F-35 and Airshows

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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quicksilver

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Unread post19 Jun 2017, 23:25

Dragon029 wrote:And here's the performance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeqryYh_yw0


Great find this morning doge but when I saw it this morning I thought it was too early in the a.m. (US times) for the demonstration to have already occurred (something like 4:30 pm Paris time).

Later this afternoon I found this performance video at F35.com -- https://youtu.be/93NdwZAeXhI

Note that the pilot does a quarter turn away during the vertical extension to the power loop and pedal turn setting up a 270 degree -- counter-clockwise -- pedal turn to the original heading at onset of the pull into the vertical (vice the 180 to the opposite heading). Also note hearing the clapping crowd in the background and the media presence evident during landing rollout.

Perhaps the one posted earlier is the last of the practice sessions. Dunno...both good viewing.
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Unread post20 Jun 2017, 00:16

http://breakingdefense.com/2017/06/pilo ... d-to-rest/


Pilots Say F-35 Superior Within Visual Range: Dogfight Criticisms Laid To Rest
By COLIN CLARK

PARIS AIR SHOW: After years of criticism that the F-35 would not fare well in a dogfight and analysis that the program had made a fundamental mistake relying on the plane’s ability to kill enemies beyond visual range, Air Force F-35As will fly a demonstration here this afternoon meant to put those doubts to rest.
You can read what the flight demo is intended to demonstrate on the handout below. I asked one of the Air Force pilots, Lt. Col. Scott “Cap” Gunn, here whether the F-35 would win when fighting close-up with an enemy fighter. His answer was simple: “Without a doubt.”


Gunn told reporters at a briefing here that he had gone up against a friend in an F-16 a few months ago. Though the F-35 “performed very well,” he made clear that it hadn’t been dominant. They flew again recently and the F-16 pilot was amazed by the improvement in the F-35’s performance. “What have they done to your jet?” the pilot said, according to Gunn. “The difference is we have learned how to fly the jet… and better understand where its advantages are.”

Gunn went on to say that he “either never got it within visual range, or, if I’m going to be inside visual range, then it’s because I’m going to choose to be there.” That seems to make clear the aircraft’s vaunted fusion engine and advanced sensors — all tied into the pilot’s helmet — provides the pilot with enough warning and data to allow him to decide the terms of combat.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post20 Jun 2017, 00:31

Graphic from BrakeDaFence 'popcorn' post above: http://breakingdefense.com/wp-content/u ... 24x788.jpg
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Unread post20 Jun 2017, 00:34

OK, just watched the first official demo of the F-35 at the Paris air show. Very impressive. Flynn flew a nice, crisp routine. This plane's got power. The vertical climbing ability is solid. The F-35 can "play the vertical" if it wants. The acceleration out of high alpha into a steep climb was, frankly, a little surprising (to me). The aircraft literally started accelerating almost immediately. Coupled with an INSANE instantaneous turn rate, once they fully open up the flight envelope on this jet, "Stubby" or "Tubby" or "The Misunderstood" is going to kick some serious butt WVR. This coupled with fuel burn and thrust improvements to an engine that is already second to none :devil:
Have F110, Block 70, will travel
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Unread post20 Jun 2017, 00:39

jetblast16 wrote: ..."Stubby" or "Tubby" or "The Misunderstood" is going to kick some serious butt WVR.


It already does... :wink: 8)
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Unread post20 Jun 2017, 03:55

I've already stated somewhere around here that from certain angles, the fuselage curves / fuselage - wing blending of the F-16 evoke the graceful curves of the Spitfire. I often think of the F-16 as the "Spitfire" of the modern jet age.

From certain angles, the F-35 forebody fuselage reminds me of the angular nature of the Star Wars X-Wing.

But even so, the F-35 is what the F-16 should have been. Or the F-35 is the culmination of the F-16 (if that makes sense.)

Watching the F-35 perform these latest aerial demonstrations, the one word that keeps coming to mind is: effortless.

The Lightning is almost too smooth; she makes it look too easy.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post20 Jun 2017, 08:00

Well it seems Tom Demerly is not pleased (with a nice clickbait heading) :P
Lockheed Martin Test Pilot Billie Flynn just performed his first F-35A Flight Demo At Paris Air Show. Did he “crush years of misinformation about what this aircraft is capable of doing” as promised?

At the 2:00 mark in the video test pilot Flynn positions the F-35A at show left and performs a high-alpha, ultra low speed pass, standing the Lightning II on her tail and dancing across the Paris sky as the aircraft’s twinkle-toed elevators maintain stable flight on a boiling cushion of thrust from her growling Pratt & Whitney F135 engine. It is a spectacular sight. Enough to silence the skeptics? Hard to say. Most probably not enough, considered what people are used to see when a 4th Gen. aircraft or the F-22 are able to do during an airshow routine.

Honestly speaking the new PAS 2017 routine seems to be more dynamic than expected. But in terms of instantaneous and sustained turn rates the F-35 does not seem to match the performance of the famous super-maneuverable Sukhois, Eurofighter Typhoon, Gripen or Rafale (to name but few).

https://theaviationist.com/2017/06/19/h ... -opposite/
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Unread post20 Jun 2017, 08:09

So who is Tom Demerly?
https://tomdemerly.com/about/

Tom Demerly has written technical, editorial and equipment review articles for Outside, Velo-News, Bicycle Guide, Bicycling, Inside Triathlon, Triathlete, Triathlon Today!, USA Triathlon Magazine and many other publications.
more..
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post20 Jun 2017, 09:03

It seems like some people will never admit F-35 maneuverability and flight performance is very good now and will get even better in the future when envelope is further opened up. I've tried to find some evidence that those aircraft mentioned by Tom Demerly have better instantaneous or sustained turn rate to what F-35A showed in Paris and have found very little. I'd say F-35A performance was very similar to what slicked Eurofighter Typhoon has displayed but with better high AoA capabilities. Sukhois can do some impressive tricks especially with TVC, but overall is not that special when it comes to acceleration or turn rates.
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Unread post20 Jun 2017, 09:36

:applause: :mrgreen: Yo Dood - Proud of ya son! Billie must be younga than me but hey all that G does wonders for your complexion. :doh: Is that a FENIX watch on Billie?
F-35A Aerial Demonstration Takes Center Stage at World’s Largest Air Show
19 Jun 2017 LM PR

"...While the idea to perform a public demonstration was discussed for several years, that dream only became a reality within the last several months. Flynn, along with a team of engineers and graphic artists, worked in secret to develop a dazzling profile chock-full of 90 degree climbs, 6G turns and a pedal turn that makes the jet appear to float like a butterfly.

“We had an idea of what the show should look like,” Flynn said. “We then paired up with our engineers who helped us build maneuvers to highlight specific capabilities we wanted to emphasize. From there we fine-tuned the show in the simulator and then over the airfield in Fort Worth.”

The team of engineers, graphic professionals and animation experts flew the profile in flight simulators more than 700 times. They analyzed the data collected to develop a routine and create safety profiles in the event of an emergency. The team created animated profiles precisely mimicking the flight and as a result, Flynn was permitted to move forward with the aerial demonstration.

While it all looked great on paper and in the simulator, the real test was flying it in real life. According to Flynn, after just 10 practice flights, the team was pleasantly surprised by how predictable, repeatable and safe the aircraft’s performance was each time he flew....

...Seeing is Believing
This aerial demonstration is the first real glimpse the world will have of the robust capabilities of the F-35A. In 2016, the F-35B flew an aerial demonstration at the Royal International Air Tattoo and the Farnborough Air Show in the U.K., but that demonstration centered around the F-35B’s hover capability. The F-35A’s show emphasizes the jets aerobatic maneuvering and the jet’s raw power to climb and turn.

“Everyone needs to see how an aircraft flies and performs before they’ll ever believe in it,” Flynn said. “As compelling, overwhelming and dominating as stealth, 5th Generation aircraft are, it’s really difficult for everyone to understand the concept of what this aircraft is like without witnessing it fly in a way they are accustomed to seeing fighters perform.”

For Flynn, the demonstration is confirmation of what he believed the F-35 could do from its inception. “It is such a rush, flying the jet, and being a part of this,” Flynn said. “I’m honored to be here representing the F-35 program and Lockheed Martin and flying on behalf of the U.S. Air Force at the Paris Air Show. Seeing is truly believing!”"

Photo:"Flynn reviews notes with fellow F-35 test pilot, Jeff "Trigger" Wallace [on left of pic]. https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a6 ... __main.jpg


Source: https://www.f35.com/in-depth/detail/f-3 ... t-air-show
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Unread post20 Jun 2017, 09:40

hornetfinn wrote:It seems like some people will never admit F-35 maneuverability and flight performance is very good now and will get even better in the future when envelope is further opened up. I've tried to find some evidence that those aircraft mentioned by Tom Demerly have better instantaneous or sustained turn rate to what F-35A showed in Paris and have found very little. I'd say F-35A performance was very similar to what slicked Eurofighter Typhoon has displayed but with better high AoA capabilities. Sukhois can do some impressive tricks especially with TVC, but overall is not that special when it comes to acceleration or turn rates.


Yeah, i agree. I just rewatched PAK-FAs performance and in MAKS 2015 (yes I realize it's an underweight prototype of an underpowered fighter etc, etc), while it also did quite a nice "pedal-turn" lookalike, it was with thrust vectoring. The Acceleration and turn rates were pretty bad compared to F-35.

But regarding the eurocanards, I can understand his point of view a little bit (if I reeeaally stretch it though). Take a look at the Rafale practice session from Paris show this year. At 6:25 and onwards. Yes I know the Rafale is far from combat configuration (unlike the F-35A), so it's nowhere near a from a fair comparison, but there is a noticable difference in turn rate (at least F-35 did nothing similar during it's show).

I'm pretty sure this will change with Block 3F and a 9G. Hopfully that will shut the detractors up. And regardless as far as thrust is concerned, the competitors have absolutley nothing on F-35A ... even the F-22 runs into trouble competing at low altitude, it would seem! (no wonder though, it weights 4 metric tons more than a B-17G, when empty, and the same when loaded, for crying out loud)
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Unread post20 Jun 2017, 10:46

F-35A Makes Air Show Demo Debut as Program Picks up Speed
20 Jun 2017 Adam J. Hebert

"Le Bourget, France—The F-35A made its first-ever public demonstration flight here June 19, performing a six-minute routine meant to showcase the stealthy strike fighter’s combat capabilities. Lockheed Martin chief test pilot Alan Norman noted the routine, which closed out the day’s flying schedule, was done in a combat-ready [3i] aircraft. It included a high-rate-of-climb afterburner takeoff, a 100-knot 50-degree angle of attack low-speed pass, and a 7G minimum-radius turn.

Lockheed Martin designed and flew the routine because of the Air Force's resource limitations surrounding the F-35, although Lockheed and USAF officials noted this is exactly how the F-22’s air show routine also began a decade ago. USAF is working its way through pilot and maintainer shortages that limit its F-35 flexibility...

...Asked if an F-35 could be expected to win a close-range dogfight against most other aircraft, Lt. Col. Scott Gunn simply declared, “Without a doubt.” Gunn, an operational support squadron commander at Eglin AFB, Fla., F-35A evaluator pilot, and former AFA-Mitchell Institute fellow, flew one of the aircraft on the 10.5-hour flight from the United States to France.

Jeff Babione, Lockheed Martin’s F-35 general manager, said the company is now delivering five aircraft per month, and 220 of the fighters are now in use by eight nations and at a dozen operational bases. The unit flyaway price for USAF’s most recent “Block 10” purchase is down to $94.6 million, continuing a trend line Lockheed hopes will lead to a cost of $85 million per aircraft in 2019...."

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... Speed.aspx
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Unread post20 Jun 2017, 11:58

wrightwing wrote:So....that impressive display, was representative of a combat equipped F-35 (with envelope restrictions.) Imagine the display a 3F F-35 without any payload, and 5000lbs of fuel, could fly. No wonder they describe it as eye watering.

IDK, when they opened the bay doors during the low routine practice there wasn't anything inside. I doubt they'd only load up the plane when it's the real deal, that would defeat the purpose of practice.
"Combat configured" is a pretty vague statement, it doesn't specify any particular load. IMO it's just PR ammo to really reinforce the positive impression from the demo routine.
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Unread post20 Jun 2017, 12:05

Probably when ready the F-35 will be loaded with things. At moment I think the reference is to 3i software load which is the USAF IOC configuration for combat. Capice? From first article above yourn:
"...Lockheed Martin chief test pilot Alan Norman noted the routine, which closed out the day’s flying schedule, was done in a combat-ready [3i] aircraft...."


It would be very helpful if spokeswheelPeeps said comprehensible things instead of burbling nonsense or reporters burble nonsense - I'm not sure which - I was not there.
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Unread post20 Jun 2017, 12:25

lbk000 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:So....that impressive display, was representative of a combat equipped F-35 (with envelope restrictions.) Imagine the display a 3F F-35 without any payload, and 5000lbs of fuel, could fly. No wonder they describe it as eye watering.

IDK, when they opened the bay doors during the low routine practice there wasn't anything inside. I doubt they'd only load up the plane when it's the real deal, that would defeat the purpose of practice.
"Combat configured" is a pretty vague statement, it doesn't specify any particular load. IMO it's just PR ammo to really reinforce the positive impression from the demo routine.


Well, F-35 in airshows would basically only need those weapons and fuel to go to combat. Most other fighters would also need external fuel tanks (very rare not to), targeting pod (for A/G) and possibly ECM pod along with pylons to carry all that. And let's not forget all the support assets 4th gen fighters would need to be effective and survive (EW support, decoys, SEAD/DEAD, counter-air).
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