F-35 and Airshows

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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mixelflick

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Unread post18 Jun 2019, 14:12

quicksilver wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Interesting video.

Seems the F-35 is indeed very close to a "clean" F-16. I doubt we've seen everything the F-35 can do however. The new(er) flight control software alone could make a big difference..


You’ve seen everything it can do in close proximity to the ground and people.

What else might you expect it do? Dramatic but tactically meaningless post-stall flips? What would that prove?


It needs to "prove" itself in the mind of the people that buy it - US taxpayers

You as an upper crust F-16 member are of the opinion such dramatic post stall flips are meaningless. But Joe Q. Public isn't as savvy and knowledgeable as you. He just sees something no other jet in the US inventory can do (save the F-22). And the F-22's reputation is so fearsome, the F-35 gets the rub.

And let's be honest: The F-35 still has a PR problem.Things like this demo will do more to reverse that than any amount of SA, stealth or whatever other capabilities you can cite. If the general public can't see them, you can explain them until you're blue in the face. The general public can't grasp it. They just know it can do things no F-15, 16 or 18 they've seen flying for the last 3 decades can.

To them, post stall flips are quite meaningful...
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quicksilver

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Unread post18 Jun 2019, 15:18

I didn’t argue against air shows; I said it has done everything it’s going to do in proximity to the ground and people. You can translate that as, ‘there is nothing more you’re gonna see within the realm of reasonable or allowable risk to those whose person or things they value are in proximity to the danger inherent in the demo.’

For those who view its currently demonstrated public performance as unsatisfying, there is nothing else in its repertoire that will scratch that itch.
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Unread post18 Jun 2019, 15:28

charlielima223 wrote:I can't remember if I heard/read it somewhere here on the interwebs or at an airshow. Something along the lines of, what people see at airshows is simply a byproduct of the the aircraft's maneuvering capabilities.


What people see at airshows IS the maneuvering capability of the aircraft. What you don’t see is that capability used against an adversary in real time.
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Unread post18 Jun 2019, 15:53

“To them, post stall flips are quite meaningful...”

Let’s be honest, post stall flips are meaningful to you, and others who have this specific interest. And once that interest was fulfilled, the goal posts would be moved or the chinning bar raised...

Why? Because it’s human nature. It’s about that unique excitement of seeing something for the first few times. Eventually the buzz wears off. Absent the constraints of society, the demand would eventually be for real aerial combat with live weapons; a modern day Colosseum because there’s always ‘give us more...’.

The thing that always inspired me about US airshows — whether I was participating or spectating — was not ‘a maneuver’; it was the power of its freedom; its industrial genius, its economic vitality, and the spirit of its free people to create and contribute, and enjoy the fruits of those endeavors.

So, IMNSHO, if the airshow is only about some ‘maneuvers’... Then, someone is missing the point.
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Unread post19 Jun 2019, 16:53

What is meaningful? What are the demos that need to be done to shut them up?

1. Use DAS + aim-9x to do a 180 deg LOAL shot. That will make 80% of the critics silent.
2. Take aim-9x or asraams internally. That will shut up 85% of the critics.
3. Demonstrate that ESM + DAS could do 360 deg scanning, ranging and targeting. That will shut up 95% of the critics.
4. Defeat Russian fighters (flanker of fulcrum) in an exercise. Release HUD footage. That will shut up all Pierre Spreys.
...
If F-35 could prove that DAS+ESM could guide AMRAAMs to any direction, that will make any potential enemy's pants wet. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post19 Jun 2019, 18:08

The F-35 can do that now with an AMRAAM, no need of a 9x or ASRAAM.
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sferrin

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Unread post19 Jun 2019, 20:30

SpudmanWP wrote:The F-35 can do that now with an AMRAAM, no need of a 9x or ASRAAM.


AIM-120 can hit targets behind the aircraft? Didn't think it had that kind of maneuverability.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post19 Jun 2019, 20:35

Why not, ASRAAM has smaller fins w/o TVC and it can. Besides, the AMRAAM has had several upgrades in the C5/7/D sequence to specifically address HOBS functionality. There has also been marketing vids from Northrop showing this capability (animated) as a way to demonstrate the capabilities of EODAS.
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charlielima223

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Unread post20 Jun 2019, 01:50

SpudmanWP wrote:Why not, ASRAAM has smaller fins w/o TVC and it can. Besides, the AMRAAM has had several upgrades in the C5/7/D sequence to specifically address HOBS functionality. There has also been marketing vids from Northrop showing this capability (animated) as a way to demonstrate the capabilities of EODAS.


that must be a very small and limited engagement envelope if the AIM-9X and AMRAAM-D can engage threats directly to the 6 o'clock of the aircraft. I am always skeptical of the claim that new missiles can engage threats behind the aircraft. I am sure the over the shoulder capabilities and HOBS are exceedingly impressive as demonstrated in publicly available test footage. However I have a problem visualizing a missile coming off the rails and performing a tight 180 turn.
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sferrin

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Unread post20 Jun 2019, 12:06

charlielima223 wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Why not, ASRAAM has smaller fins w/o TVC and it can. Besides, the AMRAAM has had several upgrades in the C5/7/D sequence to specifically address HOBS functionality. There has also been marketing vids from Northrop showing this capability (animated) as a way to demonstrate the capabilities of EODAS.


that must be a very small and limited engagement envelope if the AIM-9X and AMRAAM-D can engage threats directly to the 6 o'clock of the aircraft. I am always skeptical of the claim that new missiles can engage threats behind the aircraft. I am sure the over the shoulder capabilities and HOBS are exceedingly impressive as demonstrated in publicly available test footage. However I have a problem visualizing a missile coming off the rails and performing a tight 180 turn.






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Unread post20 Jun 2019, 15:35

MICA doing 180 0:11-0:14

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mixelflick

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Unread post20 Jun 2019, 17:33

Now THAT was impressive!

Had only seen "over the shoulder" AMRAAM shots in simulations. To see a live AAM perform such a maneuver... wow. Wouldn't want to be pursuing that jet..
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Unread post21 Jun 2019, 04:07

mixelflick wrote:Now THAT was impressive!

Had only seen "over the shoulder" AMRAAM shots in simulations. To see a live AAM perform such a maneuver... wow. Wouldn't want to be pursuing that jet..


Surprised youve never seen those vids before. Been youtube for years. I was flabbergasted when i saw them the first time too. I was like...whoa...magic missiles!! lol.
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Unread post21 Jun 2019, 04:22

The over the shoulder missile capability of the F-35 has been remarked upon for a long time here and on the tinternet.

One can search this F-35 forum overall for YouTube string 6YMSfg26YSQ the eight hits go back to 'Conan' 07 Jul 2013: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=22088&p=255165&hilit=6YMSfg26YSQ#p255165 AIM-9X testing and capabilities Jun 2013
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post21 Jun 2019, 06:45

Another 180-turn-capable missile:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr4f-tNKaOs
check 2:40 for live footage
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