F-35B (Non-US) Pocket Carriers

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1st503rdsgt

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Unread post08 Oct 2012, 18:48

spazsinbad wrote:Will the expendable rocket trolley catapulting ski jumping running standing still trimaran have only VL recoveries? Wot? No SKYHOOK? Bugga. So now not as much BrungBack?


It looks to have running recoveries of some kind, but the angle on that runway...

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Unread post08 Oct 2012, 18:53

spazsinbad wrote:...Bugga. So now not as much BrungBack?


...on another thread we discovered CVL ("Creepy Landings") by BF-1 at PAX. :?: :idea: :?: :lol:
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Unread post08 Oct 2012, 19:11

I'd rather F-35B landing info be on this thread please? Tah.

F-35B UK SRVL INFO - updated when new/old

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-20304.html (stroll to end of 1st page)
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Unread post08 Oct 2012, 19:20

The idiotic angle for angle deck landings on the trimaran has not been thought through I suspect. Perhaps it will be workable on the super-duper-computer-controlled-futuristic-aircraft wot will use it but already probably the 9 degree angle deck used by CVNs is 'angled enough' for practical purposes. To get the wind down the angle the ship must steam 'angled off' from prevailing wind to get wind down angle. If NIL wind then the ship makes all the wind causing other issues for the angle deck approach. With extreme angles then there are other effects from superstructure but my guess would be an approach to such an extreme angle will be impossible in practice.

Remember this: the ship moves forward, the angle deck moves forward and to the right relative to the approaching aircraft which in turn has to jink to the right in small amounts constantly to remain lined up. There is no drifting to the deck for lineup. Every parameter must be spot on as good as can be during the entire approach. This is why deck landing is not so easy. Every parameter is changing with the pilot changing in at least three bits of + then minus to get to OK but then another change to remain there but it all changes again. There are good explanations about carrier landings under ideal conditions out there that don't really explain the small constant changes required. That is why an OK underlined approach (the GOLD/GREEN standard) is so difficult to achieve in practice. Dare I say my PDF about such matters is helpful but the 'how to deck land' PDF is complex reading because I don't attempt to pull all the strands together myself.

Perhaps the task of landing on this tritemaran is easier if only SRVLs used with the superdupercomputercontrols automatically compensating for the horrendous conditions but I would rather use a SKYHOOK. :D
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Unread post08 Oct 2012, 19:51

Spaz, I'm not gonna presume to argue with you over the 'idiotic angle' (looks pretty stupid to me as well), but would it be workable if the ship was only making steerage-way speed? Of course, my guess is that a more mature design would just straighten it out a bit.
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Unread post08 Oct 2012, 19:59

'steerage way' forward speed would help but then there are other factors. What is the natural wind speed and is it convenient to 'steer slowly appropriately' when perhaps the situation requires a fast ship speed. Yes conventional carriers have limitations and also have an ideal WOD to achieve but everything is fungible within limits.

If the natural wind is high then the catamaran needs to negate it such that your WOD is minimal (as suggested by 'steerage way but you have probably assumed NIL windage). In 'stormy weather' this desired effect may not be possible and will also cause adverse effects on the sea-keeping ability of this tricatmaran or whatever. The SKYHOOK is best. :D
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Unread post08 Oct 2012, 20:10

Spaz, that looks like some serious crazy.

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Unread post08 Oct 2012, 20:14

No more than the other crazy. :D
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Unread post08 Oct 2012, 20:27

There are all manner of crazy concepts out there (a lot of which involve ski-jump mods for container/ro-ro ships), but I suppose that's the beauty of STOVL fighters like the F-35. It allows people to experiment with different ideas (though not always good ones).
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Unread post08 Oct 2012, 21:21

Certainly there have been some practical ideas down the years but how they work when built/operated might be another matter. I guess today with advanced computing power a lot of ideas can be trashed before too much effort is spent upon them. Probably simple is good and a ski jump flat deck of a suitable size certainly fits the bill.
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Unread post08 Oct 2012, 21:44

spazsinbad wrote:Certainly there have been some practical ideas down the years but how they work when built/operated might be another matter. I guess today with advanced computing power a lot of ideas can be trashed before too much effort is spent upon them. Probably simple is good and a ski jump flat deck of a suitable size certainly fits the bill.


As in Cavour, the best light-carrier design I've seen so far. I really gotta hand it to the Italians here; that is one fine ship. I can hardly wait to see the Bees trying it out.

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http://www.military-today.com/navy/cavour.htm
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Unread post08 Oct 2012, 21:48

1st503rdsgt wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Will the expendable rocket trolley catapulting ski jumping running standing still trimaran have only VL recoveries? Wot? No SKYHOOK? Bugga. So now not as much BrungBack?


It looks to have running recoveries of some kind, but the angle on that runway...

Image

If you are going to do a trimaran carrier with a ski-jump, you should have the take-off runway go the length of the ship, and have a shorter landing strip on one of the out riggers -- so that you wouldn't need to angle it.
Alternately, you could have a deck that is one big rectangle it's whole length and width, letting you have multiple full-length runways.
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Unread post08 Oct 2012, 21:55

spazsinbad wrote:Certainly there have been some practical ideas down the years but how they work when built/operated might be another matter. I guess today with advanced computing power a lot of ideas can be trashed before too much effort is spent upon them. Probably simple is good and a ski jump flat deck of a suitable size certainly fits the bill.

Besides specifics for the ship, one of the things they started doing with the Virgina class submarine was modeling how operations would work on the ship. For the sub, it was just a model of a human being to make sure that all the required maintenance was physically possible, but, for an aircraft carrier, they could model all of the aircraft and ordinance movements that would be required for various operations in order to optimize the flight deck and elevators.
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Unread post08 Oct 2012, 22:04

Cavour was modelled after a USN study for a 'Sea Control Ship' back in the 1970s. Here is a Utube Video URL:

Aircraft carrier Italy CAVOUR.flv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGQSmc_H1CQ
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Unread post08 Oct 2012, 22:09

Elaborate software/hardware setup already in use for F-35B/C flat deck/human interaction:

CHIL - Collaborative Human Immersive Lab Search for "CHIL" on this forum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itOxIpj6 ... e=youtu.be
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Total Immersion (Immersive Engineering) SAIL

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... hil#218709
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