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Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 05:22
by gta4
citanon wrote:If you guys still aren't sick of seeing the RIAT F35, this one has probably the clearest 4K video:



Much better scripted than 2017 Paris airshow. This time the maneuvers are scripted to show off its tight turn (followed by vertical climb) multiple times (1:10, 2:58, 3:20). I think it is scripted like this intentionally.

Seems like an answer to the widely spread "can't turn, can't climb"

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 05:31
by gta4
Hope these GIFs could help you guys piss F35 haters off.
Image
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Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 05:59
by citanon
By the way guys, the RIAT performance was with the 3F software. The pilot stated he pulled 8.9g.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 06:02
by citanon
gta4 wrote:
citanon wrote:If you guys still aren't sick of seeing the RIAT F35, this one has probably the clearest 4K video:



Much better scripted than 2017 Paris airshow. This time the maneuvers are scripted to show off its tight turn (followed by vertical climb) multiple times (1:10, 2:58, 3:20). I think it is scripted like this intentionally.

Seems like an answer to the widely spread "can't turn, can't climb"



I suspect this being the heritage flying team's first unrestricted outing, they had put together one hat trick and decided to run it multiple times. As the year goes on we are probably going to see more fancy moves added to their routine.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 06:03
by gta4
citanon wrote:By the way guys, the RIAT performance was with the 3F software. The pilot stated he pulled 8.9g.

The second GIF is from an old video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6cptWIyOVU
So it was still 7G limited.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 06:50
by citanon
Yeah. One of the trolls throwing shade on the video said it was "sped up".

Next thing you know they'll start accusing LM of hacking physics. :D

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 10:07
by zero-one
quicksilver wrote:“This might be just me but sometimes I find American demo pilots to be too concerned with their Energy state.”

You’re right; it’s just you.


come on. You can't see how much less rolling and reversals they do.

American demo's usually go like this:
1st routine -> Extend -> 2nd routine

Europeans are more like
1st routine -> roll, roll, and roll some more - > 2nd routine (with another aileron roll mid routine just because)

But seriously, This is obviously an F-16 covered in paper mache to make it look like an F-35. Wake up people :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 12:05
by quicksilver
zero-one wrote:
quicksilver wrote:“This might be just me but sometimes I find American demo pilots to be too concerned with their Energy state.”

You’re right; it’s just you.


come on. You can't see how much less rolling and reversals they do.

American demo's usually go like this:
1st routine -> Extend -> 2nd routine

Europeans are more like
1st routine -> roll, roll, and roll some more - > 2nd routine (with another aileron roll mid routine just because)

But seriously, This is obviously an F-16 covered in paper mache to make it look like an F-35. Wake up people :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


...None of which has anything to do with “pilots too concerned with their energy state.” It’s the “Heritage Flight” — within which the service has chosen to allow some fairly simple but aggressive maneuvering —not a full-blown demo.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 13:35
by zero-one
quicksilver wrote:
...None of which has anything to do with “pilots too concerned with their energy state.” It’s the “Heritage Flight” — within which the service has chosen to allow some fairly simple but aggressive maneuvering —not a full-blown demo.


I see, the Youtube video just said demo so I thought it was a real demo. I was wondering why all the high alpha routines were not included.

But I'm not just talking about this Demo. I often see comments saying American fighters can't perform the Cobra and other loppty loop maneuvers the Russians are famous for.

We know they can do it, theres an old video of a Raptor doing a Cobra and Rhino's do it all the time but for some reason it's not called a Cobra when they do it. I always say its because American pilots like fast and high G over ballistic maneuvers

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 13:44
by gta4
Well I have test reports showing F/A-18E/F can exceed 100 deg AOA and achieve 80deg/sec pitch rate, if that is called cobra.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 14:34
by steve2267
zero-one wrote:But I'm not just talking about this Demo. I often see comments saying American fighters can't perform the Cobra and other loppty loop maneuvers the Russians are famous for.

We know they can do it, theres an old video of a Raptor doing a Cobra and Rhino's do it all the time but for some reason it's not called a Cobra when they do it. I always say its because American pilots like fast and high G over ballistic maneuvers


Perhaps because American pilots train for war, and not for airshows?

From what I've read here and elsewhere, fancy ballistic maneuvers will all bet get you dead (e.g. gunned) if you try that sh*t in combat. As American pilots train for war, and not for airshows, they are not proficient at performing a Cobra at an airshow. Why spend the time on gaining that proficiency? And performing it at an airshow while not being proficient in the maneuver is a recipe for an accident, IMO.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 15:12
by zero-one
steve2267 wrote:Perhaps because American pilots train for war, and not for airshows?



Exactly. Thats what I noticed, they're concerned with energy state because they were trained to fly that way.
They're doing less un necessary rolls and reversals to keep their E up.
And most maneuvers they do are demonstrations of speed and power.

Heres an example, the USAF F-16 demo starts with a high speed run then a 180 turn followed by a Cuban 8.
The Greek Viper demo by "Zeus" starts with an inverted take off with a slight yaw.

Now most people will be impressed more by Zeus, but to me, a 180 followed by a Cuban 8 at almost full internal fuel was better.

The USAF demo is focused on demonstrations of power while the Greek one just looks good

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 16:29
by quicksilver
IMHO, air shows are entertainment. They lend themselves to sales hype and other ‘commercial’ interests, but also serve to educate, inform and often, inspire. Beyond that, one shouldn’t read too much into any of them.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 17:12
by zero-one
quicksilver wrote:IMHO, air shows are entertainment. They lend themselves to sales hype and other ‘commercial’ interests, but also serve to educate, inform and often, inspire. Beyond that, one shouldn’t read too much into any of them.



I agree with that. I'm not saying Europeans or Russians have better airshows or anything like that.
I'm simply implying that the Americans seem to have the most "tactically relevant" demo routine.

They fly their demos as if they're engaged in combat. Heck even the video camera is finding it hard to keep up sometimes.

you might say that Russian airshows are choreographed to impress the audience and airshow enthusiast. American airshows are choreographed to impress other pilots.

Square loop vs Pugachev's Cobra? One demonstrates Pitch and instantaneous turn rates in the vertical plane while the other is simply recovering from a stall and watching a slow airplane get even slower. But you ask your typical fan boy and they'll yawn on the square loop while claiming that the Cobra can be tactically relevant.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 18 Jul 2018, 20:27
by saberrider
Viper employed tactically should not be seen , because is a little jet and slim . Best corner speed @480 Knots down to 360 then extending thanks to GE powerful engine.How to enjoy at an airshow if come and go quickly.