F-35 and Airshows

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post06 Jun 2019, 20:05

ricnunes wrote:Well, in the end isn't Chengdu and Shenyang basically the same thing: "Companies" that belong to the same owner - The Chinese government? :wink:

Anyway, I can see potential for this FC-31:
- A very big threat to any 4th and 4.5th gen fighter aircraft.
- A cheaper aircraft than the J-20 and Su-57 which would give it a much bigger export potential and the potential of being manufactured in bigger numbers which thus would make it an even bigger threat.


Not really, Chengdu and Shenyang competed for J-XX, and Chengdu won with J-20.
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ricnunes

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Unread post06 Jun 2019, 20:09

disconnectedradical wrote:Not really, Chengdu and Shenyang competed for J-XX, and Chengdu won with J-20.


Not disputing the above (the competition) but both Chengdu and Shenyang belong to the same (owner), don't they?
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post06 Jun 2019, 20:17

ricnunes wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:Not really, Chengdu and Shenyang competed for J-XX, and Chengdu won with J-20.


Not disputing the above (the competition) but both Chengdu and Shenyang belong to the same (owner), don't they?


Yes and apparently, because of politics, after losing J-XX, Shenyang still managed to be subcontractor for J-20, and Chengdu allegedly wasn't very happy about that.
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sferrin

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Unread post06 Jun 2019, 20:21

disconnectedradical wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:Not really, Chengdu and Shenyang competed for J-XX, and Chengdu won with J-20.


Not disputing the above (the competition) but both Chengdu and Shenyang belong to the same (owner), don't they?


Yes and apparently, because of politics, after losing J-XX, Shenyang still managed to be subcontractor for J-20, and Chengdu allegedly wasn't very happy about that.


Same thing happens in the West.
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vilters

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Unread post06 Jun 2019, 21:40

I see no lift vortex generators on the air intakes and the hor. tails are too small.
Oh and what about stealth on those engines? Is that an "option".

Ahaa, LOL, they ran out of paint. Yep, that must be it. LOL.

Or their radar broke down and needed the metallic reflection to track the thing. :devil:
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sferrin

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Unread post06 Jun 2019, 22:54

vilters wrote:I see no lift vortex generators on the air intakes and the hor. tails are too small.
Oh and what about stealth on those engines? Is that an "option".

Ahaa, LOL, they ran out of paint. Yep, that must be it. LOL.

Or their radar broke down and needed the metallic reflection to track the thing. :devil:


Jesus. Just how much turpentine did you drink this morning?
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southernphantom

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Unread post07 Jun 2019, 02:48

sferrin wrote:
vilters wrote:I see no lift vortex generators on the air intakes and the hor. tails are too small.
Oh and what about stealth on those engines? Is that an "option".

Ahaa, LOL, they ran out of paint. Yep, that must be it. LOL.

Or their radar broke down and needed the metallic reflection to track the thing. :devil:


Jesus. Just how much turpentine did you drink this morning?


Good question!
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post07 Jun 2019, 04:03

Lay off the personal attacks. That is not F-16.net etiquette! You don't like someones post? Ignore it. You consistently don't like to see someones posts? tag them personally as a "foe" so you don't have to see them.
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gta4

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Unread post07 Jun 2019, 07:24

Well my thought on FC-31 is that it still uses high wing sweep (close to 50 deg). Considering its poor engines it may want more subsonic L/D instead of supersonic L/D however it is the American that uses lower wing sweep on their 5th gen. to maximize subsonic L/D. F-22 uses 42 deg, same as Mig-29/Su-27/35. F-35 is even below 35 deg. Lower lift curve slope and smaller H-stab may negate FC-31's chance to mimic F-35's Dojo drift/lightning loop, but probably gives it higher speed.

Interesting fact: I believe the best strategy for underpowered fighter jets is to sacrifice supersonic L/D for subsonic L/D. One extreme example is A-10 which can turn surprisingly well with very low T/W ratio. However those 5th Gen. with good engines (F-22/35) are using the lowest wing sweep. Those with bad engines (Su-57/J-20/FC-31) are using high wing sweep.
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post07 Jun 2019, 08:23

gta4 wrote:Well my thought on FC-31 is that it still uses high wing sweep (close to 50 deg). Considering its poor engines it may want more subsonic L/D instead of supersonic L/D however it is the American that uses lower wing sweep on their 5th gen. to maximize subsonic L/D. F-22 uses 42 deg, same as Mig-29/Su-27/35. F-35 is even below 35 deg. Lower lift curve slope and smaller H-stab may negate FC-31's chance to mimic F-35's Dojo drift/lightning loop, but probably gives it higher speed.

Interesting fact: I believe the best strategy for underpowered fighter jets is to sacrifice supersonic L/D for subsonic L/D. One extreme example is A-10 which can turn surprisingly well with very low T/W ratio. However those 5th Gen. with good engines (F-22/35) are using the lowest wing sweep. Those with bad engines (Su-57/J-20/FC-31) are using high wing sweep.


What, FC-31 wing sweep is nowhere close to 50. Su-57 and J-20 sweep is higher because more focus on supercruise but even then not too different from F-22.
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Unread post07 Jun 2019, 10:52

disconnectedradical wrote:
gta4 wrote:Well my thought on FC-31 is that it still uses high wing sweep (close to 50 deg). Considering its poor engines it may want more subsonic L/D instead of supersonic L/D however it is the American that uses lower wing sweep on their 5th gen. to maximize subsonic L/D. F-22 uses 42 deg, same as Mig-29/Su-27/35. F-35 is even below 35 deg. Lower lift curve slope and smaller H-stab may negate FC-31's chance to mimic F-35's Dojo drift/lightning loop, but probably gives it higher speed.

Interesting fact: I believe the best strategy for underpowered fighter jets is to sacrifice supersonic L/D for subsonic L/D. One extreme example is A-10 which can turn surprisingly well with very low T/W ratio. However those 5th Gen. with good engines (F-22/35) are using the lowest wing sweep. Those with bad engines (Su-57/J-20/FC-31) are using high wing sweep.


What, FC-31 wing sweep is nowhere close to 50. Su-57 and J-20 sweep is higher because more focus on supercruise but even then not too different from F-22.


The wing sweep of FC-31 may be around 45 deg, and it is much higher than that of F-35
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sferrin

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Unread post07 Jun 2019, 11:52

gta4 wrote:Considering its poor engines.


It's not going to keep Fulcrum engines.
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Unread post07 Jun 2019, 11:57

sferrin wrote:
gta4 wrote:Considering its poor engines.


It's not going to keep Fulcrum engines.


Yes they are using upgraded version of Fulcrum engines. The most powerful variant of RD-33 is the one used on Mig-29K which provides 8800kg (about 19295 lbs) thrust on afterburner. With recent technology it is possible to boost it to 9000kg. That is not enough though.
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Unread post07 Jun 2019, 12:23

gta4 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
gta4 wrote:Considering its poor engines.


It's not going to keep Fulcrum engines.


Yes they are using upgraded version of Fulcrum engines. The most powerful variant of RD-33 is the one used on Mig-29K which provides 8800kg (about 19295 lbs) thrust on afterburner. With recent technology it is possible to boost it to 9000kg. That is not enough though.


Presumably the production powerplant would be the WS-13E (22,450lbs). That's more thrust and better aerodynamics than the F-35 (certainly a better fineness ratio).
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gta4

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Unread post07 Jun 2019, 12:51

sferrin wrote:Presumably the production powerplant would be the WS-13E (22,450lbs). That's more thrust and better aerodynamics than the F-35 (certainly a better fineness ratio).


1) Are you saying china is upgrading RD-33 to beat F414 (performance-wise)? Making that small engine as powerful as F100? If that is true, I could say China's engine technology is on par with, or probably has exceed US.

2) It's not an easy task to assume "A has better aerodynamics than B" without wind tunnel or CFD result.
Due to higher wing sweep, it is unlikely that FC-31 could become as efficient as F-35 at subsonic. Due to smaller H-stab, it may not have F-35 level pitch authority and unable to conduct drift turns/tight loops.

You can not judge a plane's "fineness" by its "thinness". There are lots of counter-examples. A seemingly "thin" or "slim" aircraft (such as all Gen.3 jets) may have very poor aerodynamic efficiency, while a seemingly stubby plane, such as propeller fighters from WW2 era, may have decent aerodynamic efficiency.
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