F-35 and Airshows

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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marsavian

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Unread post01 May 2019, 20:37

Also validates once again that airshow performance is a flavor of the performance potential and not necessarily the upper bound of it. I have long suspected that the minimum radius turn displayed by the Raptor generally is a comfortable within limits steady state affair at airshow speeds. A more representative Raptor high turn rate ending in minimum radius turn would start at high transonic Mach at 9g and end up with TVC finishing the turn well under 200 knots. Not really completely safe either for the pilot or audience to display such a violently fast bat turn so close to the ground and people but at high altitude when it goes stalking it's all there to use.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post02 May 2019, 04:22

Light on F-35B shows an ODD UNUSUAL LOOK? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5aW-wlWAAEZvwQ.jpg OTHERWISE....
"Lightning forecast! The F-35B Lightning will make its Royal Navy International Air Day debut on Saturday 13 July at RNAS Yeovilton. Making an airborne-only appearance, the stealth fighter will bring a glimpse of future UK airpower." + "A full-sized F-35B model with cockpit access will also be on static display."
https://twitter.com/RoyalNavy/status/11 ... 9757854720
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Unread post02 May 2019, 15:19

sferrin wrote:First 8 seconds. :shock:



Watched this 3 times, still can't get over the new demo. It's been hiding these moves for years, which makes me wonder how much more its capable of!

Crazy. Thanks again goes out to Gates for cutting production at 187. I'm sure the Chinese send him a thank you card every year. The Russians too..
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Unread post03 May 2019, 04:18

mixelflick wrote:
sferrin wrote:First 8 seconds. :shock:



Watched this 3 times, still can't get over the new demo. It's been hiding these moves for years, which makes me wonder how much more its capable of!

Crazy. Thanks again goes out to Gates for cutting production at 187. I'm sure the Chinese send him a thank you card every year. The Russians too..


Thats INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Unread post03 May 2019, 06:26

WHOOSH! F-22 Raptor Demo Team 2019 MCAS Beaufort: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxMn0L4UuHQ

A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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charlielima223

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Unread post03 May 2019, 22:26

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sferrin

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Unread post04 May 2019, 21:20

"There I was. . ."
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zerion

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Unread post04 May 2019, 23:10

the F35 “Can’t Turn, Can’t Climb, Can’t Run”.

this was the narrative for how long, and taken as gospel truth by how many?
:doh: :bang:
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geforcerfx

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Unread post05 May 2019, 06:27



Guess the lift fan is optional for STO
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marsavian

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Unread post05 May 2019, 12:00

zerion wrote:
the F35 “Can’t Turn, Can’t Climb, Can’t Run”.

this was the narrative for how long, and taken as gospel truth by how many?


Indeed, I took a wait and see and benefit of the doubt approach and LMT have more than made good on their claims. In fact I think its ability to cut square angles at any speed without hiccups and continue going in the new direction is actually quite an extra performance bonus to LMT's conservative claim of matching leading 4th gen maneuverability. This is F-22-esque but without needing the TVC nozzles, LMT deserve full credit for pulling this performance bonus off with a conventional airframe which will allow the F-35 to literally cut corners in chasing opponents down as Dolby so aptly described, now we can fully visualize in these aggressive demos what he was alluding to.
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steve2267

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Unread post05 May 2019, 14:59

marsavian wrote:
zerion wrote:
the F35 “Can’t Turn, Can’t Climb, Can’t Run”.

this was the narrative for how long, and taken as gospel truth by how many?


Indeed, I took a wait and see and benefit of the doubt approach and LMT have more than made good on their claims. In fact I think its ability to cut square angles at any speed without hiccups and continue going in the new direction is actually quite an extra performance bonus to LMT's conservative claim of matching leading 4th gen maneuverability. This is F-22-esque but without needing the TVC nozzles, LMT deserve full credit for pulling this performance bonus off with a conventional airframe which will allow the F-35 to literally cut corners in chasing opponents down as Dolby so aptly described, now we can fully visualize in these aggressive demos what he was alluding to.


Uhhh... aren't you going to lose a lot of speed if you cut a square corner?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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marsavian

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Unread post05 May 2019, 15:36

That might actually be the aim, to cut the angle and radius of your turn at the same time. It opens up more options in your maneuvering if you can do this without stalling or coming to a stop.
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Unread post05 May 2019, 17:02

Have to hand it to LM.

Had to be tough listening to the "cant turn, run, climb" narrative for years, knowing it was capable of this (and likely more) .
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Unread post05 May 2019, 17:14

steve2267 wrote:Uhhh... aren't you going to lose a lot of speed if you cut a square corner?

Not a problem when you have really good acceleration. And the sooner you get the turn over with, the sooner you start re-accelerating. Playing for angles is the right thing to do because that's what gets you where you want to be.

The uninitiated actually come with the right instinct when it comes to maneuvering combat, like the whole video game mentality of just hauling into the enemy. The limitations of technology is what prevents that direct path from being taken, so the whole discipline of BFM is needed to moderate the interaction between the instinctual ideal and physical reality. The direction we want to move in is towards obsoleting this "translating" layer. If you could have magical antigravity technology today, the entire BFM book would get immediately thrown into the dumpster.
An analogy already happening is with information representation in the F-35, all the techniques a 1965 Phantom RIO would have to know for interpreting the radar output goes out the window as the F-35 simply boxes where things are in space on the HMD.

Don't get hung up on technique, technique is not the goal. As options change, techniques will change.
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Unread post05 May 2019, 17:59

lbk000 wrote:Don't get hung up on technique, technique is not the goal. As options change, techniques will change.


Uhhh... technique as you call it, keeps one alive.

lbk000 wrote:Not a problem when you have really good acceleration. And the sooner you get the turn over with, the sooner you start re-accelerating. Playing for angles is the right thing to do because that's what gets you where you want to be.


Ummm... The F-22's that have been "killed" or "gunned" in DACT... it has been written by the more experienced pilots they died when the young hotshot studs became enamored with thrust vectoring, which implies low speed cornering.

lbk000 wrote:The uninitiated actually come with the right instinct when it comes to maneuvering combat, like the whole video game mentality of just hauling into the enemy. The limitations of technology is what prevents that direct path from being taken, so the whole discipline of BFM is needed to moderate the interaction between the instinctual ideal and physical reality. The direction we want to move in is towards obsoleting this "translating" layer. If you could have magical antigravity technology today, the entire BFM book would get immediately thrown into the dumpster.


So those young Raptor studs that died during DACT... they must have had just enough training to ruin their uninitiatedness.

We don't have anti-grav yet. Well... LM either hasn't figured it out yet from the stuff tucked away @ Area 51, or they are slow releasing it. Y'know... stelf first, then compakt fusion, then anti-grav...

The high alpha, square corner bat turns are a useful tool to have in one's toolbag, but they are not the be-all and end-all to ACM. From the posts by quicksilver, you have to know when to use them. Used correctly, they can be killer moves. Used incorrectly or at the wrong time, they turn you into a lowspeed grape, ripe for the picking.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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