F-35B (Non-US) Pocket Carriers

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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lookieloo

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Unread post03 Dec 2015, 04:21

All interesting concepts: but there's a point of diminishing-returns in shrinking carriers. About 20,000 tons seems to be the minimal useful size for F-35B embarkation, and closer to 30,000 tons is more practical. Then there's the question on whether to go with a pure light-carrier (Cavour/Izumo), or something with a well-deck (Juan-Carlos/Wasp). CVLs typically have advantages in speed, seakeeping, and sustained operations, while amphibs are adaptable to a wider range of military and nonmilitary functions.

Just remember that not everything with a flat deck is F-35B compatible; here the quick of it.

-Wasp: yes
-America: yes
-Cavour: yes
-Juan Carlos: yes
-Izumo: probably
-Hyūga: probably not
-Dokdo: probably not
-Mistral: no
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popcorn

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Unread post03 Dec 2015, 04:30

That Austal design seems awfully stubby. Yes it does have a ramp but I wonder if it has enough length to allow a STO with full internal fuel and weapons load?3
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tritonprime

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Unread post03 Dec 2015, 05:46

Artist's impression of BAE Systems LHD concept circa 2011.

Source: http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2011/07/l ... -question/

Via Google Translate:
BAE Systems has put on the market the design of a LHD based on HMS Ocean. The ship is 210 feet long and displaces 23,000 tons. The maximum speed is 22 knots and the range of 7000 miles. The crew of about 300 sailors and 800 marines can take. The flight deck can operate six medium helicopters simultaneously and carry six in the hangar. There is space to carry 250 tons of cargo and 100 vehicles.


Source:
http://www.naval.com.br/blog/2011/07/29 ... e-systems/
Attachments
BAE-Landing-Helicopter-Dock1.jpg
BAE-Landing-Helicopter-Dock.jpg
Last edited by tritonprime on 03 Dec 2015, 06:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post03 Dec 2015, 06:08

Blohm+Voss Class LHD
Blohm+Voss Landing Platform Helicopter Dockship (LHD)
Designed and built to the proven standards of the Classification Society Germanische Lloyd, the Blohm+Voss LHD provides a cost-effective means of transporting, putting ashore and supporting a mechanised battalion and its vehicles and equipment by helicopter, landing craft, hovercraft and rafts.

Critical commercial standards have been navalised to harden the ship, in particular in the aspects of vulnerability and damage control arrangements. The ship fits the necessary sensors and effectors for self-defence. The Blohm+Voss LHD’s design uniquely incorporates a stepped ‘Multi-Purpose Deck’ aft, which can be a landing spot for a helicopter, with horizontal hangar access, or used for the stowing of up to 54 TEU containers, allowing the ship to carry a large amount of logistic support equipment and stores without interrupting flying operations, as the large 4800 m² main flight deck remains clear with four landing spots and vertical hangar access. The Main Flight and Multi-Purpose Decks are served by a 24-ton slewing crane. A spacious 985 m² well-dock plus four davit positions provide for carrying of up to eight landing craft of various types. Vehicles are stowed on a special 2250 m² vehicle deck, with RO-RO access via stern and side ramps. Furthermore, the Blohm+Voss LHD is equipped for theatre-level Command and Control of amphibious operations, extensive casualty evacuation and hospital facilities and is capable of carrying 1000 tons of cargo. These capabilities for amphibious operations give this ship superb inherent capabilities for humanitarian operations, disaster relief, and for general logistic support of remote stations and islands. The robust, proven and economical diesel-electric propulsion system driving two CPPs is simple to operate and maintain but provides for superior acoustic signatures, vulnerability and shock resistance as well as a shallower navigating draught than other propulsion arrangements, such as pod-mounted drives.
Technical Data
Main Dimensions

Length o.a. 209.0 m
Beam max. 31.3 m
Draft

6.45 m
Displacement

22,900 t
Speed 21 kn
Range

10,000 nm/12 kn
Propulsion Plant

Diesel Electric
Diesel propulsion generators 6
Electric propulsion motors 2
Complement

Crew 534
Embarked Forces 900
Helicopter Payload



Landing spots 5

10 t Hangar
4
Amphibious Payload

Well Dock 4 x LCM or
2 x LCAC or
1 x LCAT
on Davits 4 x LCVP
2 x RHIB
Vehicle Payload

Main battle tanks 6
amphibious vehicles 20
heavy trucks 40


Source: https://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems. ... s-lhd.html
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LHD.jpg
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lookieloo

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Unread post05 Dec 2015, 01:55

The BAE and Blohm+Voss concepts don't appear to be fixed-wing capable. There's more to it than just having a flat deck.
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lookieloo

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Unread post06 Dec 2015, 03:55

popcorn wrote:That Austal design seems awfully stubby. Yes it does have a ramp but I wonder if it has enough length to allow a STO with full internal fuel and weapons load?3
Most STOVL takeoff runs don't use the whole deck on the big amphibs. So it might work... but it would likely have other issues besides length.
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popcorn

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Unread post06 Dec 2015, 04:38

lookieloo wrote:
popcorn wrote:That Austal design seems awfully stubby. Yes it does have a ramp but I wonder if it has enough length to allow a STO with full internal fuel and weapons load?3
Most STOVL takeoff runs don't use the whole deck on the big amphibs. So it might work... but it would likely have other issues besides length.


Unlikely..
Austal design = 112m = 367.5 ft
USMC F-35B STO KPP = 600 ft
RN CVF F-35B STO (Ramp) KPP = 450 ft
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post07 Dec 2015, 03:47

popcorn wrote:Unlikely..
Austal design = 112m = 367.5 ft
USMC F-35B STO KPP = 600 ft
RN CVF F-35B STO (Ramp) KPP = 450 ft
So tiny catamaran-hull carriers are still a no go. However, I may have to eat my words on the Dokdo-class. This is a tough one to figure out due to language-barriers and tendency of online content out of Asia to blend fantasy, reality, and plausibility. It's pretty hard to tell where one ends and the other begins, or which comes first; but rumor seems to indicate that the South Koreans are looking to build a second LHD that incorporates at-least some fixed-wing capability. Supposedly, the ship is already under construction and expected to enter service in 2018; though I'm unable to find any photos of the Marado on the ways.

Sources include:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dokdo-cla ... sault_ship Of course, only good for the most basic info.
...The second unit, ROKS Marado, is named after Marado Island, commonly thought of as being both the ending and beginning point of the Korean Peninsula. Today a monument stands there recognizing it as the southernmost point of the country. This ship was cancelled once, but the budget was restored in 2012. A ski ramp for operations of V/STOL jet fighters is being considered for Marado...


https://voat.co/v/ModernPowers/comments/370352/1533728 This appears to be spillage into online RPG-gaming.
...Currently under construction by Hanjin Heavy Industries, the ROKS Marado is expected to be commissioned in October of 2018. This ship will feature several improvements over it's older sister, the ROKS Dokdo. Chief among these improvements is the addition of a ski ramp to better handle the operation of STOVL jet fighters like the F-35B, the first of which will be delivered in July, shortly before the ROKS Marado's commissioning...


http://themess.net/forum/military-discu ... -class-lpx This is a forum thread started with a Hongul source that I can't read or gauge the accuracy of.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/dodko-class/
...The ship can operate short-range and VTOL (vertical take-off and landing) aircraft such as the Harrier or F-35B, when equipped with a ski jump board module...


http://www.defensenews.com/article/2013 ... ft-Carrier
...the Navy could build an amphibious assault ship, similar to the Spanish Navy’s Juan Carlos, before 2019...

...the service aims to build two 30,000-ton light aircraft carriers between 2028 and 2036, the report said. The carrier is to have specifications similar to the Italian aircraft carrier Cavour, which can support about 30 aircraft...
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Unread post07 Dec 2015, 04:19

Thanks for that summary 'lookieloo' I wonder how it will pan out with South Korean Bees? And to add to the 'popcorn' stats:

A RAF website has defined maximum load thusly and this may not apply to the quote tacked on otherwise below below....
"...a maximum [F-35B] weapon payload of 6 Paveway IV, 2 AIM-120C AMRAAM, 2 AIM-132 ASRAAM and a missionised 25mm gun pod...." http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/f35join ... ighter.cfm

& IF we roughly calculate the CVF deck length available including jump then it has 850 feet available (with fifty foot at stern extra - allowing for taxi/lineup etc. so with some 'pushback' perhaps some extra footage may help in adverse conditions & of course WODplus otherwise. CVF deck: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7369/9929 ... 94ae_o.png
LIGHTNING STRIKES
ETS winter 2012_13

“...Onboard the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carriers, the aircraft would take off at its maximum weight of nearly 27 tonnes using a UK-developed ski-jump, and land either vertically or using the novel UK-developed Short Rolling Vertical Landing [SRVL) technique. This would enable the jet to land at a much higher weight than is possible in a purely vertical Landing. [2204.62lbs = 1 tonne | 59,535lbs = 27 tonnes] (F-35B is in the 60K weight class) Wing Commander Hackett explained: "SRVL is under development for the carriers. but it means the aircraft would fly in at around 60 to 70 mph and then brake to a stop on the deck,.... It will be able to land up to 1.8 tonnes (4,000lbs [3968.32072 pounds]) heavier than would otherwise be possible, meaning unexpended weapons can be brought back to the ship.”

Source: http://content.yudu.com/A219ee/ETSWin12 ... ces/20.htm
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CVF850ftPLUSforSTOskijump.jpg
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Unread post07 Dec 2015, 05:51

spazsinbad wrote:Thanks for that summary 'lookieloo' I wonder how it will pan out with South Korean Bees?
As with Izumo before its launch, western media outlets simply aren't paying any attention. Poking around with Google Translate, I get the impression that LPH-6112 may possibly be larger than Dokdo, though there may be some interplay there with Korea bidding on India's amphib tender. With a 2018 commission date, we might be seeing a launch in the 2016-2017 period, at which point we'll get a better idea of what aircraft the Koreans plan to embark. A ramp would be a dead-giveaway, but even that wouldn't necessarily mean that a Bee order is imminent. My guess is that the Bee won't pick up any more customers until after the USMC starts deploying it at sea.
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neptune

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Unread post07 Dec 2015, 06:27

spazsinbad wrote:..a maximum [F-35B] weapon payload of 6 Paveway IV, 2 AIM-120C AMRAAM, 2 AIM-132 ASRAAM and a missionised 25mm gun pod...." ....

Ok...3,000 lbs. of bombs and 1,000 lbs. of gun plus regular load of missiles...soo...regular/ basic ord. load (can't fly sans missiles... +... 4,000 lbs..

so....is the "CUTE" ski jump to give a 4klb. advantage to flat deck T.O. or less fuel use or what?? (.. and how much is the delta?????...does anyone yet know??..what's the calc??..)..besides being "CUTE"....

...give me +2klb. (ordinance or fuel margin) and I'll spot you the "cute"....

....
.....
..... It will be able to land up to ..(+4,000lbs..) ...(less the fuel margins; or fuel vs. ordinance....) heavier than would otherwise be possible, ....


....how do you "bolter" if you run out of deck (brakes)???...barrier????

..inquiring minds want to know!!
:)
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Unread post07 Dec 2015, 06:41

neptune wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:..a maximum [F-35B] weapon payload of 6 Paveway IV, 2 AIM-120C AMRAAM, 2 AIM-132 ASRAAM and a missionised 25mm gun pod...." ....

Ok...3,000 lbs. of bombs and 1,000 lbs. of gun plus regular load of missiles...soo...regular/ basic ord. load (can't fly sans missiles... +... 4,000 lbs..

so....is the "CUTE" ski jump to give a 4klb. advantage to flat deck T.O. or less fuel use or what?? (.. and how much is the delta?????...does anyone yet know??..what's the calc??..)..besides being "CUTE"....

...give me +2klb. (ordinance or fuel margin) and I'll spot you the "cute"....

....
.....
..... It will be able to land up to ..(+4,000lbs..) ...(less the fuel margins; or fuel vs. ordinance....) heavier than would otherwise be possible, ....


....how do you "bolter" if you run out of deck (brakes)???...barrier????

..inquiring minds want to know!!
:)
60 mph onto a very large deck that's going 30 mph... it's not gonna be all that intense dude.
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Unread post07 Dec 2015, 06:44

There is a long running thread about CVF SRVL 'boltering' which was agreed at the time is NOT quite the same as a conventional bolter - but details are lacking and yet to be explicated except whatever is on this thread:

F-35B UK SRVL info - Updated when new/old info available (search thread on 'bolter' for specific info)
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=20304&p=230592&hilit=SRVL#p230592

I'm not following about the 'cute' logic of your ski jump trashing. It is there for a reason well known to at least long time users of such devices - specifically the RN FAA with SHARS (and later RAF with their Harrier versions). There must be a tOnnne of info about the ski jump both in text and in specific PDFs made available online for such a purpose.

On Spazzo OneDRive page in the folder: _SRVL & Ski Jump F-35B Information PDFs check it

https://onedrive.live.com/?id=CBCD63D63 ... D6340707E6

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Unread post07 Dec 2015, 06:57

spazsinbad wrote:There is a long running thread about CVF SRVL 'boltering' which was agreed at the time is NOT quite the same as a conventional bolter - but details are lacking and yet to be explicated except whatever is on this thread:

F-35B UK SRVL info - Updated when new/old info available (search thread on 'bolter' for specific info)
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=20304&p=230592&hilit=SRVL#p230592...]


Spaz,

OK, thanks for the tip on the bolter (read later); guess I'll dig into the "CUTE" ski jump (other than maybe "shorter boats") in my spare time... :)
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Unread post07 Dec 2015, 07:00

^^^This^^^ does illustrate one advantage of fast CVLs over amphibs when it comes to F-35B ops, more wind over the deck for reduced speed differential on SRVL and increased takeoff performance.
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