F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2013, 09:48
by Corsair1963
I know the JSF Program has seriously been considering sending an F-35 to an Airshow to perform. What would likely be the main contenders? :?:

RE: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2013, 13:15
by f35phixer
Easy STOVL, when? once we have more maturity/confidence in systems. Probably not till FOT&E time

RE: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2013, 13:36
by cantaz
Abbotsford International Airshow, British Columbia, Canada. :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2013, 16:07
by SpudmanWP
Corsair1963 wrote:I know the JSF Program has seriously been considering sending an F-35 to an Airshow to perform. What would likely be the main contenders? :?:


That's an easy choice.. Edwards AFB in California.

As far as when, they don't have any 2013 events scheduled, bummer. :x

RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2013, 17:45
by huggy
The Yuma Airshow this past March had the F-35 on static display.
As for which shows,... remember that Sequestration has put a hold on almost all military airshows until further notice.

That said, Andrews AFB, due to the nature of the show, is always looked at, since it is a chance for Industry to show their wares to Congressional staffers.
Can't argue with Edwards either.

At this point, it is total speculation.
But remember: they are not going to display the F-35 to show it off to the public. If it is at a show, it is there to make a sales pitch.

Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2013, 20:25
by neurotech
huggy wrote:The Yuma Airshow this past March had the F-35 on static display.
As for which shows,... remember that Sequestration has put a hold on almost all military airshows until further notice.

That said, Andrews AFB, due to the nature of the show, is always looked at, since it is a chance for Industry to show their wares to Congressional staffers.
Can't argue with Edwards either.

At this point, it is total speculation.
But remember: they are not going to display the F-35 to show it off to the public. If it is at a show, it is there to make a sales pitch.

There is the possibility of a company (pre-delivery) F-35 being used for a demo flight, at LMs expense, with one of their pilots. Especially for foreign airshows, LM/Boeing etc. picks up the costs as it really is a sales demo, not a recruiting event. The DoD is reimbursed for their costs. This is what happened when the F/A-18E/F jets went to Australia a few times, Boeing paid.

Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2013, 21:45
by XanderCrews
http://air-attack.com/images/single/108 ... s-AFB.html

The buzz from Yuma is a STOVL display at the next show. Fingers crossed

RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 03:03
by Corsair1963
Well, is Eglin AFB having an Open House this Fall??? Seems like that would be the ideal choice......

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 03:21
by qslim
Corsair1963 wrote:Well, is Eglin AFB having an Open House this Fall??? Seems like that would be the ideal choice......


I think the current flight limitations of Eglin's "operational" fleet would make for one snoozer of an airshow.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 05:08
by Corsair1963
qslim wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Well, is Eglin AFB having an Open House this Fall??? Seems like that would be the ideal choice......


I think the current flight limitations of Eglin's "operational" fleet would make for one snoozer of an airshow.



Well, what about Tyndall AFB or Pensacola NAS???

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 08:21
by huggy
Eglin is not having a show in 2013. No show is currently planned for 2014.
Tyndall cancelled their 2013 show. No show is currently planned for 2014.
Pensacola's show is on hold, and unlikely to take place, seeing as we are 6 weeks out, and no contracts are signed. http://www.naspairshow.com/

Do some of you not understand that the Dept of the Navy and the Dept of the Air Force have pretty much put a moratorium on hosting airshows, having military airplanes at airshows, and doing flyovers for airshows? If you don't like this, then why haven't you written you Congressman and Senator?

MCAS Miramar is about the only exception... but don't expect to see any military aviation hardware there. However, the Patriots Jet Team WILL be there, and they are OUTSTANDING. If you were at Reno, you can validate this.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 08:28
by Corsair1963
huggy wrote:Eglin is not having a show in 2013. No show is currently planned for 2014.
Tyndall cancelled their 2013 show. No show is currently planned for 2014.
Pensacola's show is on hold, and unlikely to take place, seeing as we are 6 weeks out, and no contracts are signed. http://www.naspairshow.com/

Do some of you not understand that the Dept of the Navy and the Dept of the Air Force have pretty much put a moratorium on hosting airshows, having military airplanes at airshows, and doing flyovers for airshows? If you don't like this, then why haven't you written you Congressman and Senator?

MCAS Miramar is about the only exception... but don't expect to see any military aviation hardware there. However, the Patriots Jet Team WILL be there, and they are OUTSTANDING. If you were at Reno, you can validate this.



Won't last forever...... :?

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 12:21
by boff180
There are very strong rumours that a deal has been struck for F-35's to be at Farnborough 2014 both on flying and static, as their international debut.

Andy

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 13:19
by sasheska
There should have been one at MAKS2013, just to piss off Sukhoi.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 13:51
by sferrin
sasheska wrote:There should have been one at MAKS2013, just to piss off Sukhoi.


If they're smart we'll never see an F-22 or F-35 at MAKS.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 14:14
by sprstdlyscottsmn
huggy wrote:Eglin is not having a show in 2013. No show is currently planned for 2014.
Tyndall cancelled their 2013 show. No show is currently planned for 2014.
Pensacola's show is on hold, and unlikely to take place, seeing as we are 6 weeks out, and no contracts are signed. http://www.naspairshow.com/

Do some of you not understand that the Dept of the Navy and the Dept of the Air Force have pretty much put a moratorium on hosting airshows, having military airplanes at airshows, and doing flyovers for airshows? If you don't like this, then why haven't you written you Congressman and Senator?

MCAS Miramar is about the only exception... but don't expect to see any military aviation hardware there. However, the Patriots Jet Team WILL be there, and they are OUTSTANDING. If you were at Reno, you can validate this.


I saw the Patriots at JBLM in 2010, there were fantastic!

Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 21:19
by energo
huggy wrote:The Yuma Airshow this past March had the F-35 on static display.
As for which shows,... remember that Sequestration has put a hold on almost all military airshows until further notice.

That said, Andrews AFB, due to the nature of the show, is always looked at, since it is a chance for Industry to show their wares to Congressional staffers.
Can't argue with Edwards either.

At this point, it is total speculation.
But remember: they are not going to display the F-35 to show it off to the public. If it is at a show, it is there to make a sales pitch.


Indeed, a good chance it will be at RIAT and Farnborough next year.

/BB

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2013, 09:38
by hornetfinn
Since airshows are mostly about showing power and maneuverability at low level, I wonder what kind of routine we can expect from the F-35 airshows? I could see using F-35B for rather cool STOVL show, like Harriers have done, but with way more power. Maybe show off high-alpha capability like F/A-18s do?

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2013, 10:00
by zero-one
You beat me to it Hornetfinn, I was about to ask the exact same thing,

but I'm a bit confused,

I thought the F-35 would have its maneuverability once its Block 3F software was installed, when is it scheduled for roll out by the way?

Wild guess here, but since the F-35 is mostly compared to have the maneuverability of the F/A-18, then I guess thats what we would see
however during the high AOA departure test, I did see the F-35 perform a tail slide so we may see that maneuver as well,

I'm not sure if the US will finally incorporate Russian maneuvers like the Cobra into their routines, although the F-22 is well capable of this and even Russian sources claim that the F/A-18 can do this as well (albeit at high altitudes, for safety according to them) its curious that they would not want to include this on their routines.


Sad cause I often get into heated arguments with Russian fanboys saying that no NATO plane can perform a proper Cobra
:D

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2013, 12:45
by sferrin
zero-one wrote:I'm not sure if the US will finally incorporate Russian maneuvers like the Cobra into their routines, although the F-22 is well capable of this and even Russian sources claim that the F/A-18 can do this as well (albeit at high altitudes, for safety according to them) its curious that they would not want to include this on their routines.


Sad cause I often get into heated arguments with Russian fanboys saying that no NATO plane can perform a proper Cobra
:D


They must not have seen any of the F-22's early routines. They did stuff like that and more. Easily. For some reason they've cut back on that the last years. I guess they figured "we've shown we can do it, now we're going to do the routine we want to do".

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2013, 15:05
by munny
Unless its ready to do something between

this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezMH3CN_zGk

and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgaOrCYb7b0

I say keep it in the bag a little longer.

I'm gonna put my money on the table and say it'll be closer to the second clip, just something about that wide concave front and deep tapered back-end on the bottom of the fuselage, I reckon it'll post stall turn beautifully.

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2013, 15:47
by zero-one
sferrin wrote:They must not have seen any of the F-22's early routines. They did stuff like that and more. Easily. For some reason they've cut back on that the last years. I guess they figured "we've shown we can do it, now we're going to do the routine we want to do".


Can you post a link of those early routines, so far the only Cobra I've seen from a Raptor is a pixelated grainy noisy video lasting around 28 seconds of a far away F-22 doing a Cobra


I'd like to see it in better quality

I usually counter the Raptor haters by asking if they've seen a Flanker or a PAK-FA doing a snap take off, so far I've never seen one, I think I saw a Flanker include a power loop, can't quite remember

and ofcourse the maneuver that no flanker can dream of a weapons bay door pass hehehe

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2013, 17:28
by sferrin
munny wrote:Unless its ready to do something between

this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezMH3CN_zGk

and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgaOrCYb7b0

.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYtpczzMTws

In that one the F-22 does the turn, and pulls into a climb. :shock:

(2:40)

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 04:04
by sferrin
zero-one wrote:
sferrin wrote:They must not have seen any of the F-22's early routines. They did stuff like that and more. Easily. For some reason they've cut back on that the last years. I guess they figured "we've shown we can do it, now we're going to do the routine we want to do".


Can you post a link of those early routines, so far the only Cobra I've seen from a Raptor is a pixelated grainy noisy video lasting around 28 seconds of a far away F-22 doing a Cobra


I'd like to see it in better quality

I usually counter the Raptor haters by asking if they've seen a Flanker or a PAK-FA doing a snap take off, so far I've never seen one, I think I saw a Flanker include a power loop, can't quite remember

and ofcourse the maneuver that no flanker can dream of a weapons bay door pass hehehe


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrBx6G2O6A4

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 04:29
by sketch22
zero-one wrote:
sferrin wrote:They must not have seen any of the F-22's early routines. They did stuff like that and more. Easily. For some reason they've cut back on that the last years. I guess they figured "we've shown we can do it, now we're going to do the routine we want to do".


Can you post a link of those early routines, so far the only Cobra I've seen from a Raptor is a pixelated grainy noisy video lasting around 28 seconds of a far away F-22 doing a Cobra


I'd like to see it in better quality

I usually counter the Raptor haters by asking if they've seen a Flanker or a PAK-FA doing a snap take off, so far I've never seen one, I think I saw a Flanker include a power loop, can't quite remember

and ofcourse the maneuver that no flanker can dream of a weapons bay door pass hehehe

Early airshow demos (pre 2007) were mostly glorified "flybys" performed by a temporary pilot who just happened to be in the right place at the right time. The crazy maneuvers he used to do behind the crowdline were for the purpose of testing them at low altitude and burning gas.

Raptors do cobras all the time, its part of the B-Course syllabus.

As for the F-22 against XYZ there are many aircraft that can perform almost the same moves as it can at airshow altitudes, but when you start getting above 30-40k AGL it quickly becomes apparent just how good those F119 motors are. I can say with confidence that the entire SU-27 family and probably the T-50 would be struggling to do those moves where the Raptor has no problem.

So, in summary, airshow demos are cool (and in the CONUS are missed greatly..) but in the operational world there is a lot more to the performance of an aircraft than whether it can do a power loop or a tailslide.

On topic, I'm assuming at some point ACC will stand up an F-35A West and East demo team for airshows, along with one team from the Marines and the Navy as well. I believe its more important than ever to show this aircraft off to the public, since it has more negative buzz around it than perhaps any other plane in history. Joe public needs to see their tax dollars at work and the best way to do it is a straight up, no kidding, full on burner fest by the Lightning.

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 07:53
by disconnectedradical
I'd reckon a T-50 with its definitive Izdeliye 30 engines from 2020 on can aerodynamically match or exceed the F-22 even at higher altitudes. I appreciate the T-50 from aerodynamic perspective. Whether that's worth the rather massive compromises in VLO is a whole other can of worms.

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 16:21
by haavarla
zero-one wrote:
sferrin wrote:They must not have seen any of the F-22's early routines. They did stuff like that and more. Easily. For some reason they've cut back on that the last years. I guess they figured "we've shown we can do it, now we're going to do the routine we want to do".


Can you post a link of those early routines, so far the only Cobra I've seen from a Raptor is a pixelated grainy noisy video lasting around 28 seconds of a far away F-22 doing a Cobra


I'd like to see it in better quality

I usually counter the Raptor haters by asking if they've seen a Flanker or a PAK-FA doing a snap take off, so far I've never seen one, I think I saw a Flanker include a power loop, can't quite remember

and ofcourse the maneuver that no flanker can dream of a weapons bay door pass hehehe


What is a snap take-off?

Does it include the following:
Minimum take-off lenght?
Maximum Climb rate after Rotation?
High speed/low flying before Climbing?

And what is a Power loop??

I've seen hundreds of Vids and i've been to several Airshows.
But i have never heard about a "Power loop" and "snap take-off"..
Is this some newly invented LM trade or..?

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 16:30
by haavarla
sketch22 wrote:
zero-one wrote:
sferrin wrote:They must not have seen any of the F-22's early routines. They did stuff like that and more. Easily. For some reason they've cut back on that the last years. I guess they figured "we've shown we can do it, now we're going to do the routine we want to do".


Can you post a link of those early routines, so far the only Cobra I've seen from a Raptor is a pixelated grainy noisy video lasting around 28 seconds of a far away F-22 doing a Cobra


I'd like to see it in better quality

I usually counter the Raptor haters by asking if they've seen a Flanker or a PAK-FA doing a snap take off, so far I've never seen one, I think I saw a Flanker include a power loop, can't quite remember

and ofcourse the maneuver that no flanker can dream of a weapons bay door pass hehehe

Early airshow demos (pre 2007) were mostly glorified "flybys" performed by a temporary pilot who just happened to be in the right place at the right time. The crazy maneuvers he used to do behind the crowdline were for the purpose of testing them at low altitude and burning gas.

Raptors do cobras all the time, its part of the B-Course syllabus.

As for the F-22 against XYZ there are many aircraft that can perform almost the same moves as it can at airshow altitudes, but when you start getting above 30-40k AGL it quickly becomes apparent just how good those F119 motors are. I can say with confidence that the entire SU-27 family and probably the T-50 would be struggling to do those moves where the Raptor has no problem.

So, in summary, airshow demos are cool (and in the CONUS are missed greatly..) but in the operational world there is a lot more to the performance of an aircraft than whether it can do a power loop or a tailslide.

On topic, I'm assuming at some point ACC will stand up an F-35A West and East demo team for airshows, along with one team from the Marines and the Navy as well. I believe its more important than ever to show this aircraft off to the public, since it has more negative buzz around it than perhaps any other plane in history. Joe public needs to see their tax dollars at work and the best way to do it is a straight up, no kidding, full on burner fest by the Lightning.


1st: Pls post a Source or even better, a vid of the F-22 doing Cobras in 30-40K altidude.
2nd: Pls post a Source where such manuveres are a smart thing to do in such altitude in the first place?
3rd: Pls post a Source the Su-35S or Pak-Fa can't do it?

It seems a bit lost to some People here..
But the real deal about Cobras at deck altitude above 80.000 People is this:

To show the jet relaxed stability, the overall stability and short time ability to regain flight after departured flight.
In essents to show how reliable the Jet is over a wide range of flight regimes.

For those who do not get it. If the pilot and the jet risk doing it in such risky enviroment time and time againk, there is ofcourse no question if it can do it at safer Altitude.

A.f.a.i.k there is not other jet that can do such manuvere as Flanker design in such low altidude.
The F-22 can do them, but they allways do it at higher altitude, for safty margin..

My best Guess is that the F-35A and C will have to settle for the same display as the Rafale and EF.

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 17:52
by XanderCrews
What is a snap take-off?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=f-22+snap+takeoff


And what is a Power loop??


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=F-22+power+loop

Is this some newly invented LM trade or..?


yes Mr. Larsen, if you haven't heard of something it was invented by LM. LM has invented a lot of things apparently...

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 18:25
by sferrin
"haavarla" sounds upset. :lol:

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 20:12
by XanderCrews
sferrin wrote:"haavarla" sounds upset. :lol:


Zampolits are ever vigilant.

Re: RE: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 20:35
by arrow-nautics
cantaz wrote:Abbotsford International Airshow, British Columbia, Canada. :mrgreen:


No no no, it should be at Canadian Forces Base Shearwater, Nova Scotia, Canada :mrgreen:

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 21:02
by spazsinbad
Now that is a neat function 'verylongnamewotIcannotremember' : http://lmgtfy.com :D

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 01:22
by haavarla
="XanderCrews"]
What is a snap take-off?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=f-22+snap+takeoff


Lol! That is a take-off... and that is what Your Google found as well.

So again, what is a Snap Take-off?


And what is a Power loop??


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=F-22+power+loop

Is this some newly invented LM trade or..?


Lol, as i thought:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22_Raptor_Demo_Team

It looks you learned to Google. Nice. The only remaining thing for you now is to read what you Googled..


yes Mr. Larsen, if you haven't heard of something it was invented by LM. LM has invented a lot of things apparently...


Regardless of Your weird LM phrases on these manuevers. The Flanker can do them all and more. Actuall, The Flankers did them over 10 years earlier.

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 01:36
by arrow-nautics
It's possible there might be a JSF variant at an airshow sooner than some might think. Airshows allows branding & commercial exposure. Too bad no one will be able to get past the leader posts & ropes. When I was a kid, we were allowed to look in the cockpits of fighters. That won't be happening with the JSF :( I also imagine Agent Smith to be on guard. Maybe the other agent will be Daniel CraigImage

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 02:57
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
sasheska wrote:There should have been one at MAKS2013, just to piss off Sukhoi.


If they're smart we'll never see an F-22 or F-35 at MAKS.



Would you care to explain???

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 03:07
by JetTest
I would like to see a reputable source that says a cobra has any application in the real world. In a real fight it looks like suicide, nothing more than a stunt to wow an uneducated crowd.

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 03:37
by spazsinbad
The COBRA defeated in this 'suicide scenaro':

Air-to-Air Fighter Combat Application of Pugachev’s Cobra Maneuver: Busting the Western Myth
19 Mar 2011 David Crane
"...The accompanying image (on right) is a graphical demonstration brief of how the Cobra maneuver can be used to shoot down the opposition in a dogfight (air-to-air combat). You’ll see it graphically demonstrates the following sequence:

1) Russian fighter pilot identifies target fighter aircraft location and speed.

2) Pilot gets a radar lock on target aircraft using the helmet sight cursor.

3) On flight/fire control command, pilot begins Cobra maneuver while IRS&T (Infrared Search & Track) continues to track the target aircraft.

4) Pilot launches air-to-air missile “over the shoulder”. The missile “knows” the expected target aircraft track.

[At this stage no.4 our friendly fighter pilot comments: “...friendly fighter sees stationary COBRAing target & guns it, thus breaking the TWS (Thermal Weapon Sight) on the Russian missile...”]

5) The pilot pitches his fighter aircraft down and continues on mission while the missile intercepts the target fighter aicraft...."

http://www.defensereview.com/the-air-to ... f-pugachev’s-cobra-maneuver-busting-the-western-myth/

http://www.defensereview.com/wp-content ... Brief1.jpg

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 03:47
by count_to_10
So, this would be an IRST that can point itself down past a right angle with respect to the airframe?
Aren't the Russian IRST on a fixed mount in the nose?

Otherwise, how exactly did the Cobra improve the odds of winning the "dogfight" over just firing while flying forward? What prevents the opponent from shooting down the now much less energetic aircraft?

Re: RE: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 15:31
by cantaz
No no no, it should be at Canadian Forces Base Shearwater, Nova Scotia, Canada :mrgreen:


The only way to be fair is for a cross-Canada tour stopping at all the major bases. :wink:

RE: Re: RE: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 18:20
by JetTest
And what, exactly, is it supposed to be adding to his missle shot? Looks like it just makes him more vulnerable to his intended targets wing, as he is left with such low energy. Looks like a sitting duck to me.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 19:56
by awsome
Do some of you not understand that the Dept of the Navy and the Dept of the Air Force have pretty much put a moratorium on hosting airshows, having military airplanes at airshows, and doing flyovers for airshows? If you don't like this, then why haven't you written you Congressman and Senator?(quote)

Cancelling military involvement in airshows is absolutely the right thing to do right now. At a time when manpower is being reduced and there are federal government furloughs it is important to demonstrate to our federal employees that everything that can be cut is being cut.

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2013, 23:56
by count_to_10
awsome wrote:Do some of you not understand that the Dept of the Navy and the Dept of the Air Force have pretty much put a moratorium on hosting airshows, having military airplanes at airshows, and doing flyovers for airshows? If you don't like this, then why haven't you written you Congressman and Senator?(quote)

Cancelling military involvement in airshows is absolutely the right thing to do right now. At a time when manpower is being reduced and there are federal government furloughs it is important to demonstrate to our federal employees that everything that can be cut is being cut.

When it comes down to it, air shows are a political operation, which the Air Force and Navy should only be spending resources on at times when-- and to the extent that-- there is a political pay off.

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2013, 00:12
by spazsinbad
For the airshow deprived...

Rafale - solo demo - Sanicole Sunset Airshow


Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2013, 01:53
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
sasheska wrote:There should have been one at MAKS2013, just to piss off Sukhoi.


If they're smart we'll never see an F-22 or F-35 at MAKS.



Would you care to explain???


It shouldn't need one. Why would we ever want to give the Russians a free look with every sensor they could drag to MAKS?

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshow

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2013, 05:38
by Conan
spazsinbad wrote:The COBRA defeated in this 'suicide scenaro':

Air-to-Air Fighter Combat Application of Pugachev’s Cobra Maneuver: Busting the Western Myth


I imagine an unbelievably large amount of praying to god the opposing fighter doesn't exploit the Cobra pilots sudden lack of energy and ability to maneuver and just pump A2A missiles into him whilst he is performing this, makes up a significant part of this "tactical" maneuver?

This type of scenario in which a pilot for some reason deliberately eliminates virtually ALL his energy, maneuver capability and situational awareness, whilst his opponent loses NONE of his has always appeared rather strange to me, but the best of luck to those who want to try it in a real shooting war...

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshow

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2013, 06:30
by popcorn
count_to_10 wrote:So, this would be an IRST that can point itself down past a right angle with respect to the airframe?
Aren't the Russian IRST on a fixed mount in the nose?

Otherwise, how exactly did the Cobra improve the odds of winning the "dogfight" over just firing while flying forward? What prevents the opponent from shooting down the now much less energetic aircraft?


Do such trivial details really matter? After all, the author claims his source is a "highly accomplished and well respected aeronautics designer/engineer who's worked on major US fighter programs and air-to-air missile programs " who in turn received the info from a "highly credible" source at TsAGI. For good measure, the US sources is also "highly credible". Of course, their names can only be revealed should they grant permission.
Charlie Deepthroat has some competition.
:D

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Airshow

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2013, 06:31
by popcorn
Deleted

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and Air

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2013, 07:39
by Corsair1963
Wouldn't most says such maneuvers are options but rare ones?

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Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2013, 14:13
by cantaz
Corsair1963 wrote:Wouldn't most says such maneuvers are options but rare ones?


Pulling the ejection handle is also option, but that doesn't make it a meaningful option.

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Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2013, 18:20
by castlebravo
cantaz wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Wouldn't most says such maneuvers are options but rare ones?


Pulling the ejection handle is also option, but that doesn't make it a meaningful option.


I think pulling the handle before the merge might actually result in a higher survival rate for the pilot than performing a cobra.

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Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2013, 18:45
by sferrin
castlebravo wrote:
cantaz wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Wouldn't most says such maneuvers are options but rare ones?


Pulling the ejection handle is also option, but that doesn't make it a meaningful option.


I think pulling the handle before the merge might actually result in a higher survival rate for the pilot than performing a cobra.


Yeah but at least the fanboys could brag about how cool he looked when he got shot down. :lmao:

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: F-35 and

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2013, 21:51
by XanderCrews
castlebravo wrote:
cantaz wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Wouldn't most says such maneuvers are options but rare ones?


Pulling the ejection handle is also option, but that doesn't make it a meaningful option.


I think pulling the handle before the merge might actually result in a higher survival rate for the pilot than performing a cobra.


https://www.janitorialworld.com/Guardia ... 443064.jpg

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 15:54
by zero-one
haavarla wrote:What is a snap take-off?

Does it include the following:
Minimum take-off lenght?
Maximum Climb rate after Rotation?
High speed/low flying before Climbing?

And what is a Power loop??

I've seen hundreds of Vids and i've been to several Airshows.
But i have never heard about a "Power loop" and "snap take-off"..
Is this some newly invented LM trade or..?


Both The F-22 and F-15 performs what we commonly call a maximum performance take off at the start of their routines, however the Raptors Max performance take off is exceptionally aggressive, as it snaps its nose violently to the vertical,

The powerloop however is what the commentator calls the maneuver where the Raptor rotates on one spot in the sky,

try to watch "inside the Nest" a documentary on the Raptor's demo team, there, each maneuver is elaborated and explained, its very informative in my oppinion.

as for max take off weight, its been discussed here that the Raptor is required to carry 18,000lbs of fuel on its demo, more than enough to relocate to a freindly base if needed

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 17:18
by haavarla
zero-one wrote:
haavarla wrote:What is a snap take-off?

Does it include the following:
Minimum take-off lenght?
Maximum Climb rate after Rotation?
High speed/low flying before Climbing?

And what is a Power loop??

I've seen hundreds of Vids and i've been to several Airshows.
But i have never heard about a "Power loop" and "snap take-off"..
Is this some newly invented LM trade or..?


Both The F-22 and F-15 performs what we commonly call a maximum performance take off at the start of their routines, however the Raptors Max performance take off is exceptionally aggressive, as it snaps its nose violently to the vertical,


There are many vids of the F-22 display. It rotate, then goes several 100 meters Down the runway to buildup speed/energy before it goes nose up. I fail to see what is so extrodinary about it.

The powerloop however is what the commentator calls the maneuver where the Raptor rotates on one spot in the sky,


Ok. A simple backflip at the end of the Climb then.


as for max take off weight, its been discussed here that the Raptor is required to carry 18,000lbs of fuel on its demo, more than enough to relocate to a freindly base if needed


i know. I read the F-22 Airshow rutine memo.

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 17:38
by zero-one
A lot of planes can point straight to the vertical and accelerate while climbing but very few can do it at take-off

Thats because in order to acheive this, the plane will rely solely on thrust, at take off where the plane is at its heaviest very few have the thrust required to acheive that kind of maneuver.

This is why most planes have what we call a Maximum take off weight that has to be strictly followed.


You're right about the "back flip at the end of a climb" though, but they call it a power loop so who are we to judge,

why do they call it a cobra, they could just call it "pointing the nose up to slow down then pitching it back down again"

currently imagining the comentator saying

"and now at show center its the backflip after the climb"
[backround music: Miley Cyrus: its the climb]


however this is an extreamly short climb, the F-22 also performs a backflip after a long climb after its take off.

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 18:11
by spazsinbad
'zero-one' said:
"...and now at show center its the backflip after the climb"
[backround music: Miley Cyrus: its the climb]..."

Is that like TWERKing in aircraft? :D What a change from this:



To this: (quite a climb)

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 18:32
by Prinz_Eugn
Oh god... this is where I go to get away from the rest of the internet!

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 18:41
by zero-one
Cant quite see the one who posted it, but I'm preatty sure I saw

The F-35 will be limited to Rafale or Typhoon like demos


Not that there is anything wrong with that, but the F-35 is not known for Sustained turn rates where these two aircrafts excel on,

The F-35 on the otherhand excels on high Alpha whereas the Typhoon and Rafale would be lucky to acheive half of the F-35s FCS AOA limits

I read Billy Flynn's statement comparing it to the F-16Vista if im not mistaken, or was it F-18 HARV, can't seem to find the link, Billy Flynn also said that the F-35 had nearly the same E-M diagrams as the F-18, with better acceleration at some parts of the envelope.
which is why i often watch the F-18s demos and imagine that the Lightning will do the same if not a bit better.

what do you guys think

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 19:26
by Raptor_claw
haavarla wrote:
The powerloop however is what the commentator calls the maneuver where the Raptor rotates on one spot in the sky,

Ok. A simple backflip at the end of the Climb then.
Would be easier to explain this with a picture, but I don't have the time.

A power loop is not the same as a "backflip". In a backflip (aka kulbit) the aircraft velocity vector (the path of the center-of-gravity) follows a more-or-less "straight" path and the aircraft rotates completely around that path. In aircraft terms, during a "flip" angle-of-attack increases to +90 then +179, then -179 (flying tail first), then -90, then back to through 0 to a normal range. Think of flipping a pancake - the cake as a whole goes straight up and comes straight down - the spinning of the cake has little effect on the trajectory.

In a power loop the aircraft c.g. actually makes a circle, just like in a normal "loop", but much smaller. IOW, if you traced out the path of the c.g. in the sky it would kind of resemble one of those "Support XYZ" ribbon magnets you see on cars. During the loop, AOA is held at a large positive, but nearly constant, value (~60 ballpark) during the whole event. As such, positive lift is maintained throughout (unlike during the extreme and negative AOA parts of the "flip"). The key being that during the whole event the aircraft is flying in a "normal" envelope and under positive control, unlike a true "flip" which is much more ballistic.

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 20:55
by kiwidingo
The cobra is an important part of the mating ritual of the flanker species. As they approach each other they immediately jettison all of their weapons and most of their fuel in order to perform the elaborate mating dance. The female of the species will then perform the cobra signaling to the male that she is submissive. Unfortunately the unarmed male is unable to take advantage of the situation but mysteriously, both flankers are now f****d.

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 21:14
by spazsinbad
Perhaps 'zero-one' was looking for this quote:

IN FOCUS: Lockheed claims F-35 kinematics ‘better than or equal to’ Typhoon or Super Hornet 07 Feb 2013 Dave Majumdar
"...If one were to overlay the energy-maneuverability (E-M) diagrams for the F/A-18, F-16 or Typhoon over the F-35's, "It is better. Comparable or better than every Western fourth-generation fighter out there," Flynn says. That applies even to the F-35 B and C models with their respective 7g and 7.5g limits. "You're not going to see any measurable difference between the aircraft," Flynn says. In terms of instantaneous and sustained turn rates and just about every other performance metric, the F-35 variants match or considerably exceed the capabilities of every fourth-generation fighter, he says...."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... et-382078/

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 21:18
by spazsinbad
'kiwidingo' maybe doze flankers need to land to do it?


Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 21:52
by cantaz
kiwidingo wrote:Unfortunately the unarmed male is unable to take advantage of the situation but mysteriously, both flankers are now f****d.


But wait, the gun! Maybe that's why some Sukhoi fanboys are obsessed with the possibility of a gun kill.

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2013, 23:13
by count_to_10
Prinz_Eugn wrote:Oh god... this is where I go to get away from the rest of the internet!

I'm with Eugn. I really don't need anyone to remind me of Mily's Pedo-bear dance.

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2013, 15:16
by haavarla
zero-one wrote:Cant quite see the one who posted it, but I'm preatty sure I saw

The F-35 will be limited to Rafale or Typhoon like demos


Not that there is anything wrong with that, but the F-35 is not known for Sustained turn rates where these two aircrafts excel on,

The F-35 on the otherhand excels on high Alpha whereas the Typhoon and Rafale would be lucky to acheive half of the F-35s FCS AOA limits

I read Billy Flynn's statement comparing it to the F-16Vista if im not mistaken, or was it F-18 HARV, can't seem to find the link, Billy Flynn also said that the F-35 had nearly the same E-M diagrams as the F-18, with better acceleration at some parts of the envelope.
which is why i often watch the F-18s demos and imagine that the Lightning will do the same if not a bit better.

what do you guys think


I didn't mean anything negative With that. I'm looking forward to see the F-35 on Dispaly. Just like i like seeing Gripen Rafale, F-15 and EF doing their dispaly on Airshow.

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2013, 17:05
by zero-one
I know, I did not take the Rafale or Typhoon demo comparison as a negative thing,

I mean those 2 war birds are deffinitely the best Air Superiority fighters on the European side of NATO, and their Demos are awsome to watch,

So if the F-35 can replicate those then great, I'm all for it.

I said earlier that the F-35 however is not known for Sustained turn rates where the 2 European birds Excel

However the latest episode of Test Pilot Tuesdays, Test Pilot Elliot Clemance says that this is one of the most common missconcepcions and that the F-35 is verry good at this regard.

This is one of the best under 1 minute videos on youtube


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2017, 19:15
by steve2267
F-35 to perform in Idaho Falls Air Show
By: Staff Writer Posted: Mar 09, 2017 09:06 AM MST Updated: Mar 09, 2017 09:06 AM MST


IDAHO FALLS, Idaho (KIFI/KIDK) - The U.S. Air Force will bring its F-35 Lightning II fighter to Idaho Falls' Extreme Blue Thunder Air Show this summer. The show is scheduled July 22-23.

Idaho Falls will be one of twelve cities in North America that will feature the Heritage Flight program. The program celebrates the 50th anniversary of the U.S. Air Force. The F-35 will perform alongside other fighter/attack aircraft from World War II, Korea, and Vietnam.

...

Source: http://www.localnews8.com/news/f-35-to- ... /385632460

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2017, 19:45
by steve2267
F-35 to make flying debut at Dayton Air Show
Barrie Barber Updated: 12:58 p.m Thursday, March 9, 2017

DAYTON

The Air Force’s newest stealth jet will fly a demonstration for the first at this year’s Vectren Dayton Air Show, organizers announced.

The F-35A Lightning II will fly in tandem with a World War II P-51 Mustang in a “heritage flight” at the air show June 24 and 25.

...

Source: http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/loc ... kxsGrBC6N/

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2017, 17:19
by wolfpak
The F-35 flew in formation (Heritage Flight) with a F-22 and P-51 last year at the Cleveland National Airshow. It may be a first for Dayton but not the air show circuit. The deal on what you get and how many demos/heritage flights you get is tied to show attendance and recruiting goals. For smaller shows you get one of the main demos but if you have a larger show you may get two or three. At Cleveland, Ohio they had the F-22 demo, the F-35 heritage flight and the Blues. This year at Youngstown, 70 miles away all we could get was the Thunderbirds. Would have thought we would have heard it on the web if they have developed a demo routine for the F-35 and if so then Dayton may be the first venue.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2017, 21:04
by yeswepromise
For the west coast folk there are quite a few good ones.

-China Lake will have a CTOL, STOVL, and CV on static. Should be a Dutch CTOL, UK STOVL, and a Vampire CV.
-Yuma will have 211 doing the demo and probably on static too.

-LA County Airshow will have one of the Edwards jets on static and probably an opening to the show with a supersonic pass (allegedly). Assuming 461 at this point.

-Chino will have the Heritage flight
-Huntington Beach will have the Heritage flight
-Miramar will probably have 211 again on static and demo
-Nellis will probably have a 422 or weapons school on static.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2017, 22:30
by steve2267
yeswepromise wrote:-LA County Airshow will have one of the Edwards jets on static and probably an opening to the show with a supersonic pass (allegedly). Assuming 461 at this point.


Do you have dates for the different Socal shows? (Or are they in the Heritage Flight demo announcement?)

Where will the LA County show be held? I ask because it would seem that if you do a supersonic pass anywhere over LA County... you're going to break an awful lot of windows and raise h*ll with the public / neighbors. BUT... if they were to do it... any chance it would be a -B -- STOVL takeoff / supersonic pass / VL?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2017, 23:27
by yeswepromise
Yuma is March 17 and 18
China Lake is March 18 and 19

LA County (Palmdale - Fox field) March 25 and 26

Chino is May 6 and 7
Miramar September 23 and 24
Huntington Beach September 29 and 30 and October 1
Nellis November 11 and 12


As far as the Palmdale show, they pop the barrier all the time up there.
Last Edwards show (2009) they did one to open the show.
From what I heard, it won't be a STOVL. Should be a CTOL from 461

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2017, 23:57
by quicksilver
yeswepromise wrote:-LA County Airshow will have one of the Edwards jets on static and probably an opening to the show with a supersonic pass (allegedly). Assuming 461 at this point.


There aren't going to be any supersonic passes at any airshow anywhere in CONUS. And don't show us pictures of shock collars... :roll:

Where do people come up with this crap?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2017, 01:13
by yeswepromise
quicksilver wrote:
yeswepromise wrote:-LA County Airshow will have one of the Edwards jets on static and probably an opening to the show with a supersonic pass (allegedly). Assuming 461 at this point.


There aren't going to be any supersonic passes at any airshow anywhere in CONUS. And don't show us pictures of shock collars... :roll:

Where do people come up with this crap?



I assure you I don't post nonsense here...I read a lot of it, but I don't contribute to it.


Here is a video of the one at Edwards 2009 that I mentioned a few posts up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV1EszDKPJ0
here is a second one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0WnUZaMvZU
And for good measure a third one with better audio (on the commentary at least) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKs34tXzbqs

I was there in '09. By the way, this is probably one of the first times they showed AA-1 to the public. Figured I'd keep this a little F-35 specific. Here is a photo -> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _house.jpg
I'll be at Fox field in a couple weeks too. Maybe they changed their mind. I'm not sure... Last I heard it was still on.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2017, 06:56
by quicksilver
Where's "the pass"?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2017, 15:08
by yeswepromise
Above. It passed over Edwards.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2017, 15:21
by quicksilver
We clearly have a different reference for what constitutes an air show 'pass'...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2017, 10:47
by thepointblank
The F-35A is slated to make a second appearance in a row at the Abbotsford Air Show in Abbotsford, British Columbia, Canada:

https://www.facebook.com/AbbotsfordAirs ... NE&fref=nf

This time, it will be a flight demo, instead of just a static display.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2017, 23:53
by spazsinbad
F-35C static at China Lake & F-35? LA County plus other info about other airshows:

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... -lancaster

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2017, 03:05
by yeswepromise
Just got home from China Lake.

AN-02 - 323TES
BK-04 - 17(R)
CF-32 - VX-9 ...(we can update the database I guess. :)

The pilots can't say enough good stuff about the planes, especially the Dutch.

all on static. Good time seeing all 3 variants at the same show for the first time. Fox field a week from today. 461 DT should have one on static.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 07:25
by geforcerfx
F-35B at the Yuma show at night


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2017, 00:21
by yeswepromise
Glad things worked out this year at the Palmdale airshow.

AF-01 is on static. Lots of mission markings on it now including two birds. 1000+ hours on the airframe, so it's starting to look pretty worn out.


At 9:30 AM an F-35 (not sure which... but probably AF-07) went supersonic somewhere high above Fox Field and "boomed" the Antelope Valley. Even the locals were surprised at how good this one was.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2017, 03:49
by johnwill
The Los Angeles County Airshow is not the Palmdale airshow. It was held at Fox Field, which is in Lancaster.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2017, 04:10
by yeswepromise
johnwill wrote:The Los Angeles County Airshow is not the Palmdale airshow. It was held at Fox Field, which is in Lancaster.



;P close enough for me.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 23:06
by spazsinbad
No plans for F-35 to fly at Paris Air Show [GREAT VIDEO of F-35B HOVERING CLOSE UP at URL]
26 Apr 2017 Valerie Insinna

"WASHINGTON — The F-35 will sit out the Paris Air Show this June, the joint program office confirmed Tuesday.

A spokesman for the F-35 Joint Program Office told Defense News that — to his knowledge — the U.S. Air Force and U.S. Marine Corps had not been invited to bring the F-35 to the Paris Air Show this year, and as such the JPO is not planning on making an appearance....

...Unlike the United Kingdom — which is an international partner, customer and steadfast supporter of the F-35 program — France has remained uninterested in the aircraft, investing instead in its indigenous Dassault Rafale.

Although the U.S. government won’t be showing off the F-35, Lockheed Martin almost certainly will make the aircraft a focal point of its marketing during the Paris Air Show. The company is entrenched in talks with Belgium, Finland, Switzerland and Spain about potential purchases of the aircraft."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/no- ... s-air-show

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2017, 17:54
by mixelflick
I think we're all waiting for the gloves to come off. AKA post stall maneuvering, J-turns etc... The Russians aren't the only one's capable of such breathtaking maneuvers..

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2017, 22:28
by gideonic
mixelflick wrote:I think we're all waiting for the gloves to come off. AKA post stall maneuvering, J-turns etc... The Russians aren't the only one's capable of such breathtaking maneuvers..

I would really love to see a Block 3F airshow, no holds barred. It will probably only happen in 2018 the earliest though :(

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2017, 23:40
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:
No plans for F-35 to fly at Paris Air Show [GREAT VIDEO of F-35B HOVERING CLOSE UP at URL]
26 Apr 2017 Valerie Insinna

"WASHINGTON — The F-35 will sit out the Paris Air Show this June, the joint program office confirmed Tuesday.

A spokesman for the F-35 Joint Program Office told Defense News that — to his knowledge — the U.S. Air Force and U.S. Marine Corps had not been invited to bring the F-35 to the Paris Air Show this year, and as such the JPO is not planning on making an appearance....

...Unlike the United Kingdom — which is an international partner, customer and steadfast supporter of the F-35 program — France has remained uninterested in the aircraft, investing instead in its indigenous Dassault Rafale.

Although the U.S. government won’t be showing off the F-35, Lockheed Martin almost certainly will make the aircraft a focal point of its marketing during the Paris Air Show. The company is entrenched in talks with Belgium, Finland, Switzerland and Spain about potential purchases of the aircraft."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/no- ... s-air-show


..... B, F, S and S could be a good sales tour for the a/c in England, we can wait and see!
:)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2017, 01:32
by zerion

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2017, 06:45
by hornetfinn
zerion wrote:F-35 was invited to Paris

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/par ... ight-demos


If true, I think somebody made a very bad call in deciding against sending F-35 to Paris. Being one of the most important air shows in the world close to many potential buyer nations, it would be better IMO to participate. Maybe it still will appear there after some consideration, especially if JPO was not notified.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2017, 07:54
by popcorn
I don't think any ongoing deals/discussions with countries interested in acquiring the F-35 will be adversely affected in any way by the jet's absence in Paris. Meaningful discussions and negotiations are conducted out of the limelight though an airshow would be a good venue to announce a successful deal.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2017, 20:22
by neptune
F-35 Will Skip Paris Air Show and RIAT, Program Office Says

Aerospace Daily & Defense Report

Lockheed Martin’s F-35, the star of two major international air shows in the United Kingdom last year, will likely skip the Paris Air Show and Royal International Air Tattoo (RIAT) this

......looks like some comments are evolving to include no US at RIAT next time?
:)

...I guess they are using that time now at Lakenheath!
:wink:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2017, 02:53
by Dragon029
Someone must have failed to email along the invitation to the Paris Air Show; after the organisers stated that they had sent one, the USAF at least have now stated they will be having at least one F-35A go to Paris:

http://aviationweek.com/defense/usaf-de ... s-air-show

WASHINGTON – The U.S. Air Force announced May 6 that it will send the F-35A to the Paris Air Show, less than two weeks after a service spokeswoman and the F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) told Aviation Week and other news outlets that the fifth-generation aircraft would skip the event. "The F-35A strengthens partnerships and improves regional stability," said Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. David Goldfein in a May 6 press release announcing the aircraft's upcoming ...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2017, 07:22
by spazsinbad
Damned if you don't then Damned if you do becuz - COST? Everything secret but - terrorism you say - read all about it....
Five Weeks Out, Few Details in Place for F-35’s Paris Debut
11 May 2017 Lara Seligman

"Five weeks out from the Paris Air Show, the U.S. Air Force still doesn’t know which F-35A units will go, how many aircraft will make the trip, or what exactly the planes will do when they get there.

The Air Force is still “in the planning stages” for the F-35’s debut appearance at Europe’s largest aerospace showcase, held every other year at Le Bourget Airport, according to spokeswoman Ann Stefanek. She could not confirm whether the F-35 will participate in a flying display, or if the aircraft will be featured in the static park....

...This year, organizers have emphasized that they are beefing up security measures at the Paris Air Show, which runs from June 19 to June 25, following a series of terror attacks in France over the last 24 months. Tougher security checks will be in place, and more than 1,000 private and state security personnel, including soldiers and police, will protect the event during the show week, Aviation Week recently reported....

...Another unanswered question is: what is the cost to taxpayers of sending the F-35A to the Paris Air Show? It’s hard to say for sure without knowing how many jets will go and what events they will support. But we do know that the total cost for the F-35As to participate in RIAT was $2.5 million, including $1.5 million paid by Lockheed Martin, according to Stefanek. That includes temporary duty costs for all necessary maintenance and operations personnel, as well as the flying hours for two F-35As, a C-17 that transported the crews to and from RIAT, and two KC-135s that refueled the aircraft in flight. The cost of the Paris trip will likely be along those same lines....

...until May 6, the Pentagon appeared to have no plans to send the stealth fighter to Le Bourget. In fact, multiple DOD officials told Aviation Week and other news outlets in late April that the F-35 would not make an appearance at the show. Some even said the aircraft had not been invited, which turned out to be incorrect: Vincent Gorry, international director of the French Aerospace Industries Association and the Paris Air Show, talked with Aviation Week in March when he visited the U.S. to speak to officials about the F-35’s potential presence at the show.

Still, the Air Force maintains that the move is not a reversal.

"The F-35A strengthens partnerships and improves regional stability," said Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. David Goldfein, according to the May 6 announcement. "We welcome the opportunity to further demonstrate the revolutionary capabilities of this aircraft."

The Marine Corps F-35Bs will not participate in the Paris Air Show, as Aviation Week first reported April 26. However, Lt. Gen. Jon Davis, deputy commandant of aviation, will attend the show to represent the Marine Corps, according to spokeswoman Capt. Sarah Burns."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/blog/five-weeks ... aris-debut

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2017, 13:46
by mixelflick
Screw the Paris airshow, they need to bring the F-35 on tour in the states - to show the taxpayer just what we're getting for our money! We all know it's capable of some nifty maneuvers, even with the current (limited) software.

The public has been fed so much anti-F-35 propaganda, they need to be wowed and amazed by this jet. Beyond the youtube videos a member created here (Busting Myths), I see little in the way of setting the record straight. If they could just open up the envelope a little or work with the F-35B, I'm willing to bet public perception improves.

My $2 cents

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2017, 03:53
by geforcerfx
Prob the best F-35B display I have seen, same basic stuff but someone opened the taps a bit more, min rad was more aggressive then before and the takeoff was a lot more aggressive than previous showings for the B.


My favorite video of Chino, prob the best i have seen the F-35A do at a show.


I don't expect a full routine next year, but maybe have the heritage flight at a few more shows and let the F-35 go a bit crazier, more vertical throw in some more rolling and keep those sharp turns and give us more, would prob do wonders for the jets opinion among average people. The Paris show, if they are flying, they gotta show something, doing the basic circles and high speed isn't gonna impress much, get some hard vertical's, hard turns and let the afterburner run free and they should leave a good impression.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2017, 07:32
by spazsinbad
Thanks for the videos 'geforcefx' and meanwhile back at the PARIS ranch mysteries are afoot. Who cares who flies the 35s?
Details on F-35A trip to Paris Air Show begin to emerge
17 May 2017 Valerie Insinna

"WASHINGTON — Two F-35As will go to the Paris Air Show this June, but they won’t be flown by U.S. Air Force pilots, a service official said Wednesday. One F-35A from Hill Air Force Base, Utah, and another from Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, are currently slated to conduct flying demonstrations at Paris Air Show, said Col. David Lyons, commander of the 388th Fighter Wing....

...Lyons added that the two jets will be flown by test pilots from F-35 prime contractor Lockheed Martin during their stint in Paris, but was not able to comment on why airmen would not be piloting the aircraft....

...An Air Force spokesman said there were no specific concerns about the aircraft flying in the show.

“We have processes, procedures and networks in place to ensure that we can fly where we want to fly and when we want to fly, and we’re not concerned about it,” he said. The Air Force does not always rely on pilots from its operational squadrons to conduct demos at air shows. For instance, its heritage flight team flew F-35s at the Royal International Air Tattoo in England last year."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/det ... -to-emerge

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2017, 08:51
by Dragon029
http://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft ... s-air-show

The Air Force does not yet have an F-35 demonstration profile for air shows due to the limited number of aircraft, pilots and maintenance professionals, service spokesman Capt. Mark Graff said. The service plans to develop and perform F-35 aerial demonstrations – akin to performances by the Air Force Thunderbirds and F-22 Raptor Demonstration Team – beginning in 2018, building on lessons learned from the performance at Paris, he said.

Lockheed, on the other hand, has been developing an F-35 demonstration profile for some time, and the pilots will now begin practicing the routine at the company’s F-35 production facility in Fort Worth, Texas, according to company spokesman Mike Rein.

“While we look forward to demonstrating the unparalleled maneuverability of the F-35 to the world, we remain singularly focused on bringing the full combat capability of the F-35 to our nation,” Graff said. “We will build our demonstration profile based on the experiences and lessons learned from F-35 participation in other air shows and the Lockheed Martin demonstration at the 2017 Paris Air Show.”


This could be exciting - I just wish they flew with a Block 3F or otherwise G-unlocked aircraft.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2017, 09:01
by gideonic
Dragon029 wrote: This could be exciting - I just wish they flew with a Block 3F or otherwise G-unlocked aircraft.

+1, really looking forward to it :applause:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2017, 09:14
by hornetfinn
I see that both LM and USAF see the Paris Air Show as an important event. I doubt any Air Force is affected by air show demonstrations, but public image is extremely important to both as politicians are affected by it more and more. I too am eagerly waiting for full air show demonstration by F-35s... :drool:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2017, 15:01
by rheonomic
Almost seems to me like the decision not to go to Paris was reversed by DOD due to pressure by LM...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2017, 21:53
by spazsinbad
U.S. Air Force and Lockheed Martin Statements on F-35A Aerial Demonstration at Paris Air Show
17 May 2019 USAF/LM PR

"U.S. Air Force Statement:
Due to the Air Force's limited number of aircraft, pilots and maintenance professionals, we have decided not to develop an F-35 demonstration profile for airshows this year.While we look forward to demonstrating the unparalleled maneuverability of the F-35 to the world, we remain singularly focused on bringing the full combat capability of the F-35 to our nation.However, Lockheed Martin pilots have been building a flight demonstration in simulators and will now practice the demonstration in advance of the Paris Air Show.

The Air Force plans to develop and perform F-35 demonstrations beginning in 2018.We will build our demonstration profile based on the experiences and lessons learned from F-35 participation in other airshows and the Lockheed Martin demonstration at the 2017 Paris Air Show.

It is important to make clear the distinction between the F-35 Heritage Flight Team and Air Force demonstration teams, such as the Air Force Thunderbirds and the F-22 Raptor Demonstration Team.A demonstration involves an aircraft performing aerobatics, while the F-35 Heritage Flight Team's flight profile includes only straight-pass flyovers alongside other aircraft.In order to perform aerobatics, pilots and aircraft must be trained and certified to do so.

For background, in 2016 the Air Force stood up the F-35 Heritage Flight Team at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, as a first step in showcasing this amazing fighter jet to the public.The team performed at 15 airshows in 2016 and are scheduled for 14 airshows in 2017.


Lockheed Martin Statement:
Lockheed Martin is proud to team with the USAF to provide the first ever F-35A aerial demonstration at the Paris Air Show. We’ve been working on developing an F-35A demonstration profile and our demonstration test pilot has been practicing the routine in the simulator.We are now ready to begin practice flights at our F-35 production facility in Fort Worth in the coming days to be ready to showcase the F-35 capabilities at the Paris Airshow."

Source: https://www.f35.com/news/detail/u.s.-ai ... onstration

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2017, 22:50
by pmi
U.S. Air Force and Lockheed Martin Statements on F-35A Aerial Demonstration at Paris Air Show
17 May 2019 USAF/LM PR


Hmmm...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2017, 23:09
by spazsinbad
I give in 'pmi' - what does 'hmmm' mean?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2017, 23:38
by castlebravo
spazsinbad wrote:I give in 'pmi' - what does 'hmmm' mean?


He's wondering how/why you are posting an article from 2019. Also, how did the midterm elections turn out a couple years from now?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2017, 00:40
by spazsinbad
Simple early morning fumble fingers on a laptop keyboard. I am rushed sometimes so my own POORfreading is Poor! So he could say so - what's the big deal? I could correct the year but will leave it in for comprehension of comments about it.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2017, 16:19
by steve2267
It is most probably in LM's best $ales interest to demo the F-35 @ Paris this year. I would not be surprise to learn that some sort of deal was swung where LM will foot most (if not all) the bill for sending the F-35 to Paris if the USAF would provide the aircraft. It would be interesting if, given the current state and progress of flight testing, the software-nature (i.e. upgradeability) of the F-35, and the current stability of 3F, LM got the green light to boot the USAF-loaned aircraft to -3F for the purpose of the Paris Air Show. THAT could also be a huge selling point -- "Look, we uploaded a new software revision and flew the jet. This is how you can add additional capabilities in the future if you buy the F-35." (But, yes, there would be some risk if something bad happened, so maybe the don't fly 3F.)

It would have been nice to have the Killer Bee flying as well. A STOVL takeoff / supersonic flyover (bust every pane of glass around the airport, though), vertical landing would be killer. Maybe they could even do a vertical takeoff / super pass / vertical landing. I think that would be historical, no?

But I'd really like to see some sort of display where you embed a thermocouple in the tarmac connected to a HUGE LED temperature display. Then have an AV-8B, V-22, and F-35B hover / land over the thermocouple to demonstrate how the temps of the F-35B compare. I'm thinking that in-your-face demonstration would have to shut up many of the haters. But probably not, haters will always hate.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2017, 21:45
by doge

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2017, 01:22
by zerion
Thought F-35 had better range than F-18 SH.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2017, 01:29
by spazsinbad
The interrabble is populated by F-35 informational numnuts making stupid graphics because 'they might PUG a Chef'. :doh:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2017, 02:13
by wrightwing
zerion wrote:Thought F-35 had better range than F-18 SH.

It does, by a considerable margin.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2017, 04:09
by SpudmanWP
wrightwing wrote:
zerion wrote:Thought F-35 had better range than F-18 SH.

It does, by a considerable margin.


The graph is showing unarmed ferry range, not combat range.

Same goes for speed, the SH CANNOT get above m1.2 while armed with 2 bombs & 2 AIMs (no eft).

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2017, 06:33
by hornetfinn
SpudmanWP wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
zerion wrote:Thought F-35 had better range than F-18 SH.

It does, by a considerable margin.


The graph is showing unarmed ferry range, not combat range.

Same goes for speed, the SH CANNOT get above m1.2 while armed with 2 bombs & 2 AIMs (no eft).


To be accurate the graph is showing unarmed ferry range for SH. For Su-30 it shows carrying 4 AAMs which are launched at half distance and flying optimum profile. For F-35 it shows 2xcombat radius with full internal weapons and including combat maneuvering and pretty serious artificial restrictions AFAIK (end of life engines and 5% fuel flow penalty). Same with speed also for Su-30, although that is without any weapons and without TVC nozzles (with them the top speed is slightly lower Mach 1.9).

I hate these comparison graphs where incomparable configurations are compared directly. Yes, without any weapons or other unnecessary things (like EFTs), SH and Su-30 are faster than F-35. Of course in combat configurations with weapons and fuel tanks etc, F-35 is faster and flies much further. In some configurations the difference is huge. Of course top speed and even ferry range are pretty irrelevant for fighter jet anyway.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2017, 10:10
by doge
True spec...
I would also like to know.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2017, 09:23
by spazsinbad
Just another repetition of the same bulldust by lazy so-called aviation reporters but what can one expect from AvWEAK?
Paris Air Show: A Showcase For Defense Competition
24 May 2017 Jen DiMascio, James Drew, Lara Seligman and Tony Osborne

"The indecision over the F-35’s debut at this year’s Paris Air Show is perhaps indicative of where the market is now—poised for exciting display but surrounded by uncertainty and increasing global competition....

...In March, officials from the French aerospace industries association (GIFAS) visited the U.S. Two years ago, [wut? in July 2016?] they noted that the fifth-generation fighter had its debut at the Farnborough Airshow in the UK, and it did so in grand fashion—bringing the show to a halt when the F-35B hovered in midair. This year, with a new president in office, they were worried that time for committing to bring the stealth aircraft to the show was running short.

It took several stops and starts before officials announced that Lockheed Martin pilots will fly a U.S. Air Force F-35A, performing aerobatics in the skies above Le Bourget Airport.

The demonstration will showcase the maneuverability of Lockheed’s fifth-generation fighter and perhaps lay to rest claims that the F-35 cannot match some fourth-generation aircraft in power and performance. The Joint Strike Fighter’s maneuverability was famously called into question in July 2015, when a blogger got his hands on a report stating that the aircraft was outclassed by the F-16 in mock aerial combat. [Oh for crying out loud - get a grip on your information!]

Lockheed is still trying to boost production orders to reduce the cost of a single fighter to the $80 million mark. New customers for such a high-end fighter are few, but Poland recently expressed a need for a fifth-generation fighter with long-range precision weapons to counter the Russian threat...." [there should be a computer game - punch av reporters]

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/paris-a ... ompetition

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2017, 13:25
by zero-one
The media will always use the "F-16 can beat an F-35 in a dogfight" nonsense until F-35 gun kill HUD shots of F-16s gets published.

This is partly due to the response of the DOD, the JPO, LM and F-35 defenders like us. When the news came out instead of countering the point head on, most of us came up with answers like:
"the enemy will be shot down long before the merge anyway"
"the F-35's new weapons system can allow it to shoot without much maneuvering anyway"
<sarcasm>
and my personal favorite
</sarcasm>
The F-35 is not a maneuverability airplane, its not an F-22, it is designed to give the war fighter unparalleled situational awareness.

Yeah pretty sure every single F-35 pilot in a gun fight will be fully, situationally aware that he's loosing the fight.

There was only one major source of a sound acceptable rebuttal. It came from the RNAF. When Major Hanche, published his ACM experience in an F-35A, it was the only acceptable counter to the War is boring.

His accounts of the F-35's performance gave it's pilots confidence that if the unlikely would ever happen, they can come out on top.

Sadly it was too little too late. But I think LM is trying to slowly turn the tide. the F-35A's appearance in this airshow with a wider maneuvering envelope should slowly but surely erase the stigma attached to the F-35.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2017, 14:53
by zhangmdev
Why should DoD, JPO, LM, etc care about what media/bloggers/social media influencers say? It is not like funding is depended on the "public opinion", or the project can be voted to be scrapped. Obviously the ship has sailed years ago, and there is no option but carry on. The critics have nothing to offer other than criticism.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2017, 15:22
by mixelflick
zerion wrote:Thought F-35 had better range than F-18 SH.


This!

18,000lbs of fuel, ONE engine and .... it can't our range a SH? Ridiculous... Also, the Mach 1.6 vs. 1.8 vs. 2.34 is WAY misleading. How about we add 5,000lbs weapons load slung under the wings of the SH and Flanker? How fast are they going then? How about pulling 9 g's with that weapon load? The F-35 can. The others?

Nope.

Besides, it's what you can't see that's most impressive about the F-35. I think we all need to come to the realization that Joe Q. Public is always going to judge her on speed, acceleration etc. and be oblivious to what we know is more important. It would be really sweet though to take the gloves off insofar as high alpha maneuvers, etc. You can get a sense for its potential in those sharp, instantaneous turns it now performs.

Oh how I want to shut these F-35 haters up. I was no fan of the F-35 prior, but now I'm on board. This aircraft isn't getting a fair shake...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2017, 16:36
by zero-one
zhangmdev wrote:Why should DoD, JPO, LM, etc care about what media/bloggers/social media influencers say? It is not like funding is depended on the "public opinion", or the project can be voted to be scrapped. Obviously the ship has sailed years ago, and there is no option but carry on. The critics have nothing to offer other than criticism.


Well apparently the DOD cares a bit about the public's consensus. Why else would they bother spending millions annually on airshows public displays? recruitment, boosting morale, polishing up their public image. How many pilots have said that they joined the service because they fell in love with planes after going to an airshow as a child (or watching Topgun)

The JSF program also has one of the most damaged public reputations ever. Its reputation inside the DOD is way better because they have the actual information. But how many governments (including the US) have threatened to cancel or reduce their commitment on the JSF?

Was it all based on actual info? No, I remember watching a senate hearing on the JSF in Australia where the senator was blurting out information from Carlo Kopp, CARLO KOPP!!!!! Seriously, they are basing their assessment on the Australia's JSF program on Carlo Kopp's blog!!!

Imagine that, what if Australia reduced its F-35 buy by 20% partly due to Carlo Kopp's assessment? What if another know nothing senator reading that the F-35 lost to an F-16 causes the program funding to be reviewed (again) causing delays. As we all know, delays will cost you more money which could result in fewer buys.

Sadly the guys who can affect the program (politicians) don't always have the top secret numbers and performance figures on their lower left drawer. Sometimes the research people on the office of these guys end up reading War is Boring.

Now don't tell me that senators can't do anything to affect this program cause we all know how close McCain was to axing the B model. Also if the senators can't affect it, then why did the RAAF bother showing up in the Australian hearing anyway. why not just let the senator think what he thinks. Its not gona affect the program anyway.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2017, 17:23
by spazsinbad
Compared to the US system of government Australian Federal Parliament is a bit different. A SENATOR can be any person on the ticket of a very minor party elected with preferences with primary mandatory votes 'not very much'. Probably in the case you refer the Senator was from the GREEN party which at the moment can carry some weight, even though they are a minor party; but in conjunction with other even more minor party senators are able to influence some Senate votes.

A recent Senate hearing on the F-35 had one Independent Senator reading from an APA transcript of questions IIRC. This Senator has few staff and is not a Defence expert, so one can understand 'to make waves' he needs to be 'controversial'.

IF the transcripts of Senate hearings are read it is clear what the Major Party Senators think of Air Power Australia. The two major parties Liberal (in power with the Country Party in coalition) and Labor have no real issues with buying the F-35 because long ago it was agreed DEFENCE should not be a partisan political debate - such as in Canada - for example.

Australia has freedom of speech but mandatory voting both Local, State & Federal. A lot of weird statements are reported for the 'news' value but that is about it. Australian Media has thought that APA had some value but nowadays it seems they are non-existent - perhaps I do not follow enough OzMeedja these days. Dunno. Anyway the F-35 is safe in Oz - no worries.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2017, 00:55
by smsgtmac
Paris Air Show practice over Carswell started today. One or two sessions. I was in a 'no camera' zone, but perhaps others caught it.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2017, 06:36
by Dragon029
Did you see the whole thing - was there anything particularly noteworthy?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2017, 07:51
by geforcerfx
Nothing uploaded today from fortworth

but i did find this

Can't climb...right

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2017, 08:41
by hornetfinn
zhangmdev wrote:Why should DoD, JPO, LM, etc care about what media/bloggers/social media influencers say? It is not like funding is depended on the "public opinion", or the project can be voted to be scrapped. Obviously the ship has sailed years ago, and there is no option but carry on. The critics have nothing to offer other than criticism.


Because politicians control the money and have ultimate decision power in most countries. Politicians are affected by public opinion and public image very much as it directly affects their own political fate. Just look at the sorry situation in Canada. I think public opinion is now more influential to politicians than ever before. That's why politicians love to Tweet and use social media themselves.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2017, 13:02
by smsgtmac
Dragon029 wrote:Did you see the whole thing - was there anything particularly noteworthy?

Glimpses and lots of sound with buildings in the way around lunchtime (just like when they worked ip F-16 routines. Seemed rather short, but I was working. Heard some stuff hours later but I was inside a building. If history continues repeating I expect regular performances of at least bits and pieces possibly building to full roitine right up until Paris. Somebody will get some shots.They always do.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2017, 15:52
by scx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daiLrGm59o8

Training for the Paris air show? :D

Edit: also, it's interesting if it's 3i or 3f, if there are still some restrictions..and i think it's the first time we see the F-35 doing a Pedal turn in a video.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2017, 16:57
by doge
scx wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daiLrGm59o8

Training for the Paris air show? :D

Edit: also, it's interesting if it's 3i or 3f, if there are still some restrictions..and i think it's the first time we see the F-35 doing a Pedal turn in a video.


Great video!
Maneuver at around 1:40 sec. I saw it for the first time.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2017, 18:09
by geforcerfx
scx wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daiLrGm59o8

Training for the Paris air show? :D

Edit: also, it's interesting if it's 3i or 3f, if there are still some restrictions..and i think it's the first time we see the F-35 doing a Pedal turn in a video.


The jets in Paris will be 3i since they are USAF active jets, only test jets have 3f onboard atm

That routine is looking good, bit more aggressive than the normal stuff for sure, 22 second min rad turn in there, that's 7 seconds faster than the F-35B has ever done it.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2017, 09:00
by Dragon029
Here's a stabilised copy of the above Fort Worth footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FPHi8Mq7Ds

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2017, 11:23
by doge
Dragon029 wrote:Here's a stabilised copy of the above Fort Worth footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FPHi8Mq7Ds

Easy to see! Thanks! F-35 fantastic flight.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2017, 13:45
by hythelday
Pfft, not impressed compared to THIS:
https://youtu.be/Z57oMS-tydk?t=35

:devil:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2017, 15:31
by steve2267
hythelday wrote:Pfft, not impressed compared to THIS:
https://youtu.be/Z57oMS-tydk?t=35

:devil:


Huh? Color me confused. Why not impressed? Because a Mig 23 has a tailchute? :shrug:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2017, 16:36
by gc
Amazing to see what the F-35s can do with updated CLAWs. Eagerly awaiting block 3F jets with 50k feet, mach, 9G and 50 deg AoA performance envelope.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2017, 17:31
by hythelday
steve2267 wrote:
hythelday wrote:Pfft, not impressed compared to THIS:
https://youtu.be/Z57oMS-tydk?t=35

:devil:


Huh? Color me confused. Why not impressed? Because a Mig 23 has a tailchute? :shrug:


Because Sprey told us Flogger could do circles around F-35.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2017, 17:36
by sferrin
hythelday wrote:
steve2267 wrote:
hythelday wrote:Pfft, not impressed compared to THIS:
https://youtu.be/Z57oMS-tydk?t=35

:devil:


Huh? Color me confused. Why not impressed? Because a Mig 23 has a tailchute? :shrug:


Because Sprey told us Flogger could do circles around F-35.



I was told the F-105 could maneuver as well as an F-35. So disappoint.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2017, 17:54
by hythelday
sferrin wrote:I was told the F-105 could maneuver as well as an F-35. So disappoint.


Regarding which one? :D

Anyway looking forward to the actual performance. Wonder if the haters will try to play "kinematics won't save it from *insert wunderwaffe name here*!!!"

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2017, 18:06
by sferrin
hythelday wrote:
sferrin wrote:I was told the F-105 could maneuver as well as an F-35. So disappoint.


Regarding which one? :D

Anyway looking forward to the actual performance. Wonder if the haters will try to play "kinematics won't save it from *insert wunderwaffe name here*!!!"



While at the same time telling us kinematics will save *insert wunderwaffe name here* from stealth aircraft. :wink:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2017, 18:46
by smsgtmac
Just caught today's show driving in to the Carswell commissary. Routine appears to now be longer and lower. Can't wait for the next videos.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2017, 19:47
by wrightwing
1:17 to 1:38 was pretty darn impressive to.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2017, 21:11
by Ztex
A little peek-a-boo during today's Paris demo practice!

Image

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 01:43
by neptune
"Two F-35As will go to the Paris Air Show this June, but they won’t be flown by U.S. Air Force pilots, .... One F-35A from Hill Air Force Base, Utah, and another from Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, are currently slated to conduct flying demonstrations at Paris Air Show ...... the two jets will be flown by test pilots from F-35 prime contractor Lockheed Martin during their stint in Paris (as PR for LM?)....."

Block 3I was available for the Air Force IOC of the F-35A; Block 3F (in testing) is a requirement for the Navy IOC of the F-35C in 2018ish. Block 3I is "G" limited to 7Gs for the F-35A??

..refreshing my memory!
:wink:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 02:05
by jetblast16
Watched the video (couple of times), the one from Forth Worth of the 'A' getting ready for the Paris air show. Very impressive. G-limited to 7, this jet is very agile. The crackling, thunderous sound off that F-135 engine in full blower is...awesome. I can't wait to see this jet in person, particularly when they clear the in service 'A's to 9 Gs. With full stealth, cosmic avionics and some serious maneuvering potential, the F-35 is one sneaky little jet:)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 02:57
by quicksilver
neptune wrote:"Two F-35As will go to the Paris Air Show this June, but they won’t be flown by U.S. Air Force pilots, .... One F-35A from Hill Air Force Base, Utah, and another from Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, are currently slated to conduct flying demonstrations at Paris Air Show ...... the two jets will be flown by test pilots from F-35 prime contractor Lockheed Martin during their stint in Paris (as PR for LM?)....."

Block 3I was available for the Air Force IOC of the F-35A; Block 3F (in testing) is a requirement for the Navy IOC of the F-35C in 2018ish. Block 3I is "G" limited to 7Gs for the F-35A??

..refreshing my memory!
:wink:


700/1.2/7G/50 alpha

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 03:16
by spazsinbad
Block Plan F-35A PURPLE

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 03:26
by SpudmanWP
Image

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 03:34
by madrat
A pair of F-35Cs overflew Pensacola NAS this morning at 10:00AM. I didn't catch the significance.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 06:29
by doge
It's rolling quite. @@(Rolling point 0:45, 6:00, 6:50, 8:00, 8:20)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 09:04
by neptune
SpudmanWP wrote:Image


Ok, kind of my point......, Lrip 8 is "finishing" delivering (2016) 43? new planes with Block 3F capabilities and Lrip 9 is "starting" to deliver 56? new planes with Block 3F capabilities (100ish? overall Block 3F during 2017/ now), both from FW, so.... why are Air Force "3I (in service)", tripping to Paris, instead of LM "3F" FW planes yet to be bought by the services?

No doubt LM could be practicing with "3I" (7G) up at FW but why, when "3F" (9G) are out on the flight line?

Could this be a "break-in" period required for the new F-135s straight from the factory? Has anyone captured the production sequence number/ bureau number, etc. from the LM "practice" planes?

Inquiring minds want to know??
:wink:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 09:20
by Dragon029
doge wrote:It's rolling quite.

Seems like the pilot very much is flying for practice (in this flight, trying to nail his aileron roll reversal routine). I'm hoping the final routine has a bit more high alpha in it though (bring that slow pass across more of the runway before powering out).

neptune wrote:Ok, kind of my point......, Lrip 8 is "finishing" delivering (2016) 43? new planes with Block 3F capabilities and Lrip 9 is "starting" to deliver 56? new planes with Block 3F capabilities (100ish? overall Block 3F during 2017/ now), both from FW, so.... why are Air Force "3I (in service)", tripping to Paris, instead of LM "3F" FW planes yet to be bought by the services?

No doubt LM could be practicing with "3I" (7G) up at FW but why, when "3F" (9G) are out on the flight line?


The LRIP 8 jets aren't Block 3F jets - they have TR2 which will allow them to just download and run it, but they don't have the software yet and LRIP 8 jets still require hardware modifications to reach a "final" configuration (though this shouldn't affect their combat capability; it'd just be minor things for ease of maintenance, increasing the lifespan of certain components, etc).

The only jets that can pull 9G today are flown by LM as part of the test fleet.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 10:12
by quicksilver
neptune wrote:
Ok, kind of my point......, Lrip 8 is "finishing" delivering (2016) 43? new planes with Block 3F capabilities and Lrip 9 is "starting" to deliver 56? new planes with Block 3F capabilities (100ish? overall Block 3F during 2017/ now), both from FW, so.... why are Air Force "3I (in service)", tripping to Paris, instead of LM "3F" FW planes yet to be bought by the services?

No doubt LM could be practicing with "3I" (7G) up at FW but why, when "3F" (9G) are out on the flight line?

Could this be a "break-in" period required for the new F-135s straight from the factory? Has anyone captured the production sequence number/ bureau number, etc. from the LM "practice" planes?

Inquiring minds want to know??
:wink:


Flight clearances...3F clearances dont happen until all the flight test is complete and the USG air worthiness authorities complete their reviews and issue the official clearances. The show jet is "bailed" from the USAF and is from an earlier production Lot.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 10:15
by quicksilver
"The only jets that can pull 9G today are flown by LM as part of the test fleet."

They are flown by the Integrated Test Force which includes both government and LM pilots. May be some JOTT pilot exposure to 3F also.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 10:17
by quicksilver
doge wrote:It's rolling quite. @@(Rolling point 0:45, 6:00, 6:50, 8:00, 8:20)


This is low show.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 20:16
by geforcerfx
I have never seen a f-35 do so many rolls, not a bad show. It seems like a low show for sure, but even in the event of clouds (which the Paris show seems to have a lot) they will have a decent routine for that. That video right there finally let's a f-35 look more like a traditional fighter for the crowds. If they can do the full show hopefully they have some more vertical and at least one hard turn away from show center like we saw at Chino, should be enough to shut up some folks.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 22:50
by neptune
quicksilver wrote:
doge wrote:It's rolling quite. @@(Rolling point 0:45, 6:00, 6:50, 8:00, 8:20)


This is low show.


OK, at FW; I'm thinking I can maybe see HL and 388 FW?? AF/13 5072? (like the photo?) thus LRIP 7 Block 3I (7G limited)?

....so..."Europe we are here"....is this the same bird??
:roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2017, 05:11
by geforcerfx
the video description says that aircraft so seems that's it.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2017, 06:33
by spazsinbad
Description from YOUTUBE page about the video under discussion:
F-35A Lightning ll Demo!! Practice for the 2017 Paris Airshow!!
TXAVGEEK Published on Jun 2, 2017

"F-35A "AF-78" (13-5072) from the 388FW, Hill AFB, Utah performing a low show aerial demonstration practice for the 2017 Paris Airshow at NAS Fort Worth JRB!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsEl_IL_5-M

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2017, 17:03
by smsgtmac
quicksilver wrote:This is low show.

I think your'e right. Some common elements with the first day (high AOA pass, climb out on takeoff) but all in all I like the first video's demonstration better. It also appears the the touch and go in the second video was the entry setup to a second round of practice. Good o see the pilots mixing the routine up, and hope I get to see more --to the point I'm making adjustments to my lunch plans this week :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2017, 12:39
by tincansailor
Very nice video. The F-35 demonstrated a good roll rate, and high AOA maneuvers. The people in Paris should be impressed. Hopefully we'll get some more sales out of it. Maybe German will pick up a few dozen for Christmas.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2017, 13:58
by mikemag
Unless I'm mistaken, from 6:11 to 6:24 that's a 270 degree turn - approx 20 dgr/sec! And he does it a couple other times too! And the radius is tighter than a... well let's just say it's tight! That was some impressive s**t!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2017, 17:56
by steve2267
If LM is footing the bill for "borrowing" the AF planes for Paris... and if 3F is "just a software download"... and if all the flight points for the aerial demonstration have presumably been tested/verified under 3F (i.e. they are not anywhere near pushing the 3F envelope)... and if LM were willing to underwrite (i.e. assume the (minimal?) risk) the aircraft...

and with even with all due respect to Quicksilver's earlier comments...

why could LM NOT download 3F to the show planes for the show, then revert back to 3I before returning the planes to the Air Force?

For that matter, what about flying the first day's performance with 3I, upgrade to 3F over night, and fly day 2 (and subsequent) with 3F, to demonstrate the truly software upgradibility of the jet?

Is it a risk thing?

Or more of a "because that's just not the way we do things" thing?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2017, 18:15
by botsing
The software is still in a test phase. This means that by default (for safety reasons alone already) it is not suited to be used in a public area.

It would be an incredible risk if they used that software in Paris for a mere airshow. IMHO no sane person would take that risk.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2017, 18:22
by krorvik
Can't speak for LM and the USAF, but having the ability to roll back software updates is certainly not a bad thing to demonstrate. The F-35 is known for it's concurrent development - and as such, I think that should actually be a part of it. Even so, they're not really, as far as I can tell, doing the extreme version of concurrent, that is continuous deployment, so I doubt they would do it in that context.

But yeah, would make a really good point for concurrent development!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2017, 23:16
by quicksilver
steve2267 wrote:If LM is footing the bill for "borrowing" the AF planes for Paris... and if 3F is "just a software download"... and if all the flight points for the aerial demonstration have presumably been tested/verified under 3F (i.e. they are not anywhere near pushing the 3F envelope)... and if LM were willing to underwrite (i.e. assume the (minimal?) risk) the aircraft...

and with even with all due respect to Quicksilver's earlier comments...

why could LM NOT download 3F to the show planes for the show, then revert back to 3I before returning the planes to the Air Force?

For that matter, what about flying the first day's performance with 3I, upgrade to 3F over night, and fly day 2 (and subsequent) with 3F, to demonstrate the truly software upgradibility of the jet?

Is it a risk thing?

Or more of a "because that's just not the way we do things" thing?


C'mon man. What exactly would they be "demonstrating" that hasnt occurred dozens of times in flight test...that the jets are capable of accepting a new SW load? Really? This has occured dozens of times..dozens upon dozens. And this would be for the sake of 9Gs instead of...? What?

:roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2017, 23:18
by quicksilver
botsing wrote:The software is still in a test phase. This means that by default (for safety reasons alone already) it is not suited to be used in a public area.

It would be an incredible risk if they used that software in Paris for a mere airshow. IMHO no sane person would take that risk.


This.

If "something happened," (e.g. like a crash w fatalities etc) the lawsuits would put LM out of business.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2017, 23:54
by neurotech
quicksilver wrote:
botsing wrote:The software is still in a test phase. This means that by default (for safety reasons alone already) it is not suited to be used in a public area.

It would be an incredible risk if they used that software in Paris for a mere airshow. IMHO no sane person would take that risk.


This.

If "something happened," (e.g. like a crash w fatalities etc) the lawsuits would put LM out of business.

Nobody was killed, but an F-16E crashed in 2006 with Lockheed pilot Dan Levin at the controls, preparing for an airshow. It would have to be the worlds' worst airshow crash before the damage to Lockheed would seriously risk of bankruptcy.

Also, there has been a few previous instances of software being updated ahead of airshows. Boeing did update the F/A-18F software before an airshow in 2000, partly due to envelope restrictions. The demo flight was incident free.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2017, 00:11
by quicksilver
LM would not risk such a thing -- period. Not in 2017...

3i jets are fully capable of performing 9G turns; there is, however, no clearance to do so with jets so-loaded.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2017, 18:31
by steve2267
doge wrote:It's rolling quite. @@(Rolling point 0:45, 6:00, 6:50, 8:00, 8:20)


Thanks for this video!

I have no idea the flight parameters (mostly airspeed) of this flight demo practice, so I cannot answer the following questions -- anyone have any ideas?

  1. Anyone have an estimated airspeed for these sorts of demos?
  2. A full 360° turn seems to occur from 3:14 to 3:38 (24 sec) which would be about 15°/sec sustained. Is this considered "good" performance?
  3. Bank angle would seem to be measurable at 3:23 -- we could estimate sustained-g from this, assuming a level, sustained turn, no? Burner appears lit, but no idea if it is at MAX. (I haven't measured the angle yet.)
  4. Rolls around 0:42 appear to be in the 150° - 200°/sec range. That does not strike me as a particularly fast roll rate - but they are smooth, well controlled. Any idea if these rolls are useful to demonstrate time-to-bank performance, more of a crowd pleaser, or just the pilot getting a better feel for the aircraft for demo purposes? JohnWill had some good perspective on roll performance beginning here: viewtopic.php?p=318962#p318962

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2017, 19:20
by geforcerfx
24 seconds is around 5-6 seconds slower than the old viper west demo for a min rad. So a clean 9g capable F-16 is still a bit quicker in sustained turn rate which falls in line with what we have heard from pilots on it. It's around equal to the F-15c demos, it's 3-5 seconds faster than the Super Hornet Demo, It's 2-3 seconds slower than the F-22 demo. All the other aircraft are 9g except the Rhino, and it beats the rhino's min rad at shows. Basically it looks to compete well in time, I think the excessive rolls was the pilot practicing more than part of the routine.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2017, 20:12
by steve2267
geforcerfx wrote:24 seconds is around 5-6 seconds slower than the old viper west demo for a min rad. So a clean 9g capable F-16 is still a bit quicker in sustained turn rate which falls in line with what we have heard from pilots on it. It's around equal to the F-15c demos, it's 3-5 seconds faster than the Super Hornet Demo, It's 2-3 seconds slower than the F-22 demo. All the other aircraft are 9g except the Rhino, and it beats the rhino's min rad at shows. Basically it looks to compete well in time, I think the excessive rolls was the pilot practicing more than part of the routine.


Thanks GE. I will note for the record, though, that this F-35A is 9g capable (airframe) but limited to 7g (presently by software load 3I). Based on what you have stated, it seems reasonable to believe that this turn was a max performance turn (for given airspeed) in a 7g-limited aircraft. If it had software load 3F, perhaps it gets a few of those seconds back against the Viper / Raptor.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2017, 21:49
by smsgtmac
Today's practice just concluded. Elements of both previous shows were seen. I'd call this one a 'high' show with weather cooperating nicely, except for one cloud coming through just in time for what may have been the 'J turn'. Cool how it came out of the cloud.
Also noteworthy, if a video comes out of this practice, look for the power climb out of high AOA pass. I saw an F-18E do it lower at the Alliance airshow last year, but not so effortlessly powered through to a steep climbout.
As an aside, the 9g version would only have a couple of more degrees bank angle than what you'll see in a 7g show, and unless somebody has calibrated protractor eyballs, we don't know what the pilot is pulling unless he tells us. If you don't have the airspeed and altitude data, you don't know if it is a 'sustained turn'.
As always, airshow maneuvering can only give you an inkling of the true performance where it counts. This is the fun stuff, and all the critics have been so OTT on claims about the plane's performance, it just has to be competent to prove them wrong. So far it looks very much beyond 'just' competent. Our fun = H8er's pain. Enjoy the burn.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 04:39
by doge
It's flying very agilely. Wonderful!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 06:45
by geforcerfx
definitely more energetic than the first one, the vertical was nice to see. It kinda looked like he did a Pirouette coming out of the cloud, no idea for sure, hopefully someone with a decent camera and half an idea on how to use it was there.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 08:46
by hornetfinn
I think all the statements from pilots have been exactly correct all along despite what detractors have said. It sure seems that F-35A combines the best of clean F-16 Block 50 and Hornets when it comes to flight performance and characteristics. Some maneuvers do remind a lot of F-22 maneuvering which is not surprising. Of course pilots have said F-35A very nearly matches F-22 in subsonic region. Very impressive IMO!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 13:24
by quicksilver
Sequence appears to be T/W demo upon rotation and gear retraction, square loop, a moderately slow speed/high alpha pass with another T/W demo out of it, vertical climb to high alpha descending pedal turn, accel to return for min radius turn and then pitch out to the pattern and landing. A tuck-under turn and a aileron roll thrown in a couple places for flourish.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 14:43
by spazsinbad
quicksilver wrote:Sequence appears to be T/W demo upon rotation and gear retraction, square loop, a moderately slow speed/high alpha pass with another T/W demo out of it, vertical climb to high alpha descending pedal turn, accel to return for min radius turn and then pitch out to the pattern and landing. A tuck-under turn and a aileron roll thrown in a couple places for flourish.

Excellent. I thought that square loop was magic along with the rest (some bits not seen by camera too well). That climb out of high alpha must be terrific to hear - not only see.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 22:09
by spazsinbad
This article has a lot more than about the PARIS airshow. There are odd things due to reporter English writing 'ladedah'.
ANALYSIS: Lockheed F-35A prepares Paris premier
07 Jun 2017 Leigh Giangreco

"...Two F-35As will depart from Hill Air Force Base, Utah, and Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, with US Air Force pilots, though Lockheed pilots will perform the demonstration at the show. The USAF cited a limited number of aircraft, pilots and maintainers but plans to develop its own F-35 demonstrations beginning in 2018, according to a service statement. The two F-35s will perform more than just a flyover, according to a Lockheed spokesman who declined to elaborate on whether the aircraft would land at the show.

“We are not giving out any details of the show, we want to keep the suspense,” he says. “If you come to the show, you’ll get to see what the aircraft will do.”

Although the short-takeoff-vertical-landing F-35B variant appeared at the Farnborough air show last year, the conventional takeoff and landing variant has not made a transatlantic trip outside of its recent deployment this spring for the European Reassurance Initiative effort.... [Hopeless sense of history considering the Dutchies went across USA to DykeLand first whilst Italians went first in other direction but please downplay everything the F-35 does because....]

...sharing classified data remains an issue on the F-35. But that doesn’t change the way the Joint Strike Fighter operates with UK and French fighters today, Malard adds. [Rafale pilot Lt Col Yann Malard]

During the trilateral event, the F-35 shared less information with its partners than it would during a contingency operation, says Col Joseph Kendall, chief of the tactical data links enterprise division at USAF Air Combat Command.

“We would probably allow a little more information to flow in those environments,” Kendall says of an operational mission. “It’s something that we’re cognisant of and something we’re working on to the maximum extent possible. We obviously need to protect our methods and sources while still maximizing the amount of information we can distribute and we’re finding responsible and thorough ways to achieve that.”

Kendall also acknowledges the F-35 programme could update its Link 16 communication system. The F-35, Rafale and Typhoon are all able to share information because they are both MADL and Link 16 capable, but the F-22’s Link 16 network can only receive data from the F-35.... [This reporter needs some edumucation Shirley]

...Lockheed is projecting confidence with its F-35A visit to Paris, but the programme has some work to do before it catches up to its objectives. Lockheed is behind pace in its F-35 delivery, with the Pentagon’s Defense Contract Management Agency estimating the company will deliver nine fewer than the projected 66 aircraft for this year. During a December 2016 tour of the F-35 production facility in Fort Worth, Texas, Lockheed officials told FlightGlobal the plant would make 67 jets in 2017 and reach a 100 rate in 2018. Production should peak in 2023 with 178 jets that year, F-35 production vice-president Janet Nash said...." [then a whole bunch of unrelated ladedah that is irrelevant I reckon]

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-437527/

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 23:07
by quicksilver
hornetfinn wrote:I think all the statements from pilots have been exactly correct all along..."


That's a curious statement. What exactly should we expect their comments to be? Propaganda? Marketing?

The harshest judgments on things military pilots say in public most often come from the ready rooms of their own aircraft community. Lie in public and one loses professional credibility all-but forever. Sometimes the reporters get stuff wrong -- they misquote or misplace in context, but major excursions from reality get called out immediately.

Its tough to walk into the ready room in the morning on stuff one gets right in the press...the banter common to all healthy ready rooms. Fabrications are professionally toxic.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 23:36
by steve2267
quicksilver wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:I think all the statements from pilots have been exactly correct all along..."


That's a curious statement. What exactly should we expect their comments to be? Propaganda? Marketing?



Shirley hf was referring to insinuations implied or directly stated by "bloggers", so-called "reporters" or "journalists", or other basement dwellers that LM test pilots and service pilots were all shilling for either LM or to keep their prized "pet" aircraft from being cancelled by politicians or their service.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 23:50
by quicksilver
Speaking of deranged bloggers, journalists, etc, Senator "Scandal and a Tragedy" McCain was on the SecAF and CSAF this week in open testimony about why they weren't buying more F-35s/yr, like...80.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 00:06
by sprstdlyscottsmn
quicksilver wrote:Speaking of deranged bloggers, journalists, etc, Senator "Scandal and a Tragedy" McCain was on the SecAF and CSAF this week in open testimony about why they weren't buying more F-35s/yr, like...80.

He must have realized he has two, potentially three F-35 bases in his/our state.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 00:43
by jetblast16
Some impressive rate of climb there, in that last video. Coming out of high alpha and accelerating into the vertical was VERY good, particularly for a single engine fighter.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 02:00
by blindpilot
quicksilver wrote:Speaking of deranged bloggers, journalists, etc, Senator "Scandal and a Tragedy" McCain was on the SecAF and CSAF this week in open testimony about why they weren't buying more F-35s/yr, like...80.


They should have replied that they really wanted to but the expense of keeping all those A-10s and other bases in Arizona, used up all the money! :D :D :devil:

But I guess they didn't see the advantage of being snarky with "the Senator."

BP :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 04:48
by doge
Also New video. F-35 Amazing!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 05:19
by Dragon029
I wouldn't call it a cobra (I feel that's reserved for horizontal flight), but rather more like a half-loop into a controlled post-stall flat spin.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 05:45
by geforcerfx
Nice the camera guy zoomed in right on the Pirouette coming down.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 06:46
by hornetfinn
steve2267 wrote:
quicksilver wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:I think all the statements from pilots have been exactly correct all along..."


That's a curious statement. What exactly should we expect their comments to be? Propaganda? Marketing?



Shirley hf was referring to insinuations implied or directly stated by "bloggers", so-called "reporters" or "journalists", or other basement dwellers that LM test pilots and service pilots were all shilling for either LM or to keep their prized "pet" aircraft from being cancelled by politicians or their service.


Exactly. I've found it funny how much effort all the detractors have expended doing just that. We here know that statements from pilots are accurate and they know these things "slightly" better than some random bloggers and reporters. It's just great to see it with own eyes but sadly only on video so far. Maybe some day I'll see F-35 doing airshow routine being on the spot myself. Hopefully by Finnish pilot even... :drool:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 07:07
by steve2267
Dragon029 wrote:I wouldn't call it a cobra (I feel that's reserved for horizontal flight), but rather more like a half-loop into a controlled post-stall flat spin.


Unless someone with direct knowledge contradicts me, I think this is the so-called pedal turn (also referred to as a pirouette).

I believe the 4th and 5th images in my post here: viewtopic.php?p=356498#p356498 illustrate the velocity vector roll at high alpha used to threaten the bogey (i.e. point the nose at the bad guy) as seen in the above video starting around 1:48. (https://youtu.be/P6Zo7rxxyKQ?t=108).

If I'm understanding my tea leaves correctly, in a WVR fight, at the merge, if the Lightning goes vertical, and the bogey does not go up with the Lightning, then the Lightning rider drives to the center of the bogey's turn, pulls back down, and pedal turns (rolls around velocity vector) to put his nose on the bad guy. At this point, unless the bogey has a wingman or other friends about, I think he's toast.

If at the merge, the F-35 goes vertical, and the bogey goes up with him, then don't you end up in a classic, vertical rolling scissors? The low speed, high alpha controllability demonstrated by the F-35 strongly suggests this is not a place someone wants to ride (dance with) the lightning...

In a furball -- i.e. if one exists -- I'm not sure I want to use this sort of pedal turn, as I get awful slow, and turn myself into a grape, ripe for the picking.

If I need to kill someone right quick (and for whatever reason a faceshot or over the shoulder shot with an AIM-120, ASRAAM, or AIM-9X is not feasible), then this might do the trick, though I think I still get slow.

Image

(I guess that is where "F-18 with a turbo" OR "F-18 with four engines" comes in handy to quickly regain energy.)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 14:47
by mk82
Nice! Sweet displays of power and maneuverability......looks like the F35 can pull off impressive high Alpha and post stall moves too. Official news just in: Kopp and Goon exploded their heads after watching the latest F35's practice air show demonstrations.....they could only handle F105 levels of maneuverability......bwahahahaha :devil:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 17:22
by smsgtmac
This morning's practice just concluded. I would have called this one the "scud-running show". Low overcast did not deter the session, and the F-35 was in the clouds almost as much as out of them. Not a problem for the pilot, but observers on the ground could have used DAS to better enjoy it. Rained hard this a.m. and I doubt if Paris would have let the show go on for the real deal. Maybe clearer skies this afternoon?
Edit added: Windy as all get out too.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2017, 01:46
by neptune
http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35-s- ... urns-paris

With F-35’s Arrival, Stealth Returns To Paris

Jun 8, 2017
Lara Seligma

More than two decades after the U.S. Air Force gave attendees of Europe’s largest aerospace showcase a rare glimpse at the secretive B-2 bomber, stealth is returning to Le Bourget Airport. Lockheed Martin’s F-35A will make its much-anticipated Paris Air Show debut this year, marking the first time a low-observable aircraft has appeared at the event since 1995. There are many theories about why the U.S. has declined to send stealth aircraft to Paris for the past few decades, primarily related to security and logistics. While stealth is less exotic today than it was when Northrop Grumman unveiled the B-2, the Pentagon is likely still concerned the aircraft could be exposed to prying eyes. It is also simply more difficult for the U.S. to operate stealth aircraft in France than it is elsewhere in Europe such as Germany or the UK, as the Pentagon does not have secure military facilities or basing rights there. Those security and logistics challenges still remain. In fact, Defense Department officials said right up until early May that the JSF would not go to the Paris Air Show, which runs from June 19-26. What has changed, according to multiple experts, is the growing importance of international F-35 sales to the health of the overall program, the increasingly volatile global security environment and the maturity of the aircraft itself. Simply put, the scale has been slowly tipping in recent years, and the pros of sending the F-35 to Paris now outweigh the cons. A little history: Lockheed’s F-117 was the first stealth aircraft to appear at Le Bourget, in 1991. The B-2 was next, but its time there was fleeting—about 1 hr. During the flying demonstration, several French aircraft “got a little too close” to the bomber, likely trying to take pictures of the sensitive stealth coatings, says Richard Aboulafia, an analyst with the Teal Group.

Lockheed’s F-22 Raptor was scheduled to fly at the 2009 Paris Air Show, but the Air Force canceled the appearance at the last minute, saying the aircraft was tied up elsewhere. However, news reports at the time indicated there may have been another reason the F-22 was a no-show: concerns that the stealth fighter would be exposed to radar trying to gather intelligence on U.S. technology. Eight years later, the Air Force maintains that the last-minute move to send the JSF to Paris is not a reversal, saying that by mid-May the decision simply had not reached the highest levels of leadership yet. (By contrast, Defense Department officials confirmed to reporters a full six months in advance that the F-35 would participate in the 2016 Royal International Air Tattoo and the Farnborough Airshow in the UK.) “In all likelihood, it was the traditional: ‘Well, we’ve never gone, and the answer has always been no.’ Then someone has to shake that cage,” says one former military officer familiar with the Paris Air Show process, who spoke on condition of anonymity. The official pointed to “getting murdered in the press” as one possible contributor to the Air Force’s change of heart. This year, the F-35 will not only fly an aerial demonstration at the European showcase but will also appear in the static park. This seems like unnecessary hassle and risk, given the logistics challenges and security concerns. The Air Force could fly the aircraft from air bases in the UK or Germany, do the demonstration and fly back without ever having to land at Le Bourget. But both Lockheed Martin and the Pentagon appear to be going all out for the F-35’s Paris debut, perhaps with the hope of securing additional international sales. Lockheed sees a market for the F-35 all over the world, with near-term opportunities including Belgium, Canada, Finland, Poland, Switzerland and possibly Germany down the road. In the Middle East, customers could eventually include Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, says Aboulafia.

In a tight budget environment, securing international orders for the F-35 is not just a boon for Lockheed but also is in the best interest of the U.S. government. Whereas the B-2 and F-22 were never designed for export, selling the F-35 to foreign customers has become increasingly crucial for the health of the overall program. While many defense hawks hoped President Donald Trump would increase funds for aircraft modernization, U.S. F-35 procurement is now stalled at fewer than 60 aircraft a year through the five-year defense plan. Absent a sudden influx of cash, any hope for an F-35 ramp-up in the near-term—necessary to decrease unit costs and mitigate a strike fighter shortfall across the armed services—now rests with international exports. “Everything on that airplane is premised on rate,” says Doug Birkey, executive director of the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Power Studies. “From a sales standpoint . . . I don’t think they can afford not to go.” Meanwhile, the international market is ripe for the picking. With the F-35’s upcoming appearance at Paris, Lockheed appears to be seizing the opportunity presented by an increasingly unstable world. Spooked by escalating aggression from Russia, China and North Korea, alarmed allies are likely more open to buying a fifth-generation stealth fighter. “The best salespeople in the world include Vladimir Putin, the Chinese and our North Korean friends,” says Birkey. International air shows present a prime opportunity to market new capabilities, says Dan Stohr, spokesman for the Aerospace Industries Association. “The U.S. proudly arranges flight demonstrations and static displays of our civil and military aircraft at these international air shows to reinforce why America is the security and trading partner of choice,” says Stohr. Finally, the F-35 program seems to have turned a corner, programmatically and in the eyes of the public. The long-anticipated Farnborough Airshow debut in 2016 went off without a major hitch, and the Air Force variant successfully completed its first European training deployment earlier this year. Meanwhile, a squadron of the Marine Corps’ F-35Bs permanently deployed to Iwakuni, Japan, and recently completed joint training exercise Northern Edge in Alaska. Lockheed anticipates that development of the final warfighting software will be completed by the end of the year, in time for the Navy to declare its F-35C variant combat-ready in 2018. As the warfighter begins operating the F-35, confidence in the fighter continues to grow. The successful European deployment in particular was “a major stepping-stone” to being able to deploy the F-35 anywhere in the world, says Col. David Lyons, commander of the 388th Fighter Wing at Hill AFB, Utah. “That really was, at the end of the day, one of the biggest objectives of the deployment—to prove that we could take the spares package, the ALIS [Autonomic Logistic Information System], the personnel, the jets, all of the logistics train that goes along with this deployment,” Lyons says. “Now we know that we can take the F-35 and all the equipment, and we can go wherever we want to go in the world.” 
:)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2017, 03:23
by white_lightning35
The French, being such classy and solid allies as always...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2017, 22:47
by halloweene

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2017, 22:49
by halloweene
white_lightning35 wrote:The French, being such classy and solid allies as always...


As you were in 2013 about Syria last minute cancellation? USA may not exist without Lafayette and co, remember?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2017, 23:22
by white_lightning35
So you are not denying that the French had one instance 240 years ago of helping the US, mostly just to screw the British, and are now not really friendlies?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 01:25
by zerion
Countdown to Paris Air Show begins as F-35 arrives in France
By: Valerie Insinna, June 13, 2017 (Photo Credit: Todd Cromar/U.S. Air Force)

WASHINGTON — Two F-35As safely landed in France on Tuesday, just days ahead of the jet’s debut at Paris Air Show next week.

The U.S. aircraft took off from Hill Air Force Base in Utah earlier Tuesday and landed at Le Bourget Airport, the site of the air show, on Tuesday evening, Air Force spokesman Capt. Mark Graff told Defense News. Two pilots from Eglin Air Force Base in Florida operated the aircraft during the transatlantic flight.

Although the U.S. Air Force’s variant of the joint strike fighter has participated in other air shows, the demonstrations in Paris will be the first opportunity for international audiences to see the F-35’s aerodynamic capabilities, including acrobatic and high G-force maneuvers on par with what viewers see during performances of the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds, Graff said...

At Le Bourget, one F-35 will fly demonstrations at a time, with the second aircraft kept as a spare and for static displays, he said. A Lockheed Martin test pilot will operate the aircraft.

The F-35 is the first stealth aircraft owned by the U.S. military to visit the Paris Air Show in more than 20 years. Questions about the security of stealth planes arose in 1991, when alleged French industrial espionage of the F-117 took place during the event. The B-2 conducted a flyover in 1995, but did not land at Le Bourget. An F-22 appearance was canceled in 2009.

Weather permitting, the F-35 will fly June 19-21 during the trade show, as well as June 23-25 when the air show is open to the public, said Mike Rein, a Lockheed spokesman. A static display is currently planned for June 19-21, although Rein noted that the jet’s availability will be up to the Air Force’s discretion.

Lockheed will foot the bill for the F-35’s flight time during the air show, Rein said, adding that in the past the company and the Air Force made similar arrangements for F-22 and F-16 flights.

The Lockheed spokesman could not elaborate on whether the company would also be paying the cost of the transatlantic flight, logistics support or other expenses associated with the trip.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/cou ... -in-france

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 04:53
by doge
https://twitter.com/thef35/status/874706009180299264
Very impressive climb!

The demo pilot is him.
aT1drdn8TwAF_WXq.mp4_000019252.jpg

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 05:01
by spazsinbad
:doh: Bien Sur - AS IF! Send me a free ticket to Paris and I'll go. :drool: Cheeky Bastard. :mrgreen: Fly Safe Now - Y'all Hear. :shock: 8)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 05:52
by rheonomic
Sh*t, I wish I could see that in person.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 07:49
by blindpilot
doge wrote:https://twitter.com/thef35/status/874706009180299264
...
The demo pilot is him. ... Flynn ..


Ouch! Someone help wash that salt out of Trudeau's wound ....!

BP

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 09:07
by popcorn
ah... the other Flynn... :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 10:20
by tincansailor
halloweene wrote:
white_lightning35 wrote:The French, being such classy and solid allies as always...


As you were in 2013 about Syria last minute cancellation? USA may not exist without Lafayette and co, remember?



It's a good thing that during the Yorktown Campaign the French Fleet didn't do what they usually did when sighting a smaller British Fleet, immediately run away. At Virginia Capes the French had to screw up their courage for 24 French ships of the line to face 19 British. They only did that because they feared if they ran away another squadron of 7 ships of line who were scheduled to arrive in Chesapeake Bay would have been captured.

Thanks for the supplies, and money. The French entered the war in the hopes of bleeding both Britain and America, because they assumed after American Independence the new United States would ally with Britain against them. It took Washington 3 years to get the French Forces to commit to see a campaign though to the end. Even Yorktown was touch and go, the French Fleet could have cut and run at any moment. Afterward they never again cooperated in a major operation.

They went on to lose a series of naval battles, and so made no gains in the war. Once again it was timidity at sea that throw away any chance of success. America won it's independence, Britain lost her Colonies, and France bankrupted it's self, which helped set the stage for the French Revolution. Still thanks for your efforts. Vive la France.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 10:59
by halloweene
Still angry at France because we did not want to participate to that crazy and unfounded 2nd irak war?

Anw, as i'm a good guy, photos from F-35 at PAS 17 here https://www.facebook.com/portailaviation/?ref=bookmarks

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 11:15
by ricnunes
popcorn wrote:ah... the other Flynn... :mrgreen:


LOL :mrgreen:


But yes, I think that choosing Flynn as the F-35 Demo pilot wasn't done by mere random choice. I believe that there's a strong "hint" at Canada here.
Of course that there's also the fact that Flynn is one of the main/top F-35 test pilots.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 11:20
by spazsinbad
:devil: HELL YEAH! & the MIGHTY FLYNN probably speaks FRENCH nestpas? :doh:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 12:45
by popcorn
spazsinbad wrote::devil: HELL YEAH! & the MIGHTY FLYNN probably speaks FRENCH nestpas? :doh:


Maybe he runs into fellow Canuck Ricardo Traven pitching the Blk 3 Super Hornet and they get to discussing the RCAF requirement in front of the media :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 13:04
by ricnunes
popcorn wrote:
spazsinbad wrote::devil: HELL YEAH! & the MIGHTY FLYNN probably speaks FRENCH nestpas? :doh:


Maybe he runs into fellow Canuck Ricardo Traven pitching the Blk 3 Super Hornet and they get to discussing the RCAF requirement in front of the media :D


Or even better, they end up running a mock aerial combat above the skies of Paris with the Super Hornet inevitably getting its "a$$" kicked :twisted:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 20:27
by doge
F-35 is rehearsing in Paris.

It's flying around to very agile!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 21:13
by sferrin
A shame they had to zoom out far enough to get the entire sky in right during the best part of the routine. "That fly speck is doing a pedal turn. Trust us." :doh:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 21:16
by spazsinbad
Yankin' & Bankin' - wot a showoff. :mrgreen: Some spectacular moves in that lot. Eat sh*t & die eh naysayers. Thanks 'doge'.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 21:33
by ricnunes
Excellent video doge, thanks for sharing it! :D

I can easily imagine Solomon foaming from his mouth after watching this video, LoL :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 23:37
by bring_it_on

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 00:09
by quicksilver
Fair shot of a pirouette from about :22 secs. Counterclockwise rotation.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 00:26
by sferrin
Would be interesting to hear "LowObservables" take on it. And I'm guessing Solomon will be foaming at the mouth about conspiracies and F-16s doing it better. :lmao:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 00:28
by jetblast16
Thanks dog-e, I just watched that silent video you posted.

So...F-15C-like vertical climbs, high alpha like a Super Hornet, instantaneous turns like or approaching a Raptor, but without thrust vectoring and solid acceleration. Am I missing something lol?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 01:01
by geforcerfx
jetblast16 wrote:So...F-15C-like vertical climbs, high alpha like a Super Hornet, instantaneous turns like or approaching a Raptor, but without thrust vectoring and solid acceleration. Am I missing something lol?


yeah the wing is to small, it can't climb, it can't turn, and it can't go fast, also it cost 250 million dollars :P

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 01:21
by juretrn
quicksilver wrote:Fair shot of a pirouette from about :22 secs. Counterclockwise rotation.

Wasn't that a Herbst?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 10:46
by doge
Also another angle came.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 11:31
by krorvik
Anyone bitching about the small wings should take a look at the relation between the LEF and TEF in tight turns - at 2:06 in the last video is a good angle showing TEF up, LEF down - in effect, sacrificing lift for rotation - if I interpret that correctly?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 12:18
by quicksilver
juretrn wrote:
quicksilver wrote:Fair shot of a pirouette from about :22 secs. Counterclockwise rotation.

Wasn't that a Herbst?


Second doge video above from about 2:30 or so shows it better. Call it what you want...maybe 'pedal turn' is better description. Entry from vertical extension (you can see the jet unload a little) and pull-down to generate some alpha, then rotate around the velocity vector roughly 270 degrees to come out on the same heading he was on when he entered the vertical extension.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 19:52
by doge
2nd rehearsal.

This time many rolling.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 21:45
by quicksilver
Nice job capturing the jet emerging out of the cloud at very high alpha in the pedal turn...very Raptor-like (from about 3:50ish). Also noted that the steep climb out after the T&G was in Mil.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2017, 21:56
by XanderCrews
Doge delivers

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2017, 00:41
by jetblast16
Keep 'em coming dog-e! This is what I've been waiting for.

The vertical climb into the cloud was unbelievable, like a Raptor.

The sustained 360 degree turn was phenomenal.

No wonder the F-35 wasn't invited to the airshow? LOL. If I was a foreign government and I saw that thing fly, with all its sensors, computers, stealth and performance, I wouldn't even waste my time with anything else at the show.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2017, 03:18
by vicious
During the second rehearsal there's no AB after the touch and go. Wonder if it didn't light or if this was intentional to demonstrate that he has enough juice even without the AB.

Tom

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2017, 06:03
by johnwill
The cases of both TEF up and LEF down are possibly speedbrake events, but I'm not certain of course. I think I can see both rudders outboard at the same time. The turn reversals rolling underneath instead of over the top look great, as do the weapon bay doors open. Also interesting to see flaps up on roll out after the nose gear is on the ground. That gives more down force for better braking and more drag, both to shorten the stopping distances.

I watched one of the practices at Fort Worth last week, made my heart beat faster. Now I can check off another of my bucket list items. In 1975 at the same location I watched several YF-16 practices for the Paris Air Show. Just like yesterday although 42 years ago.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2017, 09:54
by twistedneck
hornetfinn wrote:I think all the statements from pilots have been exactly correct all along despite what detractors have said. It sure seems that F-35A combines the best of clean F-16 Block 50 and Hornets when it comes to flight performance and characteristics. Some maneuvers do remind a lot of F-22 maneuvering which is not surprising. Of course pilots have said F-35A very nearly matches F-22 in subsonic region. Very impressive IMO!


The Mig 29 could out pull a clean F16 in the late 80's... and that is better than any f18 with its wana be chines or mini canards. why is nobody comparing this to the flying titanium foundry that is the su35? that ball frying hog will be the main battle partner for the f35. we saw the real scenario's gamed out well by Binhov's sock puppet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjS8j2PWtK4

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2017, 13:14
by bring_it_on
why is nobody comparing this to the flying titanium foundry that is the su35? that ball frying hog will be the main battle partner for the f35.


Perhaps because air combat is more complicated than simply X vs Y comparisons? And because how the aircraft compares to the types it is replacing may be relevant to some?

What is the RCS of the Su-35 compared to the F-35?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2017, 14:38
by halloweene
Nice show btw (saw it yesterday). Pity there will be only Rafale and F-35 as modern fighters this year at PAS 17

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2017, 15:04
by Dragon029
It's weird too because I saw a few posts stating a month or two ago that Russia planned to bring their latest Su-30SM variant, and even that Shenyang was planning to debut their 3rd J-31 prototype at the show. Still, the official schedule has nothing of either sort listed.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2017, 18:01
by spazsinbad
The F-35 at Paris Air Show 2017
14 Jun 2017 LM PR

"...*Schedule subject to change due to weather or other unforeseen circumstances.

Monday, June 19
1000. Paris Air Show Conference Center Room 2 | F-35 Aerial Demonstration Pilot Briefing
1100. Paris Air Show Conference Center Room 2 | Lockheed Martin F-35 Briefing
1200. Paris Air Show Conference Center Room 2 | F-35 Program Update with Col. (Brig. Gen. Select) Todd Canterbury, Director, USAF F-35 Integration Office
1530-1600. F-35 Aerial Demonstration

Tuesday, June 20
0900. Paris Air Show Media Center Room 2 | F-35 Aerial Demonstration Pilot Briefing
1100. Paris Air Show Media Center Room 2 | United States Marine Corps Leadership Briefing
1215. Paris Air Show Media Center Room 2 | UK Royal Navy Leadership Briefing
1530-1600. F-35 Aerial Demonstration

Wednesday, June 21
1530-1600. F-35 Aerial Demonstration

Thursday, June 22
No F-35 Activities

Friday, June 23
1530-1600. F-35 Aerial Demonstration

Saturday, June 24
1530-1600. F-35 Aerial Demonstration

Sunday, June 25
1530-1600. F-35 Aerial Demonstration "

Source: https://www.f35.com/news/detail/the-f-3 ... -show-2017

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2017, 01:26
by arrow-nautics
Those demos and what has yet to come has me pumped. Supporters and detractors alike have stated the "F-16 beats F-35 in a dogfight" verdict cannot be written until we see some airshow demonstrations with BFM or ACM. Not all detractors though. Most would dismiss irrefutable DNA evidence if it smacked them in their faces

Yes, our day has come :)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2017, 11:20
by hythelday
twistedneck wrote: why is nobody comparing this to the flying titanium foundry that is the su35? that ball frying hog will be the main battle partner for the f35.


Su-35S is a fairly uncommon plane with around rwo sqadrons in service in both RF an PRC, Su-30 variants are on the contrary in the hundreds and are widely exported.

twistedneck wrote: we saw the real scenario's gamed out well by Binhov's sock puppet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjS8j2PWtK4


Played out well?! "Flankers coming in at sea level doing 1,5M with 12 AAMs"? " Detecting F-35 and shooting R-27 from BVR distance"? He gets points for trying, not authenticity.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2017, 14:53
by mixelflick
These demos are enough to convince me: Jumping a flight of F-35's and expecting an easy kill (if you could find them) would be a BIG mistake. All of the "F-16 beats F-35" nonsense has lulled people into believing it can't run, can't turn, can't climb etc. It can do all of that, and then some.

Hard to believe it's super stealthy, has amazing legs, knows where everyone and everything is in the battlespace AND is getting cheaper and cheaper. And there are already 100's in service, soon to be thousands. It's been a long road, but demo flights like this are finally shutting up the critics.

Now, let's take ALL the gloves off when the (what is it, 3F) software is cleared for flight. I think when that happens, you'll see the F-35 haters looking for something new to dump on. It never ends..

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2017, 15:34
by garrya
twistedneck wrote:The Mig 29 could out pull a clean F16 in the late 80's...

I highly doubt that
Mig-29 is structure limited to 7.5G above 580 knots
Image
F-16 isn't
Image

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2017, 16:38
by spazsinbad

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2017, 20:24
by joost
I will personally check out the demo tomorrow for you guys 8)
Joost

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 01:33
by lbk000
spazsinbad wrote:PARIS VIDEOS VARIOUS VALIDATION: http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... -show-2017

Is it just me or did that performance look a bit messy? Hints of overbank and overpitching in some of the transitions between maneuvers.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 04:15
by JCSVT
Looks like it can actually dance pretty well. Looks like the F-22 demo without the violent pitch and post-stall maneuvers. The pedal turn was pretty impressive and looks like it regains energy pretty quickly.

One thing I've noticed about the F-22 and F-35 is how active the control surfaces on both planes are. They are constantly moving during slow speed maneuvers especially the -22. Don't see that from any other fighter out right now.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 10:15
by spazsinbad
F-35 Demo Pilot: Paris Performance Will ‘Crush Years Of Misinformation'
18 Jun 2017 Lara Seligman

"Not as agile as the Super Hornet nor as fast as the Typhoon? Don’t you believe it, says Lockheed Martin test pilot Billie Flynn. He will put the F-35A through its paces at Le Bourget this week, proving that the aircraft is more maneuverable than any he has flown, he says, including Boeing’s F/A-18, the Eurofighter, and his own company’s F-16 Viper.

“After 10 years since first flight, with our first opportunity to demonstrate the capabilities and the maneuverability of the F-35, we are going to crush years of misinformation about what this aircraft is capable of doing,” Flynn said in an interview with Aviation Week.

The F-35’s maneuverability is all the more impressive because, unlike the F-16s that perform at air shows, the Joint Strike Fighter flying the demonstration this week is fully combat-ready. Flynn’s F-35A will move easily through complex aerial maneuvers loaded with everything it needs to go to war.

“All of those airplanes that do air shows—the Hornet, Viper—they are all slicked off without all the external stores,” Flynn said. “They are a party trick at an air show, versus a combat-configured F-22 or F-35.”

The flight demonstration is carefully scripted to highlight the kinematic capabilities of the F-35A, particularly its slow-speed handling qualities, said Flynn. He will start with an afterburner takeoff, almost immediately pointing his nose to the sky and letting the aircraft climb away essentially vertically. This impressive move is unique to the F-22 and the F-35, he said.... [THEN FOLLOWS DETAILED DESCRIPTION of the show maneuvers]

...The F-35 in its current 3i configuration is limited to 7g; when the fighter gets its full war-fighting capability with the final 3F software, it will be able to pull 9gs.

“This aircraft down low in this environment is an absolute monster,” said Flynn. ”It is more powerful, it is more aggressive than any of us, including those of us that fly the F-35, would have imagined before we began this flight-demo process.”

The high show does not include the F-35 opening its weapon-bay doors, as the F-22 does during its airshow routine. The low show, which the F-35 will perform if there is inclement weather or cloud ceiling, includes opening the weapon-bay doors, according to Lockheed spokesman Mark Johnson.

Lockheed’s F-35 airshow profile has been in the works for well over a year, according to Flynn. The team has conducted over 800 simulator runs to evaluate the profile, and Flynn began practicing in the aircraft at the company’s facility in Fort Worth, Texas, about a month ago.

The company has developed air show routines for all three F-35 variants—the U.S. Navy F-35C carrier variant and the U.S. Marine Corps F-35B vertical-takeoff-and-landing variant as well—but this year Flynn is focused on the U.S. Air Force F-35A version.

Flynn had to modify the routine to accommodate airspace restrictions unique to the Paris show, he said. Flying is limited laterally and vertically because of Le Bourget’s proximity to both to the city of Paris and Charles De Gaulle Airport. Flynn is also limited by time—he only has 6 min. for the routine at Le Bourget, where at most air shows he would have 10 min.

“We focused on the ‘wow’ factor and left out the elements of a routine that would be part of a non-Paris-type profile,” Flynn said. “You have to live inside very tight restrictive boundaries, but it still permits us to put on a show that I believe will squelch the critics once and for all.”..."

Graphic:"Billie Flynn aims to silence the skeptics with complex F-35A demo flights at the Paris Air Show." http://aviationweek.com/site-files/avia ... 20card.png


Source: http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show- ... nformation

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 10:21
by doge
spazsinbad wrote:
Graphic:"Billie Flynn aims to silence the skeptics with complex F-35A demo flights at the Paris Air Show."
Image


I can't wait! excited!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 10:41
by juretrn
Image
from here https://twitter.com/rupaharia/status/87 ... 84/photo/1

the sign says ...pulls up to [9g]...
does that mean 3F?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 11:00
by spazsinbad
In my estimation it is always useful to read preceding relevant posts so that QUERIES may be answered - so on previous page with first graphic there is this:
"...The F-35 in its current 3i configuration is limited to 7g; when the fighter gets its full war-fighting capability with the final 3F software, it will be able to pull 9gs...."

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 12:04
by Dragon029

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 12:31
by popcorn
... and the irony is the war fighters say that's probably the least impressive facet of the jet. But a great show for the crowds. :applause:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 12:51
by doge
Dragon029 wrote:And here's the performance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeqryYh_yw0

Performance from 3:25 is wonderful! The angle bends is very steep! Fantastic!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 13:10
by hornetfinn
doge wrote:Performance from 3:25 is wonderful! The angle bends is very steep! Fantastic!


It sure is. Very reminiscent of F-22 performance which is very impressive to me. I'm also impressed with the power it has. Acceleration and vertical performance seem very good.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 13:23
by lbk000
my jaw dropped at 3:27, this thing drifts around corners like a spaceship, not an aircraft.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 13:43
by gideonic
Awesome performance overall! Nice and to the point, the Graph is also very helpful.

Can't help but mention though, that the pedal turn seemed underwhelming compared to practice videos before. Was he supposed to do half a rotation, instead of 360 in the end? (at ~3:35)

my jaw dropped at 3:27, this thing drifts around corners like a spaceship, not an aircraft.

Agreed, the turn right before that was insanely impressive.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 13:48
by popcorn
"Nothing a F-105 couldn't do 50 years ago .. "
- ABJSF Crowd
:devil:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 13:49
by lbk000
popcorn wrote:"Nothing a F-105 couldn't do 50 years ago .. "
- ABJSF Crowd
:devil:

Daily reminder that the Avro Arrow could fly faster than this.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 14:46
by doge
Live. Now F-35 has appeared. (Will make it in time?)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 15:59
by wrightwing
This is particularly interesting.

http://m.aviationweek.com/paris-air-sho ... nformation

"The F-35’s maneuverability is all the more impressive because, unlike the F-16s that perform at air shows, the Joint Strike Fighter flying the demonstration this week is fully combat-ready. Flynn’s F-35A will move easily through complex aerial maneuvers loaded with everything it needs to go to war."

“All of those airplanes that do air shows—the Hornet, Viper—they are all slicked off without all the external stores,” Flynn said. “They are a party trick at an air show, versus a combat-configured F-22 or F-35.”

So....that impressive display, was representative of a combat equipped F-35 (with envelope restrictions.) Imagine the display a 3F F-35 without any payload, and 5000lbs of fuel, could fly. No wonder they describe it as eye watering.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 21:13
by ricnunes
Impressive indeed!

I would love to see Solomon eating his own worlds about the "lame" F-35 display :doh:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 23:16
by magitsu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeqryYh_yw0
Compare 3:35 to Hanche's report.
Yet another quality of the F-35 becomes evident in this flight regime; using the rudder pedals I can command the nose of the airplane from side to side. The F-35 reacts quicker to my pedal inputs than the F-16 would at its maximum AOA (the F-16 would actually be out of control at this AOA). This gives me an alternate way of pointing the airplane where I need it to, in order to threaten an opponent. This «pedal turn» yields an impressive turn rate, even at low airspeeds. In a defensive situation, the «pedal turn» provides me the ability to rapidly neutralize a situation, or perhaps even reverse the roles entirely.
https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/01/heres-what-ive-learned-so-far-dogfighting-in-the-f-35-a-jsf-pilot-first-hand-account/

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2017, 23:25
by quicksilver
Dragon029 wrote:And here's the performance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeqryYh_yw0


Great find this morning doge but when I saw it this morning I thought it was too early in the a.m. (US times) for the demonstration to have already occurred (something like 4:30 pm Paris time).

Later this afternoon I found this performance video at F35.com -- https://youtu.be/93NdwZAeXhI

Note that the pilot does a quarter turn away during the vertical extension to the power loop and pedal turn setting up a 270 degree -- counter-clockwise -- pedal turn to the original heading at onset of the pull into the vertical (vice the 180 to the opposite heading). Also note hearing the clapping crowd in the background and the media presence evident during landing rollout.

Perhaps the one posted earlier is the last of the practice sessions. Dunno...both good viewing.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 00:16
by popcorn
http://breakingdefense.com/2017/06/pilo ... d-to-rest/


Pilots Say F-35 Superior Within Visual Range: Dogfight Criticisms Laid To Rest
By COLIN CLARK

PARIS AIR SHOW: After years of criticism that the F-35 would not fare well in a dogfight and analysis that the program had made a fundamental mistake relying on the plane’s ability to kill enemies beyond visual range, Air Force F-35As will fly a demonstration here this afternoon meant to put those doubts to rest.
You can read what the flight demo is intended to demonstrate on the handout below. I asked one of the Air Force pilots, Lt. Col. Scott “Cap” Gunn, here whether the F-35 would win when fighting close-up with an enemy fighter. His answer was simple: “Without a doubt.”


Gunn told reporters at a briefing here that he had gone up against a friend in an F-16 a few months ago. Though the F-35 “performed very well,” he made clear that it hadn’t been dominant. They flew again recently and the F-16 pilot was amazed by the improvement in the F-35’s performance. “What have they done to your jet?” the pilot said, according to Gunn. “The difference is we have learned how to fly the jet… and better understand where its advantages are.”

Gunn went on to say that he “either never got it within visual range, or, if I’m going to be inside visual range, then it’s because I’m going to choose to be there.” That seems to make clear the aircraft’s vaunted fusion engine and advanced sensors — all tied into the pilot’s helmet — provides the pilot with enough warning and data to allow him to decide the terms of combat.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 00:31
by spazsinbad
Graphic from BrakeDaFence 'popcorn' post above: http://breakingdefense.com/wp-content/u ... 24x788.jpg

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 00:34
by jetblast16
OK, just watched the first official demo of the F-35 at the Paris air show. Very impressive. Flynn flew a nice, crisp routine. This plane's got power. The vertical climbing ability is solid. The F-35 can "play the vertical" if it wants. The acceleration out of high alpha into a steep climb was, frankly, a little surprising (to me). The aircraft literally started accelerating almost immediately. Coupled with an INSANE instantaneous turn rate, once they fully open up the flight envelope on this jet, "Stubby" or "Tubby" or "The Misunderstood" is going to kick some serious butt WVR. This coupled with fuel burn and thrust improvements to an engine that is already second to none :devil:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 00:39
by quicksilver
jetblast16 wrote: ..."Stubby" or "Tubby" or "The Misunderstood" is going to kick some serious butt WVR.


It already does... :wink: 8)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 03:55
by steve2267
I've already stated somewhere around here that from certain angles, the fuselage curves / fuselage - wing blending of the F-16 evoke the graceful curves of the Spitfire. I often think of the F-16 as the "Spitfire" of the modern jet age.

From certain angles, the F-35 forebody fuselage reminds me of the angular nature of the Star Wars X-Wing.

But even so, the F-35 is what the F-16 should have been. Or the F-35 is the culmination of the F-16 (if that makes sense.)

Watching the F-35 perform these latest aerial demonstrations, the one word that keeps coming to mind is: effortless.

The Lightning is almost too smooth; she makes it look too easy.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 08:00
by gideonic
Well it seems Tom Demerly is not pleased (with a nice clickbait heading) :P
Lockheed Martin Test Pilot Billie Flynn just performed his first F-35A Flight Demo At Paris Air Show. Did he “crush years of misinformation about what this aircraft is capable of doing” as promised?

At the 2:00 mark in the video test pilot Flynn positions the F-35A at show left and performs a high-alpha, ultra low speed pass, standing the Lightning II on her tail and dancing across the Paris sky as the aircraft’s twinkle-toed elevators maintain stable flight on a boiling cushion of thrust from her growling Pratt & Whitney F135 engine. It is a spectacular sight. Enough to silence the skeptics? Hard to say. Most probably not enough, considered what people are used to see when a 4th Gen. aircraft or the F-22 are able to do during an airshow routine.

Honestly speaking the new PAS 2017 routine seems to be more dynamic than expected. But in terms of instantaneous and sustained turn rates the F-35 does not seem to match the performance of the famous super-maneuverable Sukhois, Eurofighter Typhoon, Gripen or Rafale (to name but few).

https://theaviationist.com/2017/06/19/h ... -opposite/

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 08:09
by popcorn
So who is Tom Demerly?
https://tomdemerly.com/about/

Tom Demerly has written technical, editorial and equipment review articles for Outside, Velo-News, Bicycle Guide, Bicycling, Inside Triathlon, Triathlete, Triathlon Today!, USA Triathlon Magazine and many other publications.
more..

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 09:03
by hornetfinn
It seems like some people will never admit F-35 maneuverability and flight performance is very good now and will get even better in the future when envelope is further opened up. I've tried to find some evidence that those aircraft mentioned by Tom Demerly have better instantaneous or sustained turn rate to what F-35A showed in Paris and have found very little. I'd say F-35A performance was very similar to what slicked Eurofighter Typhoon has displayed but with better high AoA capabilities. Sukhois can do some impressive tricks especially with TVC, but overall is not that special when it comes to acceleration or turn rates.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 09:36
by spazsinbad
:applause: :mrgreen: Yo Dood - Proud of ya son! Billie must be younga than me but hey all that G does wonders for your complexion. :doh: Is that a FENIX watch on Billie?
F-35A Aerial Demonstration Takes Center Stage at World’s Largest Air Show
19 Jun 2017 LM PR

"...While the idea to perform a public demonstration was discussed for several years, that dream only became a reality within the last several months. Flynn, along with a team of engineers and graphic artists, worked in secret to develop a dazzling profile chock-full of 90 degree climbs, 6G turns and a pedal turn that makes the jet appear to float like a butterfly.

“We had an idea of what the show should look like,” Flynn said. “We then paired up with our engineers who helped us build maneuvers to highlight specific capabilities we wanted to emphasize. From there we fine-tuned the show in the simulator and then over the airfield in Fort Worth.”

The team of engineers, graphic professionals and animation experts flew the profile in flight simulators more than 700 times. They analyzed the data collected to develop a routine and create safety profiles in the event of an emergency. The team created animated profiles precisely mimicking the flight and as a result, Flynn was permitted to move forward with the aerial demonstration.

While it all looked great on paper and in the simulator, the real test was flying it in real life. According to Flynn, after just 10 practice flights, the team was pleasantly surprised by how predictable, repeatable and safe the aircraft’s performance was each time he flew....

...Seeing is Believing
This aerial demonstration is the first real glimpse the world will have of the robust capabilities of the F-35A. In 2016, the F-35B flew an aerial demonstration at the Royal International Air Tattoo and the Farnborough Air Show in the U.K., but that demonstration centered around the F-35B’s hover capability. The F-35A’s show emphasizes the jets aerobatic maneuvering and the jet’s raw power to climb and turn.

“Everyone needs to see how an aircraft flies and performs before they’ll ever believe in it,” Flynn said. “As compelling, overwhelming and dominating as stealth, 5th Generation aircraft are, it’s really difficult for everyone to understand the concept of what this aircraft is like without witnessing it fly in a way they are accustomed to seeing fighters perform.”

For Flynn, the demonstration is confirmation of what he believed the F-35 could do from its inception. “It is such a rush, flying the jet, and being a part of this,” Flynn said. “I’m honored to be here representing the F-35 program and Lockheed Martin and flying on behalf of the U.S. Air Force at the Paris Air Show. Seeing is truly believing!”"

Photo:"Flynn reviews notes with fellow F-35 test pilot, Jeff "Trigger" Wallace [on left of pic]. https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a6 ... __main.jpg


Source: https://www.f35.com/in-depth/detail/f-3 ... t-air-show

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 09:40
by gideonic
hornetfinn wrote:It seems like some people will never admit F-35 maneuverability and flight performance is very good now and will get even better in the future when envelope is further opened up. I've tried to find some evidence that those aircraft mentioned by Tom Demerly have better instantaneous or sustained turn rate to what F-35A showed in Paris and have found very little. I'd say F-35A performance was very similar to what slicked Eurofighter Typhoon has displayed but with better high AoA capabilities. Sukhois can do some impressive tricks especially with TVC, but overall is not that special when it comes to acceleration or turn rates.


Yeah, i agree. I just rewatched PAK-FAs performance and in MAKS 2015 (yes I realize it's an underweight prototype of an underpowered fighter etc, etc), while it also did quite a nice "pedal-turn" lookalike, it was with thrust vectoring. The Acceleration and turn rates were pretty bad compared to F-35.

But regarding the eurocanards, I can understand his point of view a little bit (if I reeeaally stretch it though). Take a look at the Rafale practice session from Paris show this year. At 6:25 and onwards. Yes I know the Rafale is far from combat configuration (unlike the F-35A), so it's nowhere near a from a fair comparison, but there is a noticable difference in turn rate (at least F-35 did nothing similar during it's show).

I'm pretty sure this will change with Block 3F and a 9G. Hopfully that will shut the detractors up. And regardless as far as thrust is concerned, the competitors have absolutley nothing on F-35A ... even the F-22 runs into trouble competing at low altitude, it would seem! (no wonder though, it weights 4 metric tons more than a B-17G, when empty, and the same when loaded, for crying out loud)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 10:46
by spazsinbad
F-35A Makes Air Show Demo Debut as Program Picks up Speed
20 Jun 2017 Adam J. Hebert

"Le Bourget, France—The F-35A made its first-ever public demonstration flight here June 19, performing a six-minute routine meant to showcase the stealthy strike fighter’s combat capabilities. Lockheed Martin chief test pilot Alan Norman noted the routine, which closed out the day’s flying schedule, was done in a combat-ready [3i] aircraft. It included a high-rate-of-climb afterburner takeoff, a 100-knot 50-degree angle of attack low-speed pass, and a 7G minimum-radius turn.

Lockheed Martin designed and flew the routine because of the Air Force's resource limitations surrounding the F-35, although Lockheed and USAF officials noted this is exactly how the F-22’s air show routine also began a decade ago. USAF is working its way through pilot and maintainer shortages that limit its F-35 flexibility...

...Asked if an F-35 could be expected to win a close-range dogfight against most other aircraft, Lt. Col. Scott Gunn simply declared, “Without a doubt.” Gunn, an operational support squadron commander at Eglin AFB, Fla., F-35A evaluator pilot, and former AFA-Mitchell Institute fellow, flew one of the aircraft on the 10.5-hour flight from the United States to France.

Jeff Babione, Lockheed Martin’s F-35 general manager, said the company is now delivering five aircraft per month, and 220 of the fighters are now in use by eight nations and at a dozen operational bases. The unit flyaway price for USAF’s most recent “Block 10” purchase is down to $94.6 million, continuing a trend line Lockheed hopes will lead to a cost of $85 million per aircraft in 2019...."

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... Speed.aspx

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 11:58
by lbk000
wrightwing wrote:So....that impressive display, was representative of a combat equipped F-35 (with envelope restrictions.) Imagine the display a 3F F-35 without any payload, and 5000lbs of fuel, could fly. No wonder they describe it as eye watering.

IDK, when they opened the bay doors during the low routine practice there wasn't anything inside. I doubt they'd only load up the plane when it's the real deal, that would defeat the purpose of practice.
"Combat configured" is a pretty vague statement, it doesn't specify any particular load. IMO it's just PR ammo to really reinforce the positive impression from the demo routine.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 12:05
by spazsinbad
Probably when ready the F-35 will be loaded with things. At moment I think the reference is to 3i software load which is the USAF IOC configuration for combat. Capice? From first article above yourn:
"...Lockheed Martin chief test pilot Alan Norman noted the routine, which closed out the day’s flying schedule, was done in a combat-ready [3i] aircraft...."


It would be very helpful if spokeswheelPeeps said comprehensible things instead of burbling nonsense or reporters burble nonsense - I'm not sure which - I was not there.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 12:25
by hornetfinn
lbk000 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:So....that impressive display, was representative of a combat equipped F-35 (with envelope restrictions.) Imagine the display a 3F F-35 without any payload, and 5000lbs of fuel, could fly. No wonder they describe it as eye watering.

IDK, when they opened the bay doors during the low routine practice there wasn't anything inside. I doubt they'd only load up the plane when it's the real deal, that would defeat the purpose of practice.
"Combat configured" is a pretty vague statement, it doesn't specify any particular load. IMO it's just PR ammo to really reinforce the positive impression from the demo routine.


Well, F-35 in airshows would basically only need those weapons and fuel to go to combat. Most other fighters would also need external fuel tanks (very rare not to), targeting pod (for A/G) and possibly ECM pod along with pylons to carry all that. And let's not forget all the support assets 4th gen fighters would need to be effective and survive (EW support, decoys, SEAD/DEAD, counter-air).

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 12:28
by gideonic
lbk000 wrote:"Combat configured" is a pretty vague statement, it doesn't specify any particular load. IMO it's just PR ammo to really reinforce the positive impression from the demo routine.

I really hope they will eventually load the F-35 up for the demos (as RAF did with the Eurofighter), at the very least in air-to-air config.

Considering how little 4 AMRAAMs would change the overall picture: no extra drag and just about 600kg (1340 lbs) extra weight (there should be no pylons within the weapons bay, right?). I mean, you could loose about the same weight just by using the afterburner for about a minute (give or take) :D

Just imagine a F-35A doing a 9G demo and then, near the end, revealing that it was literally in full (air-to-air) combat configuration, by showing the internals of the weapons bay :drool:

IMO it would be really stupid to pass on such an awesome publicity stunt. I'm also pretty sure that LM is aware of this and will do it at some point in the future

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 13:20
by quicksilver
I would dare say that there isnt gonna be much difference between a 7g display and a 9g display. 'G' onset rate might appear to be different because the pilot can do a limiter pull (vice manual limiting), but that's about it. 7g is probably what the jet sustains down low and given the demo they currently fly I'm not sure they ever get to 9g corner speed (which I assume to be somewhere above 350KCAS).

WRT 'combat configuration' I think many pilot/industry types who are quoted assume that an aerospace audience understands that a display F-35 is already carrying a T-pod and IRST, a sophisticated EW and countermeasures system, and an amount of fuel that would require the addition of 2-3 external tanks by almost all other fighters. And, of course, a meaningful weapons load could be carried internally without the signifcant addition of drag incurred by others. Therefore its 'display' performance is much more representative of its aerodynamic performance operationally than tricked-out show ponies (or whatever he called them).

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 13:53
by twistedneck
popcorn wrote:So who is Tom Demerly?
https://tomdemerly.com/about/

Tom Demerly has written technical, editorial and equipment review articles for Outside, Velo-News, Bicycle Guide, Bicycling, Inside Triathlon, Triathlete, Triathlon Today!, USA Triathlon Magazine and many other publications.
more..


Demerly is a bad a$$ dood and its not a crime that he is also a triathlete and mega endurance runner. he used to run a bikeshop in Dearborn Michigan and all the top pros would hang out there. He is an endurance sports legend and has a strong military background. He is NOT a bull shitter I can promise you that.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 13:55
by doge
About the ‘pedal turn’!
http://www.combataircraft.net/2017/06/1 ... -in-paris/
F-35 puts in a ‘Beast’ of a display in Paris
Lockheed Martin has performed the first public flying demonstration with a US Air Force F-35A Lightning II at this week’s Paris Air Show. Flown by Lockheed Martin test pilot Billie Flynn, the display is the first aerobatic routine by the F-35A.

The display is aimed at silencing critics who say the F-35 struggles with maneuverability, especially in close-quarters engagements — the within visual range (WVR) arena.

Speaking at the show today, USAF F-35A pilot Lt Col Scott ‘Cap’ Gunn said the six-minute display was designed to showcase power and angle of attack (AoA) attributes of the F-35, saying: ‘the more you can point [the nose of the jet], the more effective you can be.’

One of the sequences of the display sees Flynn fly a ‘pedal turn’, designed to demonstrate the post-stall flying qualities of the F-35. Gunn says: ‘I fly a lot of BFM [basic fighter maneuvers} where I try to get slow. I fly mostly with the pedals; the control laws allow the jet to rotate and go where I want it to turn.’

The F-35 at the show is flying with Block 3i software, meaning it is limited to 7g. However, it can fly to above 50 degrees AoA.

Lockheed Martin’s chief test pilot Al Norman says the F-35 has ‘tremendous instantaneous pitch rate’, adding that in his opinion only the F-22 has superior post-stall performance.

Norman referred to a ‘Beast mode’ in the display; here, Flynn powers off the runway and also out of the high AoA slow pass, utilizing the 40,000lb of thrust on offer.

Lt Col Gunn said the show was being flown with a loadout representative of internal AIM-120 AMRAAMs. Of course, the F-35s primary close-in weapon will be externally mounted AIM-9Xs, so this display isn’t fully representative of how the F-35 will fly close-in BFM, however Norman says carrying external Sidewinders has little impact on performance. It is also worth noting that the envelope will be expanded out to 9g with the forthcoming Block 3F software.

Whilst it was good to see the F-35 being put through its paces in a full-up aerobatic routine, it’s worth noting that there was nothing here that hasn’t been seen in displays by other aircraft. The ‘falling leaf’ pedal turn sequence was arguably the most impressive, and the F-35 is clearly no Raptor

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 14:11
by spazsinbad
I'll keep a lookout for the 'CombatAircraft Magazine' PDF article....

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 15:11
by smsgtmac
twistedneck wrote: Demerly is a bad a$$ dood and its not a crime that he is also a triathlete and mega endurance runner. he used to run a bikeshop in Dearborn Michigan and all the top pros would hang out there. He is an endurance sports legend and has a strong military background. He is NOT a bull shitter I can promise you that.


None of which has anything to do with fighters or fighter design, an area. where he appears to be a complete and total ignoramus. https://twitter.com/SMSgt_Mac/status/876891388557832192

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 15:22
by sferrin
smsgtmac wrote:
twistedneck wrote: Demerly is a bad a$$ dood and its not a crime that he is also a triathlete and mega endurance runner. he used to run a bikeshop in Dearborn Michigan and all the top pros would hang out there. He is an endurance sports legend and has a strong military background. He is NOT a bull shitter I can promise you that.


None of which has anything to do with fighters or fighter design, an area. where he appears to be a complete and total ignoramus. https://twitter.com/SMSgt_Mac/status/876891388557832192


And he has a habit of removing posts that don't agree with him. He's not as bad as Solomon, you don't have to kiss his a$$, but you do need to toe the part line or get your posts removed, or not approved. (He has it set up where your posts have to be approved if you have a history of calling him on his bull$hit.)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 16:05
by mk82
gideonic wrote:Well it seems Tom Demerly is not pleased (with a nice clickbait heading) :P
Lockheed Martin Test Pilot Billie Flynn just performed his first F-35A Flight Demo At Paris Air Show. Did he “crush years of misinformation about what this aircraft is capable of doing” as promised?

At the 2:00 mark in the video test pilot Flynn positions the F-35A at show left and performs a high-alpha, ultra low speed pass, standing the Lightning II on her tail and dancing across the Paris sky as the aircraft’s twinkle-toed elevators maintain stable flight on a boiling cushion of thrust from her growling Pratt & Whitney F135 engine. It is a spectacular sight. Enough to silence the skeptics? Hard to say. Most probably not enough, considered what people are used to see when a 4th Gen. aircraft or the F-22 are able to do during an airshow routine.

Honestly speaking the new PAS 2017 routine seems to be more dynamic than expected. But in terms of instantaneous and sustained turn rates the F-35 does not seem to match the performance of the famous super-maneuverable Sukhois, Eurofighter Typhoon, Gripen or Rafale (to name but few).

https://theaviationist.com/2017/06/19/h ... -opposite/


Should stick to f*cking bicycles

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 16:23
by gta4
I think some critics are ignorant. They ignore some maneuvers that are incredible for a non-thrust vectored jet.

It is incredible that F-35 has such a high pitch rate, and such a high yaw authority.

I believe this maneuver could dominate all non-thrust-vectored aircrafts, including Typhoon, Gripen, Mig-29 and Su-27.

During the initial backflip, the initial pitch rate is amazing, and the whole 270 deg took less than 8 seconds. Faster than any non-thrust vectored jets.

The 360 pedal turn that followed is much faster than any conventional turns performed by other non-thrust-vectored jets.

Image

This maneuvers allows F-35 to turn inside of any non-thrust-vectored jets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkAmQpkrHZc

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 21:00
by spazsinbad
Why do we need to see this GIF animation three times already? At least tell us you have done so on 3 different threads.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 21:12
by spazsinbad

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 22:31
by quicksilver
Anyone got a day 2 video? Am told the pedal turn was better (and if you're looking, it should be clockwise and full 360 degrees).

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 22:59
by popcorn
gideonic wrote:Just imagine a F-35A doing a 9G demo and then, near the end, revealing that it was literally in full (air-to-air) combat configuration, by showing the internals of the weapons bay :drool:

IMO it would be really stupid to pass on such an awesome publicity stunt. I'm also pretty sure that LM is aware of this and will do it at some point in the future

Unless they've changed their thinking on the matter, I don't look forward to any such display. The F-22 would only display an empty bay during demos. When I queried Dozer on Fence Check why no weapons he hedged a bit and said he wasn't sure but perhaps it was a safety issue. Didn't pursue it further with him.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 23:27
by spazsinbad
Article repeats what has been seen here in other articles however the last paragraph is interesting. Worth a read anyway.
F-35 Air Demo Debut Highlighted Combat Maneuvering
21 Jun 2017 Adam J. Hebert

"...Finally, although the Air Force has not yet identified the root cause of five unexplained, hypoxia-like physiological incidents affecting F-35s at Luke AFB, Ariz., Gunn [Lt. Col. Scott Gunn, operational support squadron commander at Eglin AFB, Fla., and an F-35 instructor pilot] said he had enough confidence in the jet that he had no qualms about making the ten-and-a-half hour flight over the Atlantic to bring the F-35 to the Paris Air Show."

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... ering.aspx

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 01:28
by arrow-nautics
Here's 2 interesting videos. Please note, we don't know if the F-16C pilot is pushing the jet to its limits. The F-35A turn is Billie Flynn from yesterday.

Also in video 2, the F-16C challenges the F/A-18E/F & the F-22. Once again, is the SH or Raptor pilot pulling out all the stops?

Finally, if in video 2...if that's the SH's maximum then please NO ONE tell me that the SH beats the F-35A - which has been asserted by Tom Demerly earlier today. These videos are NOT definitive BUT nevertheless should lave haters with acid indigestion!





NOTE: F-16C is clean!!! They're all clean. Still, sticking to the F-16C in the analysis - if the pilot is letting up or not pushing to its max, would the F-16C in combat configuration doing the max be on par with what we see the F-16C do here cleanly?

I can hear the detractors now. An X versus Y versus Z turn comparison of the 3 during different flights, different radiuses & distances is not a fair balanced comparison. That is, maybe the SH wasn't pulling max. So the X, Y & Z analysis is flawed. HOWEVER, these turns all seem pretty tight. The author of the 2 videos is IMO closer to the mark than he is in missing the mark!

Thoughts? Too "apples to oranges"? Or, while this is not proof it's still "interesting?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 01:39
by count_to_10
popcorn wrote:
gideonic wrote:Just imagine a F-35A doing a 9G demo and then, near the end, revealing that it was literally in full (air-to-air) combat configuration, by showing the internals of the weapons bay :drool:

IMO it would be really stupid to pass on such an awesome publicity stunt. I'm also pretty sure that LM is aware of this and will do it at some point in the future

Unless they've changed their thinking on the matter, I don't look forward to any such display. The F-22 would only display an empty bay during demos. When I queried Dozer on Fence Check why no weapons he hedged a bit and said he wasn't sure but perhaps it was a safety issue. Didn't pursue it further with him.

Maybe they could use inert versions.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 01:50
by popcorn
If safety is the concern then a falling inert weapon can still do damage.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 02:00
by count_to_10
popcorn wrote:If safety is the concern then a falling inert weapon can still do damage.

So can a falling landing gear. Is a dummy bomb coming loose really that likely?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 02:04
by popcorn
count_to_10 wrote:
popcorn wrote:If safety is the concern then a falling inert weapon can still do damage.

So can a falling landing gear. Is a dummy bomb coming loose really that likely?

I accept Dozer's reply.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 02:06
by jetblast16
Watched some more videos of the F-35 at Paris. That F-135 makes a thunderous, crackling sound in full blower. Brute force!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 02:23
by jetblast16
The F-35 must produce a large, low pressure vortex over its upper body, one that flows between the two vertical stabilizers. At higher angles of attack, this must produce an enormous lift potential. Some of that flow must strike the two all-moving horizontal stabilizers, for exceptional pitch rates, due also in part to their size (surface areas). Watching the "pedal turn" maneuver, it almost seemed like the two horizontals initiated it with a differential "flick". The advanced flight control laws, moving all control surfaces throughout the envelope, the strong, energized air over the upper body of the jet and the sledgehammer power from the jet's engine, makes the F-35A very maneuverable. What do you guys think?

After watching as many videos of the jet as I could of it at Paris, I then started to read some of the online opinions of some "informed" commentators. Unbelievable some people's viewpoints!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 02:39
by sferrin
jetblast16 wrote:I then started to read some of the online opinions of some "informed" commentators.


Yep. It's scary how many willingly ignorant there are. Idiocracy is already here. :bang:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 02:53
by jetblast16
Oh, regarding F-35 maneuvering potential from my prior post; the center of gravity aft of the center of pressure also attributing to its stunning pitch rate. The high alpha capability of 50+ degrees and pitch rate, coupled with the flight control laws, must also assist (or provide for) its unusual instantaneous turning rate. Obviously in the "pedal turn", the rudders on the vertical stabilizers are also responsible for yawing the jet, in what is essentially, a near flat spin.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 02:56
by arrow-nautics
I am avoiding commenting sections at all costs right now. NO! It'll just make me angry. I'll wait around a bit for all these various attacks to get culled in to blog release by the usual (basement) suspects.

What's odd is I can predict what they'll say. Detract, Disinform, Defer, Deflect, Deny, Debunk, Dispel & Destroy. I haven't read a comment yet but I BET there's a "...F-35 high alpha drinks fuel ha ha ha..."

My response: And the SH doesn't on high alpha? :doh:

Blah blah blah.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 02:59
by jetblast16
The Super Hornet wished it had the energy management capabilities of an F-35A. I read one comment, where a poster essentially praised the jet (by accident), by trying to bash it, because of its (very) powerful engine and flight control laws LOL

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 03:11
by arrow-nautics
In a way I do want to mix it up & slam their nonsense. But the reason there is a brave noise coming from the other side is that we have won! For now anyway.

1nyhdl.jpg


Image

For today, we won so I'll say nothing...the haters haven't figured out the "say less" part yet. :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 08:59
by Fox1
I was thoroughly impressed by the new F-35A demo. I really didn't expect to see the aircraft put through its paces like that just yet. I loved seeing the pilot light the burner, pull into the vertical and at the top of his climb....come over the top with a Mongo Flip type maneuver before going into the pedal turn. I honestly had no idea an aircraft could pull off a post stall maneuver like that without the assistance of vectored thrust. It is incredible seeing the F-22 do that. But it was downright shocking to see the F-35 do it. That was totally unexpected, at least to me. After seeing that display, I have no doubts that the F-35 can also do the cobra, the J turn and the tail slide as well.

But beyond all the circus stunt maneuvers that wow air show audiences, I was really most impressed by the raw power and acceleration of the F-35. It pitches into the vertical better than anything I've ever seen that isn't an F-22 Raptor. It recovers energy very quickly coming out of aggressive maneuvers. Seeing the pilot select full afterburner and accelerate into the vertical coming out of the high alpha pass was a thing of beauty. No wonder so many pilots of "Teen" series fighters favored the F-35 over their previous mounts when it comes to fighting in the vertical. It is a beast in that regard.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 09:52
by Dragon029
They had a live Q&A on the F-35 Facebook page, with Al Norman doing the answering:

https://www.facebook.com/thef35/videos/ ... 095293640/

Youtube mirror:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0On-GMTSWvc


Some key takeaways:

The high alpha slow pass goes below 100 knots.

The plane is intended to hit 50 degree angles of attack at the top of the square loop and during the loop that comes before the pedal turn.

(Although already stated) the min radius turn was indeed also a max G turn at roughly 7Gs.

No known plans to bring the same demo to RIAT / Farnborough next year, but it's possible.

The demo was not done at full internal fuel, instead it was done at a weight where by the time that they've done a 6-8 minute demo, they have a standard landing weight / fuel load (someone want to try and reverse engineer what fuel load they'd be starting with then?). Despite that, Beesley says they could fly that demo at any fuel weight.

The demo was done at 'combat configured weights'.

No GoPro cockpit footage any time soon thanks to military regulations.

"In just a few months we're going to start flying jets from our factory, in Fort Worth, that contain that 3F software. By the end of the year / the beginning of next year, all the jets in the fleet that are capable, will be retrofit and start flying with the 3F software."

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 12:15
by citanon
Is it unusual for a fighter to have that high a pitch rate at the low air speed during the demo?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 12:25
by popcorn
Actually it's Al Norman... :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 14:20
by brillo
How does this demo compare to the other fighters shown like the Saab or Eurofighter for those who watched? The Saab demo seemed pretty impressive from a maneurability standpoint.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 16:10
by steve2267
brillo wrote:How does this demo compare to the other fighters shown like the Saab or Eurofighter for those who watched? The Saab demo seemed pretty impressive from a maneurability standpoint.


Saab demo'd the Gripen? I hadn't heard the Gripen was going to perform at Paris 2017. You're not by chance thinking of the Rafale, are you?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 16:41
by botsing
steve2267 wrote:
brillo wrote:How does this demo compare to the other fighters shown like the Saab or Eurofighter for those who watched? The Saab demo seemed pretty impressive from a maneurability standpoint.


Saab demo'd the Gripen? I hadn't heard the Gripen was going to perform at Paris 2017. You're not by chance thinking of the Rafale, are you?

Yes, he must mean the Rafale demo since no Saab jet fighter was flown at Paris 2017.

The Rafale validation flight looked rather nice too:


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 17:00
by brillo
Apologies I meant the Rafale demo you just provided.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 17:48
by citanon
popcorn wrote:Actually it's Al Norman... :D


Just realizing the combination of performance parameters and F35's lack of thrust vectoring in the Paris demo did not make sense.

The aerodynamic configuration is more special than I thought, and I had already thought it was pretty special. :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 18:49
by steve2267
That Rafale aerial demonstration video gave me newfound appreciation for the Rafale. A beautiful airplane for sure. It seemed to roll a bit faster than the F-35A in its demo flights. Don't know if that is by design (i.e. F-35 could roll faster) or not. My impression is that the Rafale might be a bit more agile than the F-35A, but I just can't tell from the videos. I did find the Rafale demonstration thoroughly enjoyable. But at the same time, there was no "wow" factor or "pop" like the F-35A square loop / falling pedal turn.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 18:54
by steve2267
citanon wrote:
Just realizing the combination of performance parameters and F35's lack of thrust vectoring in the Paris demo did not make sense.

The aerodynamic configuration is more special than I thought, and I had already thought it was pretty special. :D


I think there has been a general "opinion" amongst the (self-imagined) fighter intelligencia that since the F-35A does not have large LERX/forebody strakes nor canards, that it must not be as agile or maneuverable as the F-16 / FA-18 / Rafale / Typhoon / Gripen, nor does it have the thrust vectoring of the F-22.

I suspect, however, that the LM engineers have performed some aerodynamic magic through the combination of the nose chine, air intake "lip" (or chine?), and the short LERX just before the wing. By themselves maybe no great shakes, but together they sure seem to be getting the job done - esp. combine with the LEF & TEF plus those huge stabs.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 19:04
by Dragon029
Unless they're lowered the rates for controllability, the F-35A can certainly roll faster than it did at Paris - in this video for example, AF-2 rolls at a rate of about 270 deg/s. In the Paris F-35A demos the fastest I cared to measure was about 200 deg/s:

https://youtu.be/IP0tsNszz7I?t=20
(20 seconds in it does a 360+ roll; then it does another roll ~5 seconds later)


The Rafale demo was definitely quite nice, though as much should be expected from a clean 4.5th gen.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 19:31
by steve2267
Dragon029 wrote:
The Rafale demo was definitely quite nice, though as much should be expected from a clean 4.5th gen.


Thank you for the comments regarding the F-35A roll performance along with the video.

I seem to recall comments that the Rafale is "about the same as" an F-16C Block 50 in regards to maneuverability. Without getting into arguments over numbers in specific parts of the flight regime, is this considered generally true: that the F-16C Block 50 and Rafale are "roughly equivalent" vis-a-vis performance / maneuverability? Or were the comments I am recalling specifically gearted towards "turn performance"?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 19:33
by lbk000
The Rafale is showing off a good performance in a speed regime that combat aircraft have been designed to fly well in for a few decades now, but the low speed and vertical performance isn't nearly as convincing as the F-35's. My bet is that once they lift all the seals on the F-35 and people (especially foreign pilots) start bashing them around we'll see some really nutty performances out of the aircraft.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 19:57
by citanon
steve2267 wrote:
citanon wrote:
Just realizing the combination of performance parameters and F35's lack of thrust vectoring in the Paris demo did not make sense.

The aerodynamic configuration is more special than I thought, and I had already thought it was pretty special. :D


I think there has been a general "opinion" amongst the (self-imagined) fighter intelligencia that since the F-35A does not have large LERX/forebody strakes nor canards, that it must not be as agile or maneuverable as the F-16 / FA-18 / Rafale / Typhoon / Gripen, nor does it have the thrust vectoring of the F-22.

I suspect, however, that the LM engineers have performed some aerodynamic magic through the combination of the nose chine, air intake "lip" (or chine?), and the short LERX just before the wing. By themselves maybe no great shakes, but together they sure seem to be getting the job done - esp. combine with the LEF & TEF plus those huge stabs.


What didn't compute for me in this demo is the amount of control and pitch authority they fighter had at what seemed like very low airspeed. How did they generate so much maneuvering force with so little airflow over the surfaces? Suspect there's some additional secret sauce in the aerodynamic configuration hidden in plain sight. ;)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 20:12
by krorvik
steve2267 wrote:My impression is that the Rafale might be a bit more agile than the F-35A, but I just can't tell from the videos.


The Rafale in that video, of course, was clean.... buy yes, good show :)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 20:22
by doge
This...looks like modestly quickly turn.
How about...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 21:25
by steve2267
The Rafale appeared to be rolling quicker than the F-35 in its Paris debut, and that higher roll rate may have colored my "impressions" -- i.e. subconsciously thinking "it seems to be rolling quicker, therefore it must be turning quicker."

As I watch the F-35A performance, though, it seems very precise, very graceful -- almost effortless.

I'm going to have to re-phrase my earlier description of the F-35:

F-35 recipe:

Mix:
1) One part F-16 (energy management / recoverability)
2) One part FA-18 (high alpha / nose-pointing)
3) One part A-7 (for avionics)

Sprinkle on F-117 magic pixie dust, a B-2 disappear switch, a little F-22 post-stall maneuverability, but keep the TVing (you don't need it)

and bake.

I think there is some Sony Playstation 10 in there somewhere, but I'm not sure. :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 21:42
by bayernfan
A little confused b/c I have seen a few videos recently regarding F-35 in Paris airshow. I think one of them is the actual presentation, others were practices. And the pedal turn showed is kind of different in one video (180 degree vs 360 degree?). Which one is the most impressive one?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 22:08
by spazsinbad
:devil: The one pedal/practice that impressed YOU most is the MOST impressive one - SHIRLEY?! :doh:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 23:35
by JCSVT
steve2267 wrote:
citanon wrote:
Just realizing the combination of performance parameters and F35's lack of thrust vectoring in the Paris demo did not make sense.

The aerodynamic configuration is more special than I thought, and I had already thought it was pretty special. :D


I think there has been a general "opinion" amongst the (self-imagined) fighter intelligencia that since the F-35A does not have large LERX/forebody strakes nor canards, that it must not be as agile or maneuverable as the F-16 / FA-18 / Rafale / Typhoon / Gripen, nor does it have the thrust vectoring of the F-22.

I suspect, however, that the LM engineers have performed some aerodynamic magic through the combination of the nose chine, air intake "lip" (or chine?), and the short LERX just before the wing. By themselves maybe no great shakes, but together they sure seem to be getting the job done - esp. combine with the LEF & TEF plus those huge stabs.

I'm no aero engineer but from everything I've read, the nose chines of the F-22 and F-35 are very involved in airflow management while reducing RCS at the same time.

There's a reason that everyone is copying that design for their 5th gen fighters.

The thing I've noticed the most about the LM designs are those huge stabs and how far back they are placed relative to the engine nozzles. I think it obviously helps generate the wild pitch rates both planes have. Only fighters I've noticed with that design feature.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 23:36
by disconnectedradical
steve2267 wrote:
citanon wrote:
Just realizing the combination of performance parameters and F35's lack of thrust vectoring in the Paris demo did not make sense.

The aerodynamic configuration is more special than I thought, and I had already thought it was pretty special. :D


I think there has been a general "opinion" amongst the (self-imagined) fighter intelligencia that since the F-35A does not have large LERX/forebody strakes nor canards, that it must not be as agile or maneuverable as the F-16 / FA-18 / Rafale / Typhoon / Gripen, nor does it have the thrust vectoring of the F-22.

I suspect, however, that the LM engineers have performed some aerodynamic magic through the combination of the nose chine, air intake "lip" (or chine?), and the short LERX just before the wing. By themselves maybe no great shakes, but together they sure seem to be getting the job done - esp. combine with the LEF & TEF plus those huge stabs.


Actually the F-35 (and the F-22) DOES have LERX and chines. Check out the sharp protrusions right behind the intakes.

Paris Demo wasn't bad but not as aggressive as I had hoped. I think the initial pitch rate might be hampered by the 7g limit it currently has.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2017, 23:54
by count_to_10
JCSVT wrote:I'm no aero engineer but from everything I've read, the nose chines of the F-22 and F-35 are very involved in airflow management while reducing RCS at the same time.

There's a reason that everyone is copying that design for their 5th gen fighters.

The thing I've noticed the most about the LM designs are those huge stabs and how far back they are placed relative to the engine nozzles. I think it obviously helps generate the wild pitch rates both planes have. Only fighters I've noticed with that design feature.

Northrop' YF-23 had even bigger stabs, though how far back they were was somewhat disguised by the length of the exhaust channels.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northro ... p_view.jpg

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 01:36
by lbk000
citanon wrote:What didn't compute for me in this demo is the amount of control and pitch authority they fighter had at what seemed like very low airspeed. How did they generate so much maneuvering force with so little airflow over the surfaces? Suspect there's some additional secret sauce in the aerodynamic configuration hidden in plain sight. ;)

I am curious about this too. I'm of the belief that the design is highly optimized for vortex retention and management. It's interesting to note that the F-35's primary vortex uniquely manages to propagate inboards, likely being drawn in by the nose chine/inner intake lip vortex. There's some sort of interaction then with the LE root vortex that I don't understand (perhaps delay breakdown?), but it seems that the result is energized airflow being directed straight where it needs to go -- over the tail feathers.

bayernfan wrote:A little confused b/c I have seen a few videos recently regarding F-35 in Paris airshow. I think one of them is the actual presentation, others were practices. And the pedal turn showed is kind of different in one video (180 degree vs 360 degree?). Which one is the most impressive one?

I enjoyed this practice run far more than the demo proper:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeqryYh_yw0
The sun suddenly lighting up the vortices as it enters the pedal turn is one of the most memorable things I've seen.
The number of revolutions doesn't really matter so much as the ability to effortlessly enter and exit at will.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 03:22
by Gums
Salute!

The vortex mangement was a biggie for the Viper, and for the Hornet prototype.

The relaxed static stability and another aero consideration resulted in the 25 -30 degree A0A limiter. The one big thing that some here have opined was the super pitch rate you get when the ceegee is far aft. We see that with the Stubby demo. We must remember that you can't get the awesome pitch rate without a lotta gee if you are going fast - you can rip the wings off !!!!

As a rule, you get higher instantaneous rates at slower speeds than sustained rates. Roscoe might jump in here, but John-Boy was there in the beginning and can contribute.

The yaw and roll authority demonstrated at Paris is truly eye-watering to this old Viper pilot. I saw one of the first no-holds-barred demos by the Raptor and could not believe what I saw back then. And remember that you never show "the other guy" all your stuff, heh heh.

Looks like Stubby can fight close, best I can tell.

Gums sends...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 04:19
by smsgtmac
I enjoyed this practice run far more than the demo proper:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeqryYh_yw0
The sun suddenly lighting up the vortices as it enters the pedal turn is one of the most memorable things I've seen.
The number of revolutions doesn't really matter so much as the ability to effortlessly enter and exit at will.


The 'practice' at Paris were really the 'validation' flights. The show routine they practiced here in Ft Worth and flew last week was bounded by altitude, airspace and time restrictions to comply with the air show rules. Flynn (I think) mentioned that in a video someplace on Monday. IMHO that forced, among other things, the zoom to pedal turn to be a little lower and not as many degrees for the nose pointing in descent as was done during practice.

I wanted to see the Rafale's show routine, but haven't seen it yet. I've only seen this year's validation flight. I'd be interested to see how it's performance was affected by the restrictions in comparison, since it relied on having a lot more smash to do its best moves. Gorgeous plane.

The funniest response I've seen have come from commenters in places who "think" they remember the BAC Lightning, the F-15, the Sukhoi doing that climb at takeoff. I don't think any of them did it with an 11 second takeoff roll and climbing immediately before their gear was up on pure power. Yeah, and I remember being better looking back then too. :o

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 05:50
by blindpilot
smsgtmac wrote:
.....

The funniest response I've seen have come from commenters in places who "think" they remember the BAC Lightning, the F-15, the Sukhoi doing that climb at takeoff. I don't think any of them did it with an 11 second takeoff roll and climbing immediately before their gear was up on pure power. Yeah, and I remember being better looking back then too. :o


Yeah and I remember ... I think.... doing an "almost Immelmann," tight Chandelle trying to avoid the thunderstorm at the end of the runway, getting out of Macon GA in a T-38, too. I was impressed ... but .. hey it gets more impressive as the years go by ... and by ... and by ... I'm pretty sure I matched that F-35 takeoff well over 40 years ago! ... :D :o :P

AND did I tell you about the 4 foot large mouth bass I caught in a South Carolina pond .. when I was 4 years old? !!!!

Flynn done good! Very impressive..

BP

PS on that Macon takeoff, my little puppy feet hanging under the plane, was running very very fast before I pulled up to turn, ... was probably more than 11 secs ... those poor old arthritic things reminded me of that after I posted.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 06:05
by geforcerfx


Rafale demo, lots of vertical, you can tell they didn't get a lot of space to do much, the other rafale displays I have seen where they can stretch a bit have more energy to them. This one looked like a rollercoaster, up and down and lots of rolling.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 06:26
by popcorn
A much longer routine... practice or actual demo?
Right fro the takeoff you could see the Rafale retracting it's landing gear and taking several seconds to pick up steam before going vertical. Markedly different from the F-35.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 09:00
by gideonic
popcorn wrote:A much longer routine... practice or actual demo?
Right fro the takeoff you could see the Rafale retracting it's landing gear and taking several seconds to pick up steam before going vertical. Markedly different from the F-35.

IMO F-35A acceleration is the best at those altitudes, bar-none. Raptor can do quite a few impressive things during takeoff, due to its thrust-vectoring, but it needs a lot more time to pick up speed.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 09:15
by hornetfinn
smsgtmac wrote:The funniest response I've seen have come from commenters in places who "think" they remember the BAC Lightning, the F-15, the Sukhoi doing that climb at takeoff. I don't think any of them did it with an 11 second takeoff roll and climbing immediately before their gear was up on pure power. Yeah, and I remember being better looking back then too. :o


LOL, I've found those too. Nobody ever bothers to mention that most of those other fighters have to accelerate like half a minute before going to vertical and are completely slick. It's like saying that Tesla Model S acceleration is nothing special since it can go from 0 to 100 km/h in well under 3 seconds. So what, my Kia can go from 0 to 100 km/h easily... in like 12 seconds... with good tailwind.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 10:43
by spazsinbad
AvWeak PodCaste: http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show- ... s-air-show

F-35 bit goes from about 11min20sec to 17min or so. OTHERWISE B O R I N G.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 11:13
by gideonic
spazsinbad wrote:AvWeak PodCaste: http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show- ... s-air-show

F-35 bit goes from about 11min20sec to 17min or so. OTHERWISE B O R I N G.


Thanks, IMO the dibits about the UK and France joint FCAS (Future Combat Air System) UCAV project between 10:25 - 11:20 seemed interesting as well. It it will have a french engine, as was speculated here previously :bang:, but at least different optronics, EW systems and radar depending on the nation.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 12:52
by hornetfinn
smsgtmac wrote:I wanted to see the Rafale's show routine, but haven't seen it yet. I've only seen this year's validation flight. I'd be interested to see how it's performance was affected by the restrictions in comparison, since it relied on having a lot more smash to do its best moves. Gorgeous plane.


I have to agree, Rafale is very gorgeous plane, definitely one of my favourite jets to look at. Must be all those curves... :wink:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 13:20
by sferrin
smsgtmac wrote:The funniest response I've seen have come from commenters in places who "think" they remember the BAC Lightning, the F-15, the Sukhoi doing that climb at takeoff. I don't think any of them did it with an 11 second takeoff roll and climbing immediately before their gear was up on pure power. Yeah, and I remember being better looking back then too. :o


I have one of an F-15 doing a roughly 6 second roll straight into a climb. Will post it when I get home. (Tried finding on youtube with no luck. It's ancient.)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 17:45
by geforcerfx
I actually hated the takeoff for the F-35 routine, I prefer the takeoff they do for the heritage flight (video is posted like 6 pages back) where they retract and maintain mil till around 2 seconds before going vertical then pull vertical hard.

edit reposted video since it was 9 pages back

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 18:32
by smsgtmac
geforcerfx wrote:I actually hated the takeoff for the F-35 routine, I prefer the takeoff they do for the heritage flight (video is posted like 6 pages back) where they retract and maintain mil till around 2 seconds before going vertical then pull vertical hard.

I like both. The way it was done in Paris is how few fighters could do it. Very SU-35ish at an operational weight. The heritage profile has the disadvantage of busting out of the Paris Air Show airspace before the "oooohs and aaaaahs' factor takes hold and by the time the F-35 comes back into view, the 6-8 minutes allowed are up. :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 18:44
by spazsinbad
Guess where: http://www.ainonline.com/sites/default/ ... 35_web.jpg
"The fifth-generation F-35A Lightning II stealth fighter at the 2017 Paris Air Show. (Photo: David McIntosh)"

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 19:04
by SpudmanWP
USAF's Cecil on What Differentiates the F-35A from the F-16


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 19:25
by citanon
spazsinbad wrote:Guess where: http://www.ainonline.com/sites/default/ ... 35_web.jpg
"The fifth-generation F-35A Lightning II stealth fighter at the 2017 Paris Air Show. (Photo: David McIntosh)"


OK I'm just gonna come out and say what I think because you can see it directly in this photo and the Chinese seem to be trying to copy it in the J-31:

Because of the way the rear control surfaces are positioned, the jet exhaust is sucking air stream directly over the rear horizontal stabs. So even though it doesn't have thrust vectoring, the control surfaces are getting help from the engine thrust at low speeds.

Not 100% sure I'm right, but if that's what they are doing it's genius.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 19:56
by swiss
SpudmanWP wrote:USAF's Cecil on What Differentiates the F-35A from the F-16



Thx a lot for this Video Spudman. Very intersting. Also nice to see, that Cecil confirm many things that was told here on F-16.net. :D Some guys here have an amazing knowledge.

BTW. I Think this is a very good display from the Rafale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsVAO_U78Qg&t=335s

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 20:01
by sferrin
citanon wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Guess where: http://www.ainonline.com/sites/default/ ... 35_web.jpg
"The fifth-generation F-35A Lightning II stealth fighter at the 2017 Paris Air Show. (Photo: David McIntosh)"


OK I'm just gonna come out and say what I think because you can see it directly in this photo and the Chinese seem to be trying to copy it in the J-31:

Because of the way the rear control surfaces are positioned, the jet exhaust is sucking air stream directly over the rear horizontal stabs. So even though it doesn't have thrust vectoring, the control surfaces are getting help from the engine thrust at low speeds.

Not 100% sure I'm right, but if that's what they are doing it's genius.


It would be interesting to know how much of an ejector effect is going on there.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 21:34
by castlebravo
citanon wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Guess where: http://www.ainonline.com/sites/default/ ... 35_web.jpg
"The fifth-generation F-35A Lightning II stealth fighter at the 2017 Paris Air Show. (Photo: David McIntosh)"


OK I'm just gonna come out and say what I think because you can see it directly in this photo and the Chinese seem to be trying to copy it in the J-31:

Because of the way the rear control surfaces are positioned, the jet exhaust is sucking air stream directly over the rear horizontal stabs. So even though it doesn't have thrust vectoring, the control surfaces are getting help from the engine thrust at low speeds.

Not 100% sure I'm right, but if that's what they are doing it's genius.


Image

Your theory also jives with the problems they had keeping the stabilators from melting due to exhaust heat.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 21:53
by zero-one
Just noticed something.

before the roll out of 3i when the Maneuverability of the F-35 was largely just on paper, the narrative was almost always
-this jet will shoot down targets way before the merge
-the F-35's stealth and sensors will allow it to take out targets from long ranges, the days of dog fighting are over
etc etc.


But now with 3i, having about 80% of the F-35's flight envelope open, the narrative has shifted quite a bit to
-We have stealth, advanced sensors and sensor fusion all packaged into a 9G and high Alpha capable jet
-The F-35 utilizes advanced sensors and stealth along with incredible aerodynamic performance

etc. etc. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 22:33
by count_to_10
sferrin wrote:
citanon wrote:
OK I'm just gonna come out and say what I think because you can see it directly in this photo and the Chinese seem to be trying to copy it in the J-31:

Because of the way the rear control surfaces are positioned, the jet exhaust is sucking air stream directly over the rear horizontal stabs. So even though it doesn't have thrust vectoring, the control surfaces are getting help from the engine thrust at low speeds.

Not 100% sure I'm right, but if that's what they are doing it's genius.


It would be interesting to know how much of an ejector effect is going on there.

Flow entrainment. That might actually work. Assuming that the fan air is coming out in the gap between the nozzle and outer air shell, there would also be that.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 23:46
by sferrin
smsgtmac wrote:The funniest response I've seen have come from commenters in places who "think" they remember the BAC Lightning, the F-15, the Sukhoi doing that climb at takeoff. I don't think any of them did it with an 11 second takeoff roll and climbing immediately before their gear was up on pure power. Yeah, and I remember being better looking back then too. :o


I have one of an F-15 doing a roughly 6 second roll straight into a climb. Will post it when I get home. (Tried finding on youtube with no luck. It's ancient.)



Here it is. It even does the thing where it powers out of a slow pass into a climb. Boeing used to have a clip on their site of the F-15K's first flight. Lift off and climb out was similar.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 23:48
by brillo
So does this demo now put to rest concerns about air to air and not enough f-22's? Seems to me the f-35 more than fills the shoes of highly capable air to air fighter in all conditions.

I wouldn't want to be caught on the business end of one of these planes in a knife fight.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 03:02
by smsgtmac
sferrin wrote:
smsgtmac wrote:The funniest response I've seen have come from commenters in places who "think" they remember the BAC Lightning, the F-15, the Sukhoi doing that climb at takeoff. I don't think any of them did it with an 11 second takeoff roll and climbing immediately before their gear was up on pure power. Yeah, and I remember being better looking back then too. :o


I have one of an F-15 doing a roughly 6 second roll straight into a climb. Will post it when I get home. (Tried finding on youtube with no luck. It's ancient.)

Here it is. It even does the thing where it powers out of a slow pass into a climb. Boeing used to have a clip on their site of the F-15K's first flight. Lift off and climb out was similar.


Love it. Looks to be about 9 secs to me from brake release to weight off the main gear. Any idea what year this was? What would be interesting would be to see a synchronized brakes-off video of this with the F-35 at Paris side-by-side until the first one maneuvers away from the climb. There are different nuances to each jet and jockey's techniques to get from A to B. If anything it would be a good 'F-35 climbs like an F-15' counterpoint sometime.

Edit (add): From looking at the F-35 (2nd?) Paris practice and vid and the sound in the F-15 video, I'd say it looks like both jets start out at mil power until brakes are off so the side-by-side would be even more representative.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 03:07
by jetblast16
I remember that video sferrin. Watched it several times. The Strike Eagle, shedding some pounds (tanks, CFTs, bombs), is a very capable interceptor / dog fighter.

~5 seconds to 100 knots from brake release (about 843 feet travelled)

~7 seconds from brake release to weight off wheels and climbing.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 03:25
by smsgtmac
jetblast16 wrote:~7 seconds from brake release to weight off wheels and climbing.

Rounding differences :wink:
My feed shows no movement of F-15 at 3 secs, by 4 secs the nose is rising and at 12 secs the last wheel is off the ground but looked still on at 11. Tough to time small intervals on a interlaced video feed with very much accuracy

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 03:55
by spazsinbad
Gotta luv short takeoffs. I did one and one only in an A4G. Did not hear of anyone else trying one ever otherwise. Not often did we have clean wing A4Gs, in my day 300 gal/2,000 lb fuel pair of D/Ts full/empty were de rigeur. So there I was at Canberra Airport/RAAF Fairbairn having shown the A4G (with an S2E with ground crew) to a bunch of Federal Parliamentarians in a static display with the DefMin asking me - a lowly Acting Sub-Lieutenant ASLT - about the Skyhawk. A newly arrived Macchi MB326H tagged along also so it was the early 1970s. So anyway the A4G had about half fuel but otherwise clean - enough to get me back to NAS Nowra toot sweet. Decided that a short takeoff was appropriate (never flown one before but good description in NATOPS procedures). Never did one again. The S2E pilot watched me 'go vertical' straight after lift off as I was FRANTICALLY pushing the stick forward getting the wheels/flaps up and getting the huge horizontal stabilizer trim back towards neutral from FULL UP. OMG it was a monster unleashed at that lightweight. :doh:

The few seconds it took for the electric trim to get the trim down was a LONG TIME. The only other time I had to wait for that SLOW nose down trim from FULL UP was in a bucking bronco spiral dive (described earlier on this forum). In these situations the seconds go by S L O W L Y. :devil: Meanwhile I needed two hands to push the stick forward to stop from 'looping' after that short takeoff. :mrgreen: Otherwise it was an eventful day - for other reasons - long story. :roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 12:56
by spazsinbad
Another explanation of the Flynn PAS 2017 maneuvers that some may quibble about otherwise not much we don't know....
F-35 Unleashed: Paris Flight Demo Displays Warfighting Potential
23 Jun 2017 Lara Seligman

"...The F-35 is not as agile as the twin-engine, thrust-vectoring F-22 Raptor, which is designed for air-to-air combat. But pilots say when the F-35 is flown in the way it is designed to be flown, it is a formidable dogfighter—far more so than its predecessor, the F-16, or any other fourth-generation fighter....

...“People are seeing the airplane do things nobody thought it could do,” says U.S. Marine Corps Lt. Col. (ret.) David Berke, who has flown the F-35B, Raptor, F-16 and F/A-18 Hornet. “It proves that when the airplane is flown in the way it’s supposed to be flown, it is a dominating within-visual-range platform.”

All this can be done by an aircraft that was actually designed for the air-to-ground mission. As former Air Combat Command chief Gen. Herbert Carlisle liked to say: “The F-35 is the best air-to-air platform in the world, except for the F-22. The F-22 is the best air-to-ground platform in the world, except for the F-35.”...

...Of course, the F-35 is never supposed to get into a dogfight in the first place. The fighter’s combination of stealth, sophisticated radar and sensors, and suite of advanced weapons such as the AIM-9X air-to-air missile are designed to find and fix the target before the enemy even knows the F-35 is there.

But it is in the multidomain battlefield of the future that the F-35 will truly prove its mettle, say pilots.

“Before, where we would have one advanced threat and we would put everything we had—F-16s, F-15s, F-18s, missiles—we would shoot everything we had at that one threat, just to take it out. Now [with the F-35] we are seeing three or four of those threats at a time,” says Lt. Col. George Watkins, commander of the Air Force’s first operational F-35 squadron.

“Just between [the F-35] and the [F-22] Raptor, we are able to geolocate [threats], precision-target them, and then we are able to bring the fourth-generation assets in behind us after those threats are neutralized,” Watkins says. “It’s a whole different world out there for us now.”"

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35-un ... -potential

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 13:40
by sferrin
smsgtmac wrote:Love it. Looks to be about 9 secs to me from brake release to weight off the main gear. Any idea what year this was?


File date is 2003, so it's around there.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 15:19
by f-16adf
My brother's squadron mate flew them at SJ; he said that a clean SE (w/-229's) was an animal. Great video-


Thank you for posting this.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 02:05
by jetblast16

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 19:59
by ricnunes
Thanks for the video jetblast16.

Actually that video shows the only thing that currently puzzles me a bit (although I have an opinion) about the F-35's specs and this case in particular case about the F-35's top/max speed of Mach 1.6

This was probably discussed before here at f-16.net, although I can't seem to find any relevant info on this regard (which is likely due to a lack of search skills on my part) but we can see on the video posted by jetblast16 or more precisely at around minute 0:02-0:05 (at the very beginning) that the F-35's top/max speed of Mach 1.6 and/or 1930km/h.

Well that top speed of 1930km/h at altitudes of 40,000ft or higher is actually Mach 1.8+ and not Mach 1.6.
For example the F/A-18 Hornet and Super Hornet have a top speed of 1915 km/h which is slightly lower than the F-35 and Mach 1.8+ which is higher than the F-35 and this obviously doesn't make much sense.

Above I said I had an opinion about the subject and my opinion seems to be the following:
- The F-35 true max speed in Mach at high altitudes of 40,000ft or above is actually Mach 1.8 (and not Mach 1.6).
- However by doing some calculations and searching a bit for information about Mach vs Speed (I assume CAS?) it seems to me that the only way for any aircraft to achieve Mach 1.6 AND 1930km/h is when flying at 10,000ft or even lower. Perhaps this was the only condition where the F-35 was tested regarding maximum speed?

So what's your take on this? Does anyone have an extra info, specially in the case if my "theory" is wrong?
Thanks in advance.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 20:26
by spazsinbad
This is a definitive current 12 May 2017 'fast facts' for the F-35 from LM: (NOT from A Non-Kosher LM Video)

https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a6 ... _2017_.pdf (0.4Mb)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 20:37
by basher54321
ricnunes wrote:Well that top speed of 1930km/h at altitudes of 40,000ft or higher is actually Mach 1.8+ and not Mach 1.6.
For example the F/A-18 Hornet and Super Hornet have a top speed of 1915 km/h which is slightly lower than the F-35 and Mach 1.8+ which is higher than the F-35 and this obviously doesn't make much sense.



Typically the given top speed is the top speed - and usually refers to a clean jet in level flight, full AB, at standard US temperatures at a specific altitude.

The altitude is not specified publically (as far as I know) however if for example the top speed is at 37,000 ft, the top speed could start to fall by 40,000ft - it might not but typically that is what you often see on the charts.

If the temperature drops 20 degrees at the optimum altitude it might go faster - assuming the enforced limit (whatever that is) still lets it.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 20:41
by doge
24 June -F-35 flight

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 21:15
by lbk000
Ugh, cameraman zoomed out way too far for that pedal turn.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 21:28
by ricnunes
spazsinbad wrote:This is a definitive current 12 May 2017 'fast facts' for the F-35 from LM: (NOT from A Non-Kosher LM Video)

https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a6 ... _2017_.pdf (0.4Mb)


The max speed from the video basically matches the top speed of the "12 May 2017 'fast facts' for the F-35 from LM" that you posted:

1200 mph = 1931.21 km/h or approximately 1930 km/h (which is what the video shows)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 21:41
by ricnunes
basher54321 wrote:Typically the given top speed is the top speed - and usually refers to a clean jet in level flight, full AB, at standard US temperatures at a specific altitude.

The altitude is not specified publically (as far as I know) however if for example the top speed is at 37,000 ft, the top speed could start to fall by 40,000ft - it might not but typically that is what you often see on the charts.

If the temperature drops 20 degrees at the optimum altitude it might go faster - assuming the enforced limit (whatever that is) still lets it.


I don't know if I get your point/post but usually the higher the altitude, the less is the air density which means less drag and potentially higher max speed.
Of course there's the celling limit of the aircraft which in the case of the F-35 is quite above 40,000ft.

Anyway, in order for any aircraft to reach Mach 1.6 AND 1200 mph OR 1930 km/h the aircraft must be traveling at an altitude of 10,000ft or even lower. This can be seen in several charts.
And personally I doubt that a supersonic fighter aircraft like the F-35 can attain a higher speed at 10,000ft compared to what is able to reach at lets say 30,000ft-40,000ft.

I also remember that during the F-22 Raptor development phase its top speed was announced to be Mach 1.7 but when the aircraft entered in (full) service, the F-22 Raptor top speed became Mach 2.25 (or even higher). Will something similar to this happen with the F-35?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 22:02
by geforcerfx
ricnunes wrote:I don't know if I get your point/post but usually the higher the altitude, the less is the air density which means less drag and potentially higher max speed.
Of course there's the celling limit of the aircraft which in the case of the F-35 is quite above 40,000ft.

The higher up you go you lose more oxygen, so your trading less drag for less power. The top speed on the F-35 is prob the first top speed to be considered a "combat" top speed. The F-35 family can get to and maintain mach 1.4-1.6 with a large combat load (internal) a huge fuel load and all the targeting and EW/ECM you could ever use. This is not something the aircraft it's replacing/ competing against can do at all or well.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 22:13
by basher54321
ricnunes wrote:
I don't know if I get your point/post but usually the higher the altitude, the less is the air density which means less drag and potentially higher max speed.
Of course there's the celling limit of the aircraft which in the case of the F-35 is quite above 40,000ft.




Yes as geforcefx said, as you climb the engine is also losing power & putting out less thrust - this is offset to some degree by the massive fall in temperature as you climb - however when you go through the mid 30,000s (Tropopause) the temperature stabilises and that offset is also lost.
Typically a Jet engine can be producing half its sea level thrust for a given speed even by 18,000 ft. (Depending on XYZ of course)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 23:11
by spazsinbad
M 1.6 = 1,056 knots airspeed sea level: https://www.globalaircraft.org/converter.htm GAC Speed Converter

Some other discussion here: [interestingly at sea level 700 knots = M 1.06 via GAC Speed Converter above then at sea level again M 1.6 = 1,200 mph]

Is the F-35 limited to Mach 1.6 by software limit, or other?: viewtopic.php?t=21691

on page three of the thread above we have a quote from a defunct now URL from 'quicksilver' but repeated below:
Is the F-35 limited to Mach 1.6 by software limit, or other?
"...As a result of the success, the F-35 ITF has also gained momentum in delivering an envelope in 2014 to the program office to the design limit of 50 degrees AoA, along with the ability to pull 7gs throughout the envelope, and also ensuring that the jet can fly out to 700 knots and 1.6 mach...." http://www.edwards.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123330544


Source: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=21691&p=239900&hilit=knots#p239900

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 01:34
by jetblast16
ricnunes, it has been stated publicly several times and in various literature that the F-35 is capable of reaching Mach 1.6, with a full internal weapons load, which works out to ~5,200 LBS. In other words, an F-35A, carrying 2x 2,000 LB bombs, 2x radar guided missiles and a full magazine of cannon ammunition, along with a large internal fuel load and a host of sensors and electronic warfare equipment, can reach Mach 1.6 in level flight. Geforcefx has it.

Think about it... An F-35A is about a foot longer than an F-16C and has a wingspan that is about 2 feet wider...with lower vertical stabilizers. And yet, the jet is able to carry, completely internally, all the above previously mentioned, while maintaining a very low radar cross section. THAT is impressive.

The F135 that powers the jet is probably capable of producing between 20k-24k pounds of thrust "at altitude", in full afterburner. That is essentially the same power the original F-16A had in full afterburner at sea level. Is the jet able to go beyond Mach 1.6? Probably. By how much? Unknown. I would say it could reach Mach 1.8+, at least the A variant, with its lower overall drag. The Mach 1.6 number stems from early program requirements, really a type of baseline. Lockheed built a prototype and then finally a production aircraft capable of reaching this Mach baseline. How much time, money and testing went into validating the aircraft's actual maximum speed above Mach 1.6 is not known (I saw a Mach 1.61 number and maybe Mach 1.69).

If an F-35 is able to reach Mach 1.6 in level flight with 2x 2,000 LB bombs, then it is most certainly able to fly faster, with no internal ordinance from a reduction in trim drag. How much faster is probably not important...unless it is significantly faster, at which point, the air force is wise to keep its real top-end speed a secret from potential adversaries.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 01:38
by spazsinbad
'jetblast16' I note that we note we do not know the MACH altitudes or knots limit except that cited just above - 700 knots.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 01:43
by jetblast16
spazsinbad, I note your note that we noted we do not know the MACH altitudes or knots limit, except that cited just above - 700 knots. My reply was for ricnunes. I fully understand and have seen this discussed here before and on other sites.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 01:56
by jetblast16


Sorry, couldn't resist:)

(a brief example of some of the aircraft's speed potential)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 01:58
by spazsinbad
Sure & I did not imply otherwise but have reiterated the point for those who want to know details no one knows yet and probably will not know until the F-35 Flight Manual/NATOPS is released to the public - but hey we can discuss away eh.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 02:13
by quicksilver
In practical application, the limits are "whichever comes first" (700 or 1.6M).

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 02:30
by spazsinbad
Just being boring this is what a Skyhawk A-4E/F/G NATOPS Flight Manual Limits look like, in practice not easily reachable.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 02:54
by jetblast16
Billy Flynn F-35 Top Speed
http://coub.com/view/ci583

Got that lol?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 03:03
by SpudmanWP
Why did you stop the video right when he starts talking about "overspeeding the jet"?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 03:16
by neptune
SpudmanWP wrote:Why did you stop the video right when he starts talking about "overspeeding the jet"?


Billy Flynn F-35 Top Speed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_b6vCOLLz8

:)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 15:41
by doge
Today's

It was a Excellent work! Thank you for a good job Mr. Flynn!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 19:05
by ricnunes
First of all, thanks for the replies guys.
Specially what jetblast16 and geforcerfx have said makes sense indeed. It makes sense that the Mach 1.6 is probably a top speed limit for the F-35 equipped with a full (internal) weapons loadout of 2x2000lb bombs and 2xAMRAAMs and a lighter internal weapons loadout will likely grant the F-35 (specially the F-35A) a higher top speed. I agree with jetblast16 that the F-35's top speed could reach Mach 1.8+ (with lighter internal weapon loadout).

So for now I have only one question left which is about the only thing that I didn't get about this subject which is that 700 knots "speed limit". Where that value comes from and where it applies to?

For example 700knots is around 805mph which is much less than the F-35's 1200mph max speed reported by LM.
Moreover there's no way for an aircraft to reach Mach 1.6 AND 700knots (you can use the calculator posted by spazsinbad to check this out).
Also and as pointed out by spazsinbad, 700knots is at sea level roughly equivalent to Mach 1 (or Mach 1.06 to be more precise) while the same 700 knots is equivalent is to Mach 1.22 at altitudes of 40,000ft or higher.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 19:25
by jetblast16
Perhaps (assuming they are not suppressing information) they are telling us the truth about the plane's performance.

The aircraft was able to (can) reach the "design baseline speed in knots and Mach number", with a full internal weapons loadout. The top speed, however, is listed as 1,199 mph. At altitude (at or above 30,000 feet standard temperature) that is roughly equivalent to Mach 1.81 Perhaps this 1,199 mph top speed, is without internal weapons, max AB, at a certain altitude where air friction is low enough and temperature is cold enough for the engine to push the plane to this speed in straight and level flight.

As a note, Mach 1.6 at 38,000 feet, is approximately 1,055 mph. So, an F-35A, a standard production model, with an "average" pilot, carrying ~5,200 LBS of internal weaponry, is capable (briefly) of sustaining 1,055-1,084 mph, in level flight.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 19:45
by basher54321
Okay next thing chaps - check the units of speed you are using

The 700 knot speed limit is almost certainly Indicated Airspeed (IAS) vastly different to True Airspeed (TAS) at altitude - or well there are others.

So for example at 30,000 ft MSL std atmosphere M1.6 is ~682 KIAS or ~942 KTAS

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 20:00
by quicksilver
basher54321 wrote:Okay next thing chaps - check the units of speed you are using

The 700 knot speed limit is almost certainly Indicated Airspeed (IAS) vastly different to True Airspeed (TAS) at altitude - or well there are others.

So for example at 30,000 ft MSL std atmosphere M1.6 is ~682 KIAS or ~942 KTAS



This.

IIRC, for F-35 it's 700KCAS.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 21:57
by blindpilot
quicksilver wrote:This.

IIRC, for F-35 it's 700KCAS.


For purposes of this blog/discussion, there is no difference between IAS and CAS (adjusted for installation/position etc.)

So yes 940 kts or so at 30,000 feet is a reasonable number. However actual TAS at standard atmosphere numbers (altimeter set to 29.92, at -44 Deg C) could be higher than that. Add/subtract tail/head winds for Ground speeds.

At any rate the quoted speed 700 kts should not be confused for 700 mph true speed. Mach 1.6 is usually over 1,000 mph at higher altitudes. Pilots prefer Indicated/Calibrated because that's the number that matters. That's where you look to see where your aircraft is going to break/fall from the sky, important stuff like that. (although I read somewhere best rate of climb can be TAS related) Navigators care about Ground Speed. TAS is just for teenage drag strip airplane fans, and for navigators to divine wind patterns and weather prediction... most of which is replaced/derived with Satellite data/GPS/INS these days. Navigators look at these to determine actual atmospheric conditions. Pilots just don't want to stall or break a wing off.(thus CAS).

Interesting fact about the U-2. The CAS (actually EAS but that's another story) speeds at operating altitudes for stalling and wings tearing off were .... very ... very ... close. You didn't speed up or slow down recklessly. I suspect that cross over point is the actual altitude limitation for the U-2, which would vary for different atmospheric conditions.. what little atmosphere is at those altitudes.

IIRC.
BP

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 22:15
by ricnunes
basher54321 wrote:Okay next thing chaps - check the units of speed you are using

The 700 knot speed limit is almost certainly Indicated Airspeed (IAS) vastly different to True Airspeed (TAS) at altitude - or well there are others.

So for example at 30,000 ft MSL std atmosphere M1.6 is ~682 KIAS or ~942 KTAS


Thanks for the heads up basher!

Well, I believe that what you said is perhaps another indication that the max speed of the F-35 (assuming F-35A) in a clear or perhaps lightly armed (like for example 2 or 4 internal AMRAAMs only) is actually higher than Mach 1.6
For example the max airspeed published by LM for the F-35 of 1200 mph and assuming that this speed is TAS this means that the max speed of the F-35 is around 1041 KTAS which is quite higher than 942 KTAS.
Well using this calculator:
http://www.hochwarth.com/misc/AviationCalculator.html

1041 KTAS at 30,000 ft MSL is more than Mach 1.76

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 22:23
by citanon
blindpilot wrote:
quicksilver wrote:This.

IIRC, for F-35 it's 700KCAS.


For purposes of this blog/discussion, there is no difference between IAS and CAS (adjusted for installation/position etc.)

So yes 940 kts or so at 30,000 feet is a reasonable number. However actual TAS at standard atmosphere numbers (altimeter set to 29.92, at -44 Deg C) could be higher than that. Add/subtract tail/head winds for Ground speeds.

At any rate the quoted speed 700 kts should not be confused for 700 mph true speed. Mach 1.6 is usually over 1,000 mph at higher altitudes. Pilots prefer Indicated/Calibrated because that's the number that matters. That's where you look to see where your aircraft is going to break/fall from the sky, important stuff like that. (although I read somewhere best rate of climb can be TAS related) Navigators care about Ground Speed. TAS is just for teenage drag strip airplane fans, and for navigators to divine wind patterns and weather prediction... most of which is replaced/derived with Satellite data/GPS/INS these days. Navigators look at these to determine actual atmospheric conditions. Pilots just don't want to stall or break a wing off.(thus CAS).

Interesting fact about the U-2. The CAS (actually EAS but that's another story) speeds at operating altitudes for stalling and wings tearing off were .... very ... very ... close. You didn't speed up or slow down recklessly. I suspect that cross over point is the actual altitude limitation for the U-2, which would vary for different atmospheric conditions.. what little atmosphere is at those altitudes.

IIRC.
BP


Incredible.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 23:03
by blindpilot
citanon wrote:
blindpilot wrote:
....
Interesting fact about the U-2. The CAS (actually EAS but that's another story) speeds at operating altitudes ...
IIRC.
BP


Incredible.


Other factors that folks miss. Unless you have glider sized narrow wings, most aircraft, especially fighters don't actually reach structural limits per se (ie. wings tearing off). The max speeds are aerodynamic performance specs requested by the customer. With its monster engine the F-35 could easily go faster than M 1.6, if the customer had wanted that. Lockheed made design compromises around the spec, "If all you need is 1.6, then I can tweek and improve low speed high AoA here, and give you faster transonic acceleration there ... and more fuel if I stretch a bit ... and etc. " Once Lockheed did that - the aerodynamic performance above 1.6 would be less than optimum, dangerous CG changes, outrageous fuel guzzling fighting new drag might appear, actual air flows could be bad for efficient performance ...

BUT the customer DIDN'T WANT IT ...
So who cares what flying problems start to surface at M1.7? Therefore don't expect the F-35 to have a secret Mach 3 option. M1.6 is a customer requested spec, not a limit for a F-135 powered single engine fighter. LM Test pilots will no doubt check out what happens as you go faster than M1.6. And the aircraft can almost certainly do that, so they can document what will happen if some idiot finds, that he needs to try to pull away from a tail chaser at Mach 2. Then they can make a note. "Going faster than M1.6X (or 1.8 or whatever) may cause your aircraft to start to porpoise uncontrollably" or whatever it is they find. That is not a design flaw. It is a design to spec result, that yielded some important benefits, more range, pedal turns etc. If you want Mach 3, just tell them. It's not like LM doesn't know how to go Mach 3.

Sometimes I think we are stuck in the era of 60's muscle cars. "I wonder how fast this baby can go if I put the pedal to the metal?" Aerodynamics doesn't work that way ... and as some of us found out, sometimes neither does Dad's '55 Chevy.

FWIW,
BP

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 23:03
by gta4
Some people are suspecting F-35 already has thrust vector, given its freaking mongo flip

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 23:09
by kimjongnumbaun
It's the size of those elevators and the high AoA ability LM has always raved about.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 23:43
by jetblast16
Thanks dog-e for that post.

It was a Excellent work! Thank you for a good job Mr. Flynn!


That display was flown utterly crisp. I love how the jet immediately pitch suspends (stops at a certain pitch angle, smoothly but abruptly). He flew a very sharp display.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 23:48
by jetblast16
kimjongnumbaun wrote:It's the size of those elevators and the high AoA ability LM has always raved about.


LM could be running the CG pretty far aft with this jet. If they are, then this can explain some of the aircraft's exceptional maneuverability, particularly in pitch rates and instantaneous turn rate. Of course, there is the power of that engine and a possible sculpted low pressure section flowing over the fuselage top in certain maneuvers / regimes. If that energized air hits those horizontals, with a fairly tail heavy configuration, the jet will flip.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 23:49
by quicksilver
blindpilot wrote:...Pilots prefer Indicated/Calibrated because that's the number that matters. That's where you look to see where your aircraft is going to break/fall from the sky, important stuff like that...Navigators care about Ground Speed. TAS is just for teenage drag strip airplane fans, and for navigators to divine wind patterns and weather prediction... most of which is replaced/derived with Satellite data/GPS/INS these days. Navigators look at these to determine actual atmospheric conditions. Pilots just don't want to stall or break a wing off.(thus CAS).


Single seat fighter guys are navigators and mission planners too; they care about many different kinds of airspeed, including TAS. But then again, most single seat guys are not so far removed from "teenage drag strip airplane fans" either.

8)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 00:06
by lbk000
The mach limit is a function of the diverterless supersonic inlet design, it's got little to do with what your engine could theoretically push you to. With a VG inlet design it may be possible for the F-35 to easily be a M2+ aircraft, but with the DSI inlet you're going to just hit a point where the shock bulges stop working and you lose output in the back, leaving you mired at M1.6.

A more relevant question is how easily can the F-35 reach that limit? Most aircraft are only ever capable of reaching their design speed limit by the time they are combat ineffective -- clean, with barely any fuel left.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 00:32
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Think of it this way, the big wing C can hit 1.6. The reduced thrust B can hit 1.6. This alone implies the A can do it with relative ease. Look at the acceleration spec difference between the A and the C. Most of that is from the extra drag. If the C can even just kiss 1.6 the A can hit it with Ps to spare.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 01:24
by spazsinbad
I'll repeat the A-4E/F/G maximum speed limit graph from NATOPS from previous page with this note. An A4G pilot would say that the maximum airspeed is "600 knots and MACH 1.1" - how does that jibe with the graph? In a similar way (whilst I do not claim to know in this instance - no graph) what does the F-35 maximum airspeed mean "700 knots & MACH 1.6"?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 02:10
by lbk000
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Think of it this way, the big wing C can hit 1.6. The reduced thrust B can hit 1.6. This alone implies the A can do it with relative ease. Look at the acceleration spec difference between the A and the C. Most of that is from the extra drag. If the C can even just kiss 1.6 the A can hit it with Ps to spare.

Yeah, since the F-35's designed to be able to supersonic sprint without blowers, this means the F-35's useable speed range is actually much higher than 4thgens, despite the nominally lower upper end cap, which is largely useless.
I'd be curious if C would actually have better high altitude acceleration than the A, as the larger wing would require less AoA. The A would be the indisputable king of low altitudes of course.

spazsinbad wrote:I'll repeat the A-4E/F/G maximum speed limit graph from NATOPS from previous page with this note. An A4G pilot would say that the maximum airspeed is "600 knots and MACH 1.1" - how does that jibe with the graph? In a similar way (whilst I do not claim to know in this instance - no graph) what does the F-35 maximum airspeed mean "700 knots & MACH 1.6"?

Good graph that is worth a repost, but I don't think scottsmn was trying to imply that the F-35A would be expected to exceed M1.6 on its own power.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 04:45
by doge
From Dayton Airshow

3:00, It looks like very curved...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 05:35
by geforcerfx
He did another aggressive "tactical pitch", haven't had a good one since Chino show. Really shows off the instantaneous turn of the jet.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 17:32
by zerion
F-35 makes historic appearance at Paris Air Show
By Tech. Sgt. Ryan Crane, U.S. Air Forces in Europe and Air Forces Africa Public Affairs / Published June 26, 2017

LE BOURGET, France -- The U.S. made history when two F-35A Lightning IIs arrived at the Paris Air Show to fly the first public aerial demonstrations here, this week.

Pulling off a historic event such as this takes months of careful planning and preparation. This team had only 36 days to make it happen.

Building the team

Needless to say, this was not an easy road for the U.S. Air Forces in Europe air boss, Col. Justin Hickman. He set out to build a team that he could empower to solve problems and accomplish this daunting task.

“You have two Air Combat Command (F-35A) jets being maintained by 39 ACC Airmen, flown here from the U.S. by two Air Education and Training Command pilots and we are using a Lockheed Martin demonstration pilot to perform in the show,” said Hickman.

And he still had to plan the logistics for getting the other eight aircraft here. Aside from the F-35s, the Air Force brought two F-16 Fighting Falcons, a C-130J Super Hercules, a CV-22 Osprey and a KC-135R Stratotanker. The Army brought an AH-64 Apache and a CH-47 Chinook. The Navy flew in a P-8 Poseidon reconnaissance aircraft...

Through dozens of telephone conferences, three separate trips to Paris and hundreds of emails, the 130-person team came together to put on a show that wowed more than 350,000 people over the week-long event. 

Labor of love

Just over a month after the U.S. announced the F-35 would attend the show, the gates to Le Bourget Airport opened up and the crowds came flooding in. 

With more than 100 aircraft on display and 2,300 different exhibitors at the show, the Department of Defense aircraft corral was just a drop in the bucket of what the show offered. Despite that fact, the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen drew some of the largest crowds as people clamored to get a peek at the U.S. technology on display.

The importance of this milestone was not lost on the colonel.

“I am an aviation history kinda geek,” he said. “Right out there,” he gestured, “in front of our aircraft, is a plaque commemorating where Charles Lindbergh landed. It’s written in French, and it says, Charles Lindbergh, after crossing the Atlantic for the first time, landed here May 21, 1927. And right here at the Paris Air Show, 90 years later, we have F-35s, F-16s, helicopters, tactical airlift and maritime surveillance aircraft, right where Lindbergh landed. This is historic.”

With the U.S. involved in numerous conflicts and facing manning and equipment shortages, many critics take issue with the DOD’s participation in air shows and trade shows.

“A lot of people tell me, you are taking pilots, aircrew, Soldiers and Sailors, away from their training for over two weeks while they do this. And I say ‘yes, yes we are’. That is two weeks they are missing but the strategic seeds you plant today are going to pay off in 20 years, because these people are going to remember the Americans they met at the Paris Air Show.”

Hickman admitted the past few months have been stressful, but he knows it was all worth it.

“When we’re veterans sitting in the old folks home, we’re not going to sit around and talk about all the paperwork and long hours required to make this happen, we are going to talk about Le Bourget and being a part of the world’s largest airshow,” he said.

Lightning brings the show to a standstill

In the late afternoon, the F-35 boomed down the runway, stopping the crowd in their tracks as they scanned the sky for the source of the sound. 

For the next six minutes, Le Bourget was still and all eyes were on the fifth generation fighter cutting through the skies over Paris.

Once the display concluded, the crowed erupted with thunderous applause. Mission accomplished. 

What the audience didn’t see were the 39 maintainers it took to bring those jets to Paris and put them up in the sky nearly every day for two weeks, and a team of security forces to protect it.

Fielding a new aircraft can be challenging under perfect conditions, and the conditions in Paris were anything but perfect.

“We had to do some things that made us uncomfortable,” said Hickman. 

The team had to strike the perfect balance between making the jet viewable by the air show attendees and safeguarding the multi-million dollar asset. The solution came in the form of the iron clad relationship the U.S. has with France.

“We asked for some help from the French to protect our aircraft while we moved it back and forth from the corral to the demo,” Hickman explained. “They gave us a hangar which provided security overnight. And when we moved it, they gave us a mobile rope team who helped us maintain a safe buffer between the F-35 and the crowd.”

The French also provided armed security that augmented the unarmed U.S. personnel assigned to protect the aircraft. 

“It was truly a combined effort as we worked with our French allies to display the F-35,” Hickman said.

The week-long event wrapped up Sunday evening. As the announcers informed everyone to make their way to the exits, crowds still gathered around the U.S. corral to get one last look at the American airpower on display at the Paris Air Show. 

http://www.nellis.af.mil/News/Article/1 ... -air-show/


Pics at link

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 18:53
by geforcerfx

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 20:23
by halloweene
geforcerfx wrote:
ricnunes wrote:I don't know if I get your point/post but usually the higher the altitude, the less is the air density which means less drag and potentially higher max speed.
Of course there's the celling limit of the aircraft which in the case of the F-35 is quite above 40,000ft.

The higher up you go you lose more oxygen, so your trading less drag for less power. The top speed on the F-35 is prob the first top speed to be considered a "combat" top speed. The F-35 family can get to and maintain mach 1.4-1.6 with a large combat load (internal) a huge fuel load and all the targeting and EW/ECM you could ever use. This is not something the aircraft it's replacing/ competing against can do at all or well.


Sorry i have to disagree. First a large combat load will weight and you'll need lift to compensate(AoA at same speed). Second, it was recently shown by a journo embedded in a "test/transfer) flight that a Rafale with 3x1250L tanks and 2 micas could fly mach 1.7. Should be een faster for a Ty)hoon

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 20:34
by vilters
Am I the only one to find it "strange" that the High AOA pass is flown at the beginning of the demo?

It is always best to fly the High AOA pass with less fuel on board
=> That's closer to the end of the display when most fuel is used and the AC has less weight.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 20:47
by lbk000
But that's what makes it all the more impressive, no?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 20:49
by vilters
And on a side note :
Are my eyes playing tricks with me? Or are both ailerons pointing UP during the high AOA pass?
It looks, or (tricks me into) LEF down, and ailerons UP?

That would create a horizontal "S" airfoil, adding to the stability. => Like most delta airfoils do.....

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 20:53
by garrya
halloweene wrote: Second, it was recently shown by a journo embedded in a "test/transfer) flight that a Rafale with 3x1250L tanks and 2 micas could fly mach 1.7. Should be een faster for a Ty)hoon

Can you link us the source?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 21:03
by Dragon029
vilters wrote:And on a side note :
Are my eyes playing tricks with me? Or are both ailerons pointing UP during the high AOA pass?
It looks, or (tricks me into) LEF down, and ailerons UP?

That would create a horizontal "S" airfoil, adding to the stability. => Like most delta airfoils do.....

Flaperons up also probably helps both reduce drag and also push the centre of pressure / centre of lift forward, helping keep that nose up and allowing the jet to sustain those speeds / angles at just military power.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 22:32
by vilters
Yes, it also reduces the load on the tailerons and you basically get "the delta" stabilizing effect.
Less drag, more speed retention too.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 23:15
by steve2267
geforcerfx wrote:


The turn beginning at 0:10... would this properly be described as a bat turn?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 23:50
by quicksilver
vilters wrote:And on a side note :
Are my eyes playing tricks with me? Or are both ailerons pointing UP during the high AOA pass?
It looks, or (tricks me into) LEF down, and ailerons UP?

That would create a horizontal "S" airfoil, adding to the stability. => Like most delta airfoils do.....


Your eyes are fine or, at least, no worse than mine. :salute: If you look closely at other parts of the demo, the same thing is in effect.

For me, the most conspicuous part of the high alpha pass was the relatively low power setting.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 00:58
by geforcerfx
steve2267 wrote:
The turn beginning at 0:10... would this properly be described as a bat turn?

They call it the "Tactical Pitch"

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 01:41
by steve2267
geforcerfx wrote:
steve2267 wrote:
The turn beginning at 0:10... would this properly be described as a bat turn?

They call it the "Tactical Pitch"


Hard to judge from the video - not knowing entry and exit headings etc - but the ITR seems to be somewhere between 22.5° and 30° per second, assuming a 90° heading change. I wonder what the entry and exit airspeeds are.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 02:50
by gta4
Remember a guy used a sped-up video to compare J-20 with F-35 two months ago?

Now I honestly think even the sped-up video of J-20 is no match of F-35.

Please eyeball the turn rate of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZilHmXU ... e=youtu.be
Image

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 08:18
by doge
There is another similar thing...It look like modestly fast...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 11:26
by ricnunes
halloweene wrote:...it was recently shown by a journo embedded in a "test/transfer) flight that a Rafale with 3x1250L tanks and 2 micas could fly mach 1.7. Should be een faster for a Ty)hoon


LoL! And you also still believe in Santa, right? :doh:

And by the way that "magical flight" of yours was a test or a transfer flight?? You have to decide since I don't think you can have it both ways even because if we all lived in your magical world where the Rafale could attain Mach 1.7 with 3 external fuel tanks and 2 Micas the fuel consumption would be so high that the Rafale wouldn't be able to "transfer" itself to many other places. Well, my 2 cents anyway...

P.S- A Super Hornet which attains Mach 1.8+ in a clean configuration, apparently can only attain Mach 1.57 with only 2 Sidewinders and 2 AMRAAMs (according to the Super Hornet NATOPS manual) and you're saying that a Rafale (which has a top speed of Mach 1.8 in a clean configuration) with 3x1250L tanks and 2 Micas can fly at Mach 1.7 - That stuff that you smoke is powerful! :roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 13:03
by sferrin
halloweene wrote:
geforcerfx wrote:
ricnunes wrote:I don't know if I get your point/post but usually the higher the altitude, the less is the air density which means less drag and potentially higher max speed.
Of course there's the celling limit of the aircraft which in the case of the F-35 is quite above 40,000ft.

The higher up you go you lose more oxygen, so your trading less drag for less power. The top speed on the F-35 is prob the first top speed to be considered a "combat" top speed. The F-35 family can get to and maintain mach 1.4-1.6 with a large combat load (internal) a huge fuel load and all the targeting and EW/ECM you could ever use. This is not something the aircraft it's replacing/ competing against can do at all or well.


Sorry i have to disagree. First a large combat load will weight and you'll need lift to compensate(AoA at same speed). Second, it was recently shown by a journo embedded in a "test/transfer) flight that a Rafale with 3x1250L tanks and 2 micas could fly mach 1.7. Should be een faster for a Ty)hoon



Let's see if I understand you correctly:

Aerodynamically clean F-35 going Mach 1.4-1.6: "Uh, no way"
Rafale with a shitload of draggy crap under it's wings: "Can go even faster."

:doh: :lmao:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 13:10
by krorvik
They all need lift to overcome the weight. Only one of them does not need to fight additional drag - and in addition, keeps stuff closer to CG.

The math isn't all that hard.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 15:38
by vilters
Yep, the F-35 flies like a delta.

During the high AOA pass and during all hard turns, the LEF are down and both ailerons are turned UPWARDS.

That's flying like a delta with extra tailerons to reduce surface loads and keep drag to a minimum....
Nice Job guys.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 16:59
by gta4
Well, F-35 is definitely a nice looper in the vertical. Maybe the aileron control is taking effect?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sf1H94FEME

PS: some people are arguing that Su-27 is too old for comparison. In fact even though you take the newest Su-35 and take a closer look to the maneuvers without thrust vectoring, Su-35 has no discernible difference with Su-27.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 17:01
by gta4
During hard turns, F-35 has ailerons and rear stabs as trim surfaces, providing less trim drag than tailless aircraft (carnard has significantly higher trim drag than rear stabs), and could benefit from rear stabs for more lift (unstable design. Rear stabs provides positive lift)

So I am pretty sure F-35 has a high L/D ratio in high alpha maneuvers. This means F-35 is less demanding to T/W ratio.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 17:31
by lbk000
gta4 wrote:Well, F-35 is definitely a nice looper in the vertical. Maybe the aileron control is taking effect?

No, I still think it's the lift distribution working with the slabs. The F-35 seems to just be inherently very pitchy -- if you compare F-35 to F-18E pitch maneuvers, the F-35 only requires flicks of the slabs to effect a new pitch attitude, whereas the bug requires the deflection to be held for a significantly longer duration before the new attitude sets in.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 18:28
by Raptor_claw
Not to be overly nit-picky, but for clarity the F-35A and B do not have ailerons. They are (interchangeably) TEFs (trailing-edge flaps), or Flaperons.
The reason they are scheduled "up" (trailing-edge up) at elevated and "high" AOAs is for roll control power considerations. The "up" schedule centers them in the region where they are most effective, and most efficient (i.e. most roll moment for minimum yaw moment) in generating rolling moment when deflected asymmetrically. At these AOAs, surface loads are generally small, and not an issue. Also, there is a small loss of lift/decrease in drag (relative to a more trailing-edge down deflection schedule at the same AOA), but those are not significant. The deflection schedule can, at some conditions, actually reduce the natural directional stability as well, but that small penalty is outweighed by the aforementioned benefits (tradeoffs are everywhere).

The same scheduling is visible in the F-22, although not as obvious until somewhat higher AOAs than those seen during the low altitude, low-speed (1g) pass...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 20:45
by castlebravo
halloweene wrote:it was recently shown by a journo embedded in a "test/transfer) flight that a Rafale with 3x1250L tanks and 2 micas could fly mach 1.7. Should be een faster for a Ty)hoon


Sounds to me like the Rafale is a good example of an aircraft that, like the F-35A, isn't thrust or drag limited at its specified top speed. I would wager that the Mach 1.8 Rafale would reach higher speeds in actual combat than the Mach 2 F-16C. Dassault must have been smart enough to realize that a top speed which is unusable in practice is not worth pursuing, and that resources could be better spent elsewhere.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 21:12
by ricnunes
castlebravo wrote:
halloweene wrote:it was recently shown by a journo embedded in a "test/transfer) flight that a Rafale with 3x1250L tanks and 2 micas could fly mach 1.7. Should be een faster for a Ty)hoon


Sounds to me like the Rafale is a good example of an aircraft that, like the F-35A, isn't thrust or drag limited at its specified top speed. I would wager that the Mach 1.8 Rafale would reach higher speeds in actual combat than the Mach 2 F-16C. Dassault must have been smart enough to realize that a top speed which is unusable in practice is not worth pursuing, and that resources could be better spent elsewhere.


I'm pretty sure that what halloweene said about the Rafale being able to reach Mach 1.7 (Mach One point Seven) with 3x1250L external fuel tanks plus 2 Micas AAMs is total BS (Bullsh*t)!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 21:36
by botsing
ricnunes wrote:
castlebravo wrote:
halloweene wrote:it was recently shown by a journo embedded in a "test/transfer) flight that a Rafale with 3x1250L tanks and 2 micas could fly mach 1.7. Should be een faster for a Ty)hoon


Sounds to me like the Rafale is a good example of an aircraft that, like the F-35A, isn't thrust or drag limited at its specified top speed. I would wager that the Mach 1.8 Rafale would reach higher speeds in actual combat than the Mach 2 F-16C. Dassault must have been smart enough to realize that a top speed which is unusable in practice is not worth pursuing, and that resources could be better spent elsewhere.


I'm pretty sure that what halloweene said about the Rafale being able to reach Mach 1.7 (Mach One point Seven) with 3x1250L external fuel tanks plus 2 Micas AAMs is total BS (Bullsh*t)!

On another forum halloweene mentions the fuel tanks as "3x1200L", so that "1.7" figure might change a bit over time too.

:roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 22:37
by wrightwing
ricnunes wrote:
castlebravo wrote:
halloweene wrote:it was recently shown by a journo embedded in a "test/transfer) flight that a Rafale with 3x1250L tanks and 2 micas could fly mach 1.7. Should be een faster for a Ty)hoon


Sounds to me like the Rafale is a good example of an aircraft that, like the F-35A, isn't thrust or drag limited at its specified top speed. I would wager that the Mach 1.8 Rafale would reach higher speeds in actual combat than the Mach 2 F-16C. Dassault must have been smart enough to realize that a top speed which is unusable in practice is not worth pursuing, and that resources could be better spent elsewhere.


I'm pretty sure that what halloweene said about the Rafale being able to reach Mach 1.7 (Mach One point Seven) with 3x1250L external fuel tanks plus 2 Micas AAMs is total BS (Bullsh*t)!


I've heard it can pull 11.5Gs.under those conditions too, and while in military power. :)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 23:50
by ricnunes
wrightwing wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
I'm pretty sure that what halloweene said about the Rafale being able to reach Mach 1.7 (Mach One point Seven) with 3x1250L external fuel tanks plus 2 Micas AAMs is total BS (Bullsh*t)!


I've heard it can pull 11.5Gs.under those conditions too, and while in military power. :)


You forget to mention the Hyperdrive! How could you forget about the Hyperdrive which allows the Rafale to break the speed of light barrier?
Oh, and I almost forgot the Rafale's Photon Torpedos which as I'm certain we all know, it allowed the Rafale to destroy the Death Star - And this is all well documented and proved!
:mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 00:05
by SpudmanWP
Last I heard, it could do the Kessel Run in less than 11 Parsecs. :roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 01:20
by jetblast16
Not with the M88-2 engines you're not. The Rafale's a fine and beautiful plane but with such a load (weight and drag) and those engines, it would never be able to reach such a Mach number. Never.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 02:07
by lbk000
ah ah, but it's a canard! that changes everything.

liberation from conventional planform is liberation from conventional aerodynamic constraints.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 02:18
by hythelday
lbk000 wrote:ah ah, but it's a canard! that changes everything.

liberation from conventional planform is liberation from conventional aerodynamic constraints.



It's called active aerodynamic drag cancelling. Rafale analyzes oncoming air using built-in anemometers and utilizes special fans to blow the exactly replicated air waves in the opposite direction, thus cancelling out drag. True story.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 10:19
by halloweene
Here

http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/ ... 87719.html picture at 8:45 (pilot : "here we arrive at mach 1.7"). Btw, i was wrong about one point, no mica on wingtips (not a huge difference vs tanks)

But of course he is lying and susual gang know better from their armchair.... :bang:

P.S. What is wrong with M88-2 in your opinion btw? (facts please).

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 10:37
by citanon
halloweene wrote:Here

http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/ ... 87719.html picture at 8:45 (pilot : "here we arrive at mach 1.7"). Btw, i was wrong about one point, no mica on wingtips (not a huge difference vs tanks)

But of course he is lying and susual gang know better from their armchair.... :bang:

P.S. What is wrong with M88-2 in your opinion btw? (facts please).


They are landed at 8:45....

Did you put in the time wrong?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 12:12
by mk82
citanon wrote:
halloweene wrote:Here

http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/ ... 87719.html picture at 8:45 (pilot : "here we arrive at mach 1.7"). Btw, i was wrong about one point, no mica on wingtips (not a huge difference vs tanks)

But of course he is lying and susual gang know better from their armchair.... :bang:

P.S. What is wrong with M88-2 in your opinion btw? (facts please).


They are landed at 8:45....

Did you put in the time wrong?


Nah....the timing is right. They were fantasizing about the Rafale hitting Mach 1.7 with 3 X EFTs and 2 X AAMs.....on the ground......bwahahahahahahaha :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 12:14
by halloweene
Yes, wrong time. 6.35'
Just check Mk82 you may get a headache laughing stupidly like that.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 13:49
by sferrin
halloweene wrote:Here

http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/ ... 87719.html picture at 8:45 (pilot : "here we arrive at mach 1.7"). Btw, i was wrong about one point, no mica on wingtips (not a huge difference vs tanks)

But of course he is lying and susual gang know better from their armchair.... :bang:

P.S. What is wrong with M88-2 in your opinion btw? (facts please).



Yet at the same time you'll tell us an aerodynamically clean F-35 can't do Mach 1.6. :roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 15:18
by viper12
Hi.

Long-time lurker here ; having seen halloweene's posts recently, I couldn't help but see a lack of sources when he himself asked for a lot of them, and I'd like to add my 2 cents to the video he posted.

For those who don't understand French, at 6:30, they're checking the fuel state and state the fuel consumption is of the order of 300-350 kg/min, or roughly 39K-46K PPH. Also, one should carefully check how they edited the video ; at 6:33, you can see the horizon relatively high behind the pilot's head, but then with the various edits that follow, you'd have a hard time knowing if there was or not an ellipsis.

But most importantly, we have no clue about the fuel state, how long they had to keep using (maximum) afterburner, if they had to unload or even dive to reach that speed.

So maybe the Rafale can do Mach 1.5+ with a combat loadout, but so far, it hasn't been proved, while the F-35 flies clean most of the time, and the only difference when loaded internally and unloaded is roughly 5K lb of extra weight, so a little extra induced drag, compared to all that induced and parasitic drag on the Rafale for a combat loadout.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 17:11
by spazsinbad

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 19:04
by halloweene
viper12 wrote:Hi.

Long-time lurker here ; having seen halloweene's posts recently, I couldn't help but see a lack of sources when he himself asked for a lot of them, and I'd like to add my 2 cents to the video he posted.

For those who don't understand French, at 6:30, they're checking the fuel status and state the fuel consumption is of the order of 300-350 kg/min, or roughly 39K-46K PPH. Also, one should carefully check how they edited the video ; at 6:33, you can see the horizon relatively high behind the pilot's head, but then with the various edits that follow, you'd have a hard time knowing if there was or not an ellipsis.

But most importantly, we have no clue about the fuel status, how long they had to keep using (maximum) afterburner, if they had to unload or even dive to reach that speed.

So maybe the Rafale can do Mach 1.5+ with a combat loadout, but so far, it hasn't been proved, while the F-35 flies clean most of the time, and the only difference when loaded internally and unloaded is roughly 5K lb of extra weight, so a little extra induced drag, compared to all that induced and parasitic drag on the Rafale for a combat loadout.


At 6'35, the pilot says to the passenger they are at mach 1.7. Clear plain french. What doese it have to do with fuel status? Inventing an elipsis to fit your opinion? good luck

But most importantly, we have no clue about the fuel status, how long they had to keep using (maximum) afterburner, if they had to unload or even dive to reach that speed.

you are absolutely right. What a lack of professionalism! i' will tell the author on Facebook he SHOULD have said "we did not have to unload or dive to reach the speed indicated!" just in case...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 20:19
by ricnunes
@halloweene,

Actually that video that you "shared" is actually an edited video where we can see:
1- A Rafale equipped with three (3) external fuel tanks plus 2 AAMs (Micas)
2- A Rafale equipped with one (1) external fuel tank (centerline) plus 2 AAMs (Micas if I'm not mistaken)
3- A Rafale equipped with three (3) external fuel tanks, plus 4 AAMs (Micas) and 2 additional stores which look to me to be Air-to-Ground stores (which I can't seem to identify at first glance).

So as you can see, the 3 points above alone and by themselves completely discredit your video as being accurate fact that a Rafale can attain Mach 1.7 with three (3) external fuel tanks plus 2 AAMs (Micas)!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 20:35
by botsing
halloweene wrote:
But most importantly, we have no clue about the fuel status, how long they had to keep using (maximum) afterburner, if they had to unload or even dive to reach that speed.

you are absolutely right. What a lack of professionalism! i' will tell the author on Facebook he SHOULD have said "we did not have to unload or dive to reach the speed indicated!" just in case...

You can keep being irritated about this while ridiculing it to eternity, it will however not change the fact that your mach 1.7 claim will stay at a very low confidence level without knowing more aspects of the circumstances of how this was reached. And to make matters worse: with the current information provided we do not even know if that speed was reached with your claimed load at all.

When there is not enough data, multiple theories can rise where none can be proven, yours is just one of them now.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 21:04
by geforcerfx

That's what google translate gave me, not much help.

But yeah there are 3 different configurations of rafale shown in the video, no idea which one was going to mach 1.7. Even if the 3 tank (empty) 2 missile plane got there with out knowing how much fuel they used to get there and how long they stayed it's a pretty empty claim. An ability to maintain mach 1.4 with that loudout for 5-10 min would be far more useful then getting to mach 1.7 and maintaining it for a min or two.

On a different thought, I added the empty part to the tanks above since the "supersonic" tanks for the rafale are just 330 gallon tanks. If I am not mistaken the 300 and 330 gallon tanks in the US inventory can't go above either mach 1.2 or mach 1.4 when they have fuel in them, I would think the rafale's tanks would have the same limit.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 21:09
by halloweene
Actually the journalist was embedded in a ferry/test flight from Cazaux to Istres. The flight started at 14:30 CET to last 1.5 hr. There were only camears inside the plane for selfies and one mounted under the nose looking behind. The flight was executed with 3*1250L drop tanks. During the flight the pilot commented for the njournalist (hence the 300 to 350 Kgs/min, the 20 secs to break sound barrier, And the mach 1.7. The pilot also quotes the plane to be slightly heavier than usual before a roll.)
Some outer views were inserted, nothing to do with that precise flight (ther was no accompanying plane to take photos!)
And there weren't missiles as i said above, i was wrong. Only the tanks, i wrote too fast while looking for the movie...

Denial of simple facts is not a good way to do. Will not work. But of course i understand that if it is opposite to your beliefs, you are wellcome to deny evidence...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 21:16
by halloweene
geforcerfx wrote:
That's what google translate gave me, not much help.

But yeah there are 3 different configurations of rafale shown in the video, no idea which one was going to mach 1.7. Even if the 3 tank (empty) 2 missile plane got there with out knowing how much fuel they used to get there and how long they stayed it's a pretty empty claim. An ability to maintain mach 1.4 with that loudout for 5-10 min would be far more useful then getting to mach 1.7 and maintaining it for a min or two.

On a different thought, I added the empty part to the tanks above since the "supersonic" tanks for the rafale are just 330 gallon tanks. If I am not mistaken the 300 and 330 gallon tanks in the US inventory can't go above either mach 1.2 or mach 1.4 when they have fuel in them, I would think the rafale's tanks would have the same limit.
O

In french inventory, 2000L tanks are qualified for 1.3 mach, but only as an emergency action. 1300L tanks are qualified as "supersonic", whole enveloppe of the plane (and they are not the same as US). Their presence limit the plane FCS to 5.5g btw. Rafale M was already quoted to supercruise at Mach 1.3 with those 1300L tanks. Of course, i bet you will ask me for a link?

PS liked the end with the auto terrain following mode (450 kts ground speed, 100 feet)?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 21:34
by lbk000
You know what, I'll give the Rafale the benefit of the doubt. It's not as if being able to hit Mach 2 is very difficult technologically; it's not as if it even requires very much thrust.

However, it's not particularly relevant in today's combat environment. We're long past scrambling point interceptors to catch Bears 200nm out. So you guys go on ahead with your M1.8 afterburning Rafale and its attendant plume and aerodynamic heating, that's a good IR decoy for the rest of the coalition.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 21:35
by garrya
To be fair, i do think it is plausible that Rafale can reach Mach 1.7 with 3 fuel tank, most modern aircraft have placard limit for their top speed rather than thrust limit.
For example
From F-16 flight manual, each 600 gallons ( 2727.65L ) tanks on station 4/6 has drag index of 30, the centerline 300 gallons (1363L ) tank has drag index of 18 .So the total 3 of them with wing tip missiles only has the drag index of 78.

Image

F-16CJ with CFT and drag index of 100 can reach top speed of Mach 1.6

Image

Thus, it would not be too much of a stretch to say F-16 can reach Mach 1.7 with 3 tanks and no CFTs. If F-16 with heavier tank can do that then I would expect Rafale to be able to do the same with supersonictanks. However, while top speed would not decrease alot, other aspect like acceleration, maneuver, radar cross section will all decrease horribly with 3 fuel tanks. A Rafale or F-16 with 3 fuel tanks will take forever to reach Mach 1.7 as they obviously can't cruise at that speed

The same case can be observed between the 3 version of F-35. Despite their physical size different, they share the same top speed. However, acceleration of C version is much worse than the A

P/s: my estimation only consider drag and not the supersonic capabilities of the tanks

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 22:23
by basher54321
http://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentViewer ... 8/evidence


Christian Worning
Eurofighter Project Test Pilot, Aeronautics, Cassidian Air Systems
I have done above Mach 1.6 for a total of 15 minutes with three tanks on, but that was with heavy manoeuvring in between.

If we put extra fuel tanks on the airplane—they are supersonic fuel tanks, and the airplane will fly at Mach 1.8 with three tanks


Stick a few bombs on though and you might be flutter limited to M0.9 :D

Didn't think it was news that some aircraft can go over M1.6 in an A-A config question is when was it ever practical outside of short range interception or flying a MiG-31.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2017, 22:26
by botsing
Thank you garrya!

There we have at last a well substantiated hypothesis.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 02:32
by jetblast16
Don't believe it. The jet loses a tenth of a mach with three "supersonic" tanks and 4 (2?) missiles, from its maximum stated speed of Mach 1.8?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 02:52
by spazsinbad
You may well ask why the TROLL has been allowed to take precedence in a thread about F-35 & Airshows? NESTPAS.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 02:58
by johnwill
garrya, your analysis of drag effects of tanks is not complete. I believe the 600 gallon tank is 20, not 30, since there is no store at 3/6. Doesn't it seem strange to you the 600 gallon tanks in the chart have a lower DI than the 370 tanks? Here's why. The 370 tanks include the pylon, which is bolted to the tank and jettisoned with the tank. The 600 tank DI is for tank only, since it is attached to the pylon with a ejector rack. So you need to add two pylons to the 600 tank DI.

Same thing for the 300 gallon centerline tank. You need to add a centerline pylon to the 300 tank DI. The chart includes a note saying the values do not include suspension equipment (pylons, TERs, etc.). Pylons have more drag than you might thunk due to interference drag at the wing and at the store interface. Interference drag is significant. Look at tank drag with and without stores at 3/6. The difference is interference drag.

The drag you left out is not enough to invalidate your conclusions.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 03:10
by viper12
@halloweene : Ah yes, facts.

There's a reason why I mentioned fuel state, unloading, diving and Mach 1.7 ; it's to show whether it's possible and tactically relevant.

Here's some facts : http://www.avialogs.com/viewer/avialogs ... hp?id=3704

This is the F-15A/C's flight manual. Many graphs are interesting, but the most interesting of all is on page 377, or A9-25. This is a loaded F-15A/C, powered by the F100-PW-100, with 4 AIM-7, 4 AIM-9, the centerline tank, an initial gross weight of 46,000lb and 97.7% engine trim (I'll let others tell me what is exactly engine trim...). Basically, that should be more or less equal to the Rafale and its 3 external fuel tanks in terms of drag. If you check the graph at 40,000ft, the aircraft already takes 200 seconds to accelerate from Mach 0.82 to Mach 1.37 on a standard day, at which point it's accelerating at a mere 0.03g = 0.2943 m/s = 1.059 km/h TAS per second = 0.572 knots TAS per second, or an acceleration level that is marginally useful in real situations IMO. At the end of the graph, so a freaking 660 seconds, the plane plateaus at Mach 1.48. Note this is *LEVEL* flight.

So your assertion would be that a Rafale, with a more or less equal drag with its 3 external fuel tanks, could reach Mach 1.7 ? That's already hard to swallow. Of course, you may say that it has some refinements in aerodynamics, but still, tough sell.

But wait, there's more ; check page 361, or A9-10C. At Mach 0.8 at 40,000ft, the F-15A/C in the same configuration as above, but with a gross weight reduced to 41,000lb, already burns a bit around 80 pounds per minute of fuel, or 4800 PPH. To fly at Mach 1.4, it would require burning 700 lb/min = 317.5 kg/min = 42,000 PPH. So that's roughly the same figure quoted in the France 3 video above. But to push to 1.48M, you'd need to extrapolate the 1.5M curve, which would give 880 lb/min ; let's use 850 lb/min for 1.48M. Assuming the fuel consumption stays relatively constant across this speed spectrum for a given RPM setting, the F-15A/C, to accelerate from 0.82M to 1.48M, would then spend 11 mins at 850lb/min or so, which means 9,350lb = 4,241 kg of fuel...

And with an initial gross weight of 46,000lb, that means dropping to ~36,650lb, and with an empty weight of ~28,000lb, around ~3,000lb for the missiles, probably 1-2K pounds for the remaining pylons and centerline fuel tank, you're left with around 3,650-4,650lb of fuel, so not that much and already returning to base/tanker if you don't want to punch out.

Now please remind me how much fuel a Rafale carries, and put that number in perspective. And now imagine you have to push to Mach 1.7 ; you'd be either very low on fuel, either it's impossible with the fuel carried, even with 3x 1,250L in external fuel tanks, and that's why unloading/diving is a real possibility.

Or a cold day ; the F-15A/C hits its design limit, Mach 1.8, with this given configuration after 500 seconds if the air temperature is 10°C below standard. Note the F-15A/C reaches 1.7M after ~360 seconds.

To expand garrya's analysis, check page 181 (A8-29) : https://info.publicintelligence.net/HAF ... lement.pdf

The F-16C Block 52 is has roughly 8% less empty weight and roughly 14% less static thrust compared to the Rafale, so if we were to compare apples to apples, we'd have to adjust fuel quantity a bit ; keep in mind that the 3x 1250L of the Rafale's external fuel tanks is about 990 US gal, so the closest thing you'd get to that, and further adjusting for the lower weight, would be something like 2x 370 gal fuel tanks and 2-4 AAMs, so the drag index would be around 50-70. An F-16C Block 52 with 2x 370 gal, 2 AIM-120C and 2 AIM-9X weighs roughly 35,000lb, so take at the table with a drag index of 50, and interpolate between 32K and 36K gross weight. To reach 1.67M, you'd need roughly 2,000lb of fuel and roughly 1 minute to accelerate from 0.67M. Now if I severely underestimated the drag index, take the DI=100 chart, and the numbers explode ; at 34K pounds GW, the F-16CJ requires 5045lb of fuel and 139.7 seconds to accelerate. Keep in mind this F-16C carries around 12,000lb of fuel, so pulling such a stunt would consume a significant part of its fuel.

I won't even quote the F/A-18E's NATOPS as the numbers are truly terrible and it doesn't approach Mach 1.7 ; it closes in on Mach 1.6 with 2 AIM-9 and 2 AIM-120 at 36-37K ft...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 04:28
by garrya
johnwill wrote:garrya, your analysis of drag effects of tanks is not complete. I believe the 600 gallon tank is 20, not 30, since there is no store at 3/6. Doesn't it seem strange to you the 600 gallon tanks in the chart have a lower DI than the 370 tanks? Here's why. The 370 tanks include the pylon, which is bolted to the tank and jettisoned with the tank. The 600 tank DI is for tank only, since it is attached to the pylon with a ejector rack. So you need to add two pylons to the 600 tank DI.

Same thing for the 300 gallon centerline tank. You need to add a centerline pylon to the 300 tank DI. The chart includes a note saying the values do not include suspension equipment (pylons, TERs, etc.). Pylons have more drag than you might thunk due to interference drag at the wing and at the store interface. Interference drag is significant. Look at tank drag with and without stores at 3/6. The difference is interference drag.

The drag you left out is not enough to invalidate your conclusions.

Thank you Johnwill
i checked the sheet again
Centerline pylon has drag index of 7, pylon on station 4/6 has drag index of 8, so when nothing is carried at station 3/7 each 600 gallons tank with pylon at station 4/6 will have a drag index of 28 , the centerline tank will have drag index of 25. So the three of them will have a total drag index of 81. Like you said , it is still lower than 100 so shouldn't affect the conclusion
Image

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 05:06
by spazsinbad
And agan: what has this got to do with the F-35s at Airshows? Come on - let it go - start another thread in another section.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 08:10
by halloweene
spazsinbad wrote:And agan: what has this got to do with the F-35s at Airshows? Come on - let it go - start another thread in another section.


Sorry about that. Originally it was just an answer to a quote (no other plane than F-35 can......), than show me source etc. You are right it is ff topic.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 12:13
by optimist
spazsinbad wrote:And agan: what has this got to do with the F-35s at Airshows? Come on - let it go - start another thread in another section.

+1, then I can choose to open or not, a rafale, typhoon or su thread is the bestbestbestest.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 12:21
by spazsinbad
Go for it. No objection to discussion if it is valid - just that this thread is about the EXCELLENT F-35 AIRSHOWS!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 12:26
by ricnunes
halloweene wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:And agan: what has this got to do with the F-35s at Airshows? Come on - let it go - start another thread in another section.


Originally it was just an answer to a quote (no other plane than F-35 can......)


And that's a fact!
- No other plane (besides the F-35) can travel at Mach 1.6 with 2x2000lb JDAMs and 2xAMRAAMs (or similar weapons/stores) "attached" and again that's a fact which your posts didn't prove otherwise (by the contrary), so yes you're kinda trolling here. :roll:

Regarding your posts/Mach 1.7/Rafale, I disagree but I'm not going to respond since like others have said, this thread is about the F-35 Airshow. However if someone wants to start a topic to expand on this subject, I'll gladly participate in it.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 15:42
by SpudmanWP
ricnunes wrote:- No other plane (besides the F-35) can travel at Mach 1.6 with 2x2000lb JDAMs and 2xAMRAAMs (or similar weapons/stores) "attached" and again that's a fact which your posts didn't prove otherwise (by the contrary)


Don't forget that it does this while carrying enough fuel for a 600nm+ combat radius mission.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2017, 17:00
by spazsinbad
Earlier 'Dragon029' posted only the URL (which is OK) in this post with other video & to get back on track here it is again.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=24622&p=369923&hilit=93NdwZAeXhI#p369923

F-35 Aerial Demonstration Debut at 2017 Paris Air Show 19 Jun 2017 LM PR


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2017, 09:11
by doge
The Israel F-35 is turning round and round!@@



Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2017, 12:54
by halloweene
As it concerns only F-35, i'll answer only to one point. No clue about F-35 able to fly Mach 1.6 with fuel load + bombs. Weignt mean lift therefore drag...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2017, 13:01
by viper12
viper12 wrote:@halloweene : Ah yes, facts...


I don't have any edit button yet as a newbie, so some numbers are off ; a corrected version shall appear in the F-35 vs Rafale thread to prevent further clogging : viewtopic.php?f=55&t=6094&start=540

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2017, 13:36
by viper12

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2017, 14:09
by garrya
halloweene wrote:As it concerns only F-35, i'll answer only to one point. No clue about F-35 able to fly Mach 1.6 with fuel load + bombs. Weignt mean lift therefore drag...

Similar to F-16 and Rafale, F-35 also have loads of excess thrust, it can easily fly at Mach 1.6 even with two 2000 lbs bombs. 4000 lbs is only around 8% loaded weight of the aircraft, and the lift generated at Mach 1.6 is far excess the aircraft weight
Image

Consider the 3 version of F-35, the C version and B version both have bigger physical dimension than the A, this mean much higher drag at supersonic speed

Image
Image


the C version is also around 15% heavier, this have bigger impact than the loaded JDAM

Image

While already bigger than the A version, the B version also have slightly lower thrust
Image

Despite all these factors, at the end they all share the same top speed limit of Mach 1.6 . This mean F-35 top speed is placard limit rather than thrust limit, it has a massive amount of excess thrust to reach Mach 1.6 with internal weapons

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2017, 14:19
by mixelflick
Sweet Jesus, the instantaneous turns are fearsome, very Raptor like.

Now I'm not looking for "issues" with the plane, but what doesn't it have insofar as raw performance? Does it perhaps not recover energy as fast as other fighters? And how sluggish will the C be in comparison to this A model??

Many thanks for all who answer..

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2017, 14:44
by juretrn
mixelflick wrote:Sweet Jesus, the instantaneous turns are fearsome, very Raptor like.

Now I'm not looking for "issues" with the plane, but what doesn't it have insofar as raw performance? Does it perhaps not recover energy as fast as other fighters? And how sluggish will the C be in comparison to this A model??

Many thanks for all who answer..

Mixel;
reading responses to the Paris display here, on some "other" forum, AvWeek, Aviationist... I can only conclude that people only see what they want to see. I guess being objective is really hard when a negative cognitive bias is so well entrenched as it is against the F-35.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2017, 15:00
by sprstdlyscottsmn
mixelflick wrote:Sweet Jesus, the instantaneous turns are fearsome, very Raptor like.

Now I'm not looking for "issues" with the plane, but what doesn't it have insofar as raw performance? Does it perhaps not recover energy as fast as other fighters? And how sluggish will the C be in comparison to this A model??

Many thanks for all who answer..

Dolby Hanche says it recovers energy faster than an F-16. Flynn said it's performance is superior to all fourth gen including Typhoon. Take for what it's worth, they are comparing combat loaded aircraft.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2017, 15:06
by castlebravo
mixelflick wrote:Now I'm not looking for "issues" with the plane, but what doesn't it have insofar as raw performance? Does it perhaps not recover energy as fast as other fighters? And how sluggish will the C be in comparison to this A model??


It doesn't have the range or payload of the B-1B, it doesn't have the gun or the loiter time of the A-10, it doesn't have the internal missile capacity of the Raptor, it doesn't have the speed of the MiG-25, it doesn't have the service ceiling of the Space Shuttle, it doesn't have the directed energy weapons of the USS Enterprise NCC-1701....

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2017, 22:31
by sferrin
halloweene wrote:No clue about F-35 able to fly Mach 1.6 with fuel load + bombs.


Yeah, we know. :roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2017, 23:01
by spazsinbad
:crazypilot: AND... back to the AIRSHOWs. Another LM F-35 Chief Test Pilot explanation of PAS 2017 maneuvers - attaboy. :applause:


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 00:18
by ricnunes
halloweene wrote:No clue about F-35 able to fly Mach 1.6 with fuel load + bombs. Weignt mean lift therefore drag...


Yes, you are a clueless fellow indeed!
In the official Lockheed Martin page you can download the F-35 fast facts HERE:
https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a6 ... _2017_.pdf

And if you are too lazy to open a READ the damm file, I'll draw you a picture or more precisely I'll post the relevant part here:

Image

Oh, and the above is OFFICIAL MANUFACTURER SPECS and not some random and edited video, capiche?? :roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 09:31
by krorvik
halloweene wrote:Weignt mean lift therefore drag...


There are other kinds of drag too - like mentioned before here. Only the F-35 avoids paracitic drag by objects like tanks and bombs - moving through air.

The induced drag (by lift) you are likely referring to varies a lot with airframe design - and the amount of body lift the airframe delivers for instance.

Simply put - you cannot assume two airframes experience the same drag based simply by the same weight.

All we've seen indicate the F-35 has a very high amount of lift compared to it's surface areas, combined with a very high thrust class engine. There's no reason to distrust LM and (probably) the finest fighter pilots in the world when they say they pull this off with high loads. (standard disclaimer - unless you can back it up with real, verifiable math! ;))

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 09:45
by halloweene
krorvik wrote:
halloweene wrote:Weignt mean lift therefore drag...


There are other kinds of drag too - like mentioned before here. Only the F-35 avoids paracitic drag by objects like tanks and bombs - moving through air.

The induced drag (by lift) you are likely referring to varies a lot with airframe design - and the amount of body lift the airframe delivers for instance.

Simply put - you cannot assume two airframes experience the same drag based simply by the same weight.

All we've seen indicate the F-35 has a very high amount of lift compared to it's surface areas, combined with a very high thrust class engine. There's no reason to distrust LM and (probably) the finest fighter pilots in the world when they say they pull this off with high loads. (standard disclaimer - unless you can back it up with real, verifiable math! ;))


Point is i never saw them saying they could hit 9g or Mach 1.6 fully loaded. Therefore i am not distrusting them. In the example above, one mentioned the larger F-35C wing as a paramout of larger drag. This may be true, may also not be. We do not know the induced drag of wing vortices for an example.
The weight induced drag will of course vary depending on many factors.(still, more wight = more drag). My only intent was to say that the fact that an airframe can reach mach 1.6 empty do not mean it will reach it fully loaded.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 10:14
by krorvik
halloweene wrote:Point is i never saw them saying they could hit 9g or Mach 1.6 fully loaded.


This good enough for you?



I have a feeling Mr. Flynn is a bit annoyed at times too...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 14:56
by ricnunes
halloweene wrote:
My only intent was to say that the fact that an airframe can reach mach 1.6 empty do not mean it will reach it fully loaded.


F*CK, you ain't clueless, you simply can't read (at least in PLAIN English) can you??

The F-35 max speed of Mach 1.6 spec IS WITH FULL INTERNAL WEAPONS, period!
Just read the document that I posted on my last post - Again, these are manufacturer specs not just some random video which you like to use as "evidence" for your BS.
If you insist on otherwise than you're simply a LIAR and to be honest I'm starting to think that this forum administration should take some sort of action towards you...

For the remaining members here, I'm sorry for my bad language but this is getting not only frustrating but really infuriating :roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 15:07
by white_lightning35
Try convincing someone on Youtube, or better yet, some 12 year-old kid whose dad is a commercial pilot and gets all his information from Youtube.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 15:09
by mixelflick
castlebravo wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Now I'm not looking for "issues" with the plane, but what doesn't it have insofar as raw performance? Does it perhaps not recover energy as fast as other fighters? And how sluggish will the C be in comparison to this A model??


It doesn't have the range or payload of the B-1B, it doesn't have the gun or the loiter time of the A-10, it doesn't have the internal missile capacity of the Raptor, it doesn't have the speed of the MiG-25, it doesn't have the service ceiling of the Space Shuttle, it doesn't have the directed energy weapons of the USS Enterprise NCC-1701....


Excellent analysis.

There's a senior staff writer position waiting for you a Sputnicknews.com! :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 16:28
by count_to_10
krorvik wrote:
halloweene wrote:Point is i never saw them saying they could hit 9g or Mach 1.6 fully loaded.


This good enough for you?



I have a feeling Mr. Flynn is a bit annoyed at times too...

I was going to say there was still some question of how much of a fuel load it could do everything with, but that pretty much clears that up.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 17:07
by garrya
halloweene wrote: In the example above, one mentioned the larger F-35C wing as a paramout of larger drag. This may be true, may also not be.

May be ?????? are you for real ?
F-35C refference wing area is 34% bigger than F-35A, The empty weight of C version is around 19% heavier than the A version , and you think only "may be", "perhaps" the C version has higher drag than A version?
At the same time you think 2 internal JDAM that weight around 8% of loaded F-35 can slow it down so much that it can't reach Mach 1.6 ?
Moreover, lift induced drag is negliable compared to parasitic drag at high speed
Image

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 18:27
by viper12
garrya wrote:Moreover, lift induced drag is negliable compared to parasitic drag at high speed
Image


To be fair, the F-35's Vmaxrange should be somewhere in the Mach 0.7-0.9 range, so that would shift the curves a bit, but your point stands.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 19:04
by johnwill
One thing is certain, no F-35 can fly 1.6 with full weapons and full fuel.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 19:50
by sferrin
johnwill wrote:One thing is certain, no F-35 can fly 1.6 with full weapons and full fuel.


Is this sarcasm? :-?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 20:16
by garrya
sferrin wrote:
Is this sarcasm? :-?

I think John mean, F-35 can't have instantaneous acceleration to go from 0 km/h to Mach 1.6 but need to spend fuel to get there, as like any aircraft

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 21:49
by viper12
Although we have no certain numbers, spurts did an analysis in one of his Strike fighters air to air PDFs. In one of them, there's a scenario of an F-35A doing an intercept, with the following assumptions :


The flight profile being used is maximum power take off followed by acceleration to maximum thrust climb profile speed. The maximum thrust climb profile will be followed until the aircraft reaches an altitude at which it can accelerate to its maximum physical speed. If the maximum forward speed is drag limited then the aircraft will continue at maximum thrust for the dash stage. If the maximum speed is a placard limit and the aircraft has excess thrust then it will climb at its maximum speed until the rate of climb falls below 500ft/min or the aircraft reaches a critical fuel state.



Interestingly, there are 2 graphs for that ; remaining fuel vs distance from airfield, and speed vs distance from airfield. From these graphs, one can see that the F-35A hits Mach 1.6 at around 55nm, at which point it has around 12,000lb of fuel remaining. So that would put an upper bound of around 6,000lb of fuel used to accelerate to Mach 1.6, as there's already a lot of that used for takeoff and climb. Of course, that's valid if spurts' model is accurate, but nothing so far suggests it's not.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 22:26
by johnwill
sferrin wrote:
johnwill wrote:One thing is certain, no F-35 can fly 1.6 with full weapons and full fuel.


Is this sarcasm? :-?


Should be obvious. It was supposed to make you think a little bit about it. If I have to put a smiley in, It loses its value as sarcasm. :wink:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 23:35
by krorvik
Of course, if you have a stratotanker available, you won't have to take off first.

Then again, all those scenarios are a tad.... theoretical.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2017, 02:08
by johnwill
Since we are going down that road, why not hit the tanker, shut down the engine, and pick up a tow from a nearby. SR-71?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2017, 02:20
by sferrin
johnwill wrote:
sferrin wrote:
johnwill wrote:One thing is certain, no F-35 can fly 1.6 with full weapons and full fuel.


Is this sarcasm? :-?


Should be obvious. It was supposed to make you think a little bit about it. If I have to put a smiley in, It loses its value as sarcasm. :wink:



:doh:
You're correct of course. Although. . .there were concepts of tanker variants both the B-58 and XB-70. :shock:

Super 1.PNG

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2017, 11:13
by basher54321
johnwill wrote:One thing is certain, no F-35 can fly 1.6 with full weapons and full fuel.



:notworthy:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2017, 12:37
by optimist
@halloweene. FAIR WARNING
mate I've had enough, pull your head in or I will email the admin. They don't mod the board that closely and like to be informed when someone goes too far.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2017, 15:49
by krorvik
johnwill wrote:Since we are going down that road, why not hit the tanker, shut down the engine, and pick up a tow from a nearby. SR-71?


Oh, I just got an excellent idea for the next gen fighter engine... no, scratch that, the J58 wasn't powerful enough...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2017, 07:26
by halloweene
optimist wrote:@halloweene. FAIR WARNING
mate I've had enough, pull your head in or I will email the admin. They don't mod the board that closely and like to be informed when someone goes too far.


C'mon, write. I simply said that an aircraft reaching 1.6 mach in optimal conditions is not a cue that it will reach same speed fully loaded... But of course, if it is a religious matter....

Only one guy posted here a convincing piece that i was wrong (the interview of Billy Flynn). On that, i say ok.

So Ok, F35 can fly at Mach 1.6 fully loaded. And other planes can fly above mach 1.6 with 3*1250L tanks....

Edit : didn't notice ricnunes sheet. Ok with1.6 fully loaded. 'dubious, but offciila LM claim so... i have to agree)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2017, 13:34
by ricnunes
halloweene wrote:
So Ok, F35 can fly at Mach 1.6 fully loaded. And other planes can fly above mach 1.6 with 3*1250L tanks....

Edit : didn't notice ricnunes sheet. Ok with1.6 fully loaded. 'dubious, but offciila LM claim so... i have to agree)


So, for you real information (which was confirmed after REAL tests) is "dubious LM claim" but an edited video that you posted is suddenly instant and undeniable evidence of truth! You're a pathetic fellow indeed. :roll:

You really want to know what is dubious?? Dubious is saying that a plane which has a top speed of Mach 1.8 CLEAN but can reach Mach 1.7 (only looses Mach 0.1) with 3 external fuel tanks (even if they are "Supersonic tanks") plus 2 AAMs or resuming with a considerable number of external stores attached. That's really dubious and by the way not officially confirmed by Dassault itself.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2017, 14:04
by halloweene
Reread what i said... I have to agree. The only edition in the video is the insertion of extra shots of Rafale, seen from outside....

Not my bad if you do not speak french so as to understand, is it? And who told you that max rafale dash seed is mach 1.8? It is operational speed (prototype reached mach 2 with 1 M88 and one F-404, but slightly different aerodynamics). Anw, assuming it is max speed, it can still can fly 1.7 mach with those 3 tanks...
I was maybe wrong but ar least I admit it, which you'll never do, be it about spectra, Rafale speed, air intakes etc. Still faster than a F-35.
Move that discussion towards F-35 vs Rafale topic?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2017, 15:00
by ricnunes
halloweene wrote:Reread what i said... I have to agree. The only edition in the video is the insertion of extra shots of Rafale, seen from outside....


Nope, that's not the only "edition in the video". How about the MFDs which shows the Rafale equipped with 3 external tanks, 4 AAMs and 2 Air-to-Ground stores??
The video is edited and therefore that's more than evidence that shows that video is NOT a reliable source of information!

halloweene wrote:Not my bad if you do not speak french so as to understand, is it?

And who told you that max rafale dash seed is mach 1.8?


How about Dassault itself?? Here, look at what Dassault says about the Rafale's top speed:
https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/de ... ance-data/

Now you claim to know more than Dassault?? :roll:

halloweene wrote:It is operational speed (prototype reached mach 2 with 1 M88 and one F-404, but slightly different aerodynamics). Anw, assuming it is max speed, it can still can fly 1.7 mach with those 3 tanks...


Just because a prototype reached Mach 2 doesn't mean that the full production reaches it! You know, full production aircraft usually have its weight increased and so on...
For example the YF-17 Cobra which can be considered a "prototype" of the F/A-18 also reached Mach 2 but the F/A-18 reaches Mach 1.8+

I may not understand French much, that's a fact. However you don't understand squat about military aviation and when you are proved wrong so simply won't admit it! Resuming you're only a Rafale fanboy posting Rafale BS here!

halloweene wrote:I was maybe wrong but ar least I admit it,


You what??

"Ok with1.6 fully loaded. 'dubious, but offciila LM claim so..."

is admitting being wrong?? Really?? :roll:

halloweene wrote:which you'll never do, be it about spectra, Rafale speed, air intakes etc.


What the f*ck are you talking about?? About Spectra I was proven to be right! It was proven that Spectra was only a Self-Defence system which manages ECM and decoys and that the "Active-Stealth" BS that you claimed is false and doesn't exists!
About the Air intakes I admitted that there was some RCS reduction treatment in the Rafale's Air intakes so yes I learned something here. So the "I never admit..." from your part is again wrong.
I also admitted being wrong on other subjects here, as opposed to you!
But even regarding the Rafale's Air intakes I was able to somehow prove that part of the Rafale's engine/fan blades is exposed (less than I thought, thou) where some like yourself initially claimed that the Rafale's engine/fan blades are fully hidden - You even ended up agreeing with me on this... :roll:

halloweene wrote:Still faster than a F-35.
Move that discussion towards F-35 vs Rafale topic?


Still faster where?? You didn't prove squat and even if your video is somehow accurate (which I doubt) you still ignore that 3 Supersonic External Tanks produce far less drag than 2 2000lb bombs such as the JDAM. Moreover, was the Rafale diving/descending for example? We don't know this and your video certainly doesn't clear this up.
So yes, the F-35 is faster than the Rafale with 2x2000lb Bombs and 2xAAMs (NOTE: bombs and not external fuel tanks) and that's a fact! Resuming, try attaching 2x2000lb JDAMs (or similar weapons) plus 2xAAMs and see how fast can a Rafale go :roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2017, 17:02
by steve2267
Can we get this thread back on to the topic of F-35 and airshows? Take the Rafale bickering to the vs Rafale thread, or create a new one.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2017, 17:05
by garrya
halloweene wrote:Only one guy posted here a convincing piece that i was wrong (the interview of Billy Flynn).

So an F-35C with 34% bigger wing area, 19% higher empty weight than A version can still reach Mach 1.6 but F-35A will not be able to reach Mach 1.6 if it is carry 2 internal JDAM (8% heavier) ? what kind of logic is that?

halloweene wrote: F-35 can fly at Mach 1.6 fully loaded. And other planes can fly above mach 1.6 with 3*1250L tanks....

Rafale can reach Mach 1.7 with 3*1250L tanks
F-16 can reach Mach 1.6 with Conformal fuel tanks, 2* 2727.65L tanks and 1*1363L tanks
F-15E can reach even higher speed.
If you want to compare top speed then without a doubt F-35 is nothing special here. However, if we talk about the possibility of reaching that speed then that is a whole other matter. F-35 with internal weapons load is only heavier which mean only induced drag will change while parasitic drag remained the same. Induced drag is insignificant compared to parasitic drag at high speed as the lift produced is more than enough to balance aircraft weight so aircraft can actually fly at zero angle of attack. On the other hand, all others aircraft will have their parasitic drag increased significantly with weapons load, which mean they will take dramatically longer to reach those quoted speed than if they were clean.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2017, 17:32
by SpudmanWP
The F-35's mach 1.6 limit was an artificial limit put in place due to the needs of the services.

They basically did not want to test beyond that since time in combat at those speeds, for a multi-role fighter, is almost non-existent.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2017, 20:33
by viper12
garrya wrote:Rafale can reach Mach 1.7 with 3*1250L tanks
F-16 can reach Mach 1.6 with Conformal fuel tanks, 2* 2727.65L tanks and 1*1363L tanks
F-15E can reach even higher speed.
If you want to compare top speed then without a doubt F-35 is nothing special here. However, if we talk about the possibility of reaching that speed then that is a whole other matter. F-35 with internal weapons load is only heavier which mean only induced drag will change while parasitic drag remained the same. Induced drag is insignificant compared to parasitic drag at high speed as the lift produced is more than enough to balance aircraft weight so aircraft can actually fly at zero angle of attack. On the other hand, all others aircraft will have their parasitic drag increased significantly with weapons load, which mean they will take dramatically longer to reach those quoted speed than if they were clean.


You messed up your gallon--->liter conversion ; U.S. fuel tanks have capacities expressed in U.S. gallons, not Imperial gallons, so it's 1 U.S. gal =~ 3.785L, so 2x 2271L and 1x 1136L tanks. BTW, I missed that the HAF F-16 performance charts include CFTs, as written on page 482, or C1-1 : https://info.publicintelligence.net/HAF ... lement.pdf

It's also interesting to note that 370-gallon fuel tanks are draggier than 600-gallon ones, as shown on page 21, or A1-12. [s]Though I'm not too sure how to count the drag, since the 370-gallon tanks have NONE in the rack column, versus PYLON (NJETT) for the 600-gallon ones.[/s] EDIT : Missed johnwill's post about the bolted pylon on the 370-gallon tank ; the 600-gallon tanks are then a bit draggier than 370-gal ones.

Also, according to page 425 (B8-29), this F-16C with CFTs and a DI=100, can fly at Mach 1.76-1.78 depending on the gross weight, and 2x 600-gallon tanks and 1x 300-gallon centerline tank shall have less than a DI smaller than 100.

Also note that these speeds reappear in the graphs on page 160 (A8-8), which specify a 500 FPM climb potential remaining, so it's got some reserve.

So with this kind of data, it should make plausible the possibility of the Rafale flying at Mach 1.7 with 3x 1250L external fuel tanks.

@halloweene : Instead of aggressiveness and making assertions in pretty much every post, do what we do ; post data, post *DETAILED* manufacturer claims, and most importantly, *UNEQUIVOCAL* sources. Otherwise, be sure people will continue to treat you like that.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2017, 21:19
by jetblast16
'Rafale can reach Mach 1.7 with 3*1250L tanks' - I have my serious doubts. If the public value for the Rafale's top speed is Mach 1.8, then, how can a dual-seat Rafale, carrying 2-4 AA missiles and three external tanks reach within one tenth of a Mach of its full, top-end speed?

The F-35, on the other hand, can reach and sustain Mach 1.6, carrying two 2,000 LB bombs and two radar-guided missiles, in full-up stealth configuration. Name a plane flying today that can do that.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2017, 21:29
by basher54321
viper12 wrote:
It's also interesting to note that 370-gallon fuel tanks are draggier than 600-gallon ones, as shown on page 21, or A1-12. Though I'm not too sure how to count the drag, since the 370-gallon tanks have NONE in the rack column, versus PYLON (NJETT) for the 600-gallon ones.


The 600 tank has a slightly higher drag index figure once you add the drag of the pylon and were speed limited to M0.9 (the 370 tanks have an integrated pylon)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2017, 23:29
by halloweene
viper12 wrote:
garrya wrote:Rafale can reach Mach 1.7 with 3*1250L tanks
F-16 can reach Mach 1.6 with Conformal fuel tanks, 2* 2727.65L tanks and 1*1363L tanks
F-15E can reach even higher speed.
If you want to compare top speed then without a doubt F-35 is nothing special here. However, if we talk about the possibility of reaching that speed then that is a whole other matter. F-35 with internal weapons load is only heavier which mean only induced drag will change while parasitic drag remained the same. Induced drag is insignificant compared to parasitic drag at high speed as the lift produced is more than enough to balance aircraft weight so aircraft can actually fly at zero angle of attack. On the other hand, all others aircraft will have their parasitic drag increased significantly with weapons load, which mean they will take dramatically longer to reach those quoted speed than if they were clean.


You messed up your gallon--->liter conversion ; U.S. fuel tanks have capacities expressed in U.S. gallons, not Imperial gallons, so it's 1 U.S. gal =~ 3.785L, so 2x 2271L and 1x 1136L tanks. BTW, I missed that the HAF F-16 performance charts include CFTs, as written on page 482, or C1-1 : https://info.publicintelligence.net/HAF ... lement.pdf

It's also interesting to note that 370-gallon fuel tanks are draggier than 600-gallon ones, as shown on page 21, or A1-12. Though I'm not too sure how to count the drag, since the 370-gallon tanks have NONE in the rack column, versus PYLON (NJETT) for the 600-gallon ones.

Also, according to page 425 (B8-29), this F-16C with CFTs and a DI=100, can fly at Mach 1.76-1.78 depending on the gross weight, and 2x 600-gallon tanks and 1x 300-gallon centerline tank shall have less than a DI smaller than 100.

Also note that these speeds reappear in the graphs on page 160 (A8-8), which specify a 500 FPM climb potential remaining, so it's got some reserve.

So with this kind of data, it should make plausible the possibility of the Rafale flying at Mach 1.7 with 3x 1250L external fuel tanks.

@halloweene : Instead of aggressiveness and making assertions in pretty much every post, do what we do ; post data, post *DETAILED* manufacturer claims, and most importantly, *UNEQUIVOCAL* sources. Otherwise, be sure people will continue to treat you like that.


When i was asked to post data, i posted that very recent movie from FR3 Aquitaine. It is definitely not my fault if some definitely do not WANT to believe what the pilot and journalist say. If you look at the movie, there are only 2 cameras : one inside the cockpit for "selfie" and one under the nose lokking rearwards. µThe fact that some other external views of the plane were inserted inside the final cut has nothing to ndo with "editing the story". Originally my only purpose was to show that going mach 1.6 with loading is not so exceptionial. The rest should be on Rafale/F-35 thread, agree. But look when i posted those value, some talked ironically about "warp" etc...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2017, 00:14
by ricnunes
jetblast16 wrote:'Rafale can reach Mach 1.7 with 3*1250L tanks' - I have my serious doubts. If the public value for the Rafale's top speed is Mach 1.8, then, how can a dual-seat Rafale, carrying 2-4 AA missiles and three external tanks reach within one tenth of a Mach of its full, top-end speed?

The F-35, on the other hand, can reach and sustain Mach 1.6, carrying two 2,000 LB bombs and two radar-guided missiles, in full-up stealth configuration. Name a plane flying today that can do that.


I fully agree with you!

Moreover, I remember that someone here at F-16.net and in the past mentioned that according to the Super Hornet (which has a top speed of Mach 1.8+ clean - similar to the Rafale) NATOPS manual and according to the drag induced by AMRAAM and Sidewinder missiles that the top speed of the Super Hornet with 2 wingtip mounted Sidewinders and 2 AMRAAMs mounted on the fuselage pylons was around Mach 1.57
Unfortunately I can't seem to find this post/thread again. But if the above is true than there's NO WAY a Rafale would only loose around 0.1 of a Mach (or around 6% of top speed) with 3 EFT and 2 AAMs (Micas) while the Super Hornet with 2 AMRAAMs and 2 Sidewinders would loose around 0.23 of a Mach (or around 13% of top speed).

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2017, 00:26
by viper12
halloweene wrote:When i was asked to post data, i posted that very recent movie from FR3 Aquitaine. It is definitely not my fault if some definitely do not WANT to believe what the pilot and journalist say.


One source, coupled with your posting history, work together against you. So learn to post *UNEQUIVOCAL* stuff backed by as many facts and sources as possible.

@ricnunes : You can check the Super Hornet's performance on page 381 (XI-10-15) : https://info.publicintelligence.net/F18-EF-200.pdf

If you check page 369 (XI-10-3), the Mach 1.59 figure is given at 36,000ft with this loadout. I should also point out the graphs don't seem to have the same conditions as in the HAF F-16C manual ; there isn't the 500FPM climb reserve for example.

About the Rafale ; while I do think the Rafale reaching Mach 1.7 with 3 external fuel tanks is a possibility when compared with what the F-15 and F-16C can do, I would say the French either don't tell us everything, either are terrible for PR. The Mach 1.8 limit may well be a placard limit like on the F-35, so 1.7M with 3 tanks wouldn't be too surprising then. What's more troubling is that the Rafale has failed many bids on foreign markets, so you'd think they would at least publicize some strong points of their product, yet this didn't happen. In comparison, the flight performance level of the F-35 has been known for years, if not a decade already...

One possible explaination though is that Mach 1.7 with 3 tanks on the Rafale is simply tactically useless ; if the performance level is comparable to the F-15A/C with 4 AIM-9, 4 AIM-7 and centerline tank, or comparable to the F-16C with DI=100, the times and distances involved are simply too great. On the F-15A/C, you take roughly 100 seconds to accelerate from 0.82M to 1.20M, then an extra 140 seconds between 1.20M and 1.40M, and you can average the rest of the flight as 455 seconds at 1.45M. 1M at 40,000ft is 573.6 knots TAS, so a rough integration of the speed vs time curve gives you 16.1NM traveled between 0.82M and 1.20M, 29.0NM between 1.20M and 1.40M, and 72.5NM for the portion at ~1.45M, so a total of 117.6NM. If we do the same thing with the F-16C with CFTs and DI=100 at 34,000lb GW, it takes 686 seconds and 139.7NM from 0.67M to 1.66M, or 606 seconds and 123.9NM between 0.82M and 1.66M. In both cases, we're clearly talking about 100NM+ maximum afterburner dashes, which should very rarely happen based on factors such as detection range, RCS of the target, ROEs, etc.

A real world example is Cesar Rodriguez's kill during Operation Allied Force, where he said he was flying at over 30K ft and at Mach 1.4, which to the best of my knowledge, is one of the fastest speeds to that day when launching a missile during a war : https://youtu.be/hSOYLKKnqz4?t=2179

So that would suggest he didn't have the luxury to accelerate for 100NM+ from cruise speed to 1.4M, or didn't see the need to fly faster.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2017, 13:34
by basher54321
viper12 wrote:So that would suggest he didn't have the luxury to accelerate for 100NM+ from cruise speed to 1.4M, or didn't see the need to fly faster.


Yes the whole thing is not only dependent on the time it takes to accelerate and climb to where you can get to those speeds, but the stores config (and limits), fuel load and the range of the target.

Back in the day F-104G pilots practiced M2.0 intercept profiles - but only practical if catching the target at a certain range - and of course they are starting with full fuel and dropping the tanks leaving only a few AIM-9s.

On a CAP far less likely you would have adequate fuel - or be vectored to a target far enough away to allow you to get to high Mach - or even practical to go to an altitude that allows it.

After an airshow with 3 tanks (see what I did there) - doubt you would have the fuel. :P

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2017, 13:37
by ricnunes
viper12 wrote:One source, coupled with your posting history, work together against you. So learn to post *UNEQUIVOCAL* stuff backed by as many facts and sources as possible.

@ricnunes : You can check the Super Hornet's performance on page 381 (XI-10-15) : https://info.publicintelligence.net/F18-EF-200.pdf


That's exactly the document and info that I was mentioning. Thanks Viper!

However I don't think that the Rafale reaching Mach 1.7 with 3 external fuel tanks is a possibility.
First and judging from all top speed specs from 4th and 4.5th gen fighter aircraft, they are in a clean configuration. So everything points out that the Mach 1.8 top speed spec for the Rafale is in a clean configuration and this as opposed to the F-35 top speed spec of Mach 1.6 which is with a full internal weapons loadout (2x2000lb bombs/JDAMs and 2xAMRAAMs).

With this being said, I don't believe that those Rafale three (3) External Fuel Tanks (even being from the "Supersonic type") plus two (2) Mica AAMs have less drag than two (2) AMRAAMs plus two (2) Sidewinders on the Super Hornet.
So with this being said it doesn't make much sense that two (2) AMRAAMs plus two (2) Sidewinders makes an aircraft "loose" 0.21 of a Mach (from Mach 1.8 to Mach 1.59 in the Super Hornet) while three (3) External "Supersonic" Fuel Tanks plus two (2) Micas AAMs only makes an aircraft "loose" 0.1 of a Mach (from Mach 1.8 to Mach 1.7 in the Rafale).

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2017, 14:43
by spazsinbad
As LIGHTENING is NOT a substitute for LIGHTNING (except in some backward yankee way not relevant to LIGHTNING II. So:

http://www.ross.net/notes/loose.shtml Lose vs Loose [Go be there - or be square]
"A lot of people are mixing up lose and loose. In particular, a lot of people are writing loose when they really mean lose. Here are the definitions of the two words from my Penguin dictionary:.... "

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2017, 15:50
by halloweene
ricnunes wrote:
viper12 wrote:One source, coupled with your posting history, work together against you. So learn to post *UNEQUIVOCAL* stuff backed by as many facts and sources as possible.

@ricnunes : You can check the Super Hornet's performance on page 381 (XI-10-15) : https://info.publicintelligence.net/F18-EF-200.pdf


That's exactly the document and info that I was mentioning. Thanks Viper!

However I don't think that the Rafale reaching Mach 1.7 with 3 external fuel tanks is a possibility.
First and judging from all top speed specs from 4th and 4.5th gen fighter aircraft, they are in a clean configuration. So everything points out that the Mach 1.8 top speed spec for the Rafale is in a clean configuration and this as opposed to the F-35 top speed spec of Mach 1.6 which is with a full internal weapons loadout (2x2000lb bombs/JDAMs and 2xAMRAAMs).

With this being said, I don't believe that those Rafale three (3) External Fuel Tanks (even being from the "Supersonic type") plus two (2) Mica AAMs have less drag than two (2) AMRAAMs plus two (2) Sidewinders on the Super Hornet.
So with this being said it doesn't make much sense that two (2) AMRAAMs plus two (2) Sidewinders makes an aircraft "loose" 0.21 of a Mach (from Mach 1.8 to Mach 1.59 in the Super Hornet) while three (3) External "Supersonic" Fuel Tanks plus two (2) Micas AAMs only makes an aircraft "loose" 0.1 of a Mach (from Mach 1.8 to Mach 1.7 in the Rafale).

(i) no mica , did a mistake about that (and quoted it) but 3 tanks. (ii) copy/paste on Rafael vs F-35 thread? I'll answer there. TY.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2017, 16:32
by viper12
ricnunes wrote:
viper12 wrote:One source, coupled with your posting history, work together against you. So learn to post *UNEQUIVOCAL* stuff backed by as many facts and sources as possible.

@ricnunes : You can check the Super Hornet's performance on page 381 (XI-10-15) : https://info.publicintelligence.net/F18-EF-200.pdf


That's exactly the document and info that I was mentioning. Thanks Viper!

However I don't think that the Rafale reaching Mach 1.7 with 3 external fuel tanks is a possibility.
First and judging from all top speed specs from 4th and 4.5th gen fighter aircraft, they are in a clean configuration. So everything points out that the Mach 1.8 top speed spec for the Rafale is in a clean configuration and this as opposed to the F-35 top speed spec of Mach 1.6 which is with a full internal weapons loadout (2x2000lb bombs/JDAMs and 2xAMRAAMs).

With this being said, I don't believe that those Rafale three (3) External Fuel Tanks (even being from the "Supersonic type") plus two (2) Mica AAMs have less drag than two (2) AMRAAMs plus two (2) Sidewinders on the Super Hornet.
So with this being said it doesn't make much sense that two (2) AMRAAMs plus two (2) Sidewinders makes an aircraft "loose" 0.21 of a Mach (from Mach 1.8 to Mach 1.59 in the Super Hornet) while three (3) External "Supersonic" Fuel Tanks plus two (2) Micas AAMs only makes an aircraft "loose" 0.1 of a Mach (from Mach 1.8 to Mach 1.7 in the Rafale).


The French video, with its terrible edits, shows multiple configurations, but in the worst case, the Rafale carries MICA missiles on the wingtips and semi-recessed against the fuselage ; both locations shall produce very little drag. For comparison purposes, wingtip AIM-9's on the F-16C have a drag index of 4, and wingtip AIM-120B's have the enormous DI of...zero. With 2 wingtip AIM-120B's, 2 AIM-9's on stations 2 and 8, and 2 370-gallon drop tanks (and 2 CFTs as that's how the graphs are done in the HAF F-16C manual), if my math is right, you've got DI=74, so that would put it between the DI=50 and DI=100 graphs, and depending on the gross weight, the top speed would be anywhere between Mach 1.5 and Mach 1.8, but I'd wager 1.6-1.7M with this configuration, which should be close enough to a Rafale with just 3x 1250L external fuel tanks.

For the F-15A/C, the AIM-7F/M has a drag number of 1.8, so that shouldn't be too much ; in fact, the clean F-15A/C with 35,000lb GW and F100-PW-100 engines, engine trim at 97.7% and standard day, reaches a max speed of Mach 2.17 with a 0.03g acceleration margin, Mach 2.24 for the absolute max, both at 36,000ft. With 4 AIM-7Fs, 37,000lb GW and 97.7% engine trim, the maximum thrust curve gives 2.1M and the Vmax thrust curve yields 2.22M, so these semi-recessed Sparrows don't seem to hurt the performance that much, although I'm not sure what is a Vmax thrust curve.

The F/A-18E/F isn't a very good comparison point, since it's known to be quite sluggish in supersonic, the main reason I suppose being the low sweep angle of its wings compared to the ~45° on the F-15, F-16 and Rafale.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2017, 16:40
by mixelflick
From where I'm sitting...

It makes absolutely no sense that a Rafale can maintain Mach 1.7 with external stores, especially 3 mongo drop tanks, plus missiles. Reach Mach 1.7? Maybe, in a dive. But maintain it? No, can't see that at all. It makes all the sense in the world to me that an F-35 with 5,000lbs of INTERNAL stores can reach mach 1.6 and maintain it. That was the design spec, they achieved it and I wouldn't be surprised if it could slightly exceed it. No need to waste $ though, by greatly exceeding a design spec.

And I appreciate that piece showing Rodriguiz's AMRAAM shot at mach 1.4. I'll have to go back and watch it again, but I wonder why he felt the need to go that fast?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2017, 19:36
by ricnunes
viper12 wrote:The French video, with its terrible edits, shows multiple configurations, but in the worst case, the Rafale carries MICA missiles on the wingtips and semi-recessed against the fuselage ; both locations shall produce very little drag. For comparison purposes, wingtip AIM-9's on the F-16C have a drag index of 4, and wingtip AIM-120B's have the enormous DI of...zero. With 2 wingtip AIM-120B's, 2 AIM-9's on stations 2 and 8, and 2 370-gallon drop tanks (and 2 CFTs as that's how the graphs are done in the HAF F-16C manual), if my math is right, you've got DI=74, so that would put it between the DI=50 and DI=100 graphs, and depending on the gross weight, the top speed would be anywhere between Mach 1.5 and Mach 1.8, but I'd wager 1.6-1.7M with this configuration, which should be close enough to a Rafale with just 3x 1250L external fuel tanks.


Yes, your (well documented) F-16 comment/example is very interesting indeed but don't forget that the F-16 max speed clean is Mach 2+ or more precisely Mach 2.05 while the Rafale's maximum speed clean is Mach 1.8
So, with your "similar F-16 configuration" there is a loss of more than 0.2 of a Mach or more than 10% max speed loss regarding the F-16's max speed. But again this is the "best case scenario" of your own scenario, which is the F-16 having a max speed Mach 1.8 in a similar configuration to the Rafale with 3 EFTs.
If the maximum speed is indeed lower (down to Mach 1.5) which you admit than the maximum speed loss is even higher.

So with this in mind there's no way a Rafale would only lose (thanks spazsinbad for the spell check) 0.1 of a Mach or only around 5.5% or more precisely about half or even less (in the not so optimal scenarios) of the F-16's max speed loss.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 00:19
by viper12
Well, the Rafale demonstrator did reach Mach 2, so I dunno why the production versions are slower.

BTW, does anyone know what "engine trim" is in the F-15A/C flight manual ?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 00:36
by jetblast16
DEEC governance of an engine

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 02:02
by castlebravo
viper12 wrote:Well, the Rafale demonstrator did reach Mach 2, so I dunno why the production versions are slower.


Same reasons as the F-35A being a Mach 1.6 fighter would be my guess. If anything, the Rafale proves the point of a fighter's rated top speed being meaningless in practice.

I do question the Rafale's ability to fly at high Mach with a long range strike load out though. While an F-16C with three EFTs could also reach Mach 1.7, that same F-16C with 2x AIM-120, 2x AIM-9, 2x Mk84, a TGP, 2x 370-gal tank, and a 300-gal tank with a DI of 194 is no longer a supersonic fighter.

I would also like to point out that the time difference in trans sonic acceleration (Mach 0.79 to 1.25) for a 0 DI and a 100 DI Blk-52 F-16C is only 35 seconds, which is likely less the trans sonic acceleration difference between the F-35A and the F-35C, and yet the F-35C is still capable of Mach 1.6.

I would wager that the F-35A flight envelope looks a lot like a DI=0 F-16C flight envelope that has been truncated at Mach 1.6.
Image

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 04:30
by 35_aoa
You guys are seriously debating whether a Rafale with 3 drops :shock: can touch mach 1.7? Can a slick Rafale even do that? That's like flying around with the speed brakes half extended. I've been at full grunt above 40k ft in a single centerline block 15 (very light) Viper many times, and at mach 1.6, it felt like the wings were going to vibrate off the jet. If I dove straight down, I might get to 1.7 for a brief moment before I lost the CAS to IMN war going into lower altitudes, but level, not gonna happen. Contrast that with a slick Viper, and you can tickle mach 1.8-1.9 without much effort. There is a pretty massive penalty for any large external store once you get into the mid mach 1.X region.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 04:51
by blindpilot
Can we PLEEEEAASE PLEEEASSE MOVE THIS TO THE "VS RAFALE" THREAD !!!!!!!!!!

NO ONE ON THE AIRSHOW THREAD APPRECIATES THIS KIDNAPPING !!!!!

GO AWAY !!!! TO THE "VS RAFALE" THREAD!!!

PLEASE!!!!!


(that means YOU, the next one who feels they have to correct the last guy and be right! Correct him on the "vs Rafale" thread. Pretty please)

F-35 vs Rafale - Found here >>>>> viewtopic.php?f=55&t=6094&start=540

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 04:58
by blindpilot
Meanwhile back to the air show.

F-35 Aerial Demonstration Debut at 2017 Paris Air Show 19 Jun 2017 LM PR


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 05:24
by 35_aoa
blindpilot wrote:Can we PLEEEEAASE PLEEEASSE MOVE THIS TO THE "VS RAFALE" THREAD !!!!!!!!!!

NO ONE ON THE AIRSHOW THREAD APPRECIATES THIS KIDNAPPING !!!!!

GO AWAY !!!! TO THE "VS RAFALE" THREAD!!!

PLEASE!!!!!


(that means YOU, the next one who feels they have to correct the last guy and be right! Correct him on the "vs Rafale" thread. Pretty please)

F-35 vs Rafale - Found here >>>>> viewtopic.php?f=55&t=6094&start=540


sorry that I ruined your browsing bro. hope you found a safe space

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 05:32
by blindpilot
LOL :D :P, It's the 4th of July and I'm a vet ... no safe places today, the dog's going nuts too. :(

F-35 Aerial Demonstration Debut at 2017 Paris Air Show 19 Jun 2017 LM PR


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 06:31
by 35_aoa
blindpilot wrote:LOL :D :P, It's the 4th of July and I'm a vet ... no safe places today, the dog's going nuts too. :(

F-35 Aerial Demonstration Debut at 2017 Paris Air Show 19 Jun 2017 LM PR



haha my dog just lost his mind, as did the little mini me. Happy 4th

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 12:33
by basher54321
35_aoa wrote: There is a pretty massive penalty for any large external store once you get into the mid mach 1.X region.



To break John Will (tm) limits you need a Viper with more thrust. :P

Unfortunately, I've seen Mach 1.86 in a Viper with a centerline bag. It's unfortunate because the tank limit was 1.6 Mach. Oops - it cost me some beer too.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=12707&p=157166&hilit=with+a+centerline+tank#p157166





blindpilot wrote:
F-35 Aerial Demonstration Debut at 2017 Paris Air Show 19 Jun 2017 LM PR


Around 3:25 still my fave!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 15:27
by gta4
Look at how it loops near 270 deg in 9 seconds.
Look at the initial pitch rate at the first second.
9s 270 deg.png


Video:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 20:19
by ricnunes
viper12 wrote:Well, the Rafale demonstrator did reach Mach 2, so I dunno why the production versions are slower.



Since I don't wish to hijack this thread anymore so I'm going to reply you here (we can follow the conversation from there, if you wish):

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=6094&p=371052#p371052

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Jul 2017, 01:27
by 35_aoa
basher54321 wrote:
35_aoa wrote: There is a pretty massive penalty for any large external store once you get into the mid mach 1.X region.



To break John Will (tm) limits you need a Viper with more thrust. :P

Unfortunately, I've seen Mach 1.86 in a Viper with a centerline bag. It's unfortunate because the tank limit was 1.6 Mach. Oops - it cost me some beer too.


Haha nice, that's pretty impressive. I will say the only times I ever flew a viper with a centerline was in the -B, which probably has a bit more canopy induced parasite drag than a single seat. I could see a big mouth C powering through.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Jul 2017, 20:19
by spazsinbad
F-35 Turns and Burns in Paris [2 page PDF attached]
Aug 2017 Jamie Hunter

"...Recent advances
When Gunn first started flying the F-35 he was limited to 3g. He said an F-15C was an even match at that time, adding that back then he and his colleagues were still learning how to fly the airplane. Around three months ago, he flew against an F-16 flown by a very experienced Weapons School graduate pilot in a WVR scenario. He commented that the performance had improved so much that the F-16 pilot asked, ‘what have they done to your jet?’ Gunn retorted: ‘They really haven’t done anything to it. The difference is, we’ve learned. We’ve learned how to fly the jet — where it’s advantaged or not advantaged’. Asked if he can win in a dogfight now, Gunn said: ‘Without a doubt.’

While it was good to see the F-35 being put through its paces in a full-up aerobatic routine, it’s worth noting that there was nothing here that hasn’t been seen in displays by other aircraft. The performance generally resembled that of a heavier fourth- or even third-generation fighter, with a lot of afterburner used, but with a few impressive elements. The jet clearly has a decent pitch rate and some ability to maneuver post-stall, but it’s no Raptor, nor a ‘Flanker’ for that matter.

Judging by the comments made, it would seem that F-35 pilots are flying the jet much like F/A-18 Hornet pilots fly a BFM fight, getting slow and using pitch rate to bring weapons to bear. To be fair, it’s a tactic that pilots flying ‘rate fighters’ regularly reference as being difficult to counter. Combining this with its impressive sensors and stealth characteristics mean that as a package, the jet is impressive — just not worthy of the ‘Hollywood’ hype surrounding this generally unremarkable display debut."

Source: Combat Aircraft Magazine August 2017 Vol 18 No 8

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Jul 2017, 20:30
by geforcerfx
new york airshow, has the heritage flight as well as a F-16CJ demo in it.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 01:34
by smsgtmac
spazsinbad wrote:
F-35 Turns and Burns in Paris
Aug 2017 Jamie Hunter

"...Recent advances

...While it was good to see the F-35 being put through its paces in a full-up aerobatic routine, it’s worth noting that there was nothing here that hasn’t been seen in displays by other aircraft. The performance generally resembled that of a heavier fourth- or even third-generation fighter, with a lot of afterburner used, but with a few impressive elements. The jet clearly has a decent pitch rate and some ability to maneuver post-stall, but it’s no Raptor, nor a ‘Flanker’ for that matter.

Judging by the comments made, it would seem that F-35 pilots are flying the jet much like F/A-18 Hornet pilots fly a BFM fight, getting slow and using pitch rate to bring weapons to bear. To be fair, it’s a tactic that pilots flying ‘rate fighters’ regularly reference as being difficult to counter. Combining this with its impressive sensors and stealth characteristics mean that as a package, the jet is impressive — just not worthy of the ‘Hollywood’ hype surrounding this generally unremarkable display debut."

Source: Combat Aircraft Magazine August 2017 Vol 18 No 8


So...in other words the F-35A was shown to fly exactly as it was intended to fly and performed as advertised in an 'airshow environment' and at an 'operational weight'. That was how it was chosen to perform in a low-level show at airshow airspeeds.

The only 'Hollywood' hype I've heard has come from the usual schmucks post-facto as they try to move the goalposts.

Who is this guy anyway? This piece comes on the heels of his storytelling surrounding the incomplete info out there on the Fitter shoot-down. In his articles, his riff vacillates between sounding like the local ready-room know-it-all on the one hand and 15 year-old interweb gamer boy on the other.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 02:56
by popcorn
Jamie Hunter... currently Editor, Combat Aircraft, KeyPubs
http://www.lifeforcemagazine.com/may2013/index_17.htm

Jamie Hunter is one of a handful of photographers that specialize in the world of airborne aviation photography. Most of Hunter's time spent behind the lens is in the cockpit of a fast jet fighter. As someone that always dreamed of becoming a fighter pilot in the Royal Air Force, Jamie Hunter undertook an RAF Flying Scholarship at the age of just 17. But ultimately his career path led him to the cockpits of a variety of fighter aircraft, not as a pilot, but as a passenger - specialising in capturing dynamic images of aircraft in flight.Having been inspired by pioneering aviation photographer Charles E. Brown and Japanese aviation photographer Katsuhiko Tokunaga, Jamie saw the potential for flying in aircraft in order to capture media and marketing images.Today, he has notched up over 200 flying hours in fighter jets, flying with the Royal Air Force, US Air Force, Royal Saudi Air Force, German and Norwegian Air Forces and has flown in more aircraft types than many of his former RAF pilot training.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 04:15
by spazsinbad
'FLOWN IN' that is so KEWL: "...[Hunter] has flown in more aircraft types than many of his former RAF pilot training..."

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 18:30
by halloweene
Remind me of Pete Collins (aka Mr "flown that")

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 08:33
by geforcerfx








Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 13:08
by halloweene
Very interesting movie about Flight test safety workshop and F-35 (TY S. Trimble)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B30EHg ... FPOTQ/view

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 15:53
by SpudmanWP
Uploaded to YouTube for ease of use & compatibility



Here are some animated gifs shamelessly swiped from:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/12 ... st-dangers

Nighttime landing as seen from the pilot's HMDS. IIR feed is from the HMDS's own helmet cam and not EODAS. The "square" display that appears when the pilot looks forward is the other "in-cockpit" IIR camera (FCAM) located on the "dashboard" forward of the main display panel.

Image

Same approach but without the CAM.

Image

Daytime aerial refuel seen from the HMDS cam.

Image

Image

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 16:21
by steve2267
I searched a bit for a "Flight Test" thread, but came up empty.

I suggest we move the disucssion for the inevitable flight test discussion to either a new "Flight Test" thread, or to a more apropos thread, lest this Airshow thread go on for a few pages on a topic that is NOT-airshow related.

A terrific video BTW.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 16:29
by spazsinbad
I guess it is too late to change however there is 'test' in this F-35 forum subsection as indicated:

"F-35 milestones viewforum.php?f=57
Production milestones, roll-outs, test flights, service introduction and other milestones."

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 16:35
by steve2267
Spaz, I saw that -- but it seemed to me that it was more milestone oriented rather than discussion-of-test-results oriented. As I am newer around here, I thought I better ask / suggest rather then choose. FWIW.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 16:37
by spazsinbad
'StevieWonder' I do not think anyone takes any notice of anything in this forum, so have at it, your post will be duplicated.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 20:13
by steve2267
spazsinbad wrote:'StevieWonder' I do not think anyone takes any notice of anything in this forum, so have at it, your post will be duplicated.


:doh: :bang:

I don't have a lot to add at this point. I just thought flight test, esp. discussion / forums (e.g. presentations) / videos etc warranted their own thread.

:mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 22:41
by spazsinbad
Yeah but... what's in a name? MILESTONE - ignore it and test away in the test forum - I do and most everyone else.

It is VERY interesting to NOW see a pilot view from inside the F-35. Let us hope we see more. Early on the canopy bow was flagged as problematic by test pilots for ARF (air refueling). The view reminds me of that seen from inside an A-4. FlightSims NEVER get it right. In real world one quickly 'sees through' any obstruction such as all the metalwork in an A-4.

How is that done? The brain/eye combo compensates and I'll guess one moves one's head slightly to build the overall view.

The JPG is distorted by the camera lens/angle so I'll post a NATOPS graphic also.... The view on the left side of the metalwork was excellent for carrier landings as I recall.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2017, 01:26
by jetblast16
I just watched the F-35A's display again at Paris. Impressive... The minimum radius turn it performed was extremely tight, so tight in fact, I'm beginning to wonder if either the Typhoon or Rafale could beat it.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2017, 03:42
by geforcerfx
jetblast16 wrote:I just watched the F-35A's display again at Paris. Impressive... The minimum radius turn it performed was extremely tight, so tight in fact, I'm beginning to wonder if either the Typhoon or Rafale could beat it.


The F-35A is doing 19-21 second minrads, the F-16 demo does a 18-20 second one, the F-22 is usually 20 sec, the typhoon and the rafale are both 18-20 seconds as well. The F-15 is usually 22-24 and the Super Hornet is 24-28 seconds, the F-35b has been 26-35 seconds on min rad during performances. Essentially all modern aircraft are in the same ballpark, well at least down low :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2017, 03:46
by geforcerfx
Probably the best video I have seen from Paris, Camera was in a great position and very well handled, you get a much better sense of the energy the F-35 had during the routine.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2017, 04:58
by lbk000
geforcerfx wrote:Probably the best video I have seen from Paris, Camera was in a great position and very well handled, you get a much better sense of the energy the F-35 had during the routine.

looking at the vapor at the beginning plus the incomplete pedal turn this is almost certainly this one particular validation flight [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeqryYh_yw0]

i can't get enough of it, it was by far imo the finest run of the entire event.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2017, 05:29
by thepointblank
Just got this e-mail from the Abbotsford Air Show:

http://mailchi.mp/abbotsfordairshow/jet ... 8a472fb24b

Not only will there be USAF F-35A's, both in static and in aerial demonstration, a Dutch F-35A will also join the party.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2017, 00:15
by geforcerfx
Step 1. let Billie Flynn fly the F-35
Step 2. give the F-35 display an extra 3-5 min
Step 3. Profit.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2017, 18:03
by doge
Vortex@@
20506991_10155830806927345_673290203825031147_o.jpg

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2017, 20:35
by geforcerfx


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Aug 2017, 01:49
by spazsinbad
Prolly info about this airshow in Canaduckduckduckian thread but - Dutch Fingers in Dyke of 'F-35 for Canada Stonewall'!
Dutch and U.S. F-35s to appear at Abbotsford International Air Show
08 Aug 2017 David Pugliese

"Those attending the Abbotsford International Air Show in British Columbia this weekend will be able to see a number of F-35s on display. The Royal Netherlands Air Force is sending two F-35s, which will be on static display, according to show organizers. A USAF F-35 will fly in what is being called the Heritage Flight. The Heritage Flight will include the P-51, F35, F-16 and F-86 Sabre...."

Source: http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/ ... l-air-show

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 22:41
by doge
@Paris Vortex@@@
F-35Vortex1.jpg
F-35Vortex2.jpg

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 05:18
by XanderCrews

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 05:30
by lbk000
holy shiiiiiittttt

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 12:05
by sferrin

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 13:14
by krorvik
"Don't forget your earplugs....

... and safety goggles."

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 15:08
by mixelflick
sferrin wrote:


Can't run, can't turn, can't climb... :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2017, 01:51
by ricnunes
mixelflick wrote:
sferrin wrote:


Can't run, can't turn, can't climb... :mrgreen:



HOLLY COW!! :shock:

I wonder if those douchebags at bestfighterforcanada still say that the F-35 can't maneuver or that douchebag PM of Canada still says that the "F-35 still doesn't work" :wink:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2017, 22:58
by playloud
ricnunes wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
sferrin wrote:


Can't run, can't turn, can't climb... :mrgreen:



HOLLY COW!! :shock:

I wonder if those douchebags at bestfighterforcanada still say that the F-35 can't maneuver or that douchebag PM of Canada still says that the "F-35 still doesn't work" :wink:

Yes to the former.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2017, 15:55
by ricnunes
playloud wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
Can't run, can't turn, can't climb... :mrgreen:



HOLLY COW!! :shock:

I wonder if those douchebags at bestfighterforcanada still say that the F-35 can't maneuver or that douchebag PM of Canada still says that the "F-35 still doesn't work" :wink:


Yes to the former.


Yes indeed.
Actually that was more a rhetorical question than a question itself :wink: :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 13:48
by halloweene
So what? Sorry, but noone ever denied F-15 had a powerful engine. .. Others too... https://youtu.be/ykYkyN6nwzw?t=101.
I guess Typhoon or F15 could do even better.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 22:25
by halloweene
Edited to F-15. Last time you insult me without report of several posts. Loud and Clear? No commetn about the video? It was only intended to show that other planes can do the same.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 22:34
by botsing
halloweene wrote:No commetn about the video? It was only intended to show that other planes can do the same.

You missed the whole point.

This is not about other planes that can climb, this is about people who claimed that the F-35 couldn't climb and that they are shown to be wrong on that assertion.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 22:40
by halloweene
botsing wrote:
halloweene wrote:No commetn about the video? It was only intended to show that other planes can do the same.

You missed the whole point.

This is not about other planes that can climb, this is about people who claimed that the F-35 couldn't climb and that they are shown to be wrong on that assertion.


Ok. Fair answer.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2017, 15:41
by ricnunes
halloweene wrote:Edited to F-15. Last time you insult me without report of several posts. Loud and Clear? No commetn about the video? It was only intended to show that other planes can do the same.


Go on, feel free to report me! And I'll report all your trolling here as well! LOUD AND CLEAR??

Unless you stop trolling you can bet that I'll continue to expose you using all possible ways!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2017, 17:01
by blindpilot
halloweene wrote:
botsing wrote:
halloweene wrote:No commetn about the video? It was only intended to show that other planes can do the same.

You missed the whole point.

This is not about other planes that can climb, this is about people who claimed that the F-35 couldn't climb and that they are shown to be wrong on that assertion.


Ok. Fair answer.


Halloweene, a great deal of the conflicting opinions/facts on this thread seem to have to do with your inability to grasp a basic reality.

When the technology of war transitioned from spear and bow to musket and rifle, there were many arguments that eventually showed themselves to be worthless. The spear was better balanced for thrusting, the long bow had greater range to reach formations in line. It was interesting to note that a bayonet on rifle was "still" an excellent arms length thrusting weapon, as much as a spear. It was interesting to note that the rifle had decent range and accuracy at distance. BUT the reality was no one stood in line with bright red coats any more. After getting destroyed, units hid behind rocks, cover, and dug trenches. Neither bow nor even slow rate of fire muskets applied any more to troops in a trench. As infantry combat has evolved, troops now rarely "fix bayonets" any more, although they carry utility knives of sorts. Strapping a single shot shotgun barrel on a spear, or attaching explosives to the bow's arrow does not a rifle nor cannon make, and changed nothing in this dynamic. Those arguments are worthless.

So as we debate whether the F-35 can do close in maneuver combat, this is worth keeping in mind. The Paris Air Show demonstrated that the "Bayonet on the end of the rifle," on the F-35 was every bit as deadly as other "spears." But frankly it's a useless discussion. And this distinction is not just "BVR" missile capabilities. The SA advantage in the true 5th gen fighters (F-22/35) is far more critical. In our analogy, the F-35 can have no missiles, no guns, no modern weapon. But because of the SA advantage, it can "walk up behind from an advantageous approach," and "stab the adversary in the back with an ice pick."

Fact: the F-35 is as, or more, maneuverable than 4th ?+? gen fighters like the Rafale. Fact: the Sensor fusion SA in the F-35 is a totally new integration package beyond 4th ?+? gen fighters' cabled together iPads like Rafale systems. Fact: every argument you've brought is meaningless to the reality of these things.

Now you seem to have different opinions on these facts, so ... My questions for you.

What experience do you have in military aviation? What military aircraft have you flown? What systems have you integrated? What billion dollar programs have you managed? What strategies and tactics have you developed and implemented in actual war? How many combat hours do you have in the air or on the ground? Where do you get your opinions from, on a first hand basis?

This would help me process your posts.

MHO,
BP

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2017, 16:22
by halloweene
answered you (at least partially) in PM.
cabled together iPads like Rafale systems
isn't that a bit short sighted and patronizing? Do you know how Rafale systems are organized around the "MDPU" (modular data processing unit)? That every systems are virtualized for simpler upgrading etc? Anyway, i thought this thread was about F-35 performance in airshows? (which was nice on certain points, not so nice on others). I simply pointed that many other planes like F-22, SU 35, Rafale, EFA, F-15 would certainly be able to climb spectacularly like that.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2017, 18:22
by blindpilot
halloweene wrote:answered you (at least partially) in PM. ...


Thank you for that effort, but the reply to photobucket displays nothing, as I noted in my PM.
This is all we see on those replies.
photobktupdt.jpg

Which tells us nothing.

As to the patronizing. It is not meant that way. How do you tell someone what an iPhone is when they insist that their Garmin, Nikon, and Motorola flip phone do the same things? An iPhone is not a Garmin+flip phone+camera+iPod.

What the air show demonstrated was that the F-35 performs as well or better than other fighters ... IF THAT MATTERED .. which it really doesn't!! As has been noted, the airshow was to put to set aside those meaningless accusations, so the conversation could focus on what does matter, what "VLO+integrated SA" truly means. It is where 1+1=2 suddenly changes to 1+1= 100, in the same way that has happened with smart phones. Saying one has "1+1" just like the other "1+1" does not make 2 = 100.

This reminds me of how the Blackberry folks kept complaining that they were better than the iPhone .... except despite technical advantages here and there, they simply weren't better in so many ways... but they never could see that, and probably still don't understand how they lost the market. One can not know, what they do not know.

This is why I ask you "where are you coming from?" It helps frame answers, and discussions.

BP

PS. The type of answer/insight I'm seeking would be: My systems integration background is in AI/robotics and distributed network systems for customers like GE, Verizon, USAF, US Army, joint service and multinational defense systems, as well as industrial factory production robotics. That's where I am coming from technically. Program management and worldwide deployment as a USAF pilot is just in addition to that... and ... oh yeah .. I have actually been to a foreign airshow as a participant, (USAF pilot for flyby and static display) ... I forgot about that .. LOL .. I'm gettin' old. :) That's the type answer I was looking for instead of a photobucket error msg.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2017, 19:57
by blindpilot
halloweene wrote:... Do you know how Rafale systems are organized around the "MDPU" (modular data processing unit)? That every systems are virtualized for simpler upgrading etc? ...


Okay, Let's use that question to get us focused on the discussion. Have I contracted with Dassault on a secret software project for the Rafale? No.

But since before the Rafale, ... even the Mirage 2000 ... was a glint in it's mother's eyes, I was working with PLC's using ladder logic, forward to the original 1993 version of IEC 61131-3, etc. I have worked on hardware from at chip level design, and hand soldering prototype boards, .. on software from ALGOL(remember that?) to C++, (and everything in between including authoring commercially successful programs) I built and supported modular multiprocessing systems for customers on the Chicago Board Options Exchange(CBOE) in the '80's, and worked in the early '90's on the first efforts at "system virtualization" for a major manufacturer. Later, I was a program manager for a prototype US Army Urban Combat Training robotic system. So I do recognize concept implementations from the descriptive characterizations. etc. etc. While now retired, that experience is still well into the Rafale design time frames.

Now of value would be ... do you know how the Rafale systems are organized, beyond the colored brochures, and can you describe these with a non classified description, for us to compare?

If so, then I could answer, "Way cool! So do you know if that means it could ... ?" and we could have a discussion of value. If not I can tailor my responses at a level that would still be of value.

BP

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2017, 20:14
by SpudmanWP
halloweene wrote:... Do you know how Rafale systems are organized around the "MDPU" (modular data processing unit)? That every systems are virtualized for simpler upgrading etc? ...


The F-35's avionics is also wrapped in VMs and Middleware. This is one of the reasons why you can work on multiple Blocks at the same time and why Block 3i was just Block 2B hosted on newer hardware that required updated Middleware without rewriting the actual avionics code.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2017, 20:26
by blindpilot
For others.

halloweene replied to me PM with a basic overview of where he's coming from. I appreciate this and that will help my replies.

To the thread, as Gums reminded Steve and I yesterday, one of the impressive things about the F-35 air show was the square loop. That is not lightly accomplished with a "pig" aircraft. F-16's have crashed doing those. The pedal turn etc. were pretty impressive as well. This was a good display in a very tight air show box.

All of this is to reaffirm that the F-35 is a highly maneuverable fighter in its own right, and eye watering at some corners of the envelope. That is a sufficient reply for halloweene and others with similar backgrounds. As almost always, measuring turn rates on a video is of no value here, and speculative at best.

MHO,
BP

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2017, 13:58
by doge
I collected videos so far.
Hope this helps...




I want to see Block3F air show early! :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2017, 02:45
by spazsinbad
F-35A to join F-22 at Seoul ADEX
19 Sep 2017 ALERT5

"Media outlets in South Korea are reporting that the Pentagon will dispatch the F-35A to Asia Pacific for the first time and the conventional takeoff and landing variant will join the F-22 at Seoul International Aerospace & Defense Exhibition, or Seoul ADEX. The show starts on Oct. 17 and runs for six-days."

Source: http://alert5.com/2017/09/20/f-35a-to-j ... eoul-adex/

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Sep 2017, 00:58
by jetblast16
I know, I know, it's not the F-35, but check this out! This Swiss -18 mimics an F-22 and F-35 in high alpha!


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Sep 2017, 03:18
by sferrin
That's pretty friggin' sweet. :thumb:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Sep 2017, 06:59
by hornetfinn
Thank you jetblast16 for that, even though it's not F-35... That was really incredible Hornet display and the surroundings was equally stunning (those Alps). That camera angle was really great as usually airshows are recorded much lower than that. I loved the high speed level flight to vertical climb at the end (at about 5:40 or so).

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Sep 2017, 08:09
by wrightwing
The cool thing is that the F-35 is capable of an even more impressive performance, than that F-18 pulled off.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Sep 2017, 12:20
by cavok
Sion in low motion camera (F-35 did not come)

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A ... wKtqlGCXlE

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Sep 2017, 14:45
by spazsinbad
London, Ontario, Canada Airshow this weekend 22-24 Sep 2017 :
AIRSHOW LONDON Scores Hat-Trick With World’s Top Jet Fighters
14 Sep 2017 PR

"AIRSHOW LONDON today announced another ‘first’ for Canada and an unbelievable feather in the show’s cap. The US Navy VFA-101 Grim Reapers has confirmed the appearance of the F-35C Lightning II. This adds to a show already packed with heavy hitters, and places London at the top end of events in North America.

Gerry Vanderhoek, Air Operations Director, says his team has been working with the US Navy for a number of months in an effort to bring the aircraft to London. He adds, “We received word this morning that the F-35C Lightning II was confirmed. This is an incredible aircraft and London will now be showcasing not only the US Air Force’s F-35A Lightning II as a performer [USAF ACC Demo F35 Heritage Flight w/ P51 Mustang] but also the US Navy’s F-35C Lightning II and the amazing US Air Force’s F-22 Raptor as static displays. We are extremely proud and honoured to have these aircraft brace the skies over London next week as they “Made it Their Mission” to come to our show.”..."

Source: http://airshowlondon.com/news/airshow-l ... -fighters/

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 23 Sep 2017, 11:28
by geforcerfx

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 02:55
by white_lightning35
:twisted: > still repeating the memes about the f-35 costs

> still spewing more BS than a cow that had too much taco bell

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 04:24
by terrygedran
botsing wrote:
halloweene wrote:No commetn about the video? It was only intended to show that other planes can do the same.

You missed the whole point.

This is not about other planes that can climb, this is about people who claimed that the F-35 couldn't climb and that they are shown to be wrong on that assertion.


You call "this" good climb ?
If you wanted to say that he was capable of it at all then I agree.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 10:03
by mk82
terrygedran wrote:Very impressive geforcerfx, very ..... sarcasm off


Certainly more impressive than your bloody lame ar*e meme 8)

Geforcerfx's video shows that the F35 has a Sierra Hotel ITR even in Block 3i guise. Enough to put 25mm APEX rounds on a Flanker or whatever favorite aircraft you w**k off to :roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 10:45
by juretrn
Where are those IP bans when you need them?
Anyway, if you, terry/wewuz, can post stupid memes, so can I:

this is you typing away at your keyboard making your moronic "posts" on this forum:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 13:19
by white_lightning35
I heard that the c variant is at the airshow london, and would be very happy to see a video of it doing some cool stuff. I was thinking about its differences from the A variant. The A has better acceleration, but the C has better turning ability, so I wonder which would make a better airshow performer? Would there be a noticeable difference? I always was curious about the C's ability to recover energy, which was one of the more impressive aspects of the A's performances. It supposedly has much worse transonic acceleration, but I don't know the difference at airshow speeds.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 14:29
by geforcerfx
C variant and the F-22 are static displays.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 14:53
by white_lightning35
Image

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 16:17
by ricnunes
white_lightning35 wrote:I heard that the c variant is at the airshow london, and would be very happy to see a video of it doing some cool stuff. I was thinking about its differences from the A variant. The A has better acceleration, but the C has better turning ability, so I wonder which would make a better airshow performer? Would there be a noticeable difference? I always was curious about the C's ability to recover energy, which was one of the more impressive aspects of the A's performances. It supposedly has much worse transonic acceleration, but I don't know the difference at airshow speeds.


I'm also curious to know how the -C will perform on an airshow.

Looking at the document below:
Image

The t̶r̶a̶n̶s̶o̶n̶i̶c̶ subsonic acceleration from Mach 0.6 to Mach 0.95 is 17.9 seconds for the F-35A with a tactical loadout while the F-35C is 21 seconds also with a tactical loadout.
To be honest I don't know if a difference of 3.1 seconds (from the F-35A to F-35C) in t̶r̶a̶n̶s̶o̶n̶i̶c subsonic acceleration from Mach 0.6 to Mach 0.95 is sufficient to declare that the F-35C has a "much worse" t̶r̶a̶n̶s̶o̶n̶i̶c subsonic acceleration compared to the F-35A but personally I don't think so.
Also on the other hand the F-35C carries considerably more fuel than the F-35A with a 19,625 lb of internal maximum fuel for the F-35C and 18,500 lb for the F-35A - There's a difference of 1,125 lb between both variants in terms of internal fuel.

Perhaps the F-35C acceleration improves a bit by having a lower or same fuel loadout of the F-35A?

Obviously the F-35A will always be a better performer than the F-35C in terms of acceleration/energy.

Anyway and personally where the F-35C wins is in the "looks department". In my opinion the bigger wings make it not only a more aesthetically pleasing aircraft but eliminates the "weird looks" that the F-35A and F-35B have in some side angles due to the "sensation" of having "very short wings".

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 17:14
by white_lightning35
I do like the look of the C a lot, although sometimes its wings look almost too big. I always thought the A and B models looked funny from some angles, too, almost like rockets without wings. Speaking of kinematics, I hope the C has at least somewhat comparable acceleration to the others, and can make up for its inferior speed by doing some sweet turns and high-alpha maneuvers.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 17:35
by viper12
ricnunes wrote:Looking at the document below:
Image

The transonic acceleration from Mach 0.6 to Mach 0.95 is 17.9 seconds for the F-35A with a tactical loadout while the F-35C is 21 seconds also with a tactical loadout.


Norsk ? Til Valhall ! :devil:

Back to the acceleration times ; I would say these values are really impressive. If one takes the Greek F-16C Block 52+ as a benchmark (Don't forget it has CFTs, so it's slightly draggier than normal F-16C's)., when configured with 2 370-gal external fuel tanks, it should have a drag index of 58 and a gross weight of 33,174lb (no fuel in the CFT's). Since this manual doesn't have values at 15,000ft, you can compare the acceleration times between roughly the same speeds at 10,000 and 20,000ft. With DI=50, this F-16C takes 19 seconds to accelerate between Mach 0.63 and Mach 0.97 at GW=32,000lb and 10,000ft, and 23 seconds between Mach 0.65 and Mach 0.95 at 20,000ft.

Now imagine this plane in a tactical configuration, which would be adding at least 2 AIM-120's and 2 Mk84's. This pushes the gross weight to 38,358lb and the drag index to 106. With a GW=36,000lb and DI=100, this F-16C now takes 23 seconds at 10,000ft and 28 seconds at 20,000ft.

So the F-35, in all variants, has a noticeably faster acceleration than a tactically configured F-16C, and I didn't even include the targeting pod, the ECM pod and the slightly higher drag and weight of guided bombs.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 18:02
by ricnunes
viper12 wrote:Norsk ? Til Valhall ! :devil:


Não percebo o que dizes :mrgreen:


viper12 wrote:Back to the acceleration times ; I would say these values are really impressive. If one takes the Greek F-16C Block 52+ as a benchmark (Don't forget it has CFTs, so it's slightly draggier than normal F-16C's)., when configured with 2 370-gal external fuel tanks, it should have a drag index of 58 and a gross weight of 33,174lb (no fuel in the CFT's). Since this manual doesn't have values at 15,000ft, you can compare the acceleration times between roughly the same speeds at 10,000 and 20,000ft. With DI=50, this F-16C takes 19 seconds to accelerate between Mach 0.63 and Mach 0.97 at GW=32,000lb and 10,000ft, and 23 seconds between Mach 0.65 and Mach 0.95 at 20,000ft.

Now imagine this plane in a tactical configuration, which would be adding at least 2 AIM-120's and 2 Mk84's. This pushes the gross weight to 38,358lb and the drag index to 106. With a GW=36,000lb and DI=100, this F-16C now takes 23 seconds at 10,000ft and 28 seconds at 20,000ft.

So the F-35, in all variants, has a noticeably faster acceleration than a tactically configured F-16C, and I didn't even include the targeting pod, the ECM pod and the slightly higher drag and weight of guided bombs.


Thanks for the info Viper. :D
It definitely confirms that the F-35C acceleration while being obviously slower than the F-35A it isn't actually that bad compared to other fighter aircraft. Actually it's not bad at all and it's even better than a F-16C Block 52 with CFTs specially when the later is equipped with a similar tactical loadout (2xAMRAAMs plus 2x2000lb Air-to-ground ordinance).

Oh and also thanks for the document - The Supplemental FLIGHT MANUAL for the Hellenic Air Force F-16C Block 52. :wink:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 20:24
by basher54321
ricnunes wrote:
The transonic acceleration from Mach 0.6 to Mach 0.95 is 17.9 seconds for the F-35A with a tactical loadout while the F-35C is 21 seconds also with a tactical loadout.
To be honest I don't know if a difference of 3.1 seconds (from the F-35A to F-35C) in transonic acceleration from Mach 0.6 to Mach 0.95 is sufficient to declare that the F-35C has a "much worse" transonic acceleration compared to the F-35A but personally I don't think so.
Also on the other hand the F-35C carries considerably more fuel than the F-35A with a 19,625 lb of internal maximum fuel for the F-35C and 18,500 lb for the F-35A - There's a difference of 1,125 lb between both variants in terms of internal fuel.



Transonic acceleration is usually M0.8 to M1.2 and is significantly different to subsonic acceleration due to the massive drag rise as you approach and go through the sound barrier.

A few years back the thresholds being worked to were published by the DOTE when there was a performance revision and there was literally about 45 seconds difference between the A and C.
The C is about 5000 lbs heavier (with the same engine) to start with due to having to survive thousands of hours of carrier ops, and is likely more draggy because of the bigger wings.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 20:44
by ricnunes
basher54321 wrote:Transonic acceleration is usually M0.8 to M1.2 and is significantly different to subsonic acceleration due to the massive drag rise as you approach and go through the sound barrier.

A few years back the thresholds being worked to were published by the DOTE when there was a performance revision and there was literally about 45 seconds difference between the A and C.
The C is about 5000 lbs heavier (with the same engine) to start with due to having to survive thousands of hours of carrier ops, and is likely more draggy because of the bigger wings.


Yes, you're right! It's Subsonic acceleration and not Transonic and the (Norwegian) document that I shared clearly states that. It was a typo since I actually and honestly meant Subsonic instead of Transonic (I don't know where or what was I thinking of) but thanks for the correction!

I will correct my mistake above but I stand corrected.

Anyway, the difference in Subsonic (not Transonic) acceleration between the -A and -C variants seems to be small which is the acceleration regime which mostly affects aircraft during an airshow.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 21:22
by spazsinbad
Over here in recent podcast Billie Flynn says his Paris F-35A Demo took a 2,000 foot takeoff roll into that vertical climb:

viewtopic.php?f=22&p=377003#p377003 (quote at minute 15 of podcast)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 21:29
by jetblast16

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2017, 21:42
by spazsinbad
Thanks - good to see an F-35B SLOW LANDING for once (rather than conventional).

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2017, 06:28
by geforcerfx
F-35B routine shows more confidence in the aircraft compared to the flights from 2014 and 2015. They turn it harder, show more vertical and generally seem more comfortable flying the aircraft in that setting.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2017, 06:56
by spazsinbad
You may note that Billie Flynn in recent podcast here: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=53473 describes his F-35 group of support people. This is what it takes for a REAL airshow. Usually (until there is a dedicated F-35 airshow team) will have ordinary pilots with ordinary less than 3F aircraft carrying out routines devised for their spare time. The aircraft is not yet FOC - there are not enough spare pilots or aircraft for specialized airshows. The exception was the Paris Air Show that ALMOST did not happen but it eventually did courtesy of those named. Air shows kill unprepared pilots with under prepared routines and not enough practice. Who knows what killed an Italian Test Pilot at an Italian Air Show in an Italian Typhoon recently. Pilots / Aircraft unprepared without enough practice is never a good idea.

Eurofighter crashes in Italy Airshow 25 Sep 2017 viewtopic.php?f=36&t=53474

So it is actually gratifying to hear / see pilots at airshows telling us how it is. Crawl, Walk Upright - do an airshow routine when they are prepared. Otherwise we see well prepared displays at venues that so far have proved safe - good on them.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2017, 05:48
by Dragon029
Some nice vapour with the F-35's performance at the 2017 Huntington Beach Air Show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWOwK_CPyM4

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2017, 07:39
by doge
Dragon029 wrote:Some nice vapour with the F-35's performance at the 2017 Huntington Beach Air Show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWOwK_CPyM4

It's looks like nose pointing quickly and impressive vortex!@@@

I collected the videos again.



Discover vortex photos of Huntington Beach AirShow!
F-35A Huntington Beach AirShow2017.jpg

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2017, 11:05
by juretrn
The turn at 2:40 :notworthy: wow.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2017, 15:43
by Robyjet56
spazsinbad wrote:Air shows kill unprepared pilots with under prepared routines and not enough practice. Who knows what killed an Italian Test Pilot at an Italian Air Show in an Italian Typhoon recently. Pilots / Aircraft unprepared without enough practice is never a good idea.


Where did you read of unprepared pilot with unprepared routines and not enough practice regarding AM Typhoon crash?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2017, 17:13
by steve2267
Robyjet56 wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Air shows kill unprepared pilots with under prepared routines and not enough practice. Who knows what killed an Italian Test Pilot at an Italian Air Show in an Italian Typhoon recently. Pilots / Aircraft unprepared without enough practice is never a good idea.


Where did you read of unprepared pilot with unprepared routines and not enough practice regarding AM Typhoon crash?


For what it's worth, I did not read into Spaz' comments that he knew for a fact or had heard from anyone that the Typhoon pilot was unprepared. Rather, I read Spaz' comments to mean that, as a formal nasal avaiator, Spaz knows how dangerous airshow routines can be, and that to not be 110% prepared, can lead to crashes and needless airshow pilot deaths. I also took his comments to imply that analysis of past airshow crashes may have shown that the pilot may have been rushed in preparing a routine, or, for whatever reason, may not have been 110% ready for the routine (or some small detail may have been overlooked.)

So what I took away from Spaz' comments is that airshow routines are inherently dangerous and one needs to prepare assiduously for them.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 00:32
by sferrin

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 00:40
by spazsinbad
:mrgreen: :devil: I don't care if I never see the F-35A in Oz but I sure want to - up close - HEAR IT! BURNER on - GO! :devil: :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 01:03
by jetblast16


Although not at an airshow, the quality of the sound recording really allows a viewer to appreciate--gauge--the throaty, crackling, thunderous noise of a Pratt & Whitney F135...in full dry thrust :shock:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 01:27
by spazsinbad
Thanks. The place to be is in the LSO position on a CVN for touch and goes CarQual for that HOWL (if they go into burner).

There is a video from opposite LSOs (stbd side) with great sound of the howl but cannot find it for moment so - land T/O.


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 02:35
by quicksilver
There's a video somewhere around from F-35C DT-1 (with audio) during the launch sequence on stbd side cat forward -- that's worthy of a listen also. Gave me chills first time I listened to the run-up...

Found it --
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFGzgvgltMw

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 03:08
by spazsinbad
'QS" thanks for that - we get the HOWL briefly at 60 seconds in on the 1st touch & go! Another Cat Wind Up 2:40 monsta!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 03:13
by sferrin
quicksilver wrote:There's a video somewhere around from F-35C DT-1 (with audio) during the launch sequence on stbd side cat forward -- that's worthy of a listen also. Gave me chills first time I listened to the run-up...

Found it --
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFGzgvgltMw



Well then you'll like this one (go to 0:53 - and that's all dry power):


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 06:13
by spazsinbad
Forgot that this compound video - starting at 2min 48sec has 2 F-35C T&G howls onboard - music by IRON BUTTERFLY.
https://youtu.be/ffynvYi0b9o?t=170 :devil: IN A GADDA DA VIDA 1968 FFsake 50 years ago :doh: 17 minutes of ??????? :mrgreen:



:devil: THE FULL BOTTLE in an F-35 related video - demos of MartinBaker ejection seat in slomo for seventeen minutes. :doh:


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 15:38
by steve2267
sferrin wrote:Well then you'll like this one (go to 0:53 - and that's all dry power):



OMG - the nose shock compression at 1:31 at brake release. Quick, someone call Dr. D*ckhead (aka Gilmore)... gotta fix the engine -- it's too powerful, -- or mebbe the brakes... someone gonna hurt their neck at STO brake release! [/sarc=off]

That was an impressive STO.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2017, 14:50
by doge
That photos is the London AirShow F-35C. :D
London AirShow F-35C-1.jpg
London AirShow F-35C-2.jpg
London AirShow F-35C-3.jpg
London AirShow F-35C-4.jpg

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2017, 16:17
by white_lightning35
I like the look of the C variant a lot. I can't help but feel that it seems like it will a little sluggish. Those new engines can't come soon enough.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2017, 00:11
by wrightwing
white_lightning35 wrote:I like the look of the C variant a lot. I can't help but feel that it seems like it will a little sluggish. Those new engines can't come soon enough.

Well, more thrust is always nice, but the C can fly >M1.1 with 6 2000lb JDAMs, 2 AIM-120, and 2 AIM-9X. I think it's gonna be a lot zippier than you might think.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2017, 13:25
by sprstdlyscottsmn
The four externals were 1,000lb GBU-32s in that photo.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2017, 15:51
by mixelflick
Love the C's look, if not its acceleration :(

I mean c'mon.... relax the standard some 45 seconds? Or did I not hear correctly??

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2017, 16:57
by steve2267
mixelflick wrote:Love the C's look, if not its acceleration :(

I mean c'mon.... relax the standard some 45 seconds? Or did I not hear correctly??


Hey, it is what it is. Not even the F-35 can rescind the laws of Newton et al. The Navy had other requirements -- e.g. landing speed etc. When you make the wing that much larger, and the other control surfaces relatively larger as well... drag is going to increase. I suppose the Navy could have said... you know what... we really want that 45 seconds back on the acceleration spec... Let's make the internal weapons bays smaller to save weight and drag... the Corps got it right... we only need to haul 1000lb bombs internally.

Personally, I think all the requirements caught up to the Navy. Something had to give. They chose to "relax" the acceleration requirement.

On the other hand, Billie Flynn has been quoted as saying he loves the way the "C" turns... "like carving on a snowboard" or something like that. (Hey may even have said he loves the "C" the best, but I can't recall exactly.)

ETA: my google-fu is strong this morning, here's the quote:

Billie Flynn twittered:

Raging pulling G out over Atlantic Ocean in CF-5. Love this jet...flies like a kite and turns like a snowboard in deep powder snow.

Source: https://twitter.com/billieflynn/status/ ... 0411800576


Mebbe raw acceleration isn't everything...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2017, 18:50
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Hahaha, what's the 0.8M-1.2M acceleration time for an F/A-18E with two AAMs and two BGU-31s with a TGP adn the fuel to carry that 600+nm? What's its top speed in that config? Haw many G can it pull in that config?

The C is not the A, and it does not need to be.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2017, 19:10
by wrightwing
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:The four externals were 1,000lb GBU-32s in that photo.

Are you absolutely certain about that? I'm looking at pics of the externals compared with pics of 2000lb internals, and it's not as obvious. They look like GBU-31s.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2017, 19:11
by wrightwing
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Hahaha, what's the 0.8M-1.2M acceleration time for an F/A-18E with two AAMs and two BGU-31s with a TGP adn the fuel to carry that 600+nm? What's its top speed in that config? Haw many G can it pull in that config?

The C is not the A, and it does not need to be.

Yeah, comparing a clean aircraft, with a combat loaded aircraft is hardly apples to apples.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2017, 19:14
by Dragon029
wrightwing wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:The four externals were 1,000lb GBU-32s in that photo.

Are you absolutely certain about that? I'm looking at pics of the externals compared with pics of 2000lb internals, and it's not as obvious. They look like GBU-31s.

In the video, where the F-35C Mach >1 with external load image originates, the Lockheed pilot explicitly states they're GBU-32s / 1000lb-ers.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2017, 21:40
by wrightwing
I realize that, and also realize that there was some discussion about whether he mispoke, regarding 32 vs 31. Visually it looks like a 31.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 11 Oct 2017, 20:27
by steve2267
It would be cool to see an F-35B fly a Paris-type display eventually, but starting and ending with a vertical takeoff / landing. I should think that party trick should be doable with 7000lb of gas. Some routines could start with a STO, others with a VT just for grins -- a repositioning flight, as it were.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2017, 01:10
by mas
What I like about the F-35 high AoA maneuvers is how it still has good momentum and energy after when doing them. The TVC jets may be sharper, quicker and more pronounced in their direction change but they sacrifice airspeed in doing so coming to virtual complete stops in most cases. The F-35s AOA capability looks more safer to use in actual general combat to me. In the hands of a good pilot who fully understands the airframe I don't see the F-35 at a dogfighting disadvantage even against nominally better turning aircraft as it can use its high energy pointing ability to counteract this.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Oct 2017, 14:56
by doge
I gathered the videos again.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Oct 2017, 22:16
by spazsinbad
LM F-35 GM Weekly Update
13 Oct 2017 Jeff Babione

"F-35 Heading to Seoul Airshow
For the first time ever, the F-35A will appear at the Seoul Aerospace and Defense Exhibition (ADEX) Airshow at the Seoul International Airport in South Korea. Earlier this week, two F-35As from Hill AFB, Utah, took off and headed to South Korea where they will be on static display throughout the show beginning next week. Thousands of people are expected to attend the show and I have no doubt the F-35A will be a hit attraction for the event...."

Source: https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a6 ... _13_17.pdf (237Kb)

Contradiction in this article below; however perhaps the aerial display will be tame flypasts etc...
ADEX 2017: F-35 makes South Korean show debut
16 Oct 2017 Gareth Jennings

"...A pair of US Air Force (USAF) aircraft from Hill Air Force Base (AFB) in Utah is taking part in both the static and flying displays at the event taking place from 17 to 22 October at Seoul Air Base in South Korea...."

Source: http://www.janes.com/article/74922/adex ... show-debut

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2017, 21:46
by spazsinbad
ADEX: USAF sends message to Pyongyang at Seoul show
17 Oct 2017 Greg Waldron

"The US Air Force has made an impressive show of force at this year's Seoul ADEX defence show, bringing four stealth fighters and several other aircraft. The stars of the USAF contingent at the show are two Lockheed Martin F-22s and two Lockheed F-35As. All four aircraft appeared in the static display, with an F-22 also performing a high-g aerial display...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ow-442217/

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2017, 01:47
by white_lightning35
Ah, I can't wait to have an f-35 close enough for me to see. The "Green Mountain Boys" are scheduled to get their first f-35's in 2019, and they are relatively close to where I'll probably be. Hopefully there will be an airshow in the future close enough for me to attend before then, though. If the plane's on static display I'll probably have to be escorted away after overloading the pilot with questions.... 8)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Oct 2017, 18:00
by doge
Other vortex pictures of Huntington Beach AirShow.@@@@@
F-35 Vortex Huntington Beach AirShow1.jpg

F-35 Vortex Huntington Beach AirShow2.jpg


I collected videos again.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Oct 2017, 20:08
by f-16adf
Here are some F-35 pics:

https://imgur.com/a/XSBFn


Up close the jet seems pretty small. Everything is wrapped around that giant engine. I can't wait until thrust upgrades to nearly 50K. :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2017, 00:47
by f-16adf

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 18:01
by doge
I gathered the videos again.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 20:23
by sferrin
f-16adf wrote:Here are some F-35 pics:

https://imgur.com/a/XSBFn


Up close the jet seems pretty small. Everything is wrapped around that giant engine. I can't wait until thrust upgrades to nearly 50K. :D


I once saw an F-104 with the engine pulled. Looked like a beer can wrapped around a J-79. :shock:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 20:55
by juretrn
The footage from 1:45 onwards is perhaps some of the best demonstration of the power of the F135 IMO.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 23:13
by spazsinbad
doge wrote:I gathered the videos again....

:doh: :devil: Heheh - don't you like the way You TUBE insists on TWO freakin names DO GE! From Spaz Sinbad :devil: :doh:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 22:12
by doge
I gathered the video again.


Vortex Photos@@@@@@@
F-35A vortex1.jpg
F-35A vortex2.jpg
F-35A vortex3.jpg
F-35A vortex4.jpg

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 22:53
by mas
That's your best compilation to date, well done. I just love the way this little stubby fighter/bomber points, turns, climbs and accelerates ... all the same time 8). It's quickly becoming my airshow favourite ;). In fact it's got more in common with the P-51 Thunderbolt than with its P-38 Lightning namesake.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 23:20
by steve2267
mas wrote:That's your best compilation to date, well done. I just love the way this little stubby fighter/bomber points, turns, climbs and accelerates ... all the same time 8). It's quickly becoming my airshow favourite ;). In fact it's got more in common with the P-51 Thunderbolt than with its P-38 Lightning namesake.


P-51 Mustang
-- OR --
P-47 Thunderbolt

?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 01:41
by blindpilot
steve2267 wrote:
mas wrote:That's your best compilation to date, well done. I just love the way this little stubby fighter/bomber points, turns, climbs and accelerates ... all the same time 8). It's quickly becoming my airshow favourite ;). In fact it's got more in common with the P-51 Thunderbolt than with its P-38 Lightning namesake.


P-51 Mustang
-- OR --
P-47 Thunderbolt

?


LOL, He gotcha Mas :D :D :doh:
BP

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 01:46
by blindpilot
blindpilot wrote:...
LOL, He gotcha Mas :D :D :doh:
BP


PS I'm just posting ditties here the last few days so I can gra..juu..wate to Elite 1K (first Class) poster. You may want to ignore my posts the next few days. bout 20 posts to go ... :D :D

:mrgreen:

BP

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 01:49
by spazsinbad
blindpilot wrote:
blindpilot wrote:...
LOL, He gotcha Mas :D :D :doh:
BP


PS I'm just posting ditties here the last few days so I can gra..juu..wate to Elite 1K (first Class) poster. You may want to ignore my posts the next few days. bout 20 posts to go ... :D :D

:mrgreen:

BP

:doh: Aks some QUEstions? Just 500+ more entries for me to get to 20K - OMG - What have I done? How did I get here? :devil:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 02:02
by juretrn
Cool roll rates there, at least 120 deg/s

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 02:58
by optimist
It will never make it to air shows, but I'm still in awe at the departure testing



High AOA wasn't bad either

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 03:57
by steve2267
Those pulls to the vertical in the videos posted by Doge appear to demonstrate a very high pitch rate to a very high AOA. I would not be surprised if the pilots are pulling to a 50° AOA, at least momentarily.

So while they are not demonstrating departure from controlled flight, the testing shown in the two videos posted by Optimist directly impacted some of the maneuvers shown in these air show maneuvers.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 08:39
by optimist
stuff you will never see at an air show,
I've just found one I haven't seen, an early hornet, I don't know what FCS number he was running, but some stuff you couldn't recover from, until the later upgrade after the shornet
The list was getting long so I'll just use the link.It took him a while to recover
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdftTMpXXCQ
falling leaf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSLmblzI_c4

sitting in a f-22


sitting in a f-16 and throwing the shoot out.


even the F-106 can spin it


and other f-16





Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 10:44
by 35_aoa
optimist wrote:stuff you will never see at an air show,
I've just found one I haven't seen, an early hornet, I don't know what FCS number he was running, but some stuff you couldn't recover from, until the later upgrade after the shornet


"PROM 10.7" was the FCS software that got rid of the falling leaf in the hornet. Maybe 15 years ago ish. It was the equivalent of the MPO switch for the Viper, in terms of accident prevention.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 11:40
by optimist
Thanks, that sounds like it, It's talked about in a 2011 flight manual, from google. So it was still the current, main upgrade then.
The 2011 flight manual reference
https://info.publicintelligence.net/F18-ABCD-000.pdf

I put it in google, but it was a short list, some stuff gets lost over the years. Or what I read years ago, about the testing of the upgraded FCS wasn't fully formulated with a final number. It was a very good report on it and went into a lot of the development and testing of the various improvements. It's all a bit foggy now, but I remember it had picture of the AoA chart :wink:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 14:49
by mixelflick
The jet is really coming into its own now..

How anyone can continue to rag on the F-35 is beyond me. You have a near invisible, all seeing/all knowing platform that has nose pointing ability somewhere between a Super Hornet and F-22.

I couldn't help but chuckle thinking of the "Can't turn, can't climb, can't run" APA criticism while watching the videos. This thing isn't just an F-16 on steroids. It is much closer to an F-22 in its capabilities..

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 18:24
by sferrin
Not too bad here at 4:30



Or this Bee here:



And while not an airshow, definitely awesome:


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2018, 18:13
by smsgtmac
While not an airshow per se, today's Rose Parade had the F-35 joining the B-2.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2018, 18:29
by white_lightning35
Blast! I missed that one

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2018, 21:30
by sferrin
Not to go too far afield, and this isn't an F-35, but check out 1:46:



So. . .anything official about the F-22 using differential thrust to affect yaw?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2018, 23:19
by steve2267
Nifty trick -- a pretty neat pivot. Nothing like turning an F-22 into a $150M grape, though.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2018, 23:28
by sferrin
steve2267 wrote:Nifty trick -- a pretty neat pivot. Nothing like turning an F-22 into a $150M grape, though.


A grape?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2018, 23:55
by steve2267
That pivot is a nifty air show trick. But performing that maneuver in a for-real fight... would that not basically be turning that F-22 into a strafe rag?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2018, 00:07
by sferrin
steve2267 wrote:That pivot is a nifty air show trick. But performing that maneuver in a for-real fight... would that not basically be turning that F-22 into a strafe rag?


Don't know. I know the concept was tested with the X-31 and it stomped all over Hornets in testing. (Though I don't know that it was the post-stall stuff that was the cause.)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2018, 00:14
by steve2267
In interviews, experienced F-22 pilot have stated they only lost to Typhies etc when they pissed away all their energy and got into the post-stall maneuvering. The pilot whose interview I recall stated it was typically the young, FNG pilots who appear to have fallen in love with thrust vectoring and "pulling the black" off the stick and got themselves in trouble by getting slow.

As with most things, though... it is probably a question of experience and timing. I could see a very experienced pilot pulling something like that out of his ye ol' bag o'tricks when the timing was just right. But in general, from what I have learned from a lot of reading here on this forum, getting slow like in that pivot turn is to be avoided.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Jan 2018, 00:35
by mas
steve2267 wrote:
mas wrote:That's your best compilation to date, well done. I just love the way this little stubby fighter/bomber points, turns, climbs and accelerates ... all the same time 8). It's quickly becoming my airshow favourite ;). In fact it's got more in common with the P-51 Thunderbolt than with its P-38 Lightning namesake.


P-51 Mustang
-- OR --
P-47 Thunderbolt

?


Sorry about the typo, i meant its fellow stubby but very effective fighter bomber, P-47 Thunderbolt. The
P-51 Mustang reminds me more of the F-22 Raptor, another high altitude fast maneouvrable beast 8).

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 03:32
by doge
It seems that take-off distance is quite short! :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 04:31
by sferrin
Here at 11:11 ain't bad:


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 07:28
by hornetfinn
sferrin wrote:And while not an airshow, definitely awesome:



That was really awesome video, thank you. Must be really cool to be there on the ground and I'm sure that's something to remember for the pilots too.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2018, 02:00
by doge
This year, Can we see the 3F/9G air show? (I want to see very much! :D )
https://www.facebook.com/F35HFT/posts/2276296015930325
Q) Does this F-35 Have Block 3F Software installed ??

U.S. Air Force F-35 Heritage Flight Team
A) F-35s are now receiving the Block 3F and we will continue to update as the mission allows.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2018, 15:28
by steve2267
doge wrote:This year, Can we see the 3F/9G air show? (I want to see very much! :D )
https://www.facebook.com/F35HFT/posts/2276296015930325


As military pilots have posted here on F-16.net, airshow routines are typically flown at airspeeds below the 9G corner speed. Even if an F-35 came across show center fast enough to enter a 9G bat turn, it may not be discernible to the public on the ground.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2018, 20:26
by lbk000
Um, from what little insight I've gleaned about ACM, the most agile point of an aircraft's maneuvering envelope isn't and shouldn't be anywhere near its max G load capability.

G's are produced in maneuvering, but more G's rarely equates to apparent "agility". In a hard instantaneous turn, a lot of G's are produced but it doesn't mean it will translate to a high crossing speed, as from the perspective of the viewer, the larger turn radius will counteract the gain in rate. Once speed has bled down towards corner speed and radius shrinks, rate starts working with radius to produce much greater apparent angular displacements. With these lower speeds comes lower G's.

It so stands that in practice a "mundane" 4g turn executed at 320kts is often far more effective in generating the angular displacement required to avoid a gunshot or even a missile than pulling 11g's at 500kts. In other words, there's flying harder... and there's flying smarter.

So how does this square with the trend for increasingly high-alpha, high-instantaneous, and more G-tolerant designs? There's no actual conflict. High alpha aerodynamics only serve to make better use of the speed envelope above and below the optimal speed band, it does not supplant it.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2018, 20:55
by steve2267
I am going to play a little devil's advocate here. No offence intended.

lbk000 wrote:Um, from what little insight I've gleaned about ACM, the most agile point of an aircraft's maneuvering envelope isn't and shouldn't be anywhere near its max G load capability.

G's are produced in maneuvering, but more G's rarely equates to apparent "agility". In a hard instantaneous turn, a lot of G's are produced but it doesn't mean it will translate to a high crossing speed, as from the perspective of the viewer, the larger turn radius will counteract the gain in rate. Once speed has bled down towards corner speed and radius shrinks, rate starts working with radius to produce much greater apparent angular displacements. With these lower speeds comes lower G's.

What do you mean by "agility"? I think there may be many definitions. What do you mean by "high crossing speed"? Angular change per unit time from a airshow viewer's perspective? Linear ground speed?

Umm, but corner speed, by definition, is the lowest airspeed at which max G's can be attained, correct?

lbk000 wrote:It so stands that in practice a "mundane" 4g turn executed at 320kts is often far more effective in generating the angular displacement required to avoid a gunshot or even a missile than pulling 11g's at 500kts. In other words, there's flying harder... and there's flying smarter.


I'm not sure what "angular displacement" means, but I agree about the flying smarter bit.

lbk000 wrote:So how does this square with the trend for increasingly high-alpha, high-instantaneous, and more G-tolerant designs? There's no actual conflict. High alpha aerodynamics only serve to make better use of the speed envelope above and below the optimal speed band, it does not supplant it.


I'm a little confused about what you are trying to say here. An aircraft is not going to be near it's maximum angle of attack at it's corner speed. And above it's corner speed, or above it's optimal speed band, it certainly is not going to be utilizing "high alpha aerodynamics" lest the aircraft break apart and/or the pilot get squeezed like a grape until he pops.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2018, 21:00
by steve2267
Several military pilots have stated on this forum that "you're not going to be able to tell" the difference between a 9g turn and what the F-35 has been performing in actual shows, which, if memory serves, is a 5g turn at show center. Also, I think it has been stated that the airspeeds flown at airshows is not high enough to attain a 9g turn (i.e. is below corner speed).

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2018, 23:05
by lbk000
steve2267 wrote:What do you mean by "agility"? I think there may be many definitions. What do you mean by "high crossing speed"? Angular change per unit time from a airshow viewer's perspective? Linear ground speed?

I've kind of settling on perceiving agility as rates of change. The most important part about maneuvering is the target's relationship to the observer. High crossing speed is describing the relative change in bearing of the target to the viewer. A 20mph car at 5 ft displaces far more degrees per second than a 40mph car at 5000ft.
For the purposes of an airshow display, this is what I think is important to create the sense of agility. In actual combat there are other forms of "agility" but the ability to generate high angular velocity relative to an observer (the enemy!) nevertheless remains essential.

steve2267 wrote:Umm, but corner speed, by definition, is the lowest airspeed at which max G's can be attained, correct?

Corner is where small radius (requires low speed) and high rate (requires high speed) are both sustainable. At corner speed you will neither achieve max rate, nor will you achieve minimum radius, but since rate and radius are at equilibrium at this point, neither will be working against the other in the generation of apparent motion relative to the observer, and so will result in the "quickest" turn.

steve2267 wrote:I'm a little confused about what you are trying to say here. An aircraft is not going to be near it's maximum angle of attack at it's corner speed. And above it's corner speed, or above it's optimal speed band, it certainly is not going to be utilizing "high alpha aerodynamics" lest the aircraft break apart and/or the pilot get squeezed like a grape until he pops.

High alpha capability is stall tolerance. Stalls can happen at any speeds, all it means is that flow separation has occurred. It is relevant at all parts of an aircraft's performance envelope.
Remember that higher speeds allow for more rate to be generated. But to actually generate those higher rates, more AoA is required. Earlier airfoils with low critical AoA are relegated to a narrow rate band. Trying to take advantage of excess airspeed (speeds above corner) to create more rate would only result in flow separation and instability. Excess speed in earlier combat aircraft had to be bled off with speedbrakes, as higher speed only increased turn radius without offering any rate advantage.
Modern aerodynamics has been about delaying flow separation through the use of features like vortex generators. By delaying flow separation, higher AoAs can be achieved, hence more rate. High alpha capability allows the aircraft to use excess speed to generate extra turn rate (aka ITR) in exchange for drag, which is good, because it's like a free ticket down to corner speed. Looking at it from a different perspective, the "speedbrake" now generates useful work.

---
I want to point out as an afterthought on the issue of both G's and perception that the "spectacular" Su-35 tumble from last year's PAS would not have generated much in the way of G forces due to the low speed at which it happened, yet to the common person the high rates of rotation could not be described as anything but "agile".

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2018, 23:28
by doge
steve2267 wrote:

lbk000 wrote:

Thank you very much!
I feel sad that I can not see it on video...But, instead, I think that I want to look forward, the Pilot's impressions! :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2018, 00:42
by steve2267
doge wrote:Thank you very much!
I feel sad that I can not see it on video...But, instead, I think that I want to look forward, the Pilot's impressions! :D


Doge, you're welcome. Hopefully the following, from a PM I received from an active duty Killer Bee pilot, will give you some perspective. I'm not giving away his ident, nor anything opsec / persec related, and it's fairly generic, so I don't think he'll mind:

It's difficult at best to extrapolate the turn perf numbers based on video. For example, in this video from the 2016 Miramar Air Show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoQbAj_ICYA at the 1:25 mark the pilot is hitting show center at 350 kts and executes a 5 - 5.5G turn in full a/b for 180 degrees of turn, pulls the throttle out of a/b to mil power for the next 90 degrees of turn to bleed off some energy (the jet will accel at 5.5G's in a/b at sea level), and then plugs blower back in for the last 90 degrees of turn for the "acoustic" effect... 30deg/sec is probably a bit high. Corner velocity is a peak for this jet vice a plateau like the viper. You are also correct in your thoughts about speed. Remember in a radius fight you're below corner and "less" worried about rate and more worried about radius.


Here's that video, go to the 1:25 mark for his comments:


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2018, 01:53
by nutshell
steve2267 wrote:
doge wrote:This year, Can we see the 3F/9G air show? (I want to see very much! :D )
https://www.facebook.com/F35HFT/posts/2276296015930325


As military pilots have posted here on F-16.net, airshow routines are typically flown at airspeeds below the 9G corner speed. Even if an F-35 came across show center fast enough to enter a 9G bat turn, it may not be discernible to the public on the ground.


3i cripples the CLAWs, I don't think it's just a "simple" G limiter.

I expect a slight improvement across the board.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2018, 02:22
by steve2267
nutshell wrote:
I expect a slight improvement across the board.


You might be right, nut. But I have read several aviators here or in news stories or interviews that have stated that you're not going to see the difference in airshows. :shrug:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2018, 09:00
by nutshell
steve2267 wrote:
nutshell wrote:
I expect a slight improvement across the board.


You might be right, nut. But I have read several aviators here or in news stories or interviews that have stated that you're not going to see the difference in airshows. :shrug:


Who cares about the airshows :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2018, 15:19
by zero-one
we might see a difference although it may have little to do with the planes capability. I remember when the Raptor first appeared on Demos, it was a little tame...er compared to the ones today.

RIAT seems to have the best Raptor Demos, I guess the team really shows off when the crowd is bigger, having Typhoon and Rafale pilots on the line also adds a little motivation I guess

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2018, 15:28
by vilters
I want to count the airshows where a 9G capable airframe actually pulled a "9G" 360 circle.
But then again; It proves exactly the same as a cobra. Nothing at all.

Ask ANY pilot : More fuel or Trust vectoring? Missile or Gun? BVR or WVR?

If you have a screw, you need a screwdriver.
If you have a nail, you need a hammer.

Airshows are to please a paying crowd.
They want exitement, they want to see something.
Same as Formula 1.
Who goes for the F1 race? Not a single soul. They want to see the crashes.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2018, 16:05
by zero-one
vilters wrote:Same as Formula 1.
Who goes for the F1 race? Not a single soul. They want to see the crashes.



Hey now :shock:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2018, 16:28
by white_lightning35
zero-one wrote:
vilters wrote:Same as Formula 1.
Who goes for the F1 race? Not a single soul. They want to see the crashes.



Hey now :shock:


Tbh that probably is true for vilters' depraved mind, but I would personally like to go to airshows to see the planes fly, and would love go to a Q & A session with a display.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2018, 18:00
by zero-one
Tailgate said, he can't talk too much about certain classified maneuvers when talking about the Raptor's ACM tactics, and Sukhoi test pilot Sergey Bodgan said there are certain maneuvers used to evade missiles

So that tells me that there is still a place in modern A-A for kinematics.
And what do they do at airshows, well kinematics at full display.

Airshows won't tell you much, but they will tell you something maybe at least the 1st paragraph in a book maybe :drool:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2018, 19:02
by jetblast16
Still, like others, I would love to see an F-35A perform a sustained 9G turn :devil:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2018, 01:11
by jetblast16

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2018, 01:38
by spazsinbad
Thanks and thanks to Lt.Col BUZZ Erker USMC. :roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2018, 02:08
by jetblast16
Haha.. His (Slow)RVL was pretty BUZZ Erker lol

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Mar 2018, 03:42
by spazsinbad
ANALYSIS: Latin America shows signs of defence spending recovery
21 Mar 2018 Stephen Trimble

"...A preliminary count of exhibitors was not available as Flight International went to press, but it is already clear the event will be well attended. The 2016 show hosted the regional debut of the Lockheed Martin F-22 in Chile, and this year's event will mark the first appearance of Lockheed's F-35 Lightning II in South America. The single-engined stealth fighter will be parked in the static display, and the US Air Force's twin-engined F-22 will make a return appearance, also in the static display...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nd-446680/

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Mar 2018, 15:20
by mixelflick
[/quote]

Who cares about the airshows :D[/quote]

I do. Here's my question: When do they start flying US airshows and take the gloves off this thing? 2019, 2020? I mean flying something like a Paris display...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 02:12
by element1loop
mixelflick wrote:
nutshell wrote:
Who cares about the airshows :D


I do. Here's my question: When do they start flying US airshows and take the gloves off this thing? 2019, 2020? I mean flying something like a Paris display...



As I recall 3i envelope restrictions remain within new 'full' 3F version, being installed now, until 3F completes operational testing, which appears will drag on until at least Jan 2020 at the earliest.

i.e. mid to possibly late 2020.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 04:29
by Dragon029
element1loop wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
nutshell wrote:
Who cares about the airshows :D


I do. Here's my question: When do they start flying US airshows and take the gloves off this thing? 2019, 2020? I mean flying something like a Paris display...



As I recall 3i envelope restrictions remain within new 'full' 3F version, being installed now, until 3F completes operational testing, which appears will drag on until at least Jan 2020 at the earliest.

i.e. mid to possibly late 2020.


The Block 3F that was being released from August last year had Block 3i envelope restrictions, but as of about a month Block 3F is fully released for the F-35A variant, with a fully opened flight envelope. The F-35B and F-35C follow in May and June respectively.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 04:38
by optimist
vilters wrote:I want to count the airshows where a 9G capable airframe actually pulled a "9G" 360 circle.
But then again; It proves exactly the same as a cobra. Nothing at all.

We are on the same page with this, I doubt any airshow routine actually has a 9g element in it. If they happen to over G, it's a big deal. You aren't going to tell if it's 8 or 9g from the ground. A bit of vortex vapour and everyone is happy

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 22:38
by geforcerfx



Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 10:00
by spazsinbad
F-35s to Make First Latin America Appearance This Week
03 Apr 2018 Brian Everstine, Steve Hirsch, and Amy McCullough

"The F-35 fighter will be on display for the first time in Latin America this week at the International Air and Space Fair, FIDAE 2018, April 3-8 in Santiago, Chile, according to the US Embassy there. In addition, the Air Force F-22 Raptor Demonstration Team will demonstrate maneuvers...."

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... irmen.aspx

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 15:10
by SpudmanWP

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 17:14
by spazsinbad
Lockheed, US Air Force mount F-35 sales pitch at Berlin Air Show
23 Apr 2018 Sebastian Sprenger

"COLOGNE, Germany ― The first-ever exhibit of an F-35 fighter jet at this week’s Berlin Air Show could inject a new sense of competition for a key German military program that has already appeared to tip toward the European-made competition. The U.S. Air Force plans to present two specimens of its fifth-generation aircraft as a static display at the show, which starts Wednesday. The two planes arrived from Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, on Sunday evening after what officials termed the aircraft’s longest nonstop flight, at 11-plus hours.

Manufacturer Lockheed Martin said the U.S. air service, as the weapons’ owner, has the lead on the exhibit planning in Berlin. No F-35 flight demonstrations were planned as of Monday...."

[Then lots of FOLDEROL that is not related to an airshow but to 'F-35 for Germany' which should go in another thread.
GO HERE FOR IT: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=53254&p=393256&hilit=sprenger#p393256 ]

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... -air-show/

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 21:50
by spazsinbad

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2018, 12:55
by mixelflick
Let her fly in Germany. Let her fly...

It's a shame national pride is standing in the way of a superior weapons system. 5th gen aircraft aren't easy to design, test and deploy. Seriously doubt the French in particular are going to have a stealthy Rafale replacement in time for the 2025-30 time frame. Ditto for the other nations. Sometimes, you need to look in the mirror and admit, "we don't do this well"...

Hint: Russia LOL

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2018, 20:36
by doge
From ILA 2018
http://www.monch.com/mpg/news/air/3273- ... 0002298683
ILA 2018: A LUFTWAFFE F-35?
Published: 26 April 2018
In contemporary integrated air defence environments, it is almost impossible for fourth generation aircraft to prosecute their missions and survive,” Director of F-35 International Business Development, Steve Over, told ILA Show Dailies.

In a current generation aircraft, he explained, over 90% of the radar cross-section is a result of the external weapons load. In the case of the LIGHTNING II, the internal weapons bay removes that issue almost entirely, reducing the radar return to a hostile air defence system and contributing to the aircraft’s very low observable (VLO) characteristics. Similarly, an F-35 with its internal fuel load of 18,000lbs will have a broadly similar range to an F-16 ‘maxed-out’ with every auxiliary fuel tank it can carry – enhancing mission execution and survivability.Much more telling, however, is the LIGHTNING’s, “transformational capability,” in Mr. Over’s words.

Is there a possibility that this also includes CFT ?
EFT×3 alone is amazing though, But,
If also included CFT, more amazing! :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2018, 21:32
by SpudmanWP
The max range of an F-16 with 2x600 gal EFTs and installed CFTs while hauling 2x2K JDAMS with AAMs is 630nmi. No centerline tank due to jammer pod. Drops EFTs when empty.

Per the latest SAR, the A2G range with 2x2k JDAMS with AAMs is 669nmi for the F-35A.

So yes, the F-35A out-ranges a maxed out (EFT and CFT) F-16.

Image

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2018, 22:11
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Oh man... but please, let's talk about how agile an airshow viper is! I love the Viper, I really do. It can do anything well, but it cannot do everything well at the same time.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2018, 14:26
by doge
SpudmanWP wrote:The max range of an F-16 with 2x600 gal EFTs and installed CFTs while hauling 2x2K JDAMS with AAMs is 630nmi. No centerline tank due to jammer pod. Drops EFTs when empty.

Per the latest SAR, the A2G range with 2x2k JDAMS with AAMs is 669nmi for the F-35A.

So yes, the F-35A out-ranges a maxed out (EFT and CFT) F-16.

Thank you very much!
Range longer than F-16's EFT+CFT...It's amazing...! :shock:

(And add, I found a ILA2018 PDF that the same thing is written. (it's page20))
http://www.monch.com/mpg/images/exhibit ... 2-2018.pdf

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2018, 14:55
by basher54321
Not entirely correct because most of the CFT advanced F-16s (B50+/52+/60) have internal ECM fits and don't use pods. Weight and practicality of nearly 20,000 lbs fuel might be an issue but not seeing why it couldn't be done.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2018, 16:49
by spazsinbad
Good one li'l doggy - 2 page PDF extract 'LUFTWAFFE F-35?' attached.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2018, 17:59
by white_lightning35
That cliff hanger at the end killed me.
programme total of over 4,000 aircraft likely when all potential has been
realised, and currently in production for 10 countries, there is no good
reason why Germany should not seriously consider becoming.


BECOMING WHAT?!?!.

Anyways, some interesting excerpts:

The Distributed Aperture System,......, has been redesigned and replaced, making the system
“twice as effective, five times more reliable and reducing maintenance
costs by 55%,” Mr. Over stated.


I wasn't aware of the upgrade wrt effectiveness. Would this mean software changes, or perhaps larger aperture cameras?

“The F-35’s Active Electronically
Scanned Array (AESA) radar also acts as the aircraft’s principal jamming
transmitter – and a remarkably powerful one at that,”


I also wasn't aware that the radar was its principal jammer. Is the f-35 alone in this regard?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2018, 18:07
by spazsinbad
BECOMING an 'F-35 Luftwaffe' I suppose. TITLE of article is "A Luftwaffe F-35?".

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 05:48
by citanon
F35 and friends putting on some moves in Death Valley:


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 06:08
by spazsinbad
TUFF for some.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 06:39
by citanon
spazsinbad wrote:TUFF for some.


Ahh, that might be why he put up a no-music version:


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 07:36
by spazsinbad
Do you know what the soundtrack is? I hear voices of pilots though. Thanks for this. :applause:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 07:48
by citanon
spazsinbad wrote:Do you know what the soundtrack is? I hear voices of pilots though. Thanks for this. :applause:


It was some dark, vaguely star wars like orchestra music. Beyond that I'm not sure.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2018, 07:20
by citanon
Boy, these Dutch guys sure like to show off! :D


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 19:46
by jetblast16
Boy, these Dutch guys sure like to show off! :D


Lightning and Thunder :)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 15:04
by mixelflick
The F-35's look is really starting to grow on me. Head on it looks almost Raptor like. Clean lines, looks plenty zippy too. I'm not sure how people got to slamming the aircraft. To me it's looking better and better.

Although I think the F-35C is the most impressive (from a visual perspective)...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 09:01
by spazsinbad
F-35B Stealth Aircraft the Star of the MCAS Iwakuni 2018 Airshow – Single Day Record Attendance of 215,000!
08 May 2018 FighterSWEEP

“The F-35B, America’s most-advanced stealth fighter wowed a record 215,000 people Saturday [05 May 2018] at the base’s 42nd annual Friendship Day. In its first aerial demonstration in Asia, the F-35B Lightning II showed off its ability to hover and land vertically. “The best part of today is watching the Japanese people get excited about what we do every day,” said Lance Cpl. Abrie Balkwill, a motor transport operator with Marine Wing Support Squadron 171. – Stars & Stripes: https://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/iw ... d-1.525628

Source: https://fightersweep.com/10240/f-35b-st ... of-215000/


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 02:08
by jetblast16


Lots of great F-35B action! (some more views)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2018, 14:10
by doge
F-35's vortex photo.@@@@@ :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2018, 14:24
by sferrin
Those must be photoshopped. Everybody knows the F-35 can't maneuver. :twisted:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 17:07
by playloud
Some nice turns!


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 18:13
by sprstdlyscottsmn
I particularly dig the first one with the rapid bleed followed by a power climb

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 19:02
by scx
A video i found on YouTube, showing the post stall maneuvering of the Panther :D


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 22:00
by marsavian
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I particularly dig the first one with the rapid bleed followed by a power climb


Indeed, that looks F-22 level. ~5 seconds for a 180 turn (0:22 to 0:27m) is no joke even if airspeed was gone at the end of it. The F-35 has some very good distinctive performance aerodynamics of its own despite the constant desire of critics to claim it can't even match its predecessors.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 22:14
by sprstdlyscottsmn
marsavian wrote:Indeed, that looks F-22 level. ~5 seconds for a 180 turn (0:22 to 0:27m) is no joke even if airspeed was gone at the end of it. The F-35 has some very good distinctive performance aerodynamics of its own despite the constant desire of critics to claim it can't even match its predecessors.

I would not be confident in saying it was a 180 degree turn, angle of turn is an unknown. The angle of the nose relative to the flight path is another unknown. The velocity vector may have changed as little as 90-100 degrees in that five seconds. What impressed me was that it could bleed off all kinds of speed and still have the power and authority to roll wings level, pull nose up, steep climb, roll, pull inverted, roll level, and accelerate away.

I can't wait to see a "3F" demo for myself.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 22:46
by geforcerfx



Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 23:58
by juretrn
Great display of just how much power the F-35 has.
If you listen closely, you can almost hear Jeremy Clarkson going "POWERRR!!!" :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2018, 02:27
by spazsinbad
Miami Beach Air Show 2018 F-35 LIGHTING?! What's rong with 'mericans? Are they congenitally unable to spell LIGHTENING! :devil:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2018, 04:11
by adamschallau
The correct spelling is Lightning, no e.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2018, 06:05
by spazsinbad
Thanks. :roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2018, 07:13
by hornetfinn
marsavian wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I particularly dig the first one with the rapid bleed followed by a power climb


Indeed, that looks F-22 level. ~5 seconds for a 180 turn (0:22 to 0:27m) is no joke even if airspeed was gone at the end of it. The F-35 has some very good distinctive performance aerodynamics of its own despite the constant desire of critics to claim it can't even match its predecessors.


Agreed. To me it seems like handbrake turn in rally car. When done right, it's likely a very nice capability to have. I don't think there are many fighters out there that could do that as well or at all.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2018, 13:30
by mixelflick
That turn was unreal!

Never saw an F-16 do that. Hell, I've only ever seen the F-22 do that!!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2018, 13:47
by mk82
If Sprey was at the Miami Beach Memorial Day 2018 air show......his brains would have exploded lol!!!

I guess a very big fried egg is on Sprey’s face now lol! :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2018, 14:55
by XanderCrews
But Muh wing loading!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2018, 07:02
by hornetfinn
Clearly can't turn, can't climb and can't run... :roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2018, 15:00
by ricnunes
Aparently Mr. Sprey even got the Turkey part (bird) wrong:



:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2018, 17:50
by citanon
You are a day and a page late there sferrin. Playloud posted the video already. :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 04:13
by gta4
If you want a fast turn without bleeding much energy, check this:

download/file.php?id=25497

Original video (For Pierre Spray fanboys or even himself who are crying "GIF is edited and accelerated!")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6cptWIyOVU

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 07:45
by gta4
playloud wrote:Some nice turns!



If this beast is upgraded to 9G, that maneuver would be even faster than what is shown in this video.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 14:12
by vilters
You won't die in the turn, as nothing can turn at the same rate as you can but you will die right after the turn, when gasping for the lost energy.

These "High G" turns prove nothing at all. We aren"t in WW1 or 2 any more.

While you are playing, and suffering the "G", you opponent's wingman will fire from 20 Nm away, and send a telegram to your widow.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 14:58
by steve2267
gta4 wrote:
playloud wrote:Some nice turns!



If this beast is upgraded to 9G, that maneuver would be even faster than what is shown in this video.


Isn't that largely air-speed dependent? I was unable to view the Mach meter from the video viewpoint, so I am not able to make any definitive statement as to whether the F-35 was g-limited in the bat turn at the beginning of this video. Am I missing something?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 15:07
by steve2267
vilters wrote:You won't die in the turn, as nothing can turn at the same rate as you can but you will die right after the turn, when gasping for the lost energy.

These "High G" turns prove nothing at all. We aren"t in WW1 or 2 any more.

That really all depends, doesn't it? The pilot isn't forced to piss away all his energy in one yuge, bat turn, but the F-35 apparently gives him that option. Unlike the F/A-18, that RBFM in the back lets him regain that energy right quick, by all pilot accounts I have read. Or the pilot can choose to keep his E up, and play the rate game. "How do you want to play? Doesn't matter... whatever you can do, I can do better, or kill you another way," drawls the F-35.

vilters wrote:While you are playing, and suffering the "G", you opponent's wingman will fire from 20 Nm away, and send a telegram to your widow.


Actually, some aircraft (Viper and Typhie come to mind), more or less force you to endure 8-9g maneuvers to max perform the aircraft. The F-35 appears to enable the pilot to sluff off some airspeed and achieve similar turn rates at a gee or two less -- if the situation depends on it. One big bat turn may or may not be the best way to sluff off that speed, but its an option. And the demonstration of that turn hints at just what this jet is capable of.

WRT to the last statement, I doubt if any jet can target an F-35 from 20nm, let alone distinguish a maneuvering F-35 from dear wing leader and target only the F-35.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 15:38
by Gums
Salute!

Well now, at about 360 knots CAS and below 8 or 9,000 feet, the Viper could hold the famous 9 gees all thru the 360 and come out at the same speed, then go vertical. That was 30 years ago with the "small engine"

So the wounded duck scenario is not a player in the A2A configuration, or fairly clean after dropping the pig iron.

Up at a decent strike altitude, you won't be able to hold 9 gees, but prolly one to two more than brand "x" and he will have a larger turn radius and could be bleeding energy himself. We saw that early on against the Eagles. Other "targets" were like a half a turn and then last ditch maneuver. Remember, every gee you have over the other guy is more accelertion toward the center of the turn.

I am not concerned with Stubby gogfight capability at all.

Gums sends...

P.S. Steve has two great references RE; Viper control laws and aero in the early days,

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 16:32
by zero-one
vilters wrote:These "High G" turns prove nothing at all. We aren"t in WW1 or 2 any more.


High G turns weren't possible in WW1 and 2, these are actually traits of modern combat.

vilters wrote:While you are playing, and suffering the "G", you opponent's wingman will fire from 20 Nm away, and send a telegram to your widow.


This is not always the case. There were times where F-14s, 15s and 16s employed hard maneuvering to fight and win.

Remember Red Flag 17-1. The F-35 tallied 140+ kills to 7 losses. All losses were WVR. Does this mean WVR only happened 7 times, that would imply that the F-35 lost all of it's WVR engagements so I doubt it. What that means is that even with 5th gen, WVR is a possibility.

Being able to pull hard and never needing it is much better than not being able to do it then finding yourself needing it and wishing you can convert all your data sharing bandwith into excess thrust instead.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 20:06
by vilters
Red Flag, => LOL.
The outcome of ANY Red Flag mission can be 100% predicted when you read the ROE.
I will remember a RED Flag the day they stop writing those crazy ROE's.

The ONLY ROE should be : Min Safety altitude is ….. Area is yours. … See you in debrief. Period.

Red Commander should attack with a UNKNOWN number, and an UNKNOWN combination of aircraft (enlarge that to UNKNOWN number of weapon systems (up to and including the shut down of the power system of the range), at UNKNOWN intervals.

Blue should be on alert ON THE ground and scramble an UNKNOWN number of UNKNOWN aircraft.

The ONLY 2 ROE's common for Blue and Red is the min safety altitude, and the losers pay the bar bill.

All the rest is comedy capers.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 20:15
by steve2267
vilters wrote:Red Commander should attack with a UNKNOWN number, and an UNKNOWN combination of aircraft(enlarge that to weapon systems), at UNKNOWN intervals.


Kind of like Red Air getting respawned at UNKNOWN time & place, WVR of F-35's, eh?

I had no idea you are a professional military combat pilot, let alone an instructor vilters. Are you a patch wearer too?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 20:27
by vilters
LOL.
I will write you a set of ROE's, and whatever you try or do, the C-130 (or choose the A/C that "needs a win") , WILL win the 2019 Red Flag. That is how "set-up" these things have become under the ALL covering excuse of safety..

Prepare is good.
Safety is good
Briefings are good.

Until you "over" prepare, or "overbrief", or "over-plan". => The you are "steering" the outcome.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 20:34
by vilters
LOL again. real LOL.
You tell me to remember Red Flag Huh ! => OK, I will.

One of the last red Flags the A-10 scored the highest number of A2A kills.
So? ? ? => The A-10 is the best A2A fighter.

That is how "real" Red Flag has become these last years.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 20:42
by SpudmanWP
You might want to actually listen to pilots & Flag Officers give testimony on Red Flag.

In short, you are FOS.

Specifically, they talk about the 'last day" where it's a Red-Air "no holds barred" type of engagement and other times where they spring surprises on the pilots... So much for "scripted".

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 02:28
by Gums
Salute!

Vilters is right about the ROE determining the outcome of some scenarios/engagements, but not all. WRT other opinions, I question actual experience in these matters from an operators' duty assignment. We can match up combt misions and number of Red Flag and Green Flag episodes, and number of times being the "mission commander" for the Blue side.

As long as you have humans operating or "controlling" the dogs of war, there is room for improvization or even blatant ROE violations! Imagine that?

The Red and Green Flags I flew in or helped from outside elements but not actually flying myself had ROE mainly about safety and "blue" losses. Red forces could re-generate in order to simulate numerical superiority. Some blues could be "killed" but continue the mission unless "bonged" by the exercise controllers. This was to allow the Reds more oppo to engage Blues.

My A-7D Sqd Ops Officer at The Beach sat across the desk from me ( I was Asst Ops and senior flight CO). So he was on the planning team for the A-7D/A-10A flyoff. He came back one day and told me and all around which plane wuld come out on top. Duhhhh?

I finally found an on line source of the Av Leak issue with my infamous letter to the editor that earned me a letter of reprimand. You may have to "register" with AvWeek and endure morning email , but you will be able to browse decades of Av Week issues at no $$$ cost. Sep 1973

http://archive.aviationweek.com/issue/1 ... #!&pid=126

Gums sends...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 02:50
by spazsinbad
McAdooAvWeek17dec1973 http://archive.aviationweek.com/issue/1 ... #!&pid=126 + PDF of exact page attached.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 07:58
by zero-one
@vilters

Redflag is supposed to simulate realistic combat scenarios, they don't make ROEs just to make the F-35 loose or a C-130 win as you put it.

and in every single conflict pilots are quoted for saying that what they saw in combat was exactly like what they saw in Redflag.

I'm simply addressing the comment you made where you dismiss traditional ACM as "World War 2 tactics".

Just because we heard a pilot say that he always gets shot down whenever he enters a turning fight, or a pilot say that being able to turn is the least impressive thing about this 5th gen fighter, doesn't mean we need to dismiss ACM completely.

There are still plenty of pilots out there that see it as a relevant tactic that needs to be mastered.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 09:15
by vilters
Red Flag to simulate realistic combat scenario's? => So there are Toyota's and mules with manpacks on the ground, Right?

Because THAT is the real enemy we are fighting in Afghanistan, Syria, Libia, Jemen, and the list goes on and on.
The last Air 2 Air war worth mentioning was between Irak and Iran from 1980 to 1988. And that's a long time ago.

OK, we have to prepare, we have to train, but we have to rethink how and against what.

What we are doing now is show.
My toy is better then your toy, and I can write the ROE's to prove it.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 10:14
by zero-one
I'm sure they train for low end conflicts too.
But to suggest thats the only thing they should train for is beyond me.

The Philippine armed forces crushed ISIS insurgents with Toyotas, armored cars, RPGs and heavy machine guns in 5 months.
So I guess we can just reduce the size of the US armed force to field OV-10s and F/A-50s and we will be fine.

The show happens for a reason, we hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
The things you are saying now are exactly what was being thrown around back in Vietnam.
The problem in Vietnam wasn't really the lack of the gun or the lack or maneuverability on airplanes. It was training.
ACM was illegal back then because they didn't need it.

Do we really want to make the same mistakes again.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 16:37
by SpudmanWP
vilters wrote:Red Flag to simulate realistic combat scenario's? => So there are Toyota's and mules with manpacks on the ground

They do CAS at Red Flags along with CSAR, DCA, OCA, ISR, and a bunch of other acronyms that most people do not know. :doh:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 22:03
by wrightwing
SpudmanWP wrote:
vilters wrote:Red Flag to simulate realistic combat scenario's? => So there are Toyota's and mules with manpacks on the ground

They do CAS at Red Flags along with CSAR, DCA, OCA, ISR, and a bunch of other acronyms that most people do not know. :doh:

^^^^^^Exactly. We train for full spectrum warfare. The principles don't change. Only the complexity. CAS is CAS. BAI is BAI. ISR is ISR. The only differences in training scenarios, is whether the enemy has robust C2, SAMs, air power, EW/EA, etc.... If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2018, 02:53
by wrightwing
vilters wrote:Red Flag, => LOL.
The outcome of ANY Red Flag mission can be 100% predicted when you read the ROE.
I will remember a RED Flag the day they stop writing those crazy ROE's.

The ONLY ROE should be : Min Safety altitude is ….. Area is yours. … See you in debrief. Period.

Red Commander should attack with a UNKNOWN number, and an UNKNOWN combination of aircraft (enlarge that to UNKNOWN number of weapon systems (up to and including the shut down of the power system of the range), at UNKNOWN intervals.

Blue should be on alert ON THE ground and scramble an UNKNOWN number of UNKNOWN aircraft.

The ONLY 2 ROE's common for Blue and Red is the min safety altitude, and the losers pay the bar bill.

All the rest is comedy capers.


The outcome is not predetermined. The aggressor aircraft, SAM threats, etc... don't just roll over and die. If you screw up, you get shot. The only thing you got right was that they observe minimum distance/altitudes for safety.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2018, 03:12
by geforcerfx
wrightwing wrote:^^^^^^Exactly. We train for full spectrum warfare. The principles don't change. Only the complexity. CAS is CAS. BAI is BAI. ISR is ISR. The only differences in training scenarios, is whether the enemy has robust C2, SAMs, air power, EW/EA, etc.... If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball.


Image

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 04:18
by geforcerfx





Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 20:43
by geforcerfx

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 22:32
by sferrin
2:35 was interesting.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 23:29
by geforcerfx
yeah the vertical at 1:30 was interesting, and that last hard pitch at 3:50 should shut up anybody about turning and power, lemme just pull a 180, accelerate, then go into the vertical, still accelerating, showing off some of those raptor genes.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 01:00
by jetblast16
Thanks for posting! 3:57 was insane!! Stubby can climb and turn! You can SEE it has a lot of power :roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 04:52
by mk82
Damn!!!! What a display at RIAT 2018!!!! Was the F35A flying with Block 3F software? Sukhoi Flankers......eat your heart out!! :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 04:55
by mk82
The F35A RIAT 2018 display reminds me quite a bit of the Flanker Air Show displays but with more energy!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 06:40
by doge
RIAT2018 Vortex photos! :D@@@@@

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 06:59
by gta4
Pierre Spray hasn't showed up for a while.
Image
This GIF is not edited, just in case Pierre Spray cries out loud:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6cptWIyOVU

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 07:01
by gta4
mk82 wrote:The F35A RIAT 2018 display reminds me quite a bit of the Flanker Air Show displays but with more energy!


F-35's energy retention is 20% faster than a CLEAN flanker:
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=52510

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 07:05
by gta4
So what F-35 has in its arsenal for now:

In the horizontal:

Very fast and tight J-turn
Very fast roll rate
Very fast energy retention

In the vertical:

Very fast and tight loop
Very fast climb rate

All these performance can be quantified (i.e. energy retention 20% faster than a clean flanker, roll rate exceeds 300deg/sec, etc)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 10:21
by saberrider
vilters wrote:LOL again. real LOL.
You tell me to remember Red Flag Huh ! => OK, I will.

One of the last red Flags the A-10 scored the highest number of A2A kills.
So? ? ? => The A-10 is the best A2A fighter.

That is how "real" Red Flag has become these last years.

Maybe the criticism against F35 it is help with this
Red Flag result (A 10 best in A2A) because of ROE.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 15:28
by sferrin
jetblast16 wrote:Thanks for posting! 3:57 was insane!! Stubby can climb and turn! You can SEE it has a lot of power :roll:


The roll authority at low speed there at 2:39 is notable. It's almost stopped there in the air but it still rolls right out. :shock:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 15:51
by Dragon029
The Heritage Flight team are apparently taking full advantage of the Block 3F flight envelope:

https://twitter.com/Oriana0214/status/1 ... 2650079232

Hanging with the pilot who flew the US F-35A (Block 3F software) here at #RIAT18 just a few moments ago. He pulled 8.9Gs. Said this airshow really let's you test the limits. (Also this photo was taken by LM staff, from today's flight). Ps it's a nice weather day!
Image

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 16:05
by jetblast16
2018 RIAT F-35A Demo -> brute force! I NEED to see this baby in action.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 16:38
by doge
Dragon029 wrote:The Heritage Flight team are apparently taking full advantage of the Block 3F flight envelope:
https://twitter.com/Oriana0214/status/1 ... 2650079232
Hanging with the pilot who flew the US F-35A (Block 3F software) here at #RIAT18 just a few moments ago. He pulled 8.9Gs. Said this airshow really let's you test the limits. (Also this photo was taken by LM staff, from today's flight). Ps it's a nice weather day!

3F and 8.9G!! :shock: :D I've been waiting eagerly for that! :applause:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 20:43
by mixelflick
Just saw 2 F-35 up close for the first time today at the Great New England Airshow

They weren't flying, but I was able to speak with one of the pilots. He flew F-15's for 7 years and has flown the F-35 for the last 2. Says 90% of things he does in the jet the F-15 can't do. The jet itself looks menacing from head on, like a spaceship from the back and somewhat pedestrian from the side. It's bigger than I thought, bulky would be how I would describe it. Yet sleek at the same time. Something about the smooth finish...

Spoke to an F-16 driver who was "Red Air" vs. the F-35. Didn't say where, not sure it matters. Said ground control told him exactly where the F-35 was, 1 o'clock 12 miles away. He said, "I pointed the radar out there and.... nothin'". You can't see the jet..". Now what I found intriguing was.... 12 miles? I would have thought they would see something at 12 miles, but apparently not.

Coupled with the RIAT 2018 display I just saw, a LOT of F-35 haters are going to wind up with egg on their face, and the jet itself is only going to get better..

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 21:45
by mixelflick
After seeing this and speaking with F-35, 15 and 16 pilots today about the F-35's performance, I feel really, REALLY good we're buying thousands of these jets... :mrgreen:

The jet has survived a lot of bad press, a lot of hate and a lot of misleading headlines. Yet it is as Chip Burke said: "When you talk to people that actually fly and work on the jet, they'll tell you its a game changer". Something to that effect.

Well, I spoke with those people today. And he was right...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 21:50
by citanon
The RIAT performance from another angle:


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2018, 23:38
by citanon
The B model drops in and hovers around for a while:


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2018, 00:24
by spazsinbad
I get an error message from link above, here is the working F-35B URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKdKHZ25Sfw

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2018, 02:07
by Dragon029
mixelflick wrote:Spoke to an F-16 driver who was "Red Air" vs. the F-35. Didn't say where, not sure it matters. Said ground control told him exactly where the F-35 was, 1 o'clock 12 miles away. He said, "I pointed the radar out there and.... nothin'". You can't see the jet..". Now what I found intriguing was.... 12 miles? I would have thought they would see something at 12 miles, but apparently not.


That sounds about right; looking up the public data on the F-16's APG-68 it has a detection range of 105km (56.7nmi) against a 5m^2 target. Doing the maths, against a -30dBm (golf ball) target it'd only be able to see the jet at about 7nmi, or against a -40dBm (marble) target it'd only be able to see it at about 4nmi. If you were an F-16 pilot you'd likely see the jet with your own two eyes before you can get a lock on it.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2018, 04:33
by sferrin
Dragon029 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Spoke to an F-16 driver who was "Red Air" vs. the F-35. Didn't say where, not sure it matters. Said ground control told him exactly where the F-35 was, 1 o'clock 12 miles away. He said, "I pointed the radar out there and.... nothin'". You can't see the jet..". Now what I found intriguing was.... 12 miles? I would have thought they would see something at 12 miles, but apparently not.


That sounds about right; looking up the public data on the F-16's APG-68 it has a detection range of 105km (56.7nmi) against a 5m^2 target. Doing the maths, against a -30dBm (golf ball) target it'd only be able to see the jet at about 7nmi, or against a -40dBm (marble) target it'd only be able to see it at about 4nmi. If you were an F-16 pilot you'd likely see the jet with your own two eyes before you can get a lock on it.


Reminds of the F-15 exchange pilot who stated he couldn't lock onto an F-22 he could see out the front of his canopy. :lmao:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2018, 15:40
by quicksilver
C'mon guys. The people who actually fly the thing have been telling the public for years how incredibly good this jet is; the new Heritage flight guy flies for a few minutes at RIAT and the sun now rises in the west??

Paris was very scripted (tight airspace box, demo time limits etc). This was a bit more 'operational' in flavor; it felt like -'let's just go rip-sh_t around the airfield for a bit' (although we know that's certainly not the case).

Another round of 'told ya so's' are in order and I'll bet you can find a few people in Fort Worth who are buyin'.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2018, 19:16
by geforcerfx


another camera, bit closer in

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 07:53
by marsavian
Impressive display showing the high energy and excellent nose pointing ability. It can do maneuvers like a TVC jet but without having to slow to a crawl to do them which will make them more operationally useful. Idiots like Sprey need to make a public apology with their simplistic FUD now being exposed for the BS it always was. The F-35 dynamically has a nice blend of F-22/F-16/F-18 qualities that altogether will actually make it an aggressive dogfighter rather than a sitting duck victim as the FUDsters falsely claimed for years. With that RIAT display you can now visualize what the Norwegian Pilot 'Dolby' was talking about in his analysis of his ACM experiences with the jet.

http://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampfl ... ed-so-far/

p.s. the dogfighting is still only a tertiary level parameter after the stealth and situational awareness which is another major problem with this backward obsession all these FUDsters have had with it. So wrong on all counts !
As the 21st century generic cheapest most advanced successor to the ubiquitous F-16 it really does deliver !

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 08:05
by Corsair1963
Yes, time for the F-35 Critics to face the music! :wink:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 13:02
by mixelflick
I forgot one thing the F-35 at the airshow said that really registered...

Now these boys were from Eglin, and the airshow was in MA. He stated they came up the day before and although they stopped to refuel once, they (there were 2) could have made it non-stop, no problem.

I guess 18,000lbs of fuel has its advantages. Same pilot said the F-22 has far less loiter time, but I suppose that really depends on how you fly the jet, how close to the front you're based etc. He also said the F-35's legs were far and away superior to the F-15, which was the aircraft he was coming from..

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 14:29
by zero-one
This might be just me but sometimes I find American demo pilots to be too concerned with their Energy state.
A lot of extending all throughout. I guess this is just how the pilots are trained to fly and maneuver and its bleeding into their airshow routines.

keeping your energy up is definitely the most tactically relevant way of maneuvering your aircraft. But for an airshow where no one is trying to kill you, maybe looking good can get ahead of what is actually good. Just like how movies prefer flashy, acrobatic hand to hand combat over more realistic take downs.

Take for example, I always read from airshow enthusiast that the best Viper demo is the Greek one, or the Turkish one, best Hornet demo is from the Swiss. When you watch it, theres a lot of unnecessary rolls and reversals, he's probably flying around a hundred knots slower than the Nelis guys, but it sure looks good on camera. This makes me excited on how the Europeans will employ the F-35A on their demos.

There are exceptions. I remember watching an Eagle demo done in Russia from the USAF Eagle demo team, that one was specially aggressive. Raptor demo in RIAT 2009 was also exceptional.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 16:13
by SpudmanWP
mixelflick wrote:Now these boys were from Eglin, and the airshow was in MA. He stated they came up the day before and although they stopped to refuel once, they (there were 2) could have made it non-stop, no problem.


Yup as they could have flown there (977nmi) and more than half of way back (another 503nmi) on a single tank :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 16:45
by sferrin
zero-one wrote:There are exceptions. I remember watching an Eagle demo done in Russia from the USAF Eagle demo team, that one was specially aggressive. Raptor demo in RIAT 2009 was also exceptional.


That the one where the Eagle lost part of a vertical stab skin? :shock:


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 17:00
by gta4
Emmm... can't turn, can't climb, can't run
F-35 turn and climb.gif


original video:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2018, 17:29
by zero-one
sferrin wrote:That the one where the Eagle lost part of a vertical stab skin? :shock:


I can't watch the video, but yes Thats definitely it. Why was this particular Eagle demo so aggressive anyway?
Sending a message to all the Russians that, hey just because you can do them fancy Cobra's don't mean you can out dogfight this old dog just yet.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 19:12
by magitsu
For comparison: This was awarded with the (best individual flying display) Sir Douglas Bader Trophy in RIAT 2018.
https://ilmavoimat.fi/en/article/-/asse ... itanniassa


The Swiss one seems at least as good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abqQ1OBjWsk

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 21:58
by saberrider
magitsu wrote:For comparison: This was awarded with the (best individual flying display) Sir Douglas Bader Trophy in RIAT 2018.
https://ilmavoimat.fi/en/article/-/asse ... itanniassa


The Swiss one seems at least as good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abqQ1OBjWsk
For me Belgium with F16 was very good .But don't see Turkish solo eniwere.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 23:55
by magitsu
saberrider wrote:For me Belgium with F16 was very good .But don't see Turkish solo eniwere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7Uke2iTaVw

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 00:22
by quicksilver
“This might be just me but sometimes I find American demo pilots to be too concerned with their Energy state.”

You’re right; it’s just you.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 00:50
by citanon
If you guys still aren't sick of seeing the RIAT F35, this one has probably the clearest 4K video:


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 05:04
by geforcerfx
citanon wrote:If you guys still aren't sick of seeing the RIAT F35, this one has probably the clearest 4K video:



Nice find, he got that over the top pull perfectly, overall just a great job with camera in that one.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 05:22
by gta4
citanon wrote:If you guys still aren't sick of seeing the RIAT F35, this one has probably the clearest 4K video:



Much better scripted than 2017 Paris airshow. This time the maneuvers are scripted to show off its tight turn (followed by vertical climb) multiple times (1:10, 2:58, 3:20). I think it is scripted like this intentionally.

Seems like an answer to the widely spread "can't turn, can't climb"

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 05:31
by gta4
Hope these GIFs could help you guys piss F35 haters off.
Image
Image

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 05:59
by citanon
By the way guys, the RIAT performance was with the 3F software. The pilot stated he pulled 8.9g.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 06:02
by citanon
gta4 wrote:
citanon wrote:If you guys still aren't sick of seeing the RIAT F35, this one has probably the clearest 4K video:



Much better scripted than 2017 Paris airshow. This time the maneuvers are scripted to show off its tight turn (followed by vertical climb) multiple times (1:10, 2:58, 3:20). I think it is scripted like this intentionally.

Seems like an answer to the widely spread "can't turn, can't climb"



I suspect this being the heritage flying team's first unrestricted outing, they had put together one hat trick and decided to run it multiple times. As the year goes on we are probably going to see more fancy moves added to their routine.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 06:03
by gta4
citanon wrote:By the way guys, the RIAT performance was with the 3F software. The pilot stated he pulled 8.9g.

The second GIF is from an old video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6cptWIyOVU
So it was still 7G limited.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 06:50
by citanon
Yeah. One of the trolls throwing shade on the video said it was "sped up".

Next thing you know they'll start accusing LM of hacking physics. :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 10:07
by zero-one
quicksilver wrote:“This might be just me but sometimes I find American demo pilots to be too concerned with their Energy state.”

You’re right; it’s just you.


come on. You can't see how much less rolling and reversals they do.

American demo's usually go like this:
1st routine -> Extend -> 2nd routine

Europeans are more like
1st routine -> roll, roll, and roll some more - > 2nd routine (with another aileron roll mid routine just because)

But seriously, This is obviously an F-16 covered in paper mache to make it look like an F-35. Wake up people :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 12:05
by quicksilver
zero-one wrote:
quicksilver wrote:“This might be just me but sometimes I find American demo pilots to be too concerned with their Energy state.”

You’re right; it’s just you.


come on. You can't see how much less rolling and reversals they do.

American demo's usually go like this:
1st routine -> Extend -> 2nd routine

Europeans are more like
1st routine -> roll, roll, and roll some more - > 2nd routine (with another aileron roll mid routine just because)

But seriously, This is obviously an F-16 covered in paper mache to make it look like an F-35. Wake up people :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


...None of which has anything to do with “pilots too concerned with their energy state.” It’s the “Heritage Flight” — within which the service has chosen to allow some fairly simple but aggressive maneuvering —not a full-blown demo.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 13:35
by zero-one
quicksilver wrote:
...None of which has anything to do with “pilots too concerned with their energy state.” It’s the “Heritage Flight” — within which the service has chosen to allow some fairly simple but aggressive maneuvering —not a full-blown demo.


I see, the Youtube video just said demo so I thought it was a real demo. I was wondering why all the high alpha routines were not included.

But I'm not just talking about this Demo. I often see comments saying American fighters can't perform the Cobra and other loppty loop maneuvers the Russians are famous for.

We know they can do it, theres an old video of a Raptor doing a Cobra and Rhino's do it all the time but for some reason it's not called a Cobra when they do it. I always say its because American pilots like fast and high G over ballistic maneuvers

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 13:44
by gta4
Well I have test reports showing F/A-18E/F can exceed 100 deg AOA and achieve 80deg/sec pitch rate, if that is called cobra.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 14:34
by steve2267
zero-one wrote:But I'm not just talking about this Demo. I often see comments saying American fighters can't perform the Cobra and other loppty loop maneuvers the Russians are famous for.

We know they can do it, theres an old video of a Raptor doing a Cobra and Rhino's do it all the time but for some reason it's not called a Cobra when they do it. I always say its because American pilots like fast and high G over ballistic maneuvers


Perhaps because American pilots train for war, and not for airshows?

From what I've read here and elsewhere, fancy ballistic maneuvers will all bet get you dead (e.g. gunned) if you try that sh*t in combat. As American pilots train for war, and not for airshows, they are not proficient at performing a Cobra at an airshow. Why spend the time on gaining that proficiency? And performing it at an airshow while not being proficient in the maneuver is a recipe for an accident, IMO.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 15:12
by zero-one
steve2267 wrote:Perhaps because American pilots train for war, and not for airshows?



Exactly. Thats what I noticed, they're concerned with energy state because they were trained to fly that way.
They're doing less un necessary rolls and reversals to keep their E up.
And most maneuvers they do are demonstrations of speed and power.

Heres an example, the USAF F-16 demo starts with a high speed run then a 180 turn followed by a Cuban 8.
The Greek Viper demo by "Zeus" starts with an inverted take off with a slight yaw.

Now most people will be impressed more by Zeus, but to me, a 180 followed by a Cuban 8 at almost full internal fuel was better.

The USAF demo is focused on demonstrations of power while the Greek one just looks good

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 16:29
by quicksilver
IMHO, air shows are entertainment. They lend themselves to sales hype and other ‘commercial’ interests, but also serve to educate, inform and often, inspire. Beyond that, one shouldn’t read too much into any of them.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 17:12
by zero-one
quicksilver wrote:IMHO, air shows are entertainment. They lend themselves to sales hype and other ‘commercial’ interests, but also serve to educate, inform and often, inspire. Beyond that, one shouldn’t read too much into any of them.



I agree with that. I'm not saying Europeans or Russians have better airshows or anything like that.
I'm simply implying that the Americans seem to have the most "tactically relevant" demo routine.

They fly their demos as if they're engaged in combat. Heck even the video camera is finding it hard to keep up sometimes.

you might say that Russian airshows are choreographed to impress the audience and airshow enthusiast. American airshows are choreographed to impress other pilots.

Square loop vs Pugachev's Cobra? One demonstrates Pitch and instantaneous turn rates in the vertical plane while the other is simply recovering from a stall and watching a slow airplane get even slower. But you ask your typical fan boy and they'll yawn on the square loop while claiming that the Cobra can be tactically relevant.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 20:27
by saberrider
Viper employed tactically should not be seen , because is a little jet and slim . Best corner speed @480 Knots down to 360 then extending thanks to GE powerful engine.How to enjoy at an airshow if come and go quickly.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 22:34
by sferrin
gta4 wrote:Well I have test reports showing F/A-18E/F can exceed 100 deg AOA and achieve 80deg/sec pitch rate, if that is called cobra.


The YF-17 Cobra was actually able to do it back in the 70s.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 02:23
by firebase99
sferrin wrote:
zero-one wrote:There are exceptions. I remember watching an Eagle demo done in Russia from the USAF Eagle demo team, that one was specially aggressive. Raptor demo in RIAT 2009 was also exceptional.


That the one where the Eagle lost part of a vertical stab skin? :shock:



Something about a clean Eagle transitioning into the vertical in full re-heat gives me goose bumps. First time I ever saw an F-15 in person at a local airshow in the mid 80's. He was doing his thing, unloaded, gave it some smash, pulled into the vertical, thinking he was gonna do an Immelman but nope....just....kept....going.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 13:02
by mk82
lrrpf52 wrote:Airshows bring the most entertainment to the spastic kid bouncing up and down while screeching louder than an F-4 in full burner. They have very little to do with actual combat performance, and I think we all know this.

The Russians seem to satisfy that type of audience better than anyone else, especially knowing that you're likely to see their ejection systems at work.

A Sukhoi design bureau engineer said it best in response to a radio host interviewing him, when he brought up the Cobra maneuver. The engineer cut him off quickly...

"Sasha, Sasha. Listen. Airshows are for school-aged child to watch and get excitement. They have nothing to do with real combat."


Lol!!!!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 18:48
by geforcerfx
So looking at pictures of the heritage team last year and earlier this year they flew 5036-5037 F-35A's, RIAT was 5164, so Block 3F seems very much confirmed for RIAT.

Edit: looking at the database, 5164 was delivered earlier this year, talk about brand new lol.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 19 Jul 2018, 23:23
by mixelflick
firebase99 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
zero-one wrote:There are exceptions. I remember watching an Eagle demo done in Russia from the USAF Eagle demo team, that one was specially aggressive. Raptor demo in RIAT 2009 was also exceptional.


That the one where the Eagle lost part of a vertical stab skin? :shock:



Something about a clean Eagle transitioning into the vertical in full re-heat gives me goose bumps. First time I ever saw an F-15 in person at a local airshow in the mid 80's. He was doing his thing, unloaded, gave it some smash, pulled into the vertical, thinking he was gonna do an Immelman but nope....just....kept....going.


Ditto for me. Saw my first Eagle demo in 1987, the boys from Langley came to Westfield MA and I was... in awe. Seemed to go higher and climb faster than anything else, even the F-16 which I had seen prior. At that time, there wasn't any info on Fulcrums or Flankers. Even at that age, I knew it far outclassed the Mig-21, 23 and 25. As far as I was concerned, it was the best in the world. And in 1987, it just may have been...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 02:20
by gta4
citanon wrote:If you guys still aren't sick of seeing the RIAT F35, this one has probably the clearest 4K video:


I would say even in the eyes of a layman (a spectator), this video is far more aggressive and exciting than the Su-27 display at RIAT.

Not fair to compare it with Su-35 since Su-35 has thrust vectoring. This is probably the best display you could get for a non-TVC jet. Anyway, I have never seen a Su-35 make a reversal as aggressively as F-35 does at 3:20 in this video.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2018, 04:56
by steve2267
gta4 wrote: This is probably the best display you could get for a non-TVC jet. Anyway, I have never seen a Su-35 make a reversal as aggressively as F-35 does at 3:20 in this video.


The roll and pitch at 3:10 caught my eye, especially that pitch (3:12 or so).

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 09:01
by zero-one
To me an airshow highlights an aircraft's flight performance under ideal conditions. (clean, sea level). Difference is 5th gens can go to combat at ideal conditions or very close to it.

Someone compared the sustained turn routine of the Viper to the F-35. Notice how the F-35 completes it's 180 much faster than the F-16. And even if the Viper leveled out first (partly because the F-35 looks like it stayed in the turn a little longer after completing the 360) it goes to show that a clean F-16 can only slightly edge the F-35. Not bad for a plane that "can't turn"

And if I'm not mistaken, this was taken at a time where the F-35 was still limited to 7Gs.


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 16:33
by jetblast16
The F-35's performance will only get better as the F135 continues to evolve; possibly the introduction of a variable cycle engine

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2018, 09:21
by gta4
Post this GIF and it will end most F-35 haters' shit-talks.
F-35 turn and climb small.gif

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jul 2018, 23:39
by sferrin
mixelflick wrote:Ditto for me. Saw my first Eagle demo in 1987, the boys from Langley came to Westfield MA and I was... in awe. Seemed to go higher and climb faster than anything else, even the F-16 which I had seen prior. At that time, there wasn't any info on Fulcrums or Flankers. Even at that age, I knew it far outclassed the Mig-21, 23 and 25. As far as I was concerned, it was the best in the world. And in 1987, it just may have been...


This one is pretty aggressive as well: (5 sec takoff roll)



"I'm not even BS'ing you here. This was my jet in Alaska, F-15E 90-0250 with PW 229 engines and no pods or CFT's. It was one of two flight demonstrators for the Korean government. We did everything from ICT's, flight demos and even let them fly her. The planes that were chosen for the flight demo portion were rented by Boeing with their maintainers and test pilot. It was awesome. I guess the Koreans thought so too, because they now have the F-15K!"

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jul 2018, 23:43
by f-16adf
Back when I was a kid (80's) if you went to an airshow you just didn't know what types of aircraft would be there. There were so many different airframes (unlike today......). It was (almost) like winning the lottery, that is if you loved aviation and dreamed of being a fighter pilot.

I always remember trying to see just how many different variants of Phantoms would be there. Awesome times :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jul 2018, 23:46
by sferrin
gta4 wrote:Anyway, I have never seen a Su-35 make a reversal as aggressively as F-35 does at 3:20 in this video.


F-22 doing basically the same maneuver (2:38):


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jul 2018, 23:47
by jetblast16
Watching the recent videos of the F-35A at RIAT is beginning to make me think that the jet has a bit more smash (thrust) than the Air Force is letting on

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jul 2018, 23:51
by sferrin
jetblast16 wrote:Watching the recent videos of the F-35A at RIAT is beginning to make me think that the jet has a bit more smash (thrust) than the Air Force is letting on



They always say 42k-43k but I've seen at least one source say 48k and P&W themselves have said it's been run at over 50k on the bench.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jul 2018, 23:54
by jetblast16
Agreed. Watching one of its climbs is very interesting..the pilot terminates the climb quickly. The jet had incredible momentum; trailing con sheets / streaks were coming from its TEs. Looked like a meteor. Very interesting...a lot of excess momentum. Just sayin' :wink:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 28 Jul 2018, 23:56
by f-16adf
I thought the same thing with the F-35 (as with F-22). USAF probably wants to keep everybody in the dark as far as the 22 and 35 real thrust and actual empty weights (22 has an overtly flimsy nose-wheel for supposedly being 43K and change........)????

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 00:01
by jetblast16
Something doesn't seem to add up (at least to my non-aero engineer eyes / training)

The jet has a somewhat less than favorable inlet configuration (S-shaped to conceal the engine's fan from radar energy); the fuselage is very wide; it has a blunt nose; the wings are stubby; it supposedly weighs about 29k LBS empty and has a sea-level MAX AB thrust setting of 43k...and yet it can climb like a Raptor, at least in denser air for a time..

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 00:31
by fbw
sferrin wrote:
jetblast16 wrote:Watching the recent videos of the F-35A at RIAT is beginning to make me think that the jet has a bit more smash (thrust) than the Air Force is letting on



They always say 42k-43k but I've seen at least one source say 48k and P&W themselves have said it's been run at over 50k on the bench.


Doubtful. P&W has 43k on all specs I’ve seen. Besides that’s static uninstalled thrust. At or near sea level moving at a few hundred knots like at an air show, it’s very possible the aircraft is producing more than 43,000lbs.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 01:09
by sprstdlyscottsmn
As a reference, the F110-GE-400 was uninstalled static rated at 24k and change. Installed at 0.9M at Sea Level it was pushing 30k.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 03:10
by gta4
jetblast16 wrote:Something doesn't seem to add up (at least to my non-aero engineer eyes / training)

The jet has a somewhat less than favorable inlet configuration (S-shaped to conceal the engine's fan from radar energy); the fuselage is very wide; it has a blunt nose; the wings are stubby; it supposedly weighs about 29k LBS empty and has a sea-level MAX AB thrust setting of 43k...and yet it can climb like a Raptor, at least in denser air for a time..


I don't think F-35's wings are stubby. It has a sweep of 30-35deg which is lowest among all 5th gen, and its aspect ratio is 2.7 which is also the highest among all 5th gen. All these contributes to lift curve slope and subsonic turns.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 05:32
by sferrin
fbw wrote:
sferrin wrote:
jetblast16 wrote:Watching the recent videos of the F-35A at RIAT is beginning to make me think that the jet has a bit more smash (thrust) than the Air Force is letting on



They always say 42k-43k but I've seen at least one source say 48k and P&W themselves have said it's been run at over 50k on the bench.


Doubtful. P&W has 43k on all specs I’ve seen.


Apparently you know more than P&W themselves. :roll:

"Aerospace Daily & Defense Report
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — Pratt & Whitney is upping the ante in the ongoing F-35 Joint Strike Fighter engine war by revealing the F135 has achieved combat-rated thrust 20% higher than the specification. The disclosure raises the demonstrated sea-level thrust for the F135 above 50,000 lb., and follows results from the General Electric/Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team earlier this month that indicate the F136 alternate engine has in excess of 15% margin against the same ..."

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 06:13
by wrightwing
sferrin wrote:



They always say 42k-43k but I've seen at least one source say 48k and P&W themselves have said it's been run at over 50k on the bench.

Doubtful. P&W has 43k on all specs I’ve seen.

Apparently you know more than P&W themselves. :roll:

"Aerospace Daily & Defense Report
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — Pratt & Whitney is upping the ante in the ongoing F-35 Joint Strike Fighter engine war by revealing the F135 has achieved combat-rated thrust 20% higher than the specification. The disclosure raises the demonstrated sea-level thrust for the F135 above 50,000 lb., and follows results from the General Electric/Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team earlier this month that indicate the F136 alternate engine has in excess of 15% margin against the same ..."


Which makes things very interesting, when the next gen motors could be making 20% more thrust. That's already interesting, if the baseline is 43k. If it's 48k (or 50k+), performance will definitely be eye watering.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 06:16
by spazsinbad
Here is the teaser (where's the firecat?).
Pratt Raises Stakes In JSF Engine Battle
26 Aug 2010 Guy Norris

"Pratt & Whitney is upping the ante in the ongoing F-35 Joint Strike Fighter engine war by revealing the F135 has achieved combat-rated thrust 20% higher than the specification. The disclosure raises the demonstrated sea-level thrust for the F135 above 50,000 lb., and follows results from the General Electric/Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team earlier this month that indicate the F136 alternate engine has in excess of 15% margin against the same specification. Pratt & Whitney…"

Source: http://aviationweek.com/awin/pratt-rais ... e-battle-0

As usual a good answer from 'TEG' re above: The significance of the F135 exceeding designed performance 22 Oct 2011
viewtopic.php?t=16265 [SCROLL DOWN FOR 'TEG']

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 13:56
by fbw
sferrin wrote:
fbw wrote:
sferrin wrote:They always say 42k-43k but I've seen at least one source say 48k and P&W themselves have said it's been run at over 50k on the bench.


Doubtful. P&W has 43k on all specs I’ve seen.


Apparently you know more than P&W themselves. :roll:

"Aerospace Daily & Defense Report
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — Pratt & Whitney is upping the ante in the ongoing F-35 Joint Strike Fighter engine war by revealing the F135 has achieved combat-rated thrust 20% higher than the specification. The disclosure raises the demonstrated sea-level thrust for the F135 above 50,000 lb., and follows results from the General Electric/Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team earlier this month that indicate the F136 alternate engine has in excess of 15% margin against the same ..."


Apparently you don’t know the difference between testing to demonstrate future thrust growth and the current engine thrust. Tell you what, look through the spec sheets, the recent AAIA papers and find one statement that the current thrust exceeds 43k. I’ll do the same, want to place a bet who has more information?

Think before posting an obnoxious reply.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 14:01
by sferrin
fbw wrote:Apparently you don’t know the difference between testing to demonstrate future thrust growth and the current engine thrust. Tell you what, look through the spec sheets, the recent AAIA papers and find one statement that the current thrust exceeds 43k. I’ll do the same, want to place a bet who has more information?

Think before posting an obnoxious reply.


I have a better idea. How about you work on your reading comprehension before getting your panties in a wad?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 15:36
by quicksilver
It (48K) was "...testing to demonstrate future thrust growth...".

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 15:48
by elvis1
spazsinbad wrote:Here is the teaser (where's the firecat?).
Pratt Raises Stakes In JSF Engine Battle
26 Aug 2010 Guy Norris

"Pratt & Whitney is upping the ante in the ongoing F-35 Joint Strike Fighter engine war by revealing the F135 has achieved combat-rated thrust 20% higher than the specification. The disclosure raises the demonstrated sea-level thrust for the F135 above 50,000 lb., and follows results from the General Electric/Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team earlier this month that indicate the F136 alternate engine has in excess of 15% margin against the same specification. Pratt & Whitney…"

Source: http://aviationweek.com/awin/pratt-rais ... e-battle-0

As usual a good answer from 'TEG' re above: The significance of the F135 exceeding designed performance 22 Oct 2011
viewtopic.php?t=16265 [SCROLL DOWN FOR 'TEG']


Thank You spazsinbad (and TEG). The level of expertise on this forum is quite amazing.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 23:03
by mixelflick
I'll second the notion that there's more going on in these displays than meets the eye. It's performance after such tight turns going into the vertical is absolutely astounding. Very reminiscent of the Raptor.

Pratt really out-did itself with the F-135. It's the exact opposite situation the Russians have with the SU-57, and really under-scores how important the engine is in a 5th gen platform.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Jul 2018, 03:39
by element1loop
Recently someone within another thread said words to the effect that compared to WVR energy-agile fighting, BVR was comparatively a button pressing process (that effectively de-emphasises the need for agility, acceleration, high P:W, etc.).

I've previously argued that greater thrust and agility is necessary to fully exploit 5th-gen tactics. The BVR agility requirement takes the form of rapid direction changes, and aspect presentation management at and after initual contact and ID phase, then the "Orient' in OODA, for an open-flight to have the raw performance to quickly flank while still optimally managing VLO aspect and multispectral, to attempt to obtain a tactically desirable MDF-driven launch aspect and radius to the target's vector, to minimise detection of your attack. Allowing for optimal 'D' and 'A', within OODA.

Then using raw performance to maintain chosen tactical relative positioning and VLO-standoff radius to all opponents within the near fight (including ground aspects).

I would say this requires at least as much agility and 'smash' as the WVR fight. You're using raw performance to establish and manage relative advantages, electing to ruthlessly IMPOSE VLO, thus stacking the relative odds.

One other point, this may not be emphasised much as yet, but if a 5th-gen is eventually targeted and fired at, at true BVR ranges, a big part of negating that missile attack is a very early launch detection when combined with a very early and continuous, precise missile-nav trajectory determination, combined with outstanding F-35 relative direction changing, altitude changes, re-acceleration(s), away from the previous targeted missile fly-to zone. Plus high sustained non-AB speed after the re-acceleration, with fine aspect control (powerful yaw control, and continuous AOA management input) with the ability for high AOA HOBS snapshots, whilst using rudders to still minimise your relative signature level. Thus breaking target-grade 'lock' (if we can still call it that) and continually complicating the missile-nav flyout, bleeding missile energy, exponentially dropping PK potential, snap counter-launching to force a go-defensive response, thus making targeting updates and missile tracking and re-engagements even more difficult or unlikely (and all before the F-35 uses its other electronic and CM options).

In my view this is what accounts for the raw performance emphasis we see demonstrated in both of LM's 5th-generation designs.

Eventually a competitor will emerge which can target and track a missile at an F-35, at substantial BVR radius, but the performance to defeat it is more or less already present. The EODAS updates, combined with GO2 engine, ensures superior BVR margin, initiative and tactics (as will a fighter optimised DIRCM).

Slippery as catching a pissed-off electric eel in a bucket of snot.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2018, 00:58
by sferrin
lrrpf52 wrote:Either way, we're looking at a powerplant that rivals the SR-71's J58 by a substantial margin when looking at thrust.

That F135 motor is a beast fighter engine. It smokes the MiG-31's D-30F6 motors as well.


Optimized for completely different regimes. I'd be surprised if the F135 could touch either of those engines at Mach 2 and 60,000 feet.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2018, 07:10
by gta4
BVR is always agility demanding. You need acceleration and climb rate to maximize the initial energy of your missile. You need f-pole maneuver to break radar lock. You need high g sustained turn to minimize the no eacape zone of enemy missile.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 01:32
by jetblast16
I'd be surprised if the F135 could touch either of those engines at Mach 2 and 60,000 feet


I wouldn't be surprised if the F135 can make 25k LBS of thrust at high altitude in MAX AB. Further, as others alluded to here, the engine may be able to make up to 48k or so LBS of thrust in denser air at speed, with sufficient mass flow. That could explain the F-35A's exceptional rate of climb and thunderous noise of its engine.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 02:38
by jetblast16
I dunno, maybe I'm reading into things. I could be flat out dead wrong. Using public figures, the F-35A would have, at least statically (assuming 43k LBS is installed static thrust), a T/W ratio of about 1.22-to-1 with 6k LBS of fuel, at MAX AB. Without knowing how much fuel was placed in the jet, it is difficult to determine what it's T/W ratio was. 8K starting; a typical "airshow" fuel level?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 12:54
by f-16adf
I thought the F-35 starts its demo with fuel internal fuel (just like the Raptor). I am I wrong here?

I believe I read that somewhere (a USAF doc). Will try to find it if I have time.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 16:12
by geforcerfx
f-16adf wrote:I thought the F-35 starts its demo with fuel internal fuel (just like the Raptor). I am I wrong here?

I believe I read that somewhere (a USAF doc). Will try to find it if I have time.


That would be a massive waste of fuel, for 4th gens and the F-22 it makes sense they have fuel fractions near 25% the F-35A is 37% and would just be a waste of fuel having to haul the extra 9,000lbs around you don't need for the display. That's why most 4th gen demos don't have EFTs on for displays ( beyond the limited manuverability).

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 16:38
by f-16adf
I believe in the doc they said they wanted to display the jets in "near combat form", meaning not flying on fumes like all the other previous displays. I could be wrong. When I have more time I will try and find it.


Here is a 1993 demo of a USAF Block 50 from SW. Note, that empty the jet is 19,260lbs. Airshow boss says that for today's display jet weighs in at 23,000lbs. So basically this F-16C has just around 3500lbs of fuel (half internal load) for the display. He also has a centerline pylon on (177lbs). The earlier displays tended to be a tad more aggressive, his 360 only takes 17 seconds. Not the 19 seconds of present day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ9PipSKGl8

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 17:02
by fbw
f-16adf wrote:I believe in the doc they said they wanted to display the jets in "near combat form", meaning not flying on fumes like all the other previous displays. I could be wrong. When I have more time I will try and find it.


Yes, I read it too. 18,000lbs of fuel + inert weapons if applicable for F-22 airshows, less under specific conditions IIRC.
http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/produ ... -246v1.pdf

Found it Page 137

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 20:32
by f-16adf
Yes, I guess I was wrong.

Billie Flynn (AWST interview) also said the the 35 flies its demos like the Raptor as "Combat Coded", so technically what is the definition of that? He also said that their demos are different from traditional legacy jets.

Since half internal fuel is 9250lbs, is he flying with say 10-12,000lbs of fuel. Modern day Block 50's fly a low show with only 4K (56%)of fuel. And 5k (69%)for a high show. So I am figuring "Combat Coded" means at least more than either of those percentages; which on a 35 translates to 10,332lbs. and 12,915lbs.


Maybe the AF wants to keep everyone in the dark concerning this.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 21:28
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Combat coded just means the plane could, at any time, abort the demo, land, re-fuel and arm, go to war. There are no systems removed to improve performance, no special airshow paint, nothing of the sort.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 21:50
by fbw
f-16adf wrote:Maybe the AF wants to keep everyone in the dark concerning this.

Doubt it will be a secret. Once the F-35 complete IOT&E and is allowed to do airshow demonstrations in the US, they’ll develop a demonstration program with recommended fuel load and be added to regulations manual. Afterall, the F-22 is in there.

On an aside, always found it interesting that USAF limits demonstrations to 7.5g with momentary over g for safety (well at least as of recently). Likely for airframe life. So much for YouTubers “9g turn” comparisons.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2018, 22:06
by playloud
fbw wrote:
f-16adf wrote:On an aside, always found it interesting that USAF limits demonstrations to 7.5g with momentary over g for safety (well at least as of recently). Likely for airframe life. So much for YouTubers “9g turn” comparisons.

That caught my eye as well. Had the same thought on the YouTube comparisons.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2018, 01:10
by jetblast16
fbw wrote:
f-16adf wrote:Maybe the AF wants to keep everyone in the dark concerning this.

Doubt it will be a secret. Once the F-35 complete IOT&E and is allowed to do airshow demonstrations in the US, they’ll develop a demonstration program with recommended fuel load and be added to regulations manual. Afterall, the F-22 is in there.

On an aside, always found it interesting that USAF limits demonstrations to 7.5g with momentary over g for safety (well at least as of recently). Likely for airframe life. So much for YouTubers “9g turn” comparisons.


^ This

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2018, 15:13
by mixelflick
Speaking to an F-35 pilot at an airshow a few weeks back.... said it really has great legs. Much better than the F-15 he came from. Then said something about the F-22 like, "yeah in 20 minutes they're at their limit and have to return to base". Obviously, a lot depends on that scenario but my first thought was, "yeah, but 20 minutes is going to seem like forever to an adversary pilot. The F-22 can do a whole lotta' killing in 20 minutes".

He said, "true"... :)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2018, 16:20
by spazsinbad
:devil: UHoh!? (Teletubby exclamation) WATTLE THEY FINK OFF NXT? THERE WILL BE NO SCAPING Except the FUEL FOOL! :shock:

Farnborough 2018: Air display delivers new tracks 30 Jul 2018 Jenny Beechener
http://www.janesairport360.com/article/ ... new-tracks

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2018, 13:22
by aasm
fbw wrote:
f-16adf wrote:Maybe the AF wants to keep everyone in the dark concerning this.

Doubt it will be a secret. Once the F-35 complete IOT&E and is allowed to do airshow demonstrations in the US, they’ll develop a demonstration program with recommended fuel load and be added to regulations manual. Afterall, the F-22 is in there.

On an aside, always found it interesting that USAF limits demonstrations to 7.5g with momentary over g for safety (well at least as of recently). Likely for airframe life. So much for YouTubers “9g turn” comparisons.


Afaik it is a FAA regulation no?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2018, 13:23
by gta4
F-35 can turn, can climb and can run pretty well:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 22 Aug 2018, 06:03
by geforcerfx
skip to 8:50



Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 01:09
by jetblast16

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 01:32
by jetblast16
Another thing I have noticed with the F-35A displays, but have been too lazy to post it, is that the pilots seem to go into mid-burner, almost to allow their gear to retract, before re-selecting max power. This may hint at the fact that they are flying with less than full fuel.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 01:42
by spazsinbad
:devil: Jeepers that Major ate a lot of stringy string beans. How tall is he and how does he fit in the F-35A? :mrgreen:

I don't follow the comment immediately above. I recall the first test pilot to fly the F-35A AA-1 commenting that he had to REALLY PULL THE NOSE UP after takeoff to avoid overspeeding the undercarriage as he took off in full burner on first flight.

So I'll guess (if observation above correct) that pilots have less than full burner to avoid strangling the gear. Also they don't want to damage the only aircraft available most likely for subsequent shows. Now that makes sense to me. CARE Good.

:drool: VARGO MURADIAN aKs the LONGest Questions in the UNIVERSE. I admire the stringy stringbean major's patience. :roll:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 01:46
by popcorn
spazsinbad wrote::devil: Jeepers that Major ate a lot of stringy string beans. How tall is he and how does he fit in the F-35A? :mrgreen:

Or... the interviewer is a Hobbit :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 02:59
by Dragon029
jetblast16 wrote:Another thing I have noticed with the F-35A displays, but have been too lazy to post it, is that the pilots seem to go into mid-burner, almost to allow their gear to retract, before re-selecting max power. This may hint at the fact that they are flying with less than full fuel.

Maybe, but for normal combat training sorties (where you're launching will full fuel) the jet is supposedly capable of reach 300 knots under mil power, with a 5 degree climb, before it reaches the end of the runway. Most landing gears (and IIRC the F-35 is no exception) are only rated to 250 knots, so they'd have to be careful and do what you describe to prevent overspeed conditions.

https://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampf ... en-i-f-35/

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 03:23
by Meteor
"Most landing gears (and IIRC the F-35 is no exception) are only rated to 250 knots, so they'd have to be careful and do what you describe to prevent overspeed conditions."

F-16 max landing gear speeds are 300 KIAS and .65 Mach, whichever is less.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 05:40
by spazsinbad
Translate Norwegian to English below: https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=
:doh: Printing the English page to PDF has got to be the most excrebabble thing in all of WWW so deal with it. :doh:
Landing round in F-35
06 Jan 2017 Morten Hanche

"...We usually take off in "MIL Power" - full engine without afterburner. The machine accelerates smoothly and steadily in MIL. With afterburner, acceleration is impressive, especially now lately when it has been "cold" here in Phoenix. When it comes time to lift the nose - to rotate - for departure, I have to move the stick back about halfway, relative to the rear stop. Nesa lifts slowly at first, but evenly and controllably, when the nose wheel "releases the roof" (in the ground). It is easy to point the plane to the desired attitude for attitude and there are no tendencies to overcorrect.

When the aircraft is in the air it is again clear that the machine has a powerful engine. We tend to climb by between five and 10 degree increments - which is quite steep. Even in "MIL power," the machine still accelerates well. As I pass the end of the runway, the plane has happily passed 300 knots. (The airplane climbs ready right after takeoff with a five-degree increase of 300 knots with less than half-power. In addition, full sliding with afterburner is described as 150% engine power). I had the pleasure of being the instructor on the first flight to a colleague with a background of hunter bombs. He said so: "I did not think performance like that was possible!" (See it in the context of my Marine Corps colleague who said that F-35A behaved like "Hornet, but with four engines ..." .)…"

Source: https://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampf ... en-i-f-35/

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 06:24
by spazsinbad
The RTF file - masquerading as a .DOC file - is attached & meanwhile the text is below: [RTF not allowed here]
Fighter Jets blog - Landing round in F-35 https://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampf ... en-i-f-35/
Posted by Morten Hanche, January 6, 2017

Norwegian-f-35-one approach This is a message for the real airplane, with a pretty technical angle (you are warned). I'm writing about the launch of the airplane and landing round with the F-35A. I want to show that the airplane is user-friendly in connection with departure and landing. These are relevant features when operating from winter smooth runways in Ørland, with stiff breeze from the southwest, but without a driver in the back seat that can save the situation. Sliding landing with the F-35A is something we also train, but I'll get back to the side.

I wrote a separate post about "cockpit" in F-35 earlier. The impression then and now is that the "office space" in the F-35 is simple and open. There are almost no switches compared to the F-16, and the cockpit is dominated by the big screen in the front. Startup of the airplane is similarly simple; move a couple of switches and a couple of touches on the screen, so it starts to wreck in the auxiliary motor that generates power to start the main engine. Because the cockpit is so simple, I spend some time checking that everything is ready before startup.

The rest of the startup is also simple. The various F-35A systems "talk" together over a computer network. That's why there's not really much to do for me. It's a bit like turning on your PC at home. It starts by itself, at its own pace, and you must be careful that the machine says "please wait". In F-16, the startup was a long series of tests I had to get started and switches I had to move on. In F-35 most of the time is spent waiting and monitoring. What I spend the most time is to configure the big screen as I wish. (Sometimes I feel "shivering" away from work - I should feel busier!) While the different systems start up, I also use the time to tighten myself in the launch kit. If one of the systems should hang a little, the solution is usually the same as for a PC: Turn it on and on again.

When it comes time to "tax" the machine, it is usually enough to release the brakes. There is so much drift in the engine at idle that it is not necessary to provide gas on the ground before the takeoff runway. F-35 is predictable on the ground. The suspension is soft and gives a lightweight feeling. At the same time, the spring is not so soft that the machine is felt winding. The nose wheel control has two "gears" with different exchanges. One for taxiing in medium speed and for departure, and one for maneuvering in and out of the parking lot; "High gain" gives me tight turns without helping the brake on one main wheel as well (differential braking, as is common in F-16).

One thing I've been up to is that the F-35 actually rolls straight forward as long as I do not ask the plane to swing. It might sound banal, but it's a nice improvement that makes it easier to do "admin work" in the cockpit while I'm taxiing, such as studying the flight map. (Operating a fighter plane is a bit like typing smartphone on a smartphone while driving in close traffic on the highway; it's a lot to distribute attention. It's good for the plane to both roll and fly straight ahead.) It also helps when the plane is picking up Speed ​​to ease off the runway: Keeping the plane at the center line requires only few and minor adjustments with the pedals, and I avoid hunting back and forth.

Something else about "ground ops". It's time to get in the air. We usually take off in "MIL Power" - full engine without afterburner. The machine accelerates smoothly and steadily in MIL. With afterburner, acceleration is impressive, especially now lately when it has been "cold" here in Phoenix. When it comes time to lift the nose - to rotate - for departure, I have to move the stick back about halfway, relative to the rear stop. Nesa lifts slowly at first, but evenly and controllably, when the nose wheel "releases the roof" (in the ground). It is easy to point the plane to the desired attitude for attitude and there are no tendencies to overcorrect.

When the aircraft is in the air it is again clear that the machine has a powerful engine. We tend to climb by between five and 10 degree increments - which is quite steep. Even in "MIL power," the machine still accelerates well. As I pass the end of the runway, the plane has happily passed 300 knots. (The airplane climbs ready right after takeoff with a five-degree increase of 300 knots with less than half-power. In addition, full sliding with afterburner is described as 150% engine power). I had the pleasure of being the instructor on the first flight to a colleague with a background of hunter bombs. He said so: "I did not think performance like that was possible!" (See it in the context of my Marine Corps colleague who said that F-35A behaved like "Hornet, but with four engines ..." .)

We spend little time practicing landing rounds. Much because we have so far checked out pilots with solid past experience, but also because the airplane is easy to land. We usually enter the landing round from "initial point" or "IP" - a reference point that is in the extension of the runway, about eight kilometers from the track end. The landing round is flying at 1500 feet and 300 knots on the Luke Air Force Base. The plane is well between 300 and 350 knots, and it requires only between 20% and 25% of engine power to keep this speed. As we are over the runway, we break down to "downwind". My technique is to let the throttle be in the same position (20-25%) throughout the swing. Then I end up with a distance of about one and a half miles to the runway and 200 knots of downwind speed. If you have checked a bit more motor in the turn of the downwind, remember to pull back once the turn is complete. If not, the F-35 "run" will leave again at high speed soon.

On the downwind I put down the wheels. There is no trim change to talk about as they come out - the airplane continues straight ahead. First of all, more wind noise and a slight slowdown are noted. A fairly solid "bump" is felt when the main wheels are completely out. «Final turn» is flying around 13 degrees attack angle - "Angle of Attack" (AOA) - and about eight degrees 'dumps' through the first part of the turn. Initially, I pull "throttle" a bit back to establish a 13 degree attack angle. 13 degrees AOA provides a light "buffet" on the plane - a shaking reminiscent of driving a gravel road.

When I am established at the correct angle of attack, I have to support a little more engine, depending on how heavy the machine is and how tight the swing I have set up for. If I wish, I can now select "Approach Power Compensator" (APC). The APC trims the airplane to a 13 degree attack angle and automatically adjusts the engine power to keep the attack angle constant ("autotrottle" and auto trim). With APC, it's easy to land F-35; sight at the beginning of the runway with three degree "dump" .... and that's really (you have to lift your nose a little while the plane passes the end of the runway). The APC is especially useful because it consistently sets the plane at the correct landing speed. This is an extra security for a fresh and (or) stressing flyer.

Another feature that makes the F-35 easy to land is called Integrated Direct Lift Control (IDLC). IDLC 'lives' in the aircraft's Vehicle Management Computer (VMC), as a piece of data code. It's VMC that keeps the airplane in the air. IDLC uses the flyer's "flaperons" (combined balancer and flap at the rear of the wing) in a somewhat unusual way in landing: If the flyer retracts, IDLC will ensure that both flaperons are angled downwards. The result is a quick and direct change of the plane's path upward - you feel the plane is raising right away, and without the nose on the plane has moved a lot. IDLC allows you to easily make quick and accurate landing corrections. IDLC combined with APC ("autothrottle") works perfectly super!

Back on the ground again, the F-35A puts down softly; The chassis and wheels are powerful, and absorb a little rough landing. After landing, it's good to "aerobrake" F-35A - keeping the nose of the runway in order to let the air flow brake the plane. At the same time it is clear that the F-35A is more stable and easy to handle on the ground than the F-16. (I think F-16 is quite winding, especially in heavy sidewind).

It is also clear that the F-35A is more futile than F-16 in "aerobic". It is possible to "aerobrake" an easy F-16 to well below 100 knots. Between 120 and 110 knots, the nose to the F-35A drops down by itself, even with a full back stitch. As the nose wheel hits the ground, the airplane moves itself to "flaperons" and tailors to help slow down. In addition, the nose wheel control engages automatically. The F-35A brakes take even and are powerful. It is easy to brake and control at the same time, and there is little or no tendency for the wheels to lock on dry ground.

All in all, the F-35A behaves very well when landing, especially in lateral winds - something that is good at Ørland, where I mean to remember that it blows in between. (I've got to try in 20 knots lateral wind so far and it was unproblematic. The F-35A feels like a freight train on rails, compared to F-16 in lateral wind.)

A little more about Norwegian weather conditions and lateral winds. The Defense F-35A is fitted with a brake screen, just like our F-16. The brake screen becomes important when we land on slippery runways, and especially with high weight. Landing the F-16 with a sliding lead and sidewind can be quite sporty. At first, it is noticed that the brake screen turns the nose on the F-16 towards the wind like a weather rack. Over time, the brake screen will pull the entire airplane out of the runway. To keep the airplane on the runway, F-16 pilots often have to use full raids on rorpedals. It is not uncommon to cut the entire brake screen to prevent the aircraft from getting into the ditch. Our F-16 does not have "forces" in all cases to handle powerful sidewind on smooth lead with a brake pad.

So far, we've just tested the F-35A with a simulator's brake screen. Simulated results should be taken with a pinch of salt. We made our first experiences with the F-35A and brake screen in late autumn 2013, in Lockheed Martin's most advanced simulator for studying flight features. The results were good. So good that we politely asked US engineers to check again that they had modeled all the effects from the brake screen. "The weather effect" I described with the F-16 was hardly noticeable, and it was not necessary to cut the screen to avoid the ditch. We tested twice as much sidewind as the F-16 is certified. Still, we managed to stay on the ice-skating rink. We will not put two lines below the test results, concluding that the F-35A manages X or Y button sidewind. I mean nevertheless, it's a good indication that the F-35A will handle a lot of sidewind, even with a brake pad. And that's good.

So what? With expensive education, should we handle a machine that requires a little work effort? I think there are several reasons to have a combat aircraft that is easy to take up in the air, easy to operate as a weapon platform and easy to get back to the ground again. When our freshest F-35 pilots come home to Norway in 2019, after graduating forever in Arizona, they meet a quite different and demanding reality in Ørland. The weather and the terrain in Norway make you KNOW what you are doing. With F-16 we soften this transition by exercising with the two-seater (F-16BM). Our future F-35 pilots will never have an instructor in a backseat, who can intervene and ward off a situation before it becomes dangerous. Nevertheless, I do not think it is irreconcilable to introduce our freshest pilots to fly in Norway in our single-meter F-35A. One important reason is that the pilots through Luke's education are drilled in flying "instrument flight" in the simulator. The new simulator center at Ørland will allow us to do the same type of training even before the first real flight mission at home. This way we can prepare ourselves to handle these "administrative" pages of a flight mission.

I know that we in the Armed Forces will operate the airplane to the boundaries with regard to slippery ground, side wind and poor visibility. Therefore it's just as important that the airplane is simple and predictable to fly - and that's it! Because the machine is simple and airy, and in addition has a good autopilot, the airplane can spend more time planning over time and preparing for what's going to happen, such as configuring the plane for an instrument flight.

Outside the landing round, the F-35 is a weapon platform. The fact that the machine is easy to operate allows the pilot to concentrate more on the tactical work, and less about actually keeping the machine in the air. We get more tactical "currency" out of a machine that's easy to fly. Finally, this is about solving an assignment as effectively as possible while safeguarding security; both to take care of life and to take care of expensive materials. Therefore, it is important that the F-35 is forgiving, predictable and easy to handle on the ground, in the landing round and in the air on missions."

Source: Gaga Translate: https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 06:44
by spazsinbad
Earlier ALTERNATE Norskman to Engrishman TRANSLAT PDF attached below (must be somewhere else on this forum also).

FRUM: https://translate.google.com/translate? ... en-i-f-35/

Here we go Here we go Here we go: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=52507&p=359680&hilit=landingsrunden#p359680 ('Dragon029')

OOPs - DOC file wot is relly an RTF file attached below now from above translat today.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2018, 15:27
by jetblast16
VARGO MURADIAN aKs the LONGest Questions in the UNIVERSE.


He's passionate and thorough :wink: I like when he challenges some of his interviewees haha

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2018, 17:39
by spazsinbad
PHOTO: CHICAGO, IL, UNITED STATES[/b] https://www.dvidshub.net/image/4668300/ ... water-show
19 Aug 2018 Photo by Airman 1st Class Alexander Cook, 56th Fighter Wing Public Affairs

"Capt. Andrew “Dojo” Olson, F-35 Heritage Flight Team pilot and commander performs a high-speed pass in an F-35A Lightning II over Lake Michigan during the Chicago Air and Water Show in Chicago, Illinois, Aug. 19, 2018. The F-35A Lightning II is equipped with the largest single engine motor ever built and is capable of reaching speeds of up to 1,200 miles per hour. (U.S. Air Force photo by Airman 1st Class Alexander Cook)" https://www.dvidshub.net/download/image/4668300 (JPG 10.3Mb)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2018, 05:37
by jetblast16

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2018, 19:34
by boff180
An Italian F-35A will make the operators airshow debut at the Belgian Air Force Air Days at Kleine Brogel AB September 8th and 9th on static display.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2018, 00:07
by jetblast16


Aye, F-35s...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2018, 01:32
by spazsinbad
I like the burner kickin' in at about min 2:38 sec :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2018, 07:34
by geforcerfx
another japanese one


They seem to be enjoying there new jets

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2018, 09:26
by spazsinbad
Embedding videos does not work with IE11 in Win10. It works with Edge & Firefox though. OK there is an error message in EDGE now..... TAKE text string [youtube]-wMw6TWTp6E[/youtube (last bracket ] not used so you can see what to do).


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2018, 10:46
by mk82
jetblast16 wrote:


Damn!!! Those maneuvers from 3:59 till 4:15.......awesome nose pointing ability/extremely quick changes in AOA. Flanker (non thrust vector variants) jocks are eating their hearts out lol!

All the other Japanese F35 videos are pretty cool.....

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2018, 10:55
by Dragon029
Toronto got a nice demo yesterday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XotEU688eJ4

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2018, 06:23
by geforcerfx
spazsinbad wrote:Embedding videos does not work with IE11 in Win10. It works with Edge & Firefox though. OK there is an error message in EDGE now..... TAKE text string [youtube]-wMw6TWTp6E[/youtube (last bracket ] not used so you can see what to do).



Some how missed the - in front of the video ID, onto a different question why are you still using IE? Gonna have to move onto a modern browser mate :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2018, 07:44
by mk82
Dragon029 wrote:Toronto got a nice demo yesterday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XotEU688eJ4


Is that a Cobra at 5:07 :shock: ? May be a spinning Cobra :mrgreen: ......

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2018, 14:56
by steve2267
I didn't fully appreciate, and probably still don't, the Lightning slide (or whatever you want to call it -- climbing reversal, almost sliding in pitch) from 1:00-1:04 and again at 5:04... Combined with 9X, this would seem to be an almost insurmountable WVR post-merge maneuver. The effect seems to be that within four seconds, the Lightning has put itself into position to hose off a 9X at an opponent anywhere on the other side of a one circle fight, and also a two circle fight -- IF the Lightning's antagonist stays in the horizontal. The Lighting is also positioned, it would seem, to immediately transition to a pedal turn, with it's constant 28°/sec turn. It would seem that the Lightning, within about four seconds, has transitioned to flying a line perpendicular to, and very close to the center of its opponent's turn, if a one circle fight. And by being positioned at the center, and able to fly so slowly in the vertical with great roll and pitch command, the Lightning can easily track its prey and choose when to convert the nose directly on the opponent.

If the other aircraft decides to go vertical with the Lightning, I find it difficult to believe there exists another aircraft out there, other than a Raptor or another Lightning, that can take the Lightning in the vertical. It seems to me that the Lightning's prey is at great risk of popping out in front of the Lightning and will either get gunned, or eat a 9X (or maybe even a slammer).

Tell me I'm wrong. If so, then educate me as well as to what I'm missing or not seeing correctly.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2018, 19:56
by marsavian
Dynamically the F-35 appears to be able to do most of the sharp reversal changes a TVC jet can do which means it's less likely than a traditional 4th gen western jet to be taken by surprise or be put out of position if say a TVC Flanker pulls such moves as it can basically mimic what it faces. It also has enough spare engine power to not be slow at pulling these moves or getting in and out of them. It's going to be able to dance with the best maneuvering jets out there even if it may not be the absolute best in each maneuver but it has a wide repertoire of maneuvers so it won't be short of options in a dogfight with a good pilot and good energy management. Jack of all trades and a pretty good master in each.

I think its non-aesthetic stubby shape has given observers a wrong early impression as to how it will perform in a dogfight which it probably won't need anyway in 95+% of missions being a deadly stalking panther who will strike first and hard before the enemy knows what's hit them. If you are being truly impartial you have to be amazed at how they managed to pack so much functionally for so many customers in such a cheap relatively small package, it's going to be a global game changer in world air power in this century.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2018, 21:02
by sferrin
I can't help but wonder if there's some "pseudo-TVC" at work. The exhaust of the F135 will pull along air from outside the efflux, much like an ejector. (All engines do that to one degree or another.) What's different about the F-35 is the location of the Hstab. The exhaust itself comes close to impinging on the horizontal stabilizer and any entrained air that is dragged along will be available for the stabilizer to act against. Food for thought.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2018, 23:18
by wrightwing
I'm not sure if engine exhaust plays any role, but there are deliberate vortices, which provide airflow over control surfaces, at high AoA.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 01:13
by johnwill
Something else I've noticed that might act like TVC in those abrupt pitch maneuvers is that both trailing edge flaps can be seen to be up during the maneuver. F-35 wings are so far aft, the flaps seem to act as elevons on a delta. Here is an example at 0:08. I've noticed it in several other videos.

https://youtu.be/6Kg-ztkPDok

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 01:47
by spazsinbad
Screenshot from above video at 8 seconds at hard turn right - screenshot rotated left so that aircraft faces UP.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 02:26
by gta4
The most aburd thing is that F-35 can out-accelerate a clean Flanker by 20% in energy retention.
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=52510
Most high-alpha jets lack this capability. If Superhornet can get the 26,000lbs EPE engine it would become the third jet that incorporates high alpha and brut power (after F-22 and F-35).

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 03 Sep 2018, 02:41
by gta4
I am pretty sure one of those maneuvers is called "mongoose" (tight turn and go vertical immediately)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vRh6xnbOZo

And it is named after mongoose because mongoose eats cobra :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Not awared of this diss until last year.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 01:33
by sferrin
gta4 wrote:The most aburd thing is that F-35 can out-accelerate a clean Flanker by 20% in energy retention.
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=52510
Most high-alpha jets lack this capability. If Superhornet can get the 26,000lbs EPE engine it would become the third jet that incorporates high alpha and brut power (after F-22 and F-35).


They've been talking about that engine (and had tested it) since the '00s. But USN has never expressed enough interest to pull the trigger. (They'd prefer to exchange more power for more engine life.)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2018, 04:23
by 35_aoa
sferrin wrote:
They've been talking about that engine (and had tested it) since the '00s. But USN has never expressed enough interest to pull the trigger. (They'd prefer to exchange more power for more engine life.)


Also if you look at the history of the F404 EPE, the DoN basically just waited until it had an FMS buyer to fund the project (Kuwaiti and Swiss IIRC). It would be value added for sure, though I don't think it will fundamentally change the aircraft. The difference between an F404-400 and -402/EPE legacy is noticeable, but it isn't a new jet. I think the difference applied in the rhino would be a similar subtle change. But I do think that if it does happen ever, it will again be funded with foreign sales.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 00:26
by geforcerfx
35_aoa wrote:
sferrin wrote:
They've been talking about that engine (and had tested it) since the '00s. But USN has never expressed enough interest to pull the trigger. (They'd prefer to exchange more power for more engine life.)


Also if you look at the history of the F404 EPE, the DoN basically just waited until it had an FMS buyer to fund the project (Kuwaiti and Swiss IIRC). It would be value added for sure, though I don't think it will fundamentally change the aircraft. The difference between an F404-400 and -402/EPE legacy is noticeable, but it isn't a new jet. I think the difference applied in the rhino would be a similar subtle change. But I do think that if it does happen ever, it will again be funded with foreign sales.


I think the Navy picked the better investment with the CFTs, more weapons stations available and your not always hauling those canted 480 tanks. I would think the drag reduction would improve the acceleration over more raw power.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 08:13
by doge
Long vortex of F-35! :D @@@@@@@@@@

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 18:50
by geforcerfx
more from Canadia

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 20:08
by castlebravo
sferrin wrote:I can't help but wonder if there's some "pseudo-TVC" at work. The exhaust of the F135 will pull along air from outside the efflux, much like an ejector. (All engines do that to one degree or another.) What's different about the F-35 is the location of the Hstab. The exhaust itself comes close to impinging on the horizontal stabilizer and any entrained air that is dragged along will be available for the stabilizer to act against. Food for thought.


I had the same thought back when we heard about problems with the Hstabs getting cooked by the exhaust.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 21:54
by sferrin
castlebravo wrote:
sferrin wrote:I can't help but wonder if there's some "pseudo-TVC" at work. The exhaust of the F135 will pull along air from outside the efflux, much like an ejector. (All engines do that to one degree or another.) What's different about the F-35 is the location of the Hstab. The exhaust itself comes close to impinging on the horizontal stabilizer and any entrained air that is dragged along will be available for the stabilizer to act against. Food for thought.


I had the same thought back when we heard about problems with the Hstabs getting cooked by the exhaust.



I tried finding some of the pics floating around back then of an F-35 with TCs mounted on the inboard edge of the Hstabs so they could collect data. No luck finding any though. :(

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 22:13
by f-16adf
The F-35 is probably benefiting from the extra pitch from both its flaperons being deflected upwards. Hence acting like elevons. Look at that pic on the video a couple posts above, both are "up".

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2018, 22:36
by spazsinbad
I've seen a photo of the extra heat damage thingo on the HoriStab so I'll look for it. Meanwhile...

F-35 Horizontal Stabilizer Design Change: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=52704

And UP flaperons from previous page repeat: download/file.php?id=28208
When Money is No Object: the Strange Saga of the F-35
04 Mar 2013 Lee Gaillard

"...Structural Problems
In the recently released DOT&E report on 2012 F-35 testing and development, we observe that:
* High-speed high-altitude flight results in delamination and heat damage to the horizontal stabilizers and their stealth coatings (pages 30, 32, and 33 in the DOT&E report)…"

Source: https://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/04 ... -the-f-35/



Image

The RED TAB is either temporary protection or heat measuring device? https://www.terma.com/media/295277/glob ... ii_700.png

https://theaviationist.com/wp-content/u ... verted.jpg

Image

https://media.wired.com/photos/5933166e ... 99cf_b.jpg

Image

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 01:47
by sferrin
This is what I was thinking of:

heat.jpg

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 11:12
by gta4
One example of how F-35's sharp reversal may help in actual dogfight (check 00:25):

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 11:55
by gta4

Am I the only one who noticed the turn at 1:00 mark?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 16:24
by marsavian
The video scene from Stealth is a good advert for how fast very controllable high AoA maneuverability is useful when you are very close to another fighter and want to change angles and position sharply and gain advantage. Obviously the further away you are the less effective these maneuvers are as you basically just become a slower rotating in place target still in the line of sight of a conventionally turning aircraft. The Canadian video really shows how the F-35 pilots are really mixing up well conventional turns and climbs with abrupt high AoA reversals into potent overall maneuvers.

The unique advantage I think F-35 has was what was originally considered a disadvantage is that it bleeds speed faster from instantaneous to sustained to high AoA maneuvering so it can get to effective high AoA maneuvering quicker from higher speed than any other jet. I think this is what was meant by the pilots discovering what it could uniquely do and shaping their ACM tactics around it. I thought the initial critics would be proven wrong by the conventional maneuvering but I wasn't expecting the kind of useful high AoA maneuverability you only usually see in TVC jets although the F-18 also does it well but lacks the acceleration of the F-35 to get out quickly from that regime.

The teen series are still being made 40-45 years after initial production and will probably go on for another 10 years each. I can see the F-35 being produced for most of this century because there is nothing really being mooted on the Eastern sides that make it look going obsolete any time soon if ever. Block 4 will be another big jump with the IR sensors becoming twice as potent plus AIM120D and Meteor coming on line being longer range plus more tenacious with their two way datalinks. After that missiles with AESA radar, GaN upgrade for the APG-81 and more powerful economical engines will keep its ascendancy along with longer range standoff weapons.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 17:01
by steve2267
marsavian wrote:The unique advantage I think F-35 has was what was originally considered a disadvantage is that it bleeds speed faster from instantaneous to sustained to high AoA maneuvering so it can get to effective high AoA maneuvering quicker from higher speed than any other jet. I think this is what was meant by the pilots discovering what it could uniquely do and shaping their ACM tactics around it. I thought the initial critics would be proven wrong by the conventional maneuvering but I wasn't expecting the kind of useful high AoA maneuverability you only usually see in TVC jets although the F-18 also does it well but lacks the acceleration of the F-35 to get out quickly from that regime.


I think you make a good point about the quickness with which the F-35 can transition to high angle-of-attack maneuvers. IMHO, however, the real advantage lies in this HUGE toolbox of tricks and maneuvers that the F-35 hands the pilot along with the carefree handling that enables the pilot to fly with precision, or reckless abandon, and to choose whatever tool he wants out of that toolbox whenever he wants.

Rate with a Viper? Check.
Get the smash back like a Blk 50 Viper with its hair on fire? Check.
Radius like a Hornet? Check.
Nose point (probably better than) like a Hornet? Check.
6-8 second reversals? Check.
Imitate a Raptor at high alpha? Kindasorta - check.
Hit the disappear switch? In spades.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 23:00
by Gums
Salute!

Good points, Steve and Mars.

I would point out that we lowly Viper folks back in 1979 suprised our visitors from Miramar with the transition from a closure at 400 + KCAS to a knife fight without blinking an eye. The A-4 folks that came to Utah found we could slow and turn very well below 200 KCAS while maintaining complete control as they were in their last-ditch maneuver. But best thing was still have enuf excess thrusties to move a horizonal scissors vertically.( as could the Eagle in those days). The rule of thumb then was you could go over the top in a "loop" type maneuver at 200 KCAS or above. Hesitate at top and pirouette to get pointed out ahead of the bandit and then come back down for guns or a Lima shot across the circle.

Looks like the Stubbie can use that "rudder turn" at a ridiculous AoA and maintain altitude at the top of the zoom better than we could, as we had to come down on the limiter while rolling for a short time before reducing AoA.

I will guarantee that the Double Ugly, Eagle, Tomcat and all but the Hornet could not roll and turn very well below 200 KCAS without departing or shaking so badly you couldn't aim.

I like what I am seeing.

Gums sends...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2018, 23:55
by steve2267
Gums wrote:I would point out that we lowly Viper folks back in 1979 suprised our visitors from Miramar with the transition from a closure at 400 + KCAS to a knife fight without blinking an eye. The A-4 folks that came to Utah found we could slow and turn very well below 200 KCAS while maintaining complete control as they were in their last-ditch maneuver. But best thing was still have enuf excess thrusties to move a horizonal scissors vertically.( as could the Eagle in those days). The rule of thumb then was you could go over the top in a "loop" type maneuver at 200 KCAS or above. Hesitate at top and pirouette to get pointed out ahead of the bandit and then come back down for guns or a Lima shot across the circle.

Looks like the Stubbie can use that "rudder turn" at a ridiculous AoA and maintain altitude at the top of the zoom better than we could, as we had to come down on the limiter while rolling for a short time before reducing AoA.

I will guarantee that the Double Ugly, Eagle, Tomcat and all but the Hornet could not roll and turn very well below 200 KCAS without departing or shaking so badly you couldn't aim.

I like what I am seeing.


Gums, to make sure I'm tracking you... is the maneuver Stubby pulls beginning at 1:04 in the video that gta4 (re)posted above similar to what you describe? If I'm counting my seconds correctly, he reverses course in 6-8 seconds, goes up... spies his prey, wherever it might be, then leisurely rolls / yaws over and around into a gun pass or an X-shot? It just seems so effortless.

Question: Is this the so-called Mongoose? Or just an example of a velocity vector roll? I am also thinking this is a real life demonstration (i.e. not a NASA research dealio) of the Herbst maneuver / J-turn. I am thinking this is NOT the so-called pedal turn, which from the way pilots seem to describe it, are all done using the pedals. Well, certainly it is not a near vertical, descending spiral turn as flown by Billie Flynn @ Paris in 2017.

I stepped through this sequence frame by frame and noted some interesting, unconventional aerosurface deflections.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 00:20
by f-16adf
Gums,

How did you early Viper guys fair against the Hornet? A week ago I talked to a Lt Colonel with over 20 years on the F-16. He said that the Hornet is "extremely dangerous" from 300Kts and under. And that if any Viper guy doesn't bring his A game it is easily over. He said that he would rather fight a Hornet in a Block 15 rather than a Block 50/42 if the speeds get that low-

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 01:11
by Gums
Salute!

Only saw the Hornet tice and we both disengaged before getting into a fight - Red Flag and another exercise.

I would take the Block 15 or 30 with the big engines. Hornet had better nose-pointing ability when slow, as did the Eagle, so don't get slow.

Try reading "Mover"'s articles, as he flew both.

https://fightersweep.com/1494/hornet-vs-viper-part-one/

Gums sends...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 02:13
by gta4
I am very curious about how hornets/superhornets performed against su30mkms during their excercise in Malaysia. Haven't seen any report or pilot interview. Anyone had a chance to talk to a pilot?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 02:22
by vanshilar
johnwill wrote:Something else I've noticed that might act like TVC in those abrupt pitch maneuvers is that both trailing edge flaps can be seen to be up during the maneuver. F-35 wings are so far aft, the flaps seem to act as elevons on a delta. Here is an example at 0:08. I've noticed it in several other videos.

https://youtu.be/6Kg-ztkPDok


How about that the leading edge slats are pointing "nose down" during those maneuvers? It's fairly obvious in for example 0:06 and 0:16 of the same video. My gut instinct is to say that the wing is actually decreasing its AOA relative to the fuselage, to let the fuselage do more of the work in producing lift (perhaps to increase wing life), is that more or less correct aerodynamically?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 02:32
by steve2267
Extended leading edge flaps may decrease the angle-of-attack (the angle between the relative wind and the line drawn between the front tip of the airfoil and the trailing tip of the airfoil, but they also greatly increase the camber (curvature) of the airfoil, or in this case, the wing which can increase the lift the wing generates. Also, from an offline conversation with Gums, it would seem that the leading edge flaps can also have a great effect on buffet (i.e. lessen buffet). I would not read into LEF extension as decreasing wing lift and increasing body lift. Quite the opposite, IMO.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 02:54
by f-16adf
Leading edge flaps increase camber and add to lift.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 03:26
by Gums
Salute!

What Steve said ( mostly).

My GD FLCS tech document (from the pre-historic FSD days) is in the garage, aka "geriatric park".,
1500 miles away, as I am up in the high country for another three weeks +/- So this is from memory, such as I have left.

First, the leading edge flaps ( LEF) were not slats like the F-100 and F-4 had. They were like folding a percentage of the wing's leading edge down, and you can see that implementation on the Hornet, Sluf and many commercial airliners.

The LEF deflection was variable and had a significant mach input variable besides the AoA. I' m fairly sure we also had a bit of flaperon deflection included in the equation once at higher AoA. The result was we had variable camber for the overall wing that the air molecules saw as they raced by. Of course, once slow enuf and at a high AoA the suckers were full down. The plot of AoA to Cl did not have a sharp hook at "stall" AoA, and was relatively flat for many degrees of AoA. This is also seen with many swept wing designs and is really obvious on deltas.

Besides the obvious help that basic leading edge devices provide, the Viper LEF's also helped directional stability. So who doesn't like keeping the nose from slicing at high AoA, huh? That also helped the vortex lift by keeping those air molecules moving straight down the plane from nose to tail.

Gotta go.

Gums sends...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 04:08
by spazsinbad
:devil: Difficult to keep up with all this USAF NonNavAv slang 'bout FALCONIEs & stuff. However perhaps this DASH One? :shock:

https://www.filefactory.com/file/u1vvz4 ... Manual.pdf (37Mb) is helpful?

"NATOPS Flight Manual #1F-F16A-1 for the General Dynamics F-16A/B Fighting Falcon aircraft. This manual is dated August 14, 1995."

32 page PDF extract attached MAY BE USEFUL? About Flight Controls and things I do not comprehend. :drool:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 04:42
by gta4
I think the only way to stop those “f35 can't turn” maniac is to arrange BFM excersice against Russian fighters (flankers or fulcrums)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 05:48
by vanshilar
Yeah I guess I should've called them leading edge "flaps" not "slats" since they simply rotate. The thing is though, although they increase camber, in this situation the trailing edge flaps are pointing upward (tail up). So the camber doesn't really change (assuming the leading edge flaps extend downward as much as the trailing edge flaps extend upward), but the wing's overall AOA points downward. IIRC though more of the lift is generated near the front part of the wing, so maybe increased camber there is more important. Bleh so not sure how to think about this. It's been too long since my aero courses.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 05:55
by johnwill
Gums wrote:Salute!

The LEF deflection was variable and had a significant mach input variable besides the AoA. I' m fairly sure we also had a bit of flaperon deflection included in the equation once at higher AoA. The result was we had variable camber for the overall wing that the air molecules saw as they raced by. Of course, once slow enuf and at a high AoA the suckers were full down.



Gums, the TEF were not scheduled with AOA like the LEF were, but did move 2 deg up supersonic. That was to help reduce tail trim load and drag when wing lift moved aft a bit supersonic. Also supersonic, the LEF were fixed at 2 deg up, no matter what AOA was.

Spaz, thanks for posting the FLCS pages from the Blk 10/15 -1. Now we can refer to that when discussing the g/AOA limiter function, Fig 1-44 on page 1-126.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 06:09
by steve2267
vanshilar wrote:Yeah I guess I should've called them leading edge "flaps" not "slats" since they simply rotate. The thing is though, although they increase camber, in this situation the trailing edge flaps are pointing upward (tail up). So the camber doesn't really change (assuming the leading edge flaps extend downward as much as the trailing edge flaps extend upward), but the wing's overall AOA points downward. IIRC though more of the lift is generated near the front part of the wing, so maybe increased camber there is more important. Bleh so not sure how to think about this. It's been too long since my aero courses.


vansh, you make a good point about the TEF pointing upwards. I think we are into regions where I would want to be looking at wind tunnel data, at a minimum, before trying to make definitive statements about the effects of deflected aerosurfaces, esp. on modern military aircraft (>= gen 4) where FCL or CLAWs can and do deflect control surfaces in non-obvious ways.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 06:27
by spazsinbad

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 11:39
by spazsinbad
Just because it is available here is the graphic from the HAF F-16C/D Flight Manual Fig.1-45 on 1-126 (physical page 141).

FLIGHT MANUAL HAF SERIES AIRCRAFT F16C/D BLOCKS 50 AND 52+ LOCKHEED MARTIN CORPORATION 2003
https://www.filefactory.com/file/34ia8o ... Manual.pdf (16Mb) [Diagrams look to be IDENTICAL]

28 page PDF about same FCS Gubbins for the F-16C/D attached below.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 12:07
by f-16adf
I am certainly no Aero Engineer. But I can tell you, when you deploy Trailing Edge Flaps on a General Aviation plane like a PA 181 you will get a nose down moment. Obviously, a Cessna or Piper is not a F-35.


The Raptor's ailerons also deflect upwards like the flaperons on the F-35 (when under high G).


One thing to remember, a RSS FBW jet like the Mirage 2000 uses its elevons "UP" (although not as much because of RSS) when still pulling heavy G. And the Leading Edge Slats are down also. I am guessing the Leading Edge Slats add a somewhat "Up" moment that alleviates rearward trimming effect of the elevons. Meaning you need less elevon deflection than on a non RSS stable jet like the old Mirage III (which notoriously suffered from trim drag). FBW, RSS, and LES made the Mirage 2000 FAR more agile than the Mirage III.



(I believe it is best to get Johnwills and Spurts opinion concerning this matter)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 15:42
by sprstdlyscottsmn
I have my thoughts on this. I'll set up a post later.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 16:42
by Gums
Salute!

Thanks big time Spaz. Can review in a bit.

Jon-boy is absolutely right and I knew the flaperons went up supersonic and got my sierra mixed up. It's why is is nice to have the manual and not use 35 year-old memories!!!

So still not entirely accurate, Van. Sorry. And I'll stick with my pseudovariable camber explanation. Also, they LEF's varied and were not fixed. Sometimes they were up a degree or two, and the Spaz manuals may show this.

The Cat III additions to the AoA vs gee graphs are confusing, and I'll have to post later after reading what Spaz put up. However, my understanding was 18 degrees was the max and we could still pull 9 gees. Will check.

ADF is correct about pitch moments even tho the FLCS corrected to some extent for that to maintain the existing gee cmd, and manually lowering the flaps ( ALT FLAPS switch ?) put LEF full down and flaperons in normal landing deflection. The nose down pitch was there, and due to gains and AoA bias on the gee cmd, re- trim was required. But it was nothing like a conventional control system or design. The gear down control laws were hard to understand, and they were attempting to provide some amount of speed stability you see in normal planes where you trim for AoA and not gee.

Gotta review the manuals now.

Gums sends...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 18:02
by sprstdlyscottsmn
So, I'm just giving my hypothesis. It may be about controlling the separation of airflow on the back of the wing and improving the airflow over the H-Stab. I don;t have a wind tunnel model with flow visualization to test this, so I made a rough drawing of what I THINK MIGHT be happening.

The top represents a wing with no LEF or TEF deflections with an H-Stab in the "neutral" position seen in the F-22, F-35 during turns.

The middle represents LEF deflection only to show in an isolated manner the contribution it provides.

The bottom picture is what we see the Stubby Panther doing when at high alpha

airflow.png

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 18:45
by steve2267
Dunno if that's what it's doing... but I like your song and dance. Nice illustrations, well explained, and, IMO, plausible.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 20:07
by sprstdlyscottsmn
I don't know if that's what it's doing either. That's just what comes to mind when I think of airflow pressure characteristics.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 20:32
by botsing
With that high an AoA, TEF down and LEF up will also have less total frontal surface facing the oncoming flow.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 21:04
by outlaw162
The F-100 had airload slats, panels bolted together on each side on the C model and separate independent slats on each wing of the D/F models. They extended as a function of both speed and AOA, high speed would keep them in even at high AOA. Very similiar to the A-4 setup I believe.

The F-4C/D (B,N & J) had leading edge flaps with 3 separate sections per wing, 2 with BLC, but operated strictly with the flap handle. I don't know specifically how the F-4E 'slats' operated but imagine they were much like the AMF A-7 and extended automatically as a function of speed & AOA. The non-AMF A-7 LEFs were in/out actuated strictly by the flap handle but could be stopped at an intermediate position by manually moving the flap handle to ISO-utility while in transit.

The F-105 had LEFs that were operated strictly by the flap handle which had an LEF only position used for air-refueling and coming into the break at less than 500 knots. :shock:

The F-16 of course is a whole different wonderfully scheduled system so you could always 'be the best you can be'. :D One would think the F-35 AOA/G schedule is even more fantastic with all the accumulated knowledge to build on. It sure looks that way in the videos.

I was too lazy to notice in any of my aircraft whether the pitching moment under any given set of circumstances was up or down. One was generally to busy at the time anyway and generally moved the stick as required to sustain the desired flight condition.

I think the addition of the CAT III lines on the CAT I g versus AOA chart is confusing, and possibly misleading also. If you had strictly a CAT III schedule, not a comparison, with the CAT III AOA line straight up (parallel to the y-axis) intersecting G for a particular weight it would basically shift all the G available values to slightly lower AOAs, generally equivalent to slightly higher speeds. So as a wag I would put the CAT III 9 G point somewhere in the 13-14 degree AOA range, essentially a slightly higher required speed for 9 Gs than the 15 degree AOA for CAT I. JW or Gums can correct me here if necessary, but if not exactly correct, it was always convenient to think of it that way so as to not get into trouble at any particular speed in CAT III. This is why I think the AGCAS implementation in CAT III would be interesting.

Does the F-35 have a CAT III equivalent?

Of course who needed to read the -1 when all you had to do was plug in the AB and put it on the limiter. :D

(I did have one question that I don't recall the answer to....could you switch back and forth from CAT I to CAT III in flight or were you stuck in whatever schedule you took off in?)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2018, 22:11
by Gums
Salute!

WTG Outlaw.

ANSWER : You could fly with bombs and not use Cat III. There was lotta discussion about whether Roy would have cleared the ground if he had Cat I selected due to more AoA.

I recall the Sluf LEF went full down and only the regular flaps could be positioned by moving/bumping the handle outboard or some sequence. Great War story about that for beer call and newbie mistakes. And it supports the diagram Spurts posted.

Later. These old manuals are giving me flashbacks.

Gums sends....

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 01:14
by johnwill
outlaw162 wrote:
(I did have one question that I don't recall the answer to....could you switch back and forth from CAT I to CAT III in flight or were you stuck in whatever schedule you took off in?)


Yes, you could switch. In fact you were expected to. In the Section V Stores Limitation chart, there is guidance for resetting limits after all air to ground stores are dropped. If you were in Cat III at takeoff, after all a/g stores were dropped, you were to revert to Cat I switch and observe either Cat I or Cat II limits, depending on external tank carriage.

The guy that designed and built that chart fully understood the pilot-observed limits were conservative and could be moderately exceeded safely, but from what you said, it seems it was common use Cat I all the time. Had he known that, his task would have been much simpler. Yes, it was me.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 02:36
by spazsinbad
:D 'JW' I'm chuckling here... :mrgreen: Pilots will try to simplify Everything. IF IN DOUBT - PUNCH OUT! OR 'CAT 1 - GO!' :doh:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 02:52
by Gums
Salute!

The Cat III lines show that a huge portion of the envelope is "limited". So what the plane can/could do with the switch in Cat III means you have to be fast, as a general rule.


The AoA limit will hit you before the gee limit in most cases I remember. Looking at the chart, it seems bacwards WRT gross weight lines. In other words, I should be able to reach higher AoA while protecting me from departures or structural damage when not hauling the iron - closer to a clean configuration..Gotta do some mind exercises while looking at the chart.

Lest anyone think otherwise, more gee at the same speed results in a smaller turn radius. To get the extra gee at the same speed you have to generate more lift. And most wings increase lift with increased AoA.

So the Cat III limts were significant for some loadouts. And regardless of your weight, all you could get was 18 degrees AoA.

GUms ponders....

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 03:49
by johnwill
spazsinbad wrote::D 'JW' I'm chuckling here... :mrgreen: Pilots will try to simplify Everything. IF IN DOUBT - PUNCH OUT! OR 'CAT 1 - GO!' :doh:


Agreed. And what drove us to be sometimes over-conservative in setting limits was the desire for simplification of pilot-observed limits. We had to cover hundreds of different takeoff configurations, plus hundreds more download sequence configurations, plus fuel state, plus speed, altitude, etc, each of which had different real limits. To be simple, most of those limits had to be conservative, so the extreme cases could still be safe. It was a real challenge, since I had never done anything like that before, also very educational. It was also fun to visit Hill, McDill, and Brussels to get feed back from pilots on how we could improve the handbook with updates.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 05:30
by Gums
Salute!

And huge salute to John Will.

I feel this is a unique forum to have two dinosaurs that can be traced back to the 1970's for the design, development and fielding of a revolutionary plane. I am remiss in not getting here some of the pilots I know that were there for the actual flyoff and the FSD phase, plus those of us in the cadre of that first squadron.

One thing about a new plane in those days was the support of the contractors. They were refining the design and trying to correct our squaks. They also gave us neat pins, plaques, models and such. Heh heh. Being the academic dude, I worked mostly with the GD folks and the Pratt motor folks. They were great.

Later,

Gums sends....

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 05:50
by gta4
Deploying trailing edge flap does not necessarily generate nose-down moment. Take a look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShbAYXcN7og


I have also spoken with a navy hornet pilot. He said when TEF was deployed, the aircraft has the tendency to pitch up, which requires him to push the stick to trim.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 15:02
by f-16adf
When on take off and with deployed flaps (TEF) there will be no nose down because, the flaps were already initially deployed just before your take off (i.e. on the ground).


Deploying TEF flaps depending on how much IN THE AIR, increases the angle of descent, because flaps alter the camber of the wing.

When on Take Off (I cannot speak for military aviation) but on a C-172M/RG you can only deploy up to 10 degrees (mainly for a soft field T-O)for a maximum performance take off in a 172 has Zero flaps.

Now the reason why a 172 can only deploy only up to 10 degrees is because while flaps make lift, but they also make drag. 10 degree flaps on a 172 makes the most lift vs the least drag. As you increase the flaps (incrementally or do the five second count) up to 20 degrees you are making more drag vs less lift, 30 degrees results in much more drag vs very small amounts of lift, at 40 degrees it is basically all drag-

Even when you do a SF(soft field) TO in a 172 with flaps at 10 degrees or in a PA 181 with flaps at 25 degrees, as you apply power and start your roll and start your climb there is not down moment. But on a straight in final approach in a PA 181, and you put 40 degree flaps in, you will feel a down moment. But the key is that whether on a 172 or a 181 if you want a short field landing, you put your flaps in increments. 1st flap on downwind usually at the numbers, 2nd flap on base, 3rd or full flap on final.

I learned this the hard way when I was a student. On the last leg of my long XC, me being an idiot, I forgot to put in my flaps only until when I was on final. I was dealing with a 3100ft runway, and I just wanted to get on the ground. So I put in full 40 degree flaps basically all at once (PA 181 has 3 flap setting 10,25,40) and the plane went up a little, and nose angled diagonally downwards a bit. (Which the resultant was increasing the angle of descent because the nose was angled diagonally downwards). What was the lesson learned here: always use your checklists and your CGUMPS; they are there to help you.



On a military jet like the Viper or Hornet, the FBW FCS probably does all the work so the pilot never feels it. You need to get 35AOA's opinion on this matter.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 15:13
by f-16adf
Here are the flaps for a F-16.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 15:58
by gta4
One thing I feel regret for F-16 is that, it does not deploy TEF automatically in maneuvering. Only LEF is used.
Deploying TEF can greatly increase the maneuvering L/D ratio at higher Cl number, resulting in higher sustained G at low speed. I believe an experienced pilot can deploy it manually at the cost of other performance (control gain limited to take-off/landing mode, roll and pitch authority decreased by half, AOA limited to 18deg...). I think Gum can share more info about this?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 16:18
by Gums
Salute!

The TEF definitely moves the nose down, and in the family model they eployed along with opening the AAR door. This provided increased canopy clearance from the boom.

The first crash was a "B" and the pilot had not closed the AAR door, so TEF were deployed ( 370 kt for them to blow up, I tink). So he had more drag than normal trying to get back to Hill. 'course, his drop tanks had gobs of trapped fuel for the same reason with AAR venting. He came close, and plane hoit just short of the runway. i think if he had jettisoned the drops he would have made it. We also critisized his OT&E team mates for not talking him thru all possible reasons for not getting fuel to the fuselage tank.

Gums sends....

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 16:48
by johnwill
gta4 wrote:One thing I feel regret for F-16 is that, it does not deploy TEF automatically in maneuvering. Only LEF is used.
Deploying TEF can greatly increase the maneuvering L/D ratio at higher Cl number, resulting in higher sustained G at low speed. I believe an experienced pilot can deploy it manually at the cost of other performance (control gain limited to take-off/landing mode, roll and pitch authority decreased by half, AOA limited to 18deg...). I think Gum can share more info about this?


Lots of analysis and flight test went into evaluating this idea during Full Scale Development in late 1970s. Result? No significant difference in performance. The nose down pitch moment from the flaps had to be balanced by added down load on the horizontal tails. That meant more wing/fuselage lift (and drag) was required and also added drag on the tails.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 17:06
by gta4
johnwill wrote:
gta4 wrote:One thing I feel regret for F-16 is that, it does not deploy TEF automatically in maneuvering. Only LEF is used.
Deploying TEF can greatly increase the maneuvering L/D ratio at higher Cl number, resulting in higher sustained G at low speed. I believe an experienced pilot can deploy it manually at the cost of other performance (control gain limited to take-off/landing mode, roll and pitch authority decreased by half, AOA limited to 18deg...). I think Gum can share more info about this?


Lots of analysis and flight test went into evaluating this idea during Full Scale Development in late 1970s. Result? No significant difference in performance. The nose down pitch moment from the flaps had to be balanced by added down load on the horizontal tails. That meant more wing/fuselage lift (and drag) was required and also added drag on the tails.


Your were in the test and evaluation team?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 18:10
by johnwill
Yes.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2018, 19:16
by Gums
Salute!

John was a structural dude from way back. Probably was in for the fly off. We share several of the pilots from those days all the way to the “XL”.

Gums...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2018, 01:35
by botsing
gta4 wrote:Your were in the test and evaluation team?

Do you ever READ this forum? :wink:

Just lurking around will teach you a lot about these gentleman and the amazing accomplishments they helped to create.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2018, 04:43
by gta4
johnwill wrote:Yes.

Thanks

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2018, 04:59
by Gums
Salute!

Be nice, bots

Our profiles don't have the interviews or other bio stuff. And I wish the janitors would interview John Will.

Mine is easy to find and a simple Google search using "gums f-16" will pop it right up.

Gums sends...

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2018, 05:25
by botsing
Gums wrote:Salute!

Be nice, bots

Sure will Gums, my remark was meant in a positive way. ;)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2018, 15:27
by gta4
I have seen Russian jets making similar sharp turns (i.e. The "hook" maneuver of the old Su-35 with canards, not the new Su-35s or Su-35BM). I still remember the "wow"s from the crowd back in 1993 as Su-35 performed the hook. However, there are 2 major differences between Russian's maneuver and F-35's:

1) No matter how much angle Su-35 turns, it will be bounced back to original pointing immediately, neutralizing the total angle of pointing. It turns around 90 deg then gets back to original heading. However F-35 can make a reversal and keep the heading.

I think Su-35 lacks the ability to change the speed vector and the nose pointing vector at the same time, while F-35 can.

2) Su-35 drops altitude immediately and needs to dive for long time to transit to the next maneuver, whereas F-35 can pitch up and go vertical.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2018, 15:41
by blindpilot
gta4 wrote:.. Su-35 drops altitude immediately .. F-35 can pitch up and go vertical.


In fairness, as discovered by F-22 exercises, anytime an aircraft goes post stall maneuver, the airframe pivots around the CG instead of the center of lift. This always is accompanied by a tell tell "tail droop," and opens a window for counter response. (F-15's catching 22's) This is why the F-22's are now more judicious in their use of TV.
However, you do well note that even so, the F-22 and F-35 can accelerate vertically out of the post stall instead of falling from the sky.

FWIW,
BP

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 16 Sep 2018, 16:09
by saberrider
Gums wrote:Salute!

What Steve said ( mostly).



First, the leading edge flaps ( LEF) were not slats like the F-100 and F-4 had. They were like folding a percentage of the wing's leading edge down, and you can see that implementation on the Hornet, Sluf and many commercial airliners.

The LEF deflection was variable and had a significant mach input variable besides the AoA. I' m fairly sure we also had a bit of flaperon deflection included in the equation once at higher AoA.

Gums sends...

also had a bit of flaperon deflection included in the equation once at higher AoA. This is first time when I read about flaperons deployed at high AoA with out pilot inputs on Alt Flaps? How much deployment angle and max .speed are allowed to drop?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 23 Sep 2018, 10:03
by gta4
I still remember in the 2015 F16D vs F35 report the pilot criticized F35 for its low pitch rate.

So What happened in the past 3 years?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 23 Sep 2018, 10:46
by spazsinbad
Are you referring to the 'infamous' single test report? Aircraft are TESTED to be IMPROVED - no? How about that eh. You may recall that the test pilot said something to the effect that improvements were needed - were these implemented?

Are you able to read all the favourable pilot reports/articles about maneuverability of the F-35 variants? There must be at least 100 in this forum. DID you watch the PARIS Airshow video? I suspect you will never be convinced about anything.

F-35 pilots of the caliber of Morten Hanche RNoAF are believable however it is likely you and others do not agree. :roll:

'zero-one' original article 21 Sep 2016 viewtopic.php?f=58&t=52350&p=353053&hilit=Hanche+Kampflybloggen#p353053
Test Pilot Report, F-35 [VERY LONG ARTICLE BEST READ AT SOURCE + 6 page PDF of article attached]
22 Sep 2016 Major Morten Hanche, RNoAF

"...I fully expect the F-35’s most hardened critics to discount this article, regardless of what I write. However, some may choose to believe my story, based on the fact that I know the airplane and its capabilities as a pilot. I don’t make my claims based on bits and pieces of information, derived from potentially unreliable sources. They are based on experience actually flying and training with the jet for nearly a year.

My goal is to shed some light on airplane development and testing; why we test, what we discover in testing and what a test report may result in. I write this based on my own experience, both through education at the US Naval Test Pilot School, but more importantly through working with the F-16 and the F-35, both operationally and in test settings...

How we test a fighter jet
Testing of combat aircraft typically sees a distinction between Developmental Test (DT) and Operational Test (OT). In short we can say that DT seeks to answer whether the machine works according to the design specifications, whether the machine is safe to operate and what its safe operating limits end up being. OT on the other hand seeks to find out whether the machine can solve a particular task, like: Is the XYZ able to provide effective Close Air Support, in the presence of threat A, B and C?

The test program for a machine like the F-35 is an enormous undertaking. The contours of the F-35’s test program are described top-level in the Test and Evaluation Master Plan (TEMP), totalling 1400 pages. Each sub-test in the TEMP results in a detailed test plan for that event. Especially in DT, a test flight is literally planned down to the minute, in order to accomplish as many test points as quickly and safely as possible. Flight testing is an expensive undertaking.

A test program should discover most important errors and flaws. However, time and resources available make it unrealistic to uncover every single issue. Risk is mitigated by testing the most critical components, like the engine in a single-engine fighter, to stricter tolerances. The amount of testing is a statistically driven decision. We know that there are things we don’t know, even at the completion of testing. We also know that there are likely few gross or dangerous errors which haven’t been found.

Each error we find during testing is documented and characterized. The language and format used is to the point. The test engineer and test pilot type up their findings and typically describe the situation “in a vacuum” – without regard for how costly or difficult it might be to address the issue. Each issue is then related to the mission – how will this quality or problem affect the given task?

Such a test report might read something like: “The SuperToaster 3000 was evaluated for uniform heat distribution and time to crispy toast, at the National Toast Center of Excellence, with room temperatures varying between 65 and 75 deg F. The toasting temperature was selected by turning a dial on the front of the toaster. Even with full crispiness selected, the toaster’s maximum temperature was low, and toasting of even the thinnest slices of white bread took more than 10 minutes. During early morning breakfasts, the time consuming toasting process will result in cranky parents, the kids being dropped off late for school and correspondingly negative effects on their grades and later career opportunities.”

This mission relation was probably a little over-the-top – a little like how some media articles relate its titbits of information to an imagined F-35 mission. In isolation, a system may not work as advertised, but could there be a workaround? (In the toaster-case, maybe cereal for breakfast?)

Anyway, after the issue is documented, the errors are then catalogued, debated and prioritized. Test engineers, test pilots, design engineers and customer representatives are often involved in the dialogue that follows when something undesirable is discovered. Together, these will have to agree on a path forward. Completely understanding the issue is crucial. Alternatives could be a re-design, accepting the flaw, mitigating the flaw procedurally or compensating by documenting the issue better. The team will have to compromise when prioritizing. Even when developing a new fighter jet, there are limits to what can be fixed, based on cost, time available, test resources available and also the complexity of the problem. Altogether, development and testing is an iterative process, where adjustments may have to take place during DT, OT or after the system is put into operational service....

...When asked about my first flight in the F-35, I compared it to flying a Hornet (F/A-18), but with a turbo charged engine. I now can quote a USMC F/A-18 Weapons School Graduate after his first flight in the F-35: “It was like flying a Hornet with four engines!” (His point being that the F-35 can afford to operate at high Angle-of-Attack and low airspeed, but that it will regain the airspeed quickly when needed). Another unintended, but illustrating example on performance came a few weeks back, when a student pilot failed to recognize that he had climbed through our temporary altitude restriction at 40,000′. The F-35 will happily climb past that altitude...."

Source: http://centralblue.williamsfoundation.o ... che-rnoaf/

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 23 Sep 2018, 16:12
by steve2267
What happened?

I have never read of any changes specifically undertaken as a result of that CLAW tests. The aerospace "press" being apparently too lame, shallow, or just plain lazy to follow up on points of contention.

However, I do believe that test report that was "leaked" noted areas where the CLAW was too conservative -- where "they" (LM? the F-35 design?) had plenty of margin -- and recommended relaxing that margin somewhat. I took that to mean that the pitch rate could be improved.

Someone else commented here abouts somewheres to the effect: "well, duh, of course the F-35 is going to be at an energy disadvantage flying between 25° and 35° alpha -- don't fight an F-16 there!." So one benefit of this testing is that it would have made the F-35 pilot community very clearly aware of the flight control & performance characteristics of the F-35 in this angle of attack and energy region, so they know exactly how it performs there. Others here have commented that perhaps this is an area where the F-35 pilot will seek to avoid, only passing through it transitorily. That may be the case, or perhaps the LM CLAW engineers were able to work their magic and greatly increase performance here. However, we also have a multitude of quotes from pilots in the past couple of years about "learning to fly the aircraft differently" than the aircraft from which they came, how to take advantage of its strengths (e.g. pedal turns), learning when to "cash in their energy" to go for a kill etc.

I suspect it is a combination of both -- the CLAW engineers worked some additional magic, pilots learned to NOT stay in that alpha region -- either stay below it and maintain energy, OR when the timing is right to cash in your energy chips, go to 35° to 55°, as necessary, to get the shot, then relax the pitch and plug in that "four motor" blower.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 23 Sep 2018, 23:00
by marsavian
There have been numerous first hand accounts of the CLAW since that test being tuned for optimum performance as a result of that test and just as importantly pilot feedback during all the development testing. The now quite spectacular airshow performance of the 3F production model shows where that all led to. The F-35 looks more like a muscular stalking panther than a clubbed baby seal in the ACM realm contrary to what all the naysayers predicted. For a plane primarily designed as a STRIKE fighter that can also do STOVL LMT have still managed to produce one hell of a dogfighter. Also it's no disgrace to lose a dogfight to an F-16, most aircraft do as that was its main design point.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 02:16
by element1loop
This is just more 3rd and 4th gen thinking. And it wasn’t even relevant to the 4th gens given the lack of ACM gun-fight killing since 1973. And how many times does it have to be said the F-35 fighting involves, "I look over at you, and you die". We've even seen pics of how early and extreme HOBS AIM-9X turns are. High-alpha pointing is not needed in that fighting. Unless you plan to catch a rare case of bubonic-plague (have a gun fight) that is. Which, in a high-end fight, flying an F-35A, will only result from a series of very poor choices, which will see you "... flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog sh*t out of Hong Kong ...". Unfortunately "Mav - The Resurgence", is again likely to emphasize being the gun-hero, but even within the original movie the gun was defeated by 'brakes', and the kills were completed with missiles*.

So they kinda got that 'right', regardless. :mrgreen:

*AIM-7s and AIM-154s need not apply.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 05:23
by Gums
Salute!

Good thots Element. Especially about the Great White Hope missiles.

The Pk of all NATO missiles went way up after the USAF and USN experience in 'nam. Some was better training and a lot was missile improvements. The AIM-9L was a true game changer. Just ask the Brits that used it in the Falklands. I got to hear a debrief in person and the missile was very good there, with rave reviews by the Harrier pilots besides the one debriefing us.

The Slammer and the 'winders we now have in the U.S, are way better than what we had in the 80's. The other missiles NATO has are also way better.

The gun is fun, it is all-aspect, it does not require a complicated fire control system, it has launch and leave projectiles and you can tell if the projectiles were effective instantly! But it is a last ditch weapon. You don't need 1,000 rounds because you won't be saddling up for 30 seconds in a turning fight or engaging close-in unless surprised, and certainly not intentionally. I would like a few more rounds, but there's a trade-off with weight and volume.

Gums opines....

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 08:12
by zero-one
The reason why the dogfight or WVR in general gets so much attention is because its really the only place where they have a shot.

In RedFlag 17-1 all 7 of the F-35s killed were from WVR. Call it ROEs or respawned dead airplanes or whatever, fact is thats the only place they have a shot and you can bet that the brightest minds in Russia, China, N.Korea, Iran and all over are pouring hours into how they can get to that one spot where they can at least do some damage.

And in the history of warfare, far inferior opponents have always had surprises for their superior foes and lessons are always learned. Look at all the innovations the US Army had from fighting cave men in Afganistan

So to me, 5th gen mentality shouldn't be. "Stop talking dogfights because we don't expect to get there ".
5th gen was intended to be superior in all facets of air combat, air dominance achieved regardless of circumstance.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 13:49
by sferrin
zero-one wrote:So to me, 5th gen mentality shouldn't be. "Stop talking dogfights because we don't expect to get there ".
5th gen was intended to be superior in all facets of air combat, air dominance achieved regardless of circumstance.


Who is doing that? Both the F-22 and F-35 maneuver just fine.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 17:15
by zero-one
sferrin wrote:
Who is doing that? Both the F-22 and F-35 maneuver just fine.


Thats how they were intended to be.
Unfortunately, some, not many, but some people get ticked off when discussions about F-22/35 getting to the merge arise.
They shut down the discussion by labeling it "old think" or "3rd/4th gen mentality".

yes I heard Col. Chip Burke's statement when he said that if you're still thinking about dogfights then you're missing the big picture of 5th gen.

Thats true, 5th gen platforms are so much more than getting the upper hand in the merge. That is simply a small part of the picture but it is still part of the picture.

Both Maj. Dolby Hanche and Tailgate have similar statements when it comes to the topic. If needed, they can, they will and they'll win.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 18:59
by element1loop
zero-one wrote:Both Maj. Dolby Hanche and Tailgate have similar statements when it comes to the topic. If needed, they can, they will and they'll win.


1973

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 19:34
by marsavian
The Canada CIAS2018 full display with a close-up of the excellent yaw control at low speed and high AoA at 5mins 10secs.


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 22:09
by spazsinbad
:applause: Best maneuvers at about 1min05sec and 5min10sec. First one would have been gut wrenching but fun indeed. :crazypilot:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2018, 22:39
by popcorn
Impressive!

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 00:55
by geforcerfx
the Canadian performance was posted a few pages back.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 02:03
by steve2267
geforcerfx wrote:the Canadian performance was posted a few pages back.


That's what I thought.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 04:41
by strykerxo
At mark 1:40s there is a slight bobble, is this the plane departing and the FCS controlling or the pilot compensating.
Sorry, if already commented on.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 05:53
by citanon
marsavian wrote:The Canada CIAS2018 full display with a close-up of the excellent yaw control at low speed and high AoA at 5mins 10secs.



They need to come up with a snappy name for what's becoming the F35 signature move.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 07:40
by spazsinbad
strykerxo wrote:At mark 1:40s there is a slight bobble, is this the plane departing and the FCS controlling or the pilot compensating.
Sorry, if already commented on.

IF the aircraft departs at such a high airspeed at that time we are all in trouble - head for them thar hills yonder....

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 11:40
by gta4
citanon wrote:
marsavian wrote:The Canada CIAS2018 full display with a close-up of the excellent yaw control at low speed and high AoA at 5mins 10secs.



They need to come up with a snappy name for what's becoming the F35 signature move.


I believe that is called J turn

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 20:20
by strykerxo
spazsinbad wrote:
strykerxo wrote:At mark 1:40s there is a slight bobble, is this the plane departing and the FCS controlling or the pilot compensating.
Sorry, if already commented on.

IF the aircraft departs at such a high airspeed at that time we are all in trouble - head for them thar hills yonder....


I have seen the bobble in other videos, it just looks abnormal. Maybe not departing, but a hiccup.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 21:20
by marsavian
It's probably the FCS adjusting automatically as they have tweaked the software so there are no uncontrollable surprises. Even recovery from stall is graceful and ends in horizontal flight. The F-35 can be flown with abandon.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 21:34
by sprstdlyscottsmn
How do you know it isn't just the pilot letting off backpressure to reduce AoA?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2018, 21:50
by Gums
Salute!

Yes, Mars, likely FLCS control laws re: pitch or roll rates.

And as Spurts observes, pilots still matter.

Could also just be pilot easing off the controls if he didn’t like rates.

The VooDoo I flew a hundred years ago had a stick pusher that moved the stick forward using 28 pounds or s and normally would jerk the stick outta your hand. It activated on both pitch rate and AoA.

Viper rate limiters were very obvious.

Gums sends....

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2018, 01:40
by lbk000
strykerxo wrote:At mark 1:40s there is a slight bobble, is this the plane departing and the FCS controlling or the pilot compensating.
Sorry, if already commented on.

I first noticed it in Flynn's PAS routine, it almost looked like he was being sloppy with the maneuvers at first, such that he had to put in corrections. But I seem to recall someone noting that the F-35's FCS is designed such that it flies on rails, precisely going where the VVI is pointing, so I wouldn't be surprised if the aircraft is just making a rapid "fishtail" to cancel out any residual rate and arrive at optimal AoA as quickly as it can when exiting a maneuver.

I personally think the "bumps" make the F-35's demos look crisp compared to other aircraft.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2018, 05:16
by geforcerfx
SO the first Canadian video was his practice flight, the P-51 hadn't arrived yet and he was basically just out practicing maneuvers getting his airspace down.

here is the same camera guy and the full demo

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2018, 06:18
by spazsinbad
Looks like the PARIS Airshow graphic: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/09/25/poli ... index.html

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2018, 23:14
by sferrin
geforcerfx wrote:SO the first Canadian video was his practice flight, the P-51 hadn't arrived yet and he was basically just out practicing maneuvers getting his airspace down.

here is the same camera guy and the full demo


(1:22) DAMN son. :shock: That little slide there at 2:55 is pretty sweet too.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Oct 2018, 08:27
by spazsinbad
1995/2003 F-16A/B flight manual p.61 this thread: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=24622&p=401261&hilit=Difficult#p401261

OUT OF 1984 USAF F-16A/B Flight Manual PDF (10.6 Mb) http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/20 ... anual.html
"A copy of the USAF Flight Manual TO 1F-F16A-1 for the General Dynamics F-16A/B Fighting Falcon USAF/EPAF aircraft. This manual is dated 10 December 1984."

PDF: http://www.filefactory.com/file/1bsudsm ... SAF%29.pdf
OR
(best download speed): https://www.docdroid.net/bTPbYhQ/f-16ab ... l-usaf.pdf (10.6Mb)

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 14 Oct 2018, 18:41
by spazsinbad
Great colour illustrations: https://www.docdroid.net/Bifx6Fg/f-16ab ... -guide.pdf (4Mb)
"A copy of the Lockheed Martin Midlife Update #M1 Pilot’s Guide, 16PR14341, for the F-16A/B aircraft. Covers new capabilities and cockpit enhancements. Dated 15 November 1998."

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 03:19
by playloud
Apologies for the focus problems after the first pass. I took this with my phone.


Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 11:33
by ricnunes
Nice video there playloud, thanks for sharing it! :thumb:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 16:24
by lamoey
Darn! I was in the area, but according to the website the F-35 would only do the heritage flight, so I decided to get an early start on my 5 hour drive back to Galveston instead of going to the airshow.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2018, 18:10
by playloud
lamoey wrote:Darn! I was in the area, but according to the website the F-35 would only do the heritage flight, so I decided to get an early start on my 5 hour drive back to Galveston instead of going to the airshow.

Yeah, they had the F-35 do a couple passes before the heritage flight, and then a couple after. It wa