F-35 and Airshows

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post26 Sep 2013, 14:14

huggy wrote:Eglin is not having a show in 2013. No show is currently planned for 2014.
Tyndall cancelled their 2013 show. No show is currently planned for 2014.
Pensacola's show is on hold, and unlikely to take place, seeing as we are 6 weeks out, and no contracts are signed. http://www.naspairshow.com/

Do some of you not understand that the Dept of the Navy and the Dept of the Air Force have pretty much put a moratorium on hosting airshows, having military airplanes at airshows, and doing flyovers for airshows? If you don't like this, then why haven't you written you Congressman and Senator?

MCAS Miramar is about the only exception... but don't expect to see any military aviation hardware there. However, the Patriots Jet Team WILL be there, and they are OUTSTANDING. If you were at Reno, you can validate this.


I saw the Patriots at JBLM in 2010, there were fantastic!
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energo

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Unread post26 Sep 2013, 21:19

huggy wrote:The Yuma Airshow this past March had the F-35 on static display.
As for which shows,... remember that Sequestration has put a hold on almost all military airshows until further notice.

That said, Andrews AFB, due to the nature of the show, is always looked at, since it is a chance for Industry to show their wares to Congressional staffers.
Can't argue with Edwards either.

At this point, it is total speculation.
But remember: they are not going to display the F-35 to show it off to the public. If it is at a show, it is there to make a sales pitch.


Indeed, a good chance it will be at RIAT and Farnborough next year.

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hornetfinn

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Unread post27 Sep 2013, 09:38

Since airshows are mostly about showing power and maneuverability at low level, I wonder what kind of routine we can expect from the F-35 airshows? I could see using F-35B for rather cool STOVL show, like Harriers have done, but with way more power. Maybe show off high-alpha capability like F/A-18s do?
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zero-one

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Unread post27 Sep 2013, 10:00

You beat me to it Hornetfinn, I was about to ask the exact same thing,

but I'm a bit confused,

I thought the F-35 would have its maneuverability once its Block 3F software was installed, when is it scheduled for roll out by the way?

Wild guess here, but since the F-35 is mostly compared to have the maneuverability of the F/A-18, then I guess thats what we would see
however during the high AOA departure test, I did see the F-35 perform a tail slide so we may see that maneuver as well,

I'm not sure if the US will finally incorporate Russian maneuvers like the Cobra into their routines, although the F-22 is well capable of this and even Russian sources claim that the F/A-18 can do this as well (albeit at high altitudes, for safety according to them) its curious that they would not want to include this on their routines.


Sad cause I often get into heated arguments with Russian fanboys saying that no NATO plane can perform a proper Cobra
:D
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sferrin

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Unread post27 Sep 2013, 12:45

zero-one wrote:I'm not sure if the US will finally incorporate Russian maneuvers like the Cobra into their routines, although the F-22 is well capable of this and even Russian sources claim that the F/A-18 can do this as well (albeit at high altitudes, for safety according to them) its curious that they would not want to include this on their routines.


Sad cause I often get into heated arguments with Russian fanboys saying that no NATO plane can perform a proper Cobra
:D


They must not have seen any of the F-22's early routines. They did stuff like that and more. Easily. For some reason they've cut back on that the last years. I guess they figured "we've shown we can do it, now we're going to do the routine we want to do".
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munny

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Unread post27 Sep 2013, 15:05

Unless its ready to do something between

this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezMH3CN_zGk

and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgaOrCYb7b0

I say keep it in the bag a little longer.

I'm gonna put my money on the table and say it'll be closer to the second clip, just something about that wide concave front and deep tapered back-end on the bottom of the fuselage, I reckon it'll post stall turn beautifully.
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zero-one

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Unread post27 Sep 2013, 15:47

sferrin wrote:They must not have seen any of the F-22's early routines. They did stuff like that and more. Easily. For some reason they've cut back on that the last years. I guess they figured "we've shown we can do it, now we're going to do the routine we want to do".


Can you post a link of those early routines, so far the only Cobra I've seen from a Raptor is a pixelated grainy noisy video lasting around 28 seconds of a far away F-22 doing a Cobra


I'd like to see it in better quality

I usually counter the Raptor haters by asking if they've seen a Flanker or a PAK-FA doing a snap take off, so far I've never seen one, I think I saw a Flanker include a power loop, can't quite remember

and ofcourse the maneuver that no flanker can dream of a weapons bay door pass hehehe
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sferrin

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Unread post27 Sep 2013, 17:28

munny wrote:Unless its ready to do something between

this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezMH3CN_zGk

and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgaOrCYb7b0

.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYtpczzMTws

In that one the F-22 does the turn, and pulls into a climb. :shock:

(2:40)
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sferrin

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Unread post28 Sep 2013, 04:04

zero-one wrote:
sferrin wrote:They must not have seen any of the F-22's early routines. They did stuff like that and more. Easily. For some reason they've cut back on that the last years. I guess they figured "we've shown we can do it, now we're going to do the routine we want to do".


Can you post a link of those early routines, so far the only Cobra I've seen from a Raptor is a pixelated grainy noisy video lasting around 28 seconds of a far away F-22 doing a Cobra


I'd like to see it in better quality

I usually counter the Raptor haters by asking if they've seen a Flanker or a PAK-FA doing a snap take off, so far I've never seen one, I think I saw a Flanker include a power loop, can't quite remember

and ofcourse the maneuver that no flanker can dream of a weapons bay door pass hehehe


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrBx6G2O6A4
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sketch22

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Unread post28 Sep 2013, 04:29

zero-one wrote:
sferrin wrote:They must not have seen any of the F-22's early routines. They did stuff like that and more. Easily. For some reason they've cut back on that the last years. I guess they figured "we've shown we can do it, now we're going to do the routine we want to do".


Can you post a link of those early routines, so far the only Cobra I've seen from a Raptor is a pixelated grainy noisy video lasting around 28 seconds of a far away F-22 doing a Cobra


I'd like to see it in better quality

I usually counter the Raptor haters by asking if they've seen a Flanker or a PAK-FA doing a snap take off, so far I've never seen one, I think I saw a Flanker include a power loop, can't quite remember

and ofcourse the maneuver that no flanker can dream of a weapons bay door pass hehehe

Early airshow demos (pre 2007) were mostly glorified "flybys" performed by a temporary pilot who just happened to be in the right place at the right time. The crazy maneuvers he used to do behind the crowdline were for the purpose of testing them at low altitude and burning gas.

Raptors do cobras all the time, its part of the B-Course syllabus.

As for the F-22 against XYZ there are many aircraft that can perform almost the same moves as it can at airshow altitudes, but when you start getting above 30-40k AGL it quickly becomes apparent just how good those F119 motors are. I can say with confidence that the entire SU-27 family and probably the T-50 would be struggling to do those moves where the Raptor has no problem.

So, in summary, airshow demos are cool (and in the CONUS are missed greatly..) but in the operational world there is a lot more to the performance of an aircraft than whether it can do a power loop or a tailslide.

On topic, I'm assuming at some point ACC will stand up an F-35A West and East demo team for airshows, along with one team from the Marines and the Navy as well. I believe its more important than ever to show this aircraft off to the public, since it has more negative buzz around it than perhaps any other plane in history. Joe public needs to see their tax dollars at work and the best way to do it is a straight up, no kidding, full on burner fest by the Lightning.
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Unread post28 Sep 2013, 07:53

I'd reckon a T-50 with its definitive Izdeliye 30 engines from 2020 on can aerodynamically match or exceed the F-22 even at higher altitudes. I appreciate the T-50 from aerodynamic perspective. Whether that's worth the rather massive compromises in VLO is a whole other can of worms.
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Unread post28 Sep 2013, 16:21

zero-one wrote:
sferrin wrote:They must not have seen any of the F-22's early routines. They did stuff like that and more. Easily. For some reason they've cut back on that the last years. I guess they figured "we've shown we can do it, now we're going to do the routine we want to do".


Can you post a link of those early routines, so far the only Cobra I've seen from a Raptor is a pixelated grainy noisy video lasting around 28 seconds of a far away F-22 doing a Cobra


I'd like to see it in better quality

I usually counter the Raptor haters by asking if they've seen a Flanker or a PAK-FA doing a snap take off, so far I've never seen one, I think I saw a Flanker include a power loop, can't quite remember

and ofcourse the maneuver that no flanker can dream of a weapons bay door pass hehehe


What is a snap take-off?

Does it include the following:
Minimum take-off lenght?
Maximum Climb rate after Rotation?
High speed/low flying before Climbing?

And what is a Power loop??

I've seen hundreds of Vids and i've been to several Airshows.
But i have never heard about a "Power loop" and "snap take-off"..
Is this some newly invented LM trade or..?
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haavarla

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Unread post28 Sep 2013, 16:30

sketch22 wrote:
zero-one wrote:
sferrin wrote:They must not have seen any of the F-22's early routines. They did stuff like that and more. Easily. For some reason they've cut back on that the last years. I guess they figured "we've shown we can do it, now we're going to do the routine we want to do".


Can you post a link of those early routines, so far the only Cobra I've seen from a Raptor is a pixelated grainy noisy video lasting around 28 seconds of a far away F-22 doing a Cobra


I'd like to see it in better quality

I usually counter the Raptor haters by asking if they've seen a Flanker or a PAK-FA doing a snap take off, so far I've never seen one, I think I saw a Flanker include a power loop, can't quite remember

and ofcourse the maneuver that no flanker can dream of a weapons bay door pass hehehe

Early airshow demos (pre 2007) were mostly glorified "flybys" performed by a temporary pilot who just happened to be in the right place at the right time. The crazy maneuvers he used to do behind the crowdline were for the purpose of testing them at low altitude and burning gas.

Raptors do cobras all the time, its part of the B-Course syllabus.

As for the F-22 against XYZ there are many aircraft that can perform almost the same moves as it can at airshow altitudes, but when you start getting above 30-40k AGL it quickly becomes apparent just how good those F119 motors are. I can say with confidence that the entire SU-27 family and probably the T-50 would be struggling to do those moves where the Raptor has no problem.

So, in summary, airshow demos are cool (and in the CONUS are missed greatly..) but in the operational world there is a lot more to the performance of an aircraft than whether it can do a power loop or a tailslide.

On topic, I'm assuming at some point ACC will stand up an F-35A West and East demo team for airshows, along with one team from the Marines and the Navy as well. I believe its more important than ever to show this aircraft off to the public, since it has more negative buzz around it than perhaps any other plane in history. Joe public needs to see their tax dollars at work and the best way to do it is a straight up, no kidding, full on burner fest by the Lightning.


1st: Pls post a Source or even better, a vid of the F-22 doing Cobras in 30-40K altidude.
2nd: Pls post a Source where such manuveres are a smart thing to do in such altitude in the first place?
3rd: Pls post a Source the Su-35S or Pak-Fa can't do it?

It seems a bit lost to some People here..
But the real deal about Cobras at deck altitude above 80.000 People is this:

To show the jet relaxed stability, the overall stability and short time ability to regain flight after departured flight.
In essents to show how reliable the Jet is over a wide range of flight regimes.

For those who do not get it. If the pilot and the jet risk doing it in such risky enviroment time and time againk, there is ofcourse no question if it can do it at safer Altitude.

A.f.a.i.k there is not other jet that can do such manuvere as Flanker design in such low altidude.
The F-22 can do them, but they allways do it at higher altitude, for safty margin..

My best Guess is that the F-35A and C will have to settle for the same display as the Rafale and EF.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post28 Sep 2013, 17:52

What is a snap take-off?


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=f-22+snap+takeoff


And what is a Power loop??


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=F-22+power+loop

Is this some newly invented LM trade or..?


yes Mr. Larsen, if you haven't heard of something it was invented by LM. LM has invented a lot of things apparently...
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sferrin

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Unread post28 Sep 2013, 18:25

"haavarla" sounds upset. :lol:
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