joined: 04 May 2017, 16:19

Unread post22 Mar 2020, 18:33

spazsinbad wrote:the MACCHI MB326H which - all things - leant forward!

Now what's the logic behind that?
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 24784
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post22 Mar 2020, 23:01

Could not have been more silly the way the MB Mk.4 ejection seat forced the front seat pilot especially to be leaning forward slightly. IF you have seen old ejection seats they have lots of stuff and the way the seat was that was the case.

The graphic from the RAN/RAAF Macchi MB326H flight manual of the Martin-Baker 4B seat shows the top part 'parachute assembly' bulging out, this is the 'forcing one forward' bit. There was no reclining in this seat. One old bold A4G pilot who had first flown the Sea Venom with the 4A seat then later from the A4G became a QFI Qualified Flying Instructor at RAAF Pearce had to spend his leave in the hospital there having his back stretched so that he could continue to fly the thing.
Attachments
MB04BejectionSeatMACCHImb326Hmanual.gif
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 24784
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post23 Mar 2020, 01:09

A nice bunch of walkaround ejection seat for RAN/RAAF Macchi MB326H here: https://www.aussiemodeller.com.au/pages ... hi_P1.html
:shock: One may see how it all wants to FLOP FORWARD ffsake. :devil: (amalgamation of the three photos attached)
https://www.aussiemodeller.com.au/Image ... G_0322.jpg
&
https://www.aussiemodeller.com.au/Image ... G_0324.jpg
&
https://www.aussiemodeller.com.au/Image ... G_0371.jpg

I have lots of photos showing the front seat pilot leaning forward because that was the way - he was not being KEEN. 8)

Then lastly but not loosely strapped in the aforementioned front seat - the worst leaing forward offender for occupant.

https://www.aussiemodeller.com.au/Image ... G_0366.jpg
Attachments
MacchiMB326Hmb04bEjectionSeatIMG_0322&4&71.jpg
IMG_0366.jpg
866macchiMB326Hvc724.jpg
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

outlaw162

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1509
  • Joined: 28 Feb 2008, 02:33

Unread post23 Mar 2020, 19:27

M-B seats have broken a few backs, primarily due to wrong body position. Had a UPT classmate permanently paralyzed from an M-B ejection. But his two options were to quickly use the seat or die.

I imagine the -16E in the F-35 has a number, if not all of the bugs from the earlier models corrected.

With respect to similar BFM, flew block 10 v block 10 two sorties in one day at 45 years of age. Got thru half of the first cold beer at the Club, put my head down on the bar just for a moment....and fell asleep. However, the 30 year olds I flew against never even showed up.

A little less than 400 hours in the A, got to hand it to the folks that do 2-3000 or more hours in the thing. A future windfall for orthopedic surgeons. :mrgreen:

But I've actually hurt worse from F-100 students unexpected 'yank and banks', while in the back seat and twisted around inopportunely. And then you had to tote that parachute backpack back to PE....had trouble one day getting it high enough to hang on an upper peg. Another advantage of instructing from the chase position, as in the F-35. :D
Offline

jbgator

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 166
  • Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 01:31
  • Location: VA

Unread post24 Mar 2020, 00:20

Being a Viper Baby I had 1300+ hours in the F-16 when I went to fly the mighty Phantom II. I quickly learned to hate what I called the Martin Baker De Sade seat. Beside the parachute pack that drove your head forward there was the face curtain handles that, unless you were a midget (I'm only 5'8"), hit the back of your helmet and further pushed your head forward. Fortunately you were not going to do a lot of Gs in the Double Ugly so the leaning forward position was only a pain for the other 99% of the time you were flying the jet. Don't even get me started on the leg restraints which further increased the feeling the good Marquis De Sade had you under his control. I was so happy to go back to the luxurious ACES 2 recliner 18 months later. Never sat in one of those painfully upright British inventions again thankfully. I guess you need that stoic British fortitude...eh...what? Sad to see they won out and got their painful contraptions in the F-35. While I was still staff at ACC there was a strong effort to get the new ACES seat put into USAF jets. Guess that failed. I flew many long hours and pulled a lot of Gs in ACES 2, never a problem. Progress I guess.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 24784
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post24 Mar 2020, 00:58

:doh: Heheh. BONDAGE! with Martin the BAKER. :devil: Most of my era first encounter was the Mk.3B seat with single overhead handle and one between legs in the VAMPIRE. BONDAGE! MB style. Yessir Nosir we had BOWYANGS (leg restrainsts as aforementioned). BONDAGE! MB style. SEA VENOM Mk.4 seat BONDAGE MBstyle BOUYANGS (alternate BONDAGE! spelling). The VAMPIRE seat had the raft rubber hole plugs packed directly under one's **** BONDAGE! MBstyle. Nothing could be done about it except SUBMIT. BONDAGE! MBstyle. At least with the stiffened carboard British Mk1A helmet with canvas inner web cushion with a cloth helmet inside that with the radio earplugs that combo was comfortable compared to that damn MACCHI double visor required helmet. Thankfully later the RAN Safety Equippos Head Honchos came to their senses allowing A4G/Macchi Pilots to wear the same single visor helmet with interchangeable oxygen masks. A win for the good guys. Not so my era we had to have and not change the regulation safety equipment with one exception the antiGpants which were interchangeable - the A4G had no pockets whereas the Macchi had voluminous lower leg pockets that could be filled with goodies even when the BOW YANGS were fitted. BONDAGE! MBstyle. :mrgreen:

The VAMP seat had a 120 knot 200 feet min ejection condition so staying low after takeoff for a turnback (for practice) was always fun in case the engine failed. We did similar takeoffs in the MACCHI but not Sea Venom it had better Mk.4.

The MACCHI Mk.4 MB ejection seat had a NEGATIVE G STRAP. BONDAGE MBstyle. Fun for strapping in passengers in seat.
Attachments
BOWYANGSmbMk3BejectionSeatFORUM.gif
MacchiMBmk4seatNegGstrap+VAMPIREmk3B.gif
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline
User avatar

Gums

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2403
  • Joined: 16 Dec 2003, 17:26

Unread post24 Mar 2020, 03:27

Salute!

Gotta go with "Gator" about that ACES seat. Damned comfortable, as was the ESCAPAC seat in the Sluf, although we retained the Navy handles above and below, face curtain included, heh heh.

No serious back injuries to speak of in the Sluf I can recall, and the folks that punched in the Viper had praise for the smooth ride.The funny thing about that seat in the Viper was the 30 degree tilt was a non-player in a fight. We nmostly sat straight up so we could hold onto one of the "towel racks" and twist around.

Gums sends...
Gums
Viper pilot '79
"God in your guts, good men at your back, wings that stay on - and Tally Ho!"
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 24784
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post24 Mar 2020, 04:57

Yep, ESCAPAC seat in the A-4 was comfy compared to the others SAT in - tight fit in cockpit though - butt OK never mind.

See the back of an ESCAPAC in the front seat of a TA-4K KAHU at NAS Nowra c.2000 + glimpses of the F-16-like avionics.

Supersonic Life - Fighter Jet Teaser No. 2.1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIaRph93frE

A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

madrat

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2804
  • Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 03:12

Unread post24 Mar 2020, 11:55

Nice.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 24784
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post28 Mar 2020, 20:30

:devil: Just because we are having fun - WOT? A little something for these times as seen online elsewhere.... 8)
"Saw a news report yesterday where a doctor said that, to alleviate the boredom of the forced isolation in our homes, we should focus inward and look for inner peace. One way he said we could achieve this was to check around and find those projects we had started but never finished, for one reason or another. The satisfaction of finally getting them done would lead to a healthy, strong sense of satisfaction and accomplishment.

So I looked through my house to find those things I'd started and hadn't completed. I finished off a bottle of merlot, a bottle of chardonnay, a bodle of Baileys, a buttle a wum, tha mainder of Valiumun srciptuns, an a box a chocletz. Yu haf no idr how fablus I feel rite now! Sned this to all who need inner peez, an telum u luvum. And rember two hash yer wands!!

Haff a stafe day avrybobby!!!"
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
PreviousNext

Return to General F-35 Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests