Page 109 of 113

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 13:16
by quicksilver
marsavian wrote:
The C will have a smaller turn radius and better ITR. The A will have more available G and better STR


Isn't it the other way round ? A has the greater ITR (9g>7.5g) but C has the greater STR due to more wing lift. Remember those revised sustained G numbers in the past where only the C could do 5g at medium altitude.


x2, ref the sust G. What is usually left out of ITR discussion is where (at what airspeed) those G numbers occur. That will determine the resultant rate.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 15:15
by gta4
doge wrote:The F-35C flew at Blue Angels 2019 Homecoming Air Show. 8) (F-35C takeoff is from @15:00~.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e56A3E0fYEY

<<<<<<<<Attention!!>>>>>>>>
Please look at @18:10~ Absolutely !!!! :crazypilot: (Don't miss!!!! This is precious!!!!! Ultra Rare!!!!!)
F-35C is performing the Minimum Radius Turn!!!!! :shock: (Probably, the first time?)

To me, it looks exactly just 20 seconds or 19.XX seconds range until the 360 deg round turn is complete. :shock: wow!!! (Amazingly Amazing)
Even when compared to other fighters, its Min Radius Turn or Sustained Turn, to me looks very very Fast, Short Time, Quickly...!!!! :applause: (C is...The Heavy Miracle Monster!!)

On the other hand, the Minimum Radius Turn time of Demo Team Mr.DOJO F-35A that I often see is about 22~24 seconds. (maybe)
That is...C takes less time than A... !!?? :!: :?: (confusion) Oh my Goodness!!!! :doh: (What’s happening !?)
Why is C so fast!?!? :roll: Does it involve C's Long Wings!? I don't know... (excited)

I be surprised by C! :doh:

Well, the minimum radius turn performed by F-35A is also very fast, at Paris 2017
https://youtu.be/i0fw13Pc7G0

No matter it is 7 or 7.5 g limited, it is still far from its full capability.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 16:02
by steve2267
gta4 wrote:No matter it is 7 or 7.5 g limited, it is still far from its full capability.


Gums told me once, "You NEVER show your best stuff at a show..."

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 19:10
by wrightwing
marsavian wrote:
The C will have a smaller turn radius and better ITR. The A will have more available G and better STR


Isn't it the other way round ? A has the greater ITR (9g>7.5g) but C has the greater STR due to more wing lift. Remember those revised sustained G numbers in the past where only the C could do 5g at medium altitude.

G and ITR (or STR for that matter) are separate matters. The C has better ITR, the A has better STR.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 20:05
by quicksilver
No brah. Marsavian is correct re: str.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 20:07
by marsavian
The sustained g KPP for all F-35 variants is at the same speed and altitude otherwise it has no relevance. They originally thought the A would sustain 5.3g and the C 5.1g but testing proved otherwise with these figures downgraded to 4.6g and 5g respectively.
.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 21:08
by wrightwing
Max G (or sustained G for that matter) is not the same as max STR/ITR or minimum radius turn. The C wins in ITR and minimum radius, the A wins in STR and max G. All of these occur under different conditions.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 21:20
by quicksilver
So, are you saying (in comparison to the C) that the A sustains more G at the same flight conditions, or are you saying that although it sustains a lesser G number, it does so at a slower airspeed thereby producing a higher str?

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 21:27
by quicksilver
Remember this?

https://elementsofpower.blogspot.com/20 ... c.html?m=1

See the F-35A ‘Flight Sciences’ section on page 4, and the F-35C ‘Flight Sciences‘ section page 7 of the 2012 DOT&E Annual Report at this link —

https://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY ... f35jsf.pdf

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 21:51
by wrightwing
quicksilver wrote:So, are you saying (in comparison to the C) that the A sustains more G at the same flight conditions, or are you saying that although it sustains a lesser G number, it does so at a slower airspeed thereby producing a higher str?

You understand the term (And difference) sustained turn rate (i.e. the max number of degrees per second that can be sustained) vs. sustained G at X velocity/altitude, right? STR refers to degrees per second, not the Gs being sustained. ITR refers to the maximum instantaneous degrees per second (again, not Gs.) These numbers are generally referring to sea level performance, not M.8/15k feet at XYZ weight. To use some real world illustrations, the F-16 is an STR/rate fighter. The F-18 is an ITR/radius fighter much the same way the F-35A is to the F-35C.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 22:22
by geforcerfx


Better camera work on the C

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 22:29
by quicksilver
wrightwing wrote:
quicksilver wrote:So, are you saying (in comparison to the C) that the A sustains more G at the same flight conditions, or are you saying that although it sustains a lesser G number, it does so at a slower airspeed thereby producing a higher str?

You understand the term (And difference) sustained turn rate (i.e. the max number of degrees per second that can be sustained) vs. sustained G at X velocity/altitude, right? STR refers to degrees per second, not the Gs being sustained. ITR refers to the maximum instantaneous degrees per second (again, not Gs.) These numbers are generally referring to sea level performance, not M.8/15k feet at XYZ weight. To use some real world illustrations, the F-16 is an STR/rate fighter. The F-18 is an ITR/radius fighter much the same way the F-35A is to the F-35C.


STR is a consequence of G performance in a given configuration and weight at a given set of flight conditions. The program chose to use a certain set of flight conditions to make a comparative assessment; apples to apples if you will. In that official comparison, the C was/is the better performer in STR. We don’t know how that comparative performance might change if we alter the flight conditions. However, what we do know from pilot comments Is that the F-35A is a radius fighter as it generally suffers in comparison to other fighters in sustained performance (reference John Venable’s Heritage report from a few years back). Anecdotally, (from public reports) it accelerates like a Viper and points like a Hornet. It’s not a rate fighter.

Here’s the link to JV’s report — https://www.heritage.org/defense/report ... concurrent

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 22:41
by disconnectedradical
doge wrote:The F-35C flew at Blue Angels 2019 Homecoming Air Show. 8) (F-35C takeoff is from @15:00~.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e56A3E0fYEY

<<<<<<<<Attention!!>>>>>>>>
Please look at @18:10~ Absolutely !!!! :crazypilot: (Don't miss!!!! This is precious!!!!! Ultra Rare!!!!!)
F-35C is performing the Minimum Radius Turn!!!!! :shock: (Probably, the first time?)

To me, it looks exactly just 20 seconds or 19.XX seconds range until the 360 deg round turn is complete. :shock: wow!!! (Amazingly Amazing)
Even when compared to other fighters, its Min Radius Turn or Sustained Turn, to me looks very very Fast, Short Time, Quickly...!!!! :applause: (C is...The Heavy Miracle Monster!!)

On the other hand, the Minimum Radius Turn time of Demo Team Mr.DOJO F-35A that I often see is about 22~24 seconds. (maybe)
That is...C takes less time than A... !!?? :!: :?: (confusion) Oh my Goodness!!!! :doh: (What’s happening !?)
Why is C so fast!?!? :roll: Does it involve C's Long Wings!? I don't know... (excited)

I be surprised by C! :doh:


I don't know why people are getting so excited about 20 seconds minimum radius turn, we see that all the time with F-22, F/A-18, Rafale, etc.

F-35 airshows are decent, and the yaw and high alpha is really great especially for aircraft with no TVC but I never thought it was that special. Besides it's never supposed to be the best airshow aircraft. It's respectable but nothing extraordinary. It's the stealth and avionics that make it so good, not kinematics.

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 22:45
by quicksilver
“F-35 airshows are decent, and the yaw and high alpha is really great especially for aircraft with no TVC but I never thought it was that special. Besides it's never supposed to be the best airshow aircraft. It's respectable but nothing extraordinary. It's the stealth and avionics that make it so good, not kinematics.“

x2

Re: F-35 and Airshows

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 22:57
by ricnunes
disconnectedradical wrote:I don't know why people are getting so excited about 20 seconds minimum radius turn, we see that all the time with F-22, F/A-18, Rafale, etc.

F-35 airshows are decent, and the yaw and high alpha is really great especially for aircraft with no TVC but I never thought it was that special.


I disagree with most of what you said. The only thing that I can agree is that the F-22 shows a somehow more impressive performance than the F-35 but IMO none of the other aircraft (again except the F-22) exhibits such a good and impressive performance. Using your two (2) other examples:
- The F-35 shows a much more impressive acceleration and energy recovery compared to the F/A-18.
- And the F-35 shows a much more impressive yaw and high alpha performance compared to the Rafale.


disconnectedradical wrote:Besides it's never supposed to be the best airshow aircraft. It's respectable but nothing extraordinary. It's the stealth and avionics that make it so good, not kinematics.


I don't know what you mean with being the "best airshow aircraft" when it comes to fighter aircraft but what makes the F-35 "so good" is the combination of stealth, sensors and YES, kinematics! An aircraft (F-35) which was designed to be in terms of kinematics a combination between the F-16 "energy agility" with the F/A-18 "high alpha performance" can only be one of the best performing fighters in the world when it comes to kinematics alone.


But this being said, I've seen much more impressive maneuvers (on other airshows) regarding the F-35 compared to the video above.