F-35 and Airshows

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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gta4

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Unread post07 Apr 2019, 04:49

It is impossible for a tail-less carnard aircraft to maintain yaw/roll authority at high AOA/side slip state (J-turn, pedal turn...), without thrust vectoring.

Canard stalls very early, even before main wing stalls. H-stabs will remain aerodynamically effective in a wider range.
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Unread post08 Apr 2019, 10:52

kimjongnumbaun wrote:
lbk000 wrote:
jetblast16 wrote:

@ 2:34 and somewhat beyond. Holy smokes!

What an absurd low speed turn. Definitely one of the most unnatural looking turns I've ever seen.

I love it.


Congratulations SU-57, you made it to the merge. You die anyways. :D


LOL, and that is without the 9x!!!
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Gums

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Unread post08 Apr 2019, 15:09

Salute!

Thanks, gta4. Goor point.

If you can find an early F-16A demo, you will see the genesis of the "pedal turn', and it was done 100% by roll command, although i feel the aileron-rudder-interconnect cranked in a bit of rudder without us commandeing it.

The plane pretty much rolled about the cee gee. So at 25 deg AoA and 1 gee and maybe 150 knots you pointed st down using the HUD flight path marker, then used full roll command. From the outside, the thing looks like a spin at first.

Relax back pressure and accelerate out at your pleasure, or not. In the demo, you stayed slow, lowered the gear for a nice limiter pass, then burner climb.

In BFM, we did not intentionally use this much when getting up above the other guy. An unloaded roll while pointing out ahead of him was quicker.

Gums recalls....
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p38

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Unread post09 Apr 2019, 00:50

Super bummed

I missed the demo at the Waco show as they said it was rained out

Then apparently they did it after all.

I had a funeral

Ps long
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Was a tribute to the plane my grandfather flew in ww2
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gta4

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Unread post09 Apr 2019, 16:45

Gums wrote:Salute!

Thanks, gta4. Goor point.

If you can find an early F-16A demo, you will see the genesis of the "pedal turn', and it was done 100% by roll command, although i feel the aileron-rudder-interconnect cranked in a bit of rudder without us commandeing it.

The plane pretty much rolled about the cee gee. So at 25 deg AoA and 1 gee and maybe 150 knots you pointed st down using the HUD flight path marker, then used full roll command. From the outside, the thing looks like a spin at first.

Relax back pressure and accelerate out at your pleasure, or not. In the demo, you stayed slow, lowered the gear for a nice limiter pass, then burner climb.

In BFM, we did not intentionally use this much when getting up above the other guy. An unloaded roll while pointing out ahead of him was quicker.

Gums recalls....


Thanks for sharing your experience!
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gta4

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Unread post09 Apr 2019, 16:48

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sferrin

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Unread post09 Apr 2019, 16:56

I saw F-105s turning like that all the time when I was a kid growing up near Hill AFB back in the day. :wink:
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firebase99

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Unread post10 Apr 2019, 04:43

Gums wrote:Salute!

Thanks, gta4. Goor point.

If you can find an early F-16A demo, you will see the genesis of the "pedal turn', and it was done 100% by roll command, although i feel the aileron-rudder-interconnect cranked in a bit of rudder without us commandeing it.

The plane pretty much rolled about the cee gee. So at 25 deg AoA and 1 gee and maybe 150 knots you pointed st down using the HUD flight path marker, then used full roll command. From the outside, the thing looks like a spin at first.

Relax back pressure and accelerate out at your pleasure, or not. In the demo, you stayed slow, lowered the gear for a nice limiter pass, then burner climb.

In BFM, we did not intentionally use this much when getting up above the other guy. An unloaded roll while pointing out ahead of him was quicker.

Gums recalls....


Sounds a bit like a high speed Yo-Yo?
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Gums

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Unread post10 Apr 2019, 05:00

Salute!

Not a yo yo.

A piroette (SP?), and usually you could only do this if you pulled up at the merge and the bandit lost sight briefly or didn't/couldn't go up with you. 'course, only the Eagles could do that until the Hornet came along.

Gums sends...
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quicksilver

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Unread post10 Apr 2019, 05:36

“The plane pretty much rolled about the cee gee. So at 25 deg AoA and 1 gee and maybe 150 knots you pointed st down using the HUD flight path marker, then used full roll command. From the outside, the thing looks like a spin at first.”

And adding to gums’ description — Very effective on the pivot point of an adversary’s turn circle; essentially roll rate becomes one’s turn rate. The trick is to not fly out front of the other guy through the bottom of the fight. Then there is the matter of a deck transition lest one becomes a dirt kill.

Get two experienced hands with the same idea and it became/becomes a steeply descending canopy to canopy dance. Monumentally fun stuff...
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Gums

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Unread post10 Apr 2019, 15:14

Salute!

Yep, Quick


And adding to gums’ description — Very effective on the pivot point of an adversary’s turn circle; essentially roll rate becomes one’s turn rate. The trick is to not fly out front of the other guy through the bottom of the fight.


If the bandit was outta "e", a gun shot was usually best due to arming range of the Lima. and as JR007 used to say here, "burnng debris never reversed on anybody!"

and that sounds like it was from my last good fight, right here at Eglin about 45 years ago......
Get two experienced hands with the same idea and it became/becomes a steeply descending canopy to canopy dance. Monumentally fun stuff.


It was my last TDY with the 421st. Spring of 1984, and I retired on the flightline two months later.
Two old Ell Cols, greybeards, maybe 40 or 41 yeas old. One in an Eagle, one in a Viper. Was a two v two mission and wingies were doing their own thing about 5 miles away as we both went vertical from about 25K. Your classic vertical rolling scissors. Topped out maybe 35K and niether of us could get a good gun shot and too close for the Lima. So now we go down still canopy to canopy and decided to knock it off at 20K or so because we both realized by then we were equal. Heh heh. Many laughs during debrief, but no good video because he was always right above my shriveled brain. ACMI replay would have been a riot

Gums recalls....
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quicksilver

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Unread post10 Apr 2019, 15:52

:thumb: :salute:
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Unread post10 Apr 2019, 15:53

Thanks for the story Gums.
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quicksilver

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Unread post10 Apr 2019, 17:05

"ACMI replay would have been a riot."

Once upon a time...shortly after the earth cooled, I was getting an IP 'celebrity death match' 1v1 with a dissimilar type on a CONUS-located TACTS range; you know, the 'got a few minutes of JP left after the training requirements are complete' not unlike your example above. Dude in the other jet talked to his guy on the TACTS console and said, 'make sure you've got my cockpit view dialed up for the replay' -- meaning, of course, that he expected to have the synthetic image of my jet in his HUD at the conclusion of the engagement. We start from 1/2 mile abeam, butterfly for separation, turn in for the L to L pass and in the vertical he goes (probably thinking I wouldnt go w him). He was wrong. Notably we both fall off toward each other at about the same altitude to another L to L but with something well below 150 kts of smash. This time at the pass I rolled toward him, dumped the nose to 70-80 degrees nose low, rolled my lift vector out in front of him and went to braking stop with the nozzles. He spit out in front of me like a wet watermelon seed, but I could never get enough lead for a valid gun shot. Like you, we went round and round for about 10-15k' of altitude and then terminated at the soft deck.

"I didnt know a Harrier could do that..."

The lesson he (re)learned was, "never underestimate your adversary" -- it could cost you more than a round and some humility at the bar. 8)
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marsavian

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Unread post10 Apr 2019, 23:02

went to braking stop with the nozzles.


So a real world example of VIFF, vectoring in forward flight ?

https://tacairnet.com/2017/02/19/harrie ... ng-midair/

Wonder if the F-35B could ever develop similar tactics although it stops pretty well as it is with high AoA.
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