F-35B (Non-US) Pocket Carriers

[Corsair1963]

Yes, far more complicated then just adding a Ski Jump at the bow....

[wrightwing]

42 F-35Bs for Japan here also: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24808&p=425329&hilit=NHKworld#p425329

Do you know if these 42 F-35Bs are in addition to the 147 F-35As, or a part of that total?

[spazsinbad]

Part of the total IIRC: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24808&p=407852&hilit=acquire#p407852 page 19 of this thread.

Earlier:
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24808&p=407613&hilit=acquire#p407613
&
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24808&p=387129&hilit=acquire#p387129

With massive F-35 increase, Japan is now biggest international buyer
18 Dec 2018 Aaron Mehta

"...Tokyo previously planned to procure 42 F-35A models. However, a source close to the program confirmed that Japan will be adding 63 F-35A models, as well as 42 F-35B models, for a total of 147 F-35 fighters...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... nal-buyer/

[spazsinbad]

via E-mail - TRIESTE August 2019.

[hythelday]

Naval news from the Asia:

USMC To Fly First F-35B From Japan’s Izumo-Class Aircraft Carriers

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -carriers/

U.S. Marine Corps' F-35B STOVL fighters will be the first fixed wing aircraft to fly from Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) Izumo-class "helicopter destroyers", following the conversion of both JS Izumo and JS Kaga into aircraft carriers.
...
JS Izumo, which was commissioned in March 2015, is scheduled for a refit and overhaul period in 2020, while JS Kaga, which was commissioned at the in March 2017, is expected to conduct its technical stop in 2022. Work on the ships will include a new heat resistant coating on the deck as well as overall maintenance of the platform and propulsion system.
...
With these factors in mind, the Japanese government made an official request to the USMC. It specifically asked during the meeting “for cooperation and advice on how to operate the fighter on the deck of the modified ships” to which General Neller said he would “help as much as possible”.

and

ROK Navy To Get Aircraft Carrier, Arsenal Ship As Part Of Ambitious 5-Year Defense Plan

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ense-plan/

Conceptual development of the amphibious ship (that would act as an aircraft carrier) is set to begin next year, with commissioning with Republic of Korea Navy expected for the early 2030s. The vessel, displacing around 30,000 tons would be based on the existing Dokdo-class amphibious assault ship and would be able to accommodate around 20 F-35B STOVL fighters.

[Corsair1963]

QUOTE:


JS Izumo, which was commissioned in March 2015, is scheduled for a refit and overhaul period in 2020, while JS Kaga, which was commissioned at the in March 2017, is expected to conduct its technical stop in 2022. Work on the ships will include a new heat resistant coating on the deck as well as overall maintenance of the platform and propulsion system.


It will take about 5 years (from budgeting to deployment) for the F-35B to be fully inducted with the Japan Air Self Defense Force (JASDF). As we reported recently, the “air force” and not the “navy” will be flying the aircraft.

Another sad day for Naval Aviation....

Yet, not unexpected.

[Corsair1963]

Honestly, bad mistake to allow Air Force Pilot to operate from Aircraft Carriers in general..."IMHO"


This not just because of Navy Pride. As Naval Aviators progress up the change of command. They become Air Wing Commanders, XO, and Captains. Some even achieve Flag Rank (Admirals) and become Battle Group Commanders. I doubt the JMSDF is going to let Air Force Officers run their ships and command their fleets.

[spazsinbad]

Before becoming too outraged it may be best to look at the 'original' guess on the matter at hand: [blog author a flake?]

Japan Officially Selects F-35B Fighter as STOVL Aircraft
17 Aug 2019 Xavier Vavasseur

"...During our visit aboard JS Izumo in Singapore (IMDEX Asia naval defense show in May), the officers categorically refused to answer questions about the expected modification work.

During MAST Asia 2019 held near Tokyo in June, an ATLA representative said it was still too early to tell what these modifications will consist in, which shipyard would be in charge of the work, and when the work will be conducted. Asked about which service would be flying the F-35B, the ATLA representative told Naval News that it was “not decided yet”. However a Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF) standing nearby joined the conversation and said that, in his opinion, “the F-35B would be owned and flown by the ASDF because the MSDF doesn’t operate fast jets”. Yesterday’s statement from the MoD seems to confirm this early information because it mentions “ASDF requirements”...."

Source: https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -aircraft/

[Corsair1963]

Most recent source says the JSADF will operate the F-35B's from the Izumo not the JMSDF. Honestly, I hope that turns out to be wrong. Yet, considering the history of the F-35B in service with the UK and Italy. Don't give me a lot of hope...

[spazsinbad]

What is the most recent source? Italian Navy Pilots will fly Italian Navy F-35Bs. Italian Air Force Pilots will fly Italian Air Force F-35Bs and as far as an Italian Admiral is concerned - never the twain shall meet - but now it is up for discussion only because Italian Air Force interference. That air forces want to horn in on NAVY fixed wing is nothing new. Is why I'm banned from pPrune. I kept calling the RAF: CRABS & they don't like it but I DON'T LIKE THEM as I have indicated earlier.

[Corsair1963]

What is the most recent source? Italian Navy Pilots will fly Italian Navy F-35Bs. Italian Air Force Pilots will fly Italian Air Force F-35Bs and as far as an Italian Admiral is concerned - never the twain shall meet - but now it is up for discussion only because Italian Air Force interference. That air forces want to horn in on NAVY fixed wing is nothing new. Is why I'm banned from pPrune. I kept calling the RAF: CRABS & they don't like it but I DON'T LIKE THEM as I have indicated earlier.

Don't see how just 15 F-35B's would be enough to support a single Italian Navy Squadron. Let alone if required to support both the Cavour and the forthcoming Trieste. Clearly, this means Italian Air Force F-35B's are part of the equation.

Point here is the Italian Navy should have gotten all of the 30 F-35B's. Again local governments are allowing their "Air Forces" to butt in on Navy TERRITORY. Which, is a detriment to the defense of Italy and her interest....

"IMHO"

[spazsinbad]

Your opinion is "CLEARLY" to you however the Italian Admiral has said that the Navy/Air Force F-35Bs will NOT cross train.

This article is OLD and there is a NEW discussion about Navy/Air Force F-35B 'bases' etc. however read the entire articles.

The Italian Approach to the F-35: A Discussion with Rear Admiral Covella
08 Nov 2013 Robbin Laird

"...The head of the Italian Air Force had underscored during his interview that the 60/40 split between the As and Bs was being done because the Air Force saw the need for expeditionary flexibility. “We want to go to the mission, not the airfield.”

Q: What is your view of how the Italian Navy and Air Force will evolve in their use of the B, especially because they will be based at the same facility?
A: Commonality is a great way to go forward in the future. There will be two squadrons of Bs, one for the Navy and one for the Air Force. The missions are different.

The Air Force is focused on expeditionary use of the aircraft and will focus on its ability to operate off of short airfields in operations to be closer to the action, so to speak.

The Navy is focused on the way we use carriers. We do not use the carrier as the US does; we do not deploy for 6 months at a time. We need to go out and be ready to go without a significant build up time. We look at the F-35B as providing a more capable ramp up capability for the Cavour.

The two competencies are different. The Navy is focused on the ability to operate rapidly during the carrier’s operation in fleet activities as the main “ship weapon system”; the Air Force is focused on a specialized expeditionary operational focus.

USMC F-35B pilots, some of whom are Harrier pilots, have emphasized that an impact of the B versus the Harrier is a reduction of time necessary to recertify pilots during an operational period. The point made is that after performing a mission, the Harrier pilots would then – because of the complexity of flying the aircraft – need time to do some flying to recertify their flying skills.

It has been emphasized that the B will dramatically reduce the need to do so, and enhance provide for more mission time with regard to the planes aboard the small deck carrier. The Admiral agreed to this point and elaborated.

A: I am a Harrier pilot. Your point is well taken. We expect to get more mission time out of the F-35B than we have been able to get out of the Harrier. If you cut out the recertification time necessary for the Harrier pilots, then the B will allow you more mission time. When I was on the WASP, the pilots made it clear that the B was much easier to fly. And when the aircraft lands it is very stable...."

ALSO: https://sldinfo.com/2013/10/re-thinking ... of-cavour/

Source: https://sldinfo.com/2013/11/the-italian ... l-covella/

[spazsinbad]

It is fascinating in a sense of some amusement at the way the Japanese torture themselves about 'aircraft carriers' & such.

U.S. fighter jets eyed as 1st users of retrofitted Izumo carrier
21 Aug 2019 TAKATERU DOI

"The government has been caught in a lie over its plans to retrofit the Izumo destroyer and effectively transform the vessel into an aircraft carrier. Officials initially presented the project as simply one that would strengthen the nation's ability to defend outlying islands and secure the safety of Self-Defense Force pilots by reducing their flight times.

When Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya was asked by opposition lawmakers in March if U.S. fighter jets would be allowed to use the Izumo, he stated that only if the aircraft had no closer landing points while flying out at sea. It now turns out that Japanese officials then informed their U.S. counterparts that U.S. fighter jets would likely be the first to use the Izumo for landings and take-offs. [What about ITF F-35Bs testing the IZUMO similar to test of QE last year and now this year?]

Improvements to the Izumo deck and other measures to allow aircraft to land and take off from the ship will finish in fiscal 2020. Another MSDF destroyer, the Kaga, will also be retrofitted, with plans calling for completion in fiscal 2022.

The government has also approved a plan to purchase U.S.-made F-35B fighter jets which have short take-off and vertical landing capabilities. The F-35B jets will be mainly used on the Izumo and Kaga, but the aircraft will not be deployed until after fiscal 2024. That leaves open the possibility of at least a three-year period when the Izumo would be capable of being used as an aircraft carrier, but with the Air SDF having no such aircraft in its arsenal.... [one can read the rest]

...The F-35B fighter jets to be operated by the ASDF will normally be based on land and only be deployed to the Izumo when the need arises. But some Defense Ministry officials point to the fact that a high degree of skill and training are required to land fighter jets on a ship in motion at sea and question whether the vessel will be able to function effectively, given it does not have aircraft permanently based on it." [What a weird point to make? how else can it be?]

Source: http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201908210022.html

[sferrin]

It is fascinating in a sense of some amusement at the way the Japanese torture themselves about 'aircraft carriers' & such.

U.S. fighter jets eyed as 1st users of retrofitted Izumo carrier
21 Aug 2019 TAKATERU DOI

"The government has been caught in a lie over its plans to retrofit the Izumo destroyer and effectively transform the vessel into an aircraft carrier. Officials initially presented the project as simply one that would strengthen the nation's ability to defend outlying islands and secure the safety of Self-Defense Force pilots by reducing their flight times.

When Defense Minister Takeshi Iwaya was asked by opposition lawmakers in March if U.S. fighter jets would be allowed to use the Izumo, he stated that only if the aircraft had no closer landing points while flying out at sea. It now turns out that Japanese officials then informed their U.S. counterparts that U.S. fighter jets would likely be the first to use the Izumo for landings and take-offs. [What about ITF F-35Bs testing the IZUMO similar to test of QE last year and now this year?]

Improvements to the Izumo deck and other measures to allow aircraft to land and take off from the ship will finish in fiscal 2020. Another MSDF destroyer, the Kaga, will also be retrofitted, with plans calling for completion in fiscal 2022.

The government has also approved a plan to purchase U.S.-made F-35B fighter jets which have short take-off and vertical landing capabilities. The F-35B jets will be mainly used on the Izumo and Kaga, but the aircraft will not be deployed until after fiscal 2024. That leaves open the possibility of at least a three-year period when the Izumo would be capable of being used as an aircraft carrier, but with the Air SDF having no such aircraft in its arsenal.... [one can read the rest]

...The F-35B fighter jets to be operated by the ASDF will normally be based on land and only be deployed to the Izumo when the need arises. But some Defense Ministry officials point to the fact that a high degree of skill and training are required to land fighter jets on a ship in motion at sea and question whether the vessel will be able to function effectively, given it does not have aircraft permanently based on it." [What a weird point to make? how else can it be?]

Source: http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201908210022.html

I don't get it either, especially since China is building it's THIRD carrier and just laid down a second 36,000 ton LHD.

[spazsinbad]

Further to the 'ITALIAN MOB' issue with F-35Bs in NAVY/Air Force (this article below is in this forum but no longer online).

Earlier quote about 'pooling' the 30 F-35Bs (but as noted otherwise Air Force F-35B Pilots do NOT FLY NAVY missions.

"...If the STOVL fleet is 30 aircraft, neither the Navy nor the Air Force would be able to manage, one analyst said. “If the Air Force wants a squadron, 15 aircraft is not enough,” said former Italian military chief of staff Gen. Vincenzo Camporini, now a vice president at the Italian think tank IAI. The only solution, he said, is for the two services to operate one pooled fleet. “This has to be the future, otherwise it is unsustainable,” he said. “There should not be a problem for pilots if their aircraft was being used by another service the week before an operation.”..." http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... /305150010 15 May 2012

Also earlier quote from Italian Navy that 22 F-35Bs was their minimum:

15 May 2012 "...Rear Adm. Paolo Treu, head of Italian naval aviation, [said] that 22 STOVL aircraft, not 15, is the absolute minimum number the Navy can order...." viewtopic.php?f=58&t=18094&p=223614&hilit=Bernardis#p223614

F-35 Base-Sharing Plan Defuses Spat Between Italy’s AF
02 Jul 2012 TOM KINGTON & VAGO MURADIAN

“...Italy has confirmed a base sharing plan for its 30 Navy and Air Force short-takeoff, vertical-landing (STOVL) aircraft, which is set to save on maintenance and support. The fighters — 15 for the Navy and 15 for the Air Force — will be grouped at the Navy’s Grottaglie base in southern Italy, which currently hosts the Navy’s AV-8 Harrier jump jets....

...“The arrangement with the Italian Ministry of Defense, which issued the directive on this, was that the Air Force and Navy would put two squadrons of 15 aircraft in a single base, and we accepted to share the base with the Navy at Grottaglie close to where the [Italian carrier] Cavour is stationed,” said Gen. Giuseppe Bernardis, Italian Air Force chief. ... “Supportability is a key issue with two squadrons of 15 and 15 [STOVLs],” Bernardis said. “We think 30 is a number that is sustainable, and that is why we are going together. We will have common support and different advanced training.”

Bernardis said the two squadrons would not fall under one command, nor would Air Force pilots get into the habit of flying from the decks of the Cavour. “That is something we are not aiming at now, but in case of need, we are ready to do everything,” he said. “We don’t want a replica of the U.K. system where the [Royal Air Force] & Royal Navy Harriers are under one single line of command. The British model creates too many controversies between the two forces.

“But what is important is that we could switch JSF aircraft between the two services,” he said. “The aircraft will be owned by the two forces, but in case of necessity, the Air Force vision is that pilots from one force could fly the aircraft belonging to the other force.”...

...“We commissioned a Lockheed Martin study 12 years ago about mixed fleet capability and we think in many instances, the use of the F-35B could make the difference between having and not having a suitable runway for land operations,” he said....”

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... -s-AF-Navy