F-35B (Non-US) Pocket Carriers

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 04:01

Honestly, I don't see what's the big issue for either side. Will Australia acquire F-35B's in the short-term for the Canberra Class LHD's.....NO.....Will it in the future....MAYBE.


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optimist

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 04:05

There really is a lot more to it, than buying a flat top and sticking some f-35b on it. It's a whole change in conops and the other associate supporting assets.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 04:20

optimist wrote:There really is a lot more to it, than buying a flat top and sticking some f-35b on it. It's a whole change in conops and the other associate supporting assets.



Sure there is.....Yet, it's not like Australia is sending a man to the moon either. OMG some make it sound like such a "colossal" undertaking. Hell, the BPE (Juan Carlos, Canberra, and Anadolu) were designed from the start to operate F-35B's.
:doh:
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steve2267

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 04:23

Corsair1963 wrote:Sure there is.....Yet, it's not like Australia is sending a man to the moon either. OMG some make it sound like such a "colossal" undertaking. Hell, the BPE (Juan Carlos, Canberra, and Anadolu) were designed from the start to operate F-35B's.
:doh:


Now, now. Don't go confusing the issue. :doh: :drool:
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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optimist

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 05:14

We are going to tag along with america. We aren't going anywhere noisy by ourselves. The only reason the ski ramp is still on them. Is because it was going to cost too much to remove it during construction.

Those two RAN ships are fully utilised in other conops, sticking some f-35b on them won't work. For lots of reasons including its footprint.

The RAN have said they will need other flat tops and assests if the gov. wants to move in that direction. There is always a politician that thinks it's a good idea. It really is a big undertaking, a change of CONOPS and take a budget that will choke a horse.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 05:51

My guess is after Spain and Turkey start flying F-35B's from their BPE's. Australia will see the light! Regardless, we will just have to wait and see who is right..... :wink:
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blindpilot

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 05:56

Corsair1963 wrote:My guess is after Spain and Turkey start flying F-35B's from their BPE's. Australia will see the light! Regardless, we will just have to wait and see who is right..... :wink:


Australia already punches way above its weight class. If you want to send them another couple $billion a year, they might consider it. How much is in your checkbook? Why don't you buy them one? :wink:

MHO
BP
Last edited by blindpilot on 09 Jan 2018, 06:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 05:59

blindpilot wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:My guess is after Spain and Turkey start flying F-35B's from their BPE's. Australia will see the light! Regardless, we will just have to wait and see who is right..... :wink:


Australia already punches way above its weight class. If you want to send them another couple $billion a year, they might consider it. How much is in your checkbook? Why don't you buy them one?

MHO
BP


Feel free to believe what you like.......
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optimist

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 06:05

I don't know how many times they need to say NO. They said it again in 2015 and have been saying it since the first thoughts on a LHD 20 years ago. Only forums and some clueless politicians think it's easy. You got a ship, you got a plane that can fly off it..put them together. Others do it, where's the problem?

http://australianaviation.com.au/2015/0 ... ds-report/
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blindpilot

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 06:23

Corsair1963 wrote:
blindpilot wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:My guess is after Spain and Turkey start flying F-35B's from their BPE's. Australia will see the light! Regardless, we will just have to wait and see who is right..... :wink:


Australia already punches way above its weight class. If you want to send them another couple $billion a year, they might consider it. How much is in your checkbook? Why don't you buy them one?

MHO
BP


Feel free to believe what you like.......


Just saying Spain has twice the people, Turkey three times the population, and Spain has $B500 more, Turkey almost twice the GDP(PPP). Some decisions need to be made. Money spent on Peter will come from Paul. They aren't going in shooting in nasty places without US/UK support. What they can provide will be appreciated by the US/UK.

Those places they would go alone, Pacific island peacekeeping/humanitarian, the current LHD's will serve well. And as a I noted they punch above weight class enough that even mid level conflicts, ?Indian Ocean/Indonesian area?, can be dealt with the forces planned.

If Canada gave half the commitment as Australia does, that would make more difference to them than shuffling priorities down under. Let Canada buy a small F-35B carrier ... oh never mind ... I forgot ... they can't even get an Icebreaker out of the wet paper bag.

Would I like to see an Aussie shiney flagship with Bee's? Sure, it'd be cool. But at what cost? And I have no complaints at what they can do(and have done in the past). As an American, I'll take an Aussie LHD helping out, over a Spanish/Turkish carrier every day of the week and twice on Sunday. We'll bring the B's, and know we'll have a trustworthy place to park them when we're down there.

MHO,
BP
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 06:33

blindpilot wrote:
Just saying Spain has twice the people, Turkey three times the population, and Spain has $B500 more, Turkey almost twice the GDP(PPP). Some decisions need to be made. Money spent on Peter will come from Paul. They aren't going in shooting in nasty places without US/UK support. What they can provide will be appreciated by the US/UK.

Those places they would go alone, Pacific island peacekeeping/humanitarian, the current LHD's will serve well. And as a I noted they punch above weight class enough that even mid level conflicts, ?Indian Ocean/Indonesian area?, can be dealt with the forces planned.

If Canada gave half the commitment as Australia does, that would make more difference to them than shuffling priorities down under. Let Canada buy a small F-35B carrier ... oh never mind ... I forgot ... they can't even get an Icebreaker out of the wet paper bag.

Would I like to see an Aussie shiney flagship with Bee's? Sure, it'd be cool. But at what cost? And I have no complaints at what they can do(and have done in the past). As an American, I'll take an Aussie LHD helping out, over a Spanish/Turkish carrier every day of the week and twice on Sunday. We'll bring the B's, and know we'll have a trustworthy place to park them when we're down there.

MHO,
BP



Australia is a valued partner of the US and consistently punches above its weight! (something Canada use to do) Yet, that has very little with the discussion at hand.......
Last edited by Corsair1963 on 09 Jan 2018, 06:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 06:34

Even when a new recent thread was created - solely for this topic - the blah blah blah goes on & on elsewhere - I give up.

Does the RAN have any plans to get back in the carrier game? 17 Nov 2017

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=53630
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 06:48

Maybe some should just accept that others have different opinions..... :?
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blindpilot

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 08:59

Corsair1963 wrote:Maybe some should just accept that others have different opinions..... :?


Moving away from the dead horse that keeps twitching...

Some opinions do not seem to understand naval aviation and the ecosystem that comes with it. China is building some new carriers, soon perhaps even a CATOBAR ship. They have some aircraft they wish to use on it. Aircraft like the Russians use that had TWO CRASHES in their recent short show of capability cruise in the Med. And they have more experience in Carrier ops than the Turks or Chinese. The best that can be said for the Chinese is they seem to realize the path ahead will not be easy.

Really apart from the US, only France, Spain, India, and the UK have the core of the infrastructure in place. Brazil and Argentina have joined Australia in dropping it. Italy has only been at the game since the 1989 drop of the 1937 ban. They are just getting up to speed almost 30 years later. The UK has been aggressively exchanging with US ships just to keep from losing the edge during a short less than a decade hiatus.

You can't just put a Harrier on a cargo ship have have naval aviation. (ask Thailand) Any opinion that assumes this is clueless. Any nation that is serious about it, even with pocket carriers needs a plan to evolve the entire ecosystem. At BEST, if they don't they will find they crash 2 aircraft every short cruise. Ask the UK if you can just restart it cold after only five years without operations, much less reclaim it from the '80's.

The F-35B does not just make any old ship a carrier. The Marines have been doing this since the beginnings of carrier aviation, and even STOVL since 1971. That's almost 50 years continuous grooming of the infrastructure! Italy has almost got 30 years now, and they just got their first truly effective ship (Cavour).

You don't just buy 30 F-35Bs and have a carrier. You have to commit to a deep logistical base, long term training progression, and serious mission focused design changes. That takes serious money. And time. The Japanese and S Koreans, if they pursue the path, fully expect that expense and the time it takes to evolve the system.

To be honest even if the US were simply? to decide to add two more CVs and/or a couple more LHAs, it would be a considerable undertaking for the US Navy. Probably not much less expensive/complex than the Chinese trying to get a few carriers going themselves. Carrier aviation is a well oiled machine, that does really bad things if you forget to change the oil. When each ship goes into depot/rehaul is a ballet dance that can crash like a house of cards if the shipyards get out of sync, and you lose irrecoverable institutional knowledge to Apple and Toyota.

No I don't think much of an opinion that you can just buy 30 F-35B's and have a carrier. That takes a serious (expensive) commitment.

BUT ... that is just my opinion, (well and the opinion of a whole lot of other folks that would know)
BP

PS Take twenty minutes and watch this 2 part PBS documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gGMI8d3vLs
Then ask yourself. Where do you get that LtCmd who landed the last plane? Where do you get the navy crew that worked that ship? Where do you get the deck and below deck design/arrangements that manage all the aircraft and equipment moving around that deck?
You don't get them at the 30 F-35Bs, two for one discount, Dollar store, just because it would be cool.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 09:34

What did it take for the RAN to acquire and build the Hobart and Canberra Class Destroyers and LHD's. :doh:
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