F-35 and Airshows

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2149
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post26 Jun 2019, 16:19

quicksilver wrote:The biggest challenge with the gun is getting close enough to employ it, and in the process one may expose one’s self and one’s ride and one’s wingman to unnecessary risk. Sometimes the best option is to leave and live to fight another day (or at least until one’s next frag on the ATO).

Certain kinds of training often (necessarily) removes some of the ‘getting close’ part, but end game for gun employment remains very difficult, which is why the guns kill in training remains so satisfying.


You're absolutely correct quicksilver.

If a pilot finds himself armed with only the gun during a real aerial combat he will flee the combat and definitely not press on the attack.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2177
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post26 Jun 2019, 16:24

I agree with all the points above gents.
What I'm generally against are the sweeping statements that are the result of simulations and test.

i.e.
we don't need X because Y exercise proved that Z will render it useless.
I'm not saying exercises and evaluations are erroneous, but they need to be taken with the right amount of salt.
Offline

wrightwing

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3264
  • Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 15:22

Unread post27 Jun 2019, 02:17

ricnunes wrote:
optimist wrote:Bullets aren't 1:1 either.


That's exactly the point which is often missed in all these "missiles can miss" discussions!

What's the pk for an X numbers bullets of a Y gun?
While this may vary a lot (pilot skill being one of the factors) and while bullets cannot be jammed/spoofed/decoyed, I'm pretty sure that modern air-to-air missiles still have a far, far better pk than any modern gun.
For example and this being a discussion on the F-35 room in this forum:
1- How many planes can you can shot down with 4 AMRAAMs while flying a F-35A?
2- And how many of the same planes above can you shot down with 180 rounds, also flying the F-35A?

And above all, with 1- you can shot down without even been seen/detected and/or shot back at (while flying the F-35)?
Can you say the same with 2-? I doubt it!

Versus a 4th generation aircraft, number 2 isn't unimaginable either. F-35s gun F-16s, etc... without being detected, in exercises.
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2149
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post27 Jun 2019, 12:03

wrightwing wrote:Versus a 4th generation aircraft, number 2 isn't unimaginable either. F-35s gun F-16s, etc... without being detected, in exercises.


Yes, I believe that it's possible for a F-35 (due to its stealth and advanced sensors and fusion) to gun down a 4th gen fighter aircraft without the later ever realizing which is a situation which like you said, already happened during exercises.

However I would say that even with all the advantages of the F-35, the above (F-35 gunning a 4th gen fighter aircraft) is still a very risky maneuver/tactic and as such I'm pretty sure no pilot would ever try to replicate that in a real combat (unless in some extremely rare occasion/situation).
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 869
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post27 Jun 2019, 17:55

In the era of LOAL dogfight, missile performance is important. One equally important factor is "target designation algorithm".

In a many vs many environment, every one has only 2 IR missiles. If friendly fighters waste too many missiles on one target, that means some targets are missed and are very dangerous to your unarmed, ammo-depleted friendlies.

A good algorithm should designate a target to a friendly fighter that could maximize your friendlies' overall PK rate. Given the lack of ranging capability of IR sensors and the possibility of mistook overlapping enemies as one enemy, this algorithm is hard to design. That is what I call the "smartness" of a fighter jet.

Multi sensor fusion gives sufficient data input for F-35 to do the most complex algorithms.
Offline
User avatar

doge

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 293
  • Joined: 13 Jul 2015, 16:07

Unread post28 Jun 2019, 11:35

The Netherlands seems to loading AIM-120 at the Air Show. 8)
48138135272_28853cbb4f_k.jpg

48090968933_3cdc551b42_o.jpg

65160227_178561603147664_1233778254405165000_n.jpg


F-35 flew at the Canada[!] Bagotville Air Show. 8) (The pilot is Mr. Dojo.)



F-35 is flying @ Israel Air Force Flight Academy course #178 graduation 2019. 8)
[Short ver] @14:15~ Appeared F-35.

[Long ver.] @1h:32m:00s~ Appeared F-35.
Offline
User avatar

steve2267

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2168
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2016, 17:36

Unread post30 Jun 2019, 14:55

I missed the earlier discussion about gun employment.

Regarding it, I recall some wink-wink-nod-nod comments made by a (younger?) USAF F-35 driver, and commented on this site, about developing tactics and techniques to employ the gun. I do not recall the thread. The gist was that if one could sneak up on one's adversary, you could gun them before they knew what hit them. A stealth variation on the old attacking out of the sun tactic, it would seem. But those in the know certainly do not appear to be publicly talking about it.

If an F-22 can suddenly materialize above or below an Iranian F-4 or F-14 and tell it to go home... then this would seem to be a valid tactic.

But getting a gun kill in a 1v1, 2v1, or swirling maelstrom when the target is alerted, defensive, and has some E is no easy task.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 23271
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post30 Jun 2019, 15:27

I have no idea about post but went looking: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=27497&p=294354&hilit=Gun%2A+sneak#p294354
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3437
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post02 Jul 2019, 19:22

Accounts of the F-22 sneaking up and delivering a gun kill are numerous. The F-35 might be able to do it even better, although exiting the fight and selectively dis-engaging will be more difficult. As such, I'd imagine this would be a last resort, the way any WVR "dogfight" action may be considered..
Offline
User avatar

zerion

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 646
  • Joined: 25 Jan 2014, 01:47
  • Location: Everywhere like such as...

Unread post02 Jul 2019, 20:49

mixelflick wrote:Accounts of the F-22 sneaking up and delivering a gun kill are numerous. The F-35 might be able to do it even better, although exiting the fight and selectively dis-engaging will be more difficult. As such, I'd imagine this would be a last resort, the way any WVR "dogfight" action may be considered..

Wasn’t there an AF officer who said that the 5th gen pilots could get kills with their side arms if they could open the cockpit? I couldn’t find the quote but I think he was talking about expanding the magazine depth of the 5 gens.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 23271
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post02 Jul 2019, 21:13

zerion wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Accounts of the F-22 sneaking up and delivering a gun kill are numerous. The F-35 might be able to do it even better, although exiting the fight and selectively dis-engaging will be more difficult. As such, I'd imagine this would be a last resort, the way any WVR "dogfight" action may be considered..

Wasn’t there an AF officer who said that the 5th gen pilots could get kills with their side arms if they could open the cockpit? I couldn’t find the quote but I think he was talking about expanding the magazine depth of the 5 gens.

That would be a great AIRSHOW 'kills with side arms' sequence.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline

outlaw162

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1308
  • Joined: 28 Feb 2008, 02:33

Unread post02 Jul 2019, 22:57

The Navy pioneered that technique to counter more agile USAF jets. "I know he's around here somewhere. Draw you varmint."
Attachments
F-14D glock 9mm attack.jpg
Last edited by outlaw162 on 02 Jul 2019, 23:03, edited 1 time in total.
Online

quicksilver

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2649
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 01:30

Unread post02 Jul 2019, 23:02

:lmao:
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 23271
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post02 Jul 2019, 23:49

Attachments
F-14inadvertantRIOejectionLostCanopy PRN pp3.pdf
(143.73 KiB) Downloaded 163 times
YosemiteSAMvarmintPOST.jpg
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline
User avatar

sferrin

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5399
  • Joined: 22 Jul 2005, 03:23

Unread post03 Jul 2019, 12:09

outlaw162 wrote:The Navy pioneered that technique to counter more agile USAF jets. "I know he's around here somewhere. Draw you varmint."


What is it with the Navy and convertibles?

Hornet1.png


"YEEEEEEHAAAAAAWWWWWWWW!!!!"

a6_landing_lt_gallagher_3-640x481.jpg


Apparently that guy was lucky his chute was tangled on the tail. It kept him from slamming into the jagged remains of his canopy.

a6_landing_lt_gallagher_2-640x439.jpg
"There I was. . ."
PreviousNext

Return to General F-35 Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: playloud and 14 guests